---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/19/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:21 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 08/18/07 (tc1917) 2. 07:50 AM - Re: Firestar II to Firefly (robert bean) 3. 10:39 AM - Re: Firestar II to Firefly (John Cooley) 4. 02:58 PM - Re: Firestar II to Firefly (Jeremy Casey) 5. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 08/18/07 (Jeremy Casey) 6. 06:24 PM - Re: Firestar II to Firefly (John Hauck) 7. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V (Steven Green) 8. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 08/18/07 (Eugene Zimmerman) 9. 07:19 PM - Decisions decisions (David Herron) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:23 AM PST US From: "tc1917" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 08/18/07 I get a kick out of reading of those who want 'slow' stalls and really 'slow' landings. 'Cut the wings off', add vgs, do this and do that to land slow. I still hear of them landing really slow and bamm, down the nose goes and they say "oh, it must have been a shear over the hedge or something". Love it. This is being sarcastic but I had about enough of 'slow' with my little white lightning firestar. I had enough of the bouncing around like a balloon on the ocean. I wanted better speed with agility, better handling and response. That is why I went to a "slingshot". Those that have never flown one cannot understand the command control on this craft. You cannot understand that float is not always better. I like mine cause it puts down exactly where I want it. It lands exactly when I want it, cross wind or not. It lands soft, slow and precise. It climbs like a fool with a 582. cruises in the low 80's if I like it to. goes through bumps and lumps like they are not there. That is what I wanted. Wind gust to 30+? No problem. Cross winding? No problem. I love this bird. Putting a 912 on it for safety factor. Not worrying about sink or stall cause that engine most likely wont quit like a two banger. Anyway, I think putting VGS on a slingshot would be like putting wings on bowling balls; might make it land softer but wont add nothing to the control and cruise. I love the fact that I could probably land my bird in an emergency in one hundred foot or less and NOT ROLL OVER. THAT, is what I got it for. Love my Greezed Lightnin. My two cents. That is also why Jeremy Casey is building his "superfly". Ted Cowan, Alabama ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:34 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II to Firefly Hi guys, I was up last night at sundown, very still air, cool enough for a light jacket. I climbed out at 40 indicated, half flaps, let it get up to 45 before easing them off. Naturally I don't want to stall with the trucks below on I-90 but the angle of climb was just dandy and felt solid. I don't run that close in rough air but in that calm stuff you can run much closer to the theoretical. Fun too. BB do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:59 AM PST US From: "John Cooley" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar II to Firefly Hey Jeremy, Didn=92t you buy a Kolbra without an engine in the past year or so. I was looking at it also and seems that I remember that you bought it. If so, what happened to it that=92s already got you started on another project? Later, John Cooley Do not archive _____ From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Casey Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar II to Firefly Build 22' wings (ala Slinghot/Firefly), 7 ribs, bunch of bracing (ala Slingshot) really stout drag strut.. Me too - except 8 ribs and 26' 9" wings ...tip to tip. bunch of bracing (ala Slingshot) really stout drag strut..like you said. + angle bracing per Hauck. You should change your wing tips?.It would save you about 18 inches. AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION - It will cost you at LOT to go to 22' wings. Work on the tips and add a little wing, it's nice to stall at 30 -mph with VGs. They work, and that's the truth! Have flown my share of big wing homebuilts=85wanted a =93toy=94 that would handle as such=85yea stall will go up but the beating from thermals will go down thanks to the higher wing loading too=85everything is a tradeoff. Flew a clip-wing Challenger single place and compared to the 2 place long wing I flew at the time the clip-wing single was a hoot to fly and the 2 place long wing was a pig. When I run across this cage the first thing through my head was mini-Slingshot =85 Also the wings were toast already so I was starting from scratch anyway=85 Jeremy P.S. I posted a lengthy explanation of some VG experience the other day=85fully understand the benefits of VG=92s and the =93Superfly=94 will have them too=85;-) P.P.S. The RANS S7 with VG=92s indicated 26 at =93stall=94 solo=85but AS indicators are pretty inaccurate that slow=85although the GPS says it=92s real close=85then again just a puff of wind at those low numbers will affect the GPS too=85. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List"http://www.matronics.com/Na vig ator?Kolb-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 8/17/2007 5:43 PM 8/19/2007 7:27 AM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:15 PM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" <1planeguy@kilocharlie.us> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar II to Firefly Jeremy: Some day I would like to do a side by side comparison with one of these super slow flying aircraft and my non-VG equipped mkIII. Might give me some idea of what I am missing, flying around in a hawg that weighs way too much. I offerred the right reverend Pike the opportunity to rub it in, the VG thing that is, doing a side by side, but he said that would not be fair. Still waiting. I don't mind getting whupped. Promise not to whine too loud if I do. john h mkIII Are we "flying" for pinks??? ;-) When is the Kolb Homecoming? If work works out ok I just might fly up.then your on. Question.are we limiting to power off or is power on ok too? Power on I could get out and walk along beside it. (tractor engine.low thrust line will help it "hang" on prop.one of the few advantages to that engine getting the best view of the air out front.) Jeremy ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:03 PM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" <1planeguy@kilocharlie.us> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 08/18/07 Amen...brother Cowan...Amen ;-) Jeremy I get a kick out of reading of those who want 'slow' stalls and really 'slow' landings. 'Cut the wings off', add vgs, do this and do that to land slow. I still hear of them landing really slow and bamm, down the nose goes and they say "oh, it must have been a shear over the hedge or something". Love it. This is being sarcastic but I had about enough of 'slow' with my little white lightning firestar. I had enough of the bouncing around like a balloon on the ocean. I wanted better speed with agility, better handling and response. That is why I went to a "slingshot". Those that have never flown one cannot understand the command control on this craft. You cannot understand that float is not always better. I like mine cause it puts down exactly where I want it. It lands exactly when I want it, cross wind or not. It lands soft, slow and precise. It climbs like a fool with a 582. cruises in the low 80's if I like it to. goes through bumps and lumps like they are not there. That is what I wanted. Wind gust to 30+? No problem. Cross winding? No problem. I love this bird. Putting a 912 on it for safety factor. Not worrying about sink or stall cause that engine most likely wont quit like a two banger. Anyway, I think putting VGS on a slingshot would be like putting wings on bowling balls; might make it land softer but wont add nothing to the control and cruise. I love the fact that I could probably land my bird in an emergency in one hundred foot or less and NOT ROLL OVER. THAT, is what I got it for. Love my Greezed Lightnin. My two cents. That is also why Jeremy Casey is building his "superfly". Ted Cowan, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:53 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar II to Firefly Hi Jeremy: Don't know what pinks are, but I'm game. Kolb Homecoming is end of Sep. You can fly it anyway you want to. I would like to see you get it slowed down, then get out and walk along beside it. See you in London. johnh mkIII DO NOT ARCHIVE Are we "flying" for pinks??? ;-) When is the Kolb Homecoming? If work works out ok I just might fly up.then your on. Question.are we limiting to power off or is power on ok too? Power on I could get out and walk along beside it. (tractor engine.low thrust line will help it "hang" on prop.one of the few advantages to that engine getting the best view of the air out front.) Jeremy ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:31 PM PST US From: "Steven Green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V Rick, For comparison, My M3 weighs in at 596 dry with similar accessories and a 20 gal aluminum tank and a 1050 canister BRS. So you are very close it sounds like. I am always interested in what you guys are doing with the VWs. I had begun working on a reduction for a VW when I ran across a used 912 at a fair price so I stopped working on the drive. I still like the old VWs. I got my type 181 out last week for a little exercise. 45K miles, original engine that hasn't been out of the car. Not bad for a 33 year old VW. Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V That's interesting. You do have to be careful how you build a VW engine too keep it light. You also have to be careful what weights you pick for comparison. I see you figured 20-30 lbs for the redrive when my redrive is 9 lbs and all the listed engines have a slick magneto (under powered, expensive and heavy) mine doesn't. I have seen a number of weights listed for the 912 Rotax and most realistic weights are a bit higher than you indicate. Bottom line my MKIIIC with a full silver coat paint, fully enclosed, all instruments, luggage trays, a bunch of patches and radios weighed 598lbs empty weight wet (oil & unusable fuel) when I redid the motor mount a few years ago. Seems like I even forgot to remove my survival kit. This isn't light for a MKIIIC but there aren't too many 912 powered planes that are 60 lbs. lighter. In fact it seems like most are about the same weight. I don't know how Rotax figures their weights and the weight you came up with. Maybe they use some fairy dust on their scales. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V Rick, I can't find the list of engine weights I have in some remote subdirectory, so I used this list from Great Plains Aircraft. I also checked what the AeroVee folks claim. http://www.greatplainsas.com/specsfd.html http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id= 16424&category_id=268 Start with the best weight at 160lb. then add a redrive, and you're at 180 to 190 installed. Compare this to the 128 to 134lb. (Rotax Installation Manual page 7-2) for a 912 and even if you get real generous on the weight of the sump tank and lines you're still at a least difference of 40lb. and a max of 60. Rick On 8/17/07, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: Rick I'm just curious how you figure that a VW is 60 Lbs. heaver than a 912? My VW with is maybe 10lbs more. Now I took steps to save weight any where I could but I didn't cut 50 lbs off. If your figuring the stock generator and fan into this weight maybe. Also I had my share of engine problems in my old beetle and bus but never had a valve brakeage problem. They are a bit sensitive to valve adjustments and I just don't like adjusting them so I installed hydraulic lifters in my engine. Also there isn't much stock VW about the engines they build today. You do have to use a bit of common sense about sitting on the ground with the engine running and no cooling air flowing over the engine. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V Ron, Where the 912 has an advantage over the VW is weight, about 60 lb. worth. Those Austrian engineers went to great lengths to keep the engine as light as possible. And if your talking about the 912S your giving up 20 HP, too. I like VW's a lot and as a child of the 60's I've owned my share. I even owned a "Thing", and the Vanagon is on my favorite vehicle list since my son looped one on Hwy 80 with me sleeping in the back, but I've walked into VW parts depts carrying the latest broken bit and singing the "Volkswagen, does it again" commercial jingle too many times. Maybe all the development work has solved some of the problems, but I've lost the #3 exhaust valve head on type 1, type 3, and type 4 engines and they don't run worth a darn on three cylinders. Rick http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com when you live at the airport. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:33 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 08/18/07 The guy with the best plane is the guy who is happy with the one he's got. If you don't believe me ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ask John. :-) Gene On Aug 19, 2007, at 5:59 PM, Jeremy Casey wrote: > <1planeguy@kilocharlie.us> > > > Amen...brother Cowan...Amen ;-) > Jeremy > > > > > I get a kick out of reading of those who want 'slow' stalls and really > 'slow' landings. 'Cut the wings off', add vgs, do this and do that to > land > slow. I still hear of them landing really slow and bamm, down the > nose > goes > and they say "oh, it must have been a shear over the hedge or > something". > Love it. This is being sarcastic but I had about enough of 'slow' > with > my > little white lightning firestar. I had enough of the bouncing around > like a > balloon on the ocean. I wanted better speed with agility, better > handling > and response. That is why I went to a "slingshot". Those that have > never > flown one cannot understand the command control on this craft. You > cannot > understand that float is not always better. I like mine cause it puts > down > exactly where I want it. It lands exactly when I want it, cross > wind or > > not. It lands soft, slow and precise. It climbs like a fool with a > 582. > cruises in the low 80's if I like it to. goes through bumps and lumps > like > they are not there. That is what I wanted. Wind gust to 30+? No > problem. > Cross winding? No problem. I love this bird. Putting a 912 on it > for > safety factor. Not worrying about sink or stall cause that engine > most > likely wont quit like a two banger. Anyway, I think putting VGS on a > slingshot would be like putting wings on bowling balls; might make it > land > softer but wont add nothing to the control and cruise. I love the > fact > that > I could probably land my bird in an emergency in one hundred foot or > less > and NOT ROLL OVER. THAT, is what I got it for. Love my Greezed > Lightnin. > My two cents. That is also why Jeremy Casey is building his > "superfly". > > Ted Cowan, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:18 PM PST US From: David Herron Subject: Kolb-List: Decisions decisions Hum, Short wing, long wing... Single place, two place... 2 stroke, 4 stroke/turbo... My plane has 36' wings, weighs 240 lbs and gets kicked in turbulence, but can be fun. Just thinking about abandoning my little joy to join your world, because Kolb offers folding wings and more power. I feel I need floats for the rugged terrain I have moved to and the Kolb can do both tose things better. What is the glide ratio like in the traditional FS II or Twinstar, with standard length wings? I am thinking I should accept a few extra bumps and slow roll for a few extra minutes of descent. The guys with the snappy performance had me leaning that way, until I looked out the window. As for engine choice, I guess that is a personal value judgment. Reliability is number one here. Back when I had some farm fields it was not unimportant just not as imperative. Several people on this list have been very helpful as I bite into this possible shift in plane. drh CYEL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.