---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/31/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:21 AM - Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (Dave Bigelow) 2. 05:24 AM - Re: landing gear legs (John Hauck) 3. 05:25 AM - Re: landing gear legs (Rex Rodebush) 4. 08:05 AM - Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. (N27SB@aol.com) 5. 08:31 AM - Re: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)) 6. 09:13 AM - Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (David Lucas) 7. 09:34 AM - Re: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. (John Hauck) 8. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (Larry Cottrell) 9. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (John Hauck) 10. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (Richard Pike) 11. 10:59 AM - Re: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. (N27SB@aol.com) 12. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (John Hauck) 13. 11:35 AM - Re: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. (John Hauck) 14. 11:41 AM - Re: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. (N27SB@aol.com) 15. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (John Hauck) 16. 01:22 PM - Re: Re: Things to see from a Kolb in the air (Russ Kinne) 17. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Things to see from a Kolb in the air (John Hauck) 18. 03:28 PM - Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (George Alexander) 19. 04:01 PM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (John Hauck) 20. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult (Richard Pike) 21. 09:07 PM - 912 Mandatory Service Bulletin (Richard Girard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:48 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult From: "Dave Bigelow" > Pueo Field has been carved out of a sloping forest 2,700 ft. up the side of Haleakala (10,000 ft.). It uses the "Air America" lay out... take-off downhill (runway 29), land uphill (runway 11). I've paced out 350 ft. of lumpy hillside runway, 50ft. wide at the bottom down to 30 ft. at the top. The trees that surround it are about 40 ft tall, but no worries, this is Maui... so come the rainy season and with a little fertilizer and we'll have 'em up to the regulation "50 foot obstacle at end of runway" faster than you can spell FAA... > Henry, sure enjoyed the account of your Pueo Field aventure. I'd suggest you find a more forgiving strip to build your proficiency in the Firefly. You stand a good chance of bending your ship operating out of Pueo Field unless you are well practiced in all aspects of flying your new ship. I also operate from a very short mountain strip on the Big Island where I take off down hill and land up hill. I trailered the Firestar to the Waimea airport and did a lot of pattern work before I attempted to fly from my pasture strip. Even after that, it still is pretty exciting and leaves no room for error. How about the old Puu Nene strip? Can you trailer down there and spend a couple of sessions practicing? -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131976#131976 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:15 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: landing gear legs > Sometime ago, it was mentioned on the Kolb list that Kolb sold a spring > steel gear leg. Kolb have not answered my inquiry. Could someone give > me more information about it. Try giving Travis a call at 606-862-9692. Sometimes email traffic may get lost in the shuffle. Telephone works great. Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:27 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: landing gear legs From: "Rex Rodebush" Call Travis at TNK. I'm sure he can help you. Kolb had two steel designs; a very soft "springy" gear and a more firm one. I think the latter is heat treated to a higher hardness as I used up several cobalt drills to mount them. I don't think they are offering the "springy" ones anymore but Travis can tell you for sure. As far as I know these are for the Mark III only. Rex Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131991#131991 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:03 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:25:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. john h mkIII John, Don't forget about the Early Bird Custom Air Cookout. It would be helpful if we had a rough idea of whom will be in early. Steve http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:57 AM PST US From: "Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. Steve I will be there. Cant wait. Travis @ Kolb ----- Original Message ----- From: N27SB@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:04 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:25:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. john h mkIII John, Don't forget about the Early Bird Custom Air Cookout. It would be helpful if we had a rough idea of whom will be in early. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:42 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult From: "David Lucas" Hello Henry, Way back in the dim distant past (circa 1970s) I used to do a lot of jungle flying in Papua New Guinea (PNG) including some into short / steep mountain strips, some up to 15% slope. This was in C 206s etc but the info can be adapted to Kolbs Im sure. First thing I recall is that all your normal cues for situation awareness, perspective and judgement are all different. The horizon is not a distant flattish line with surrounding countryside basically flat or gentle undulations. Instead its replaced by slopes and curves and contours and valleys etc. Really upsets the judgement. I think you have found that out already, having to do two go-rounds from your approach attempts, and congratulations for not pressing on and landing elsewhere. Good airmanship ! When you are on your normal descent profile to a standard level-ish strip you have a picture in your mind of how the perspective of the strip should look and you make your corrections against this datum. Now if you tip up the ground to a significant up-slope, such as your strip, the natural tendency is maintain that same view out the window. The only way this can be done is if your approach is flatter by the same amount that the strip is steep. This is courting trouble, because whilst things look normal you tend to have other parameters normal too, like power setting (Im not sure if you use some power on the approach or not) But youll end up flying more or less level (because it looks right), but with reduced power (cause if feels right) as if youre descending (but your not), so the speed will drop off quickly and youre setting yourself up for a stall-spin accident. I think thats how you got to this statement; "The first two attempts are too low... so low that the view of the runway disappears behind the trees" What you should see is an Im Too High / Space Shuttle Approach perspective . . . but your not because the view will be your normal descent profile plus the steep strip profile. The two added together give this result. Its really deceptive until you get used to it. We had to be checked into these sort of strips at least 5 take off and landings with a check pilot before released to do it yourself. Your aiming point should be the same, as I recall, so Im not sure what Larry ment with his advice to keep your eyes further up the runway. You still have to touch down at the start of the strip so thats what youve got to keep your eye on. Perhaps Larry could elucidate on that statement. Perhaps he ment the flare manoeuvre where you definitely have to be aware of the extra pitch up required which would require looking further up the strip (see next paragraph), but at that point, not during the pre-flare approach. Then in the flare instead of just flaring to a level attitude you have to continue to pitch up to a slight climb equivalent to the strip slope, otherwise your touch-down will be (ahem) positive. This extra flaring in turn takes more energy requiring either a little power instead of closing the throttle or extra airspeed to store the required energy for the manoeuvre. After touchdown you then have to increase power, up to full throttle, just to get up to the top of the strip. When you park, if you havent got a level place, park sideways to the slope. There are several wrecks of the side of PNG airstrips that prove the undeniable fact; Gravity will always win ! One example being a Royal Australian Air Force De Havilland Caribou that was to costly to recover after the said event, so they stripped it of all useful bits and left it to the locals. Some local natives moved in to their new house. Much better that mud huts ! Roomier too ! So theres a few thoughts from the dim distant past. Hope its of some use. Is there anywhere you can get some practice on a longer, but still sloped strip without too many obstacles to worry about before you try yours ? By the way, loved the analogy to Coyotes and (obviously) Road Runner. Ive already got a picture of you in my minds eye about to launch off :-) Have Fun & Fly Safe ! David. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132047#132047 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:08 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. Steve: Count on me. I'll get there Wed night or Thu noon. Depends on when you are going to cook and chow down. john h mkIII DO NOT ARCHIVE John, Don't forget about the Early Bird Custom Air Cookout. It would be helpful if we had a rough idea of whom will be in early. Steve ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:21 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult Your aiming point should be the same, as I recall, so I?Tm not sure what Larry ment with his advice to keep your eyes further up the runway. You still have to touch down at the start of the strip so that?Ts what you?Tve got to keep your eye on. Perhaps Larry could elucidate on that statement. Perhaps he ment the flare manoeuvre where you definitely have to be aware of the extra pitch up required which would require looking further up the strip (see next paragraph), but at that point, not during the pre-flare approach. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am afraid its all guesswork to those who cannot see just what the strip looks like on the ground. However my statement was intended to point out that looking at the ground with your direct straight on vision will not give you the depth perception that using your peripheral vision will. You will most always flare too soon and then things will get a lot more exciting quickly. None of us can tell him the perfect fool proof way to land in that situation, he is going to have to find it for himself. These are all merely suggestion and should be ignored if they don't fit the situation. Perhaps I was foolish to have made any suggestion at all. Larry C ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:07 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult None of us can tell him the perfect fool proof way to land in that > situation, he is going to have to find it for himself. > Larry C Hi Larry: I'll buy that. Landing a 206 in New Guinea probably does not compare with a FF in Hawaii, or any other place. I remember some one getting wrapped around the axle because us Kolb pilots did not buy his 747 style approach in a FS. There comes a time when Kolbs and big ass airplanes have very little in common. If you have been flying big airplanes most of your flying career, this will be hard to understand. If you have been flying Kolbs most of your flying career, it is much easier to understand and accept. To land in that little up hill strip the first time, I think I would prepare something like this. Find me a nice dirt road. Mark it off same usable length as the mountain strip. Whether it is up hill, down hill, or level, would not matter. Length is what matters. Fly that landing until I could pin it every time with room to spare. Then tackle the mountain strip. Unless the air was really turbulent, or had a tailwind, should be a piece of cake, especially landing uphill. The way all Kolbs react to elevator input, overcoming the uphill strip should be pretty easy. However, anytime we put tall trees at the end of the strip, plus trees on the approach end, it tends to intimidate me. Easy to try and rush things. Sometimes, most of the time, Kolbs and other airplanes, do not want to be rushed. ;-) Anyhow, I think that is the way I would approach it, if I "had" to land in that strip. If I did not have to land in that strip, I'd find me another home. I have been flying out of a 750' strip with poor approach and departure for 23 years. Actually, I have about 600' useable. Any shorter than that and I would be looking for another home. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:18 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult Just curious - I assume you have landed the MKIII or other light Kolbs on steep uphill slopes? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) DNA ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult > > None of us can tell him the perfect fool proof way to land in that >> situation, he is going to have to find it for himself. > Larry C > > > Hi Larry: > > I'll buy that. > > Landing a 206 in New Guinea probably does not compare with a FF in Hawaii, > or any other place. > > I remember some one getting wrapped around the axle because us Kolb pilots > did not buy his 747 style approach in a FS. There comes a time when Kolbs > and big ass airplanes have very little in common. If you have been flying > big airplanes most of your flying career, this will be hard to understand. > If you have been flying Kolbs most of your flying career, it is much > easier to understand and accept. > > To land in that little up hill strip the first time, I think I would > prepare something like this. Find me a nice dirt road. Mark it off same > usable length as the mountain strip. Whether it is up hill, down hill, or > level, would not matter. Length is what matters. Fly that landing until > I could pin it every time with room to spare. Then tackle the mountain > strip. Unless the air was really turbulent, or had a tailwind, should be a > piece of cake, especially landing uphill. The way all Kolbs react to > elevator input, overcoming the uphill strip should be pretty easy. > However, anytime we put tall trees at the end of the strip, plus trees on > the approach end, it tends to intimidate me. Easy to try and rush things. > Sometimes, most of the time, Kolbs and other airplanes, do not want to be > rushed. ;-) > > Anyhow, I think that is the way I would approach it, if I "had" to land in > that strip. If I did not have to land in that strip, I'd find me another > home. > > I have been flying out of a 750' strip with poor approach and departure > for 23 years. Actually, I have about 600' useable. Any shorter than that > and I would be looking for another home. > > Take care, > > john h > mkIII > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:02 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. John, We are planning to do the Cookout Thur but if you show on Wed I will cook for you. Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:39 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult > Just curious - I assume you have landed the MKIII or other light Kolbs on > steep uphill slopes? > > Richard Pike Richard P: Not sure if the above is addressed to me or not. Your comment didn't indicate. If it is, yes I have landed on some extremely steep uphill airstrips. Also landed on some extremely steep downhill slopes. One of the best uphill slopes is landing to the west at Homer Kolb's strip. I'll dig out some photos, if I can find them, that show this end of the strip. The difficult part of that approach is losing a lot of altitude over the trees and down over the lake. Another way to do it is fly between the house and the trees, turn right and west to land up slope. Those that have flown Homer's airstrip will be very familiar with what I am trying to describe here. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:02 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. Steve B: What time Thu? Thanks for offering to cook for me. ;-) Take care, john h mkIII DO NOT ARCHIVE We are planning to do the Cookout Thur but if you show on Wed I will cook for you. Steve ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:07 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ready for the Kolb Homecoming in a month. Up in the Air, so to speak, Early enough for the Kolb crew to be there and late enough for the Earlybirds to stumble in. Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult >> Just curious - I assume you have landed the MKIII or other light Kolbs on >> steep uphill slopes? >> >> Richard Pike Richard P: Forgot about Larry C's airstrip. We do a lot of upslope and downslope take offs and landings on the south end of his strip by the house. Here is a photo I like of one landing there. John Williamson took these. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:10 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Things to see from a Kolb in the air Kolbs can't outrun skeeters and black flies. Nor white-sox either. But a Blackbird sure can! BTW caribou sometimes come up on glaciers, apparently to avoid flies -- seems to work do not archive > > > On Aug 30, 2007, at 2:15 PM, John Hauck wrote: > >> >> Actually, the caribou, me, and the mkIII were all running from the >> skeeters > > Hauck running from them skeeters ? > > http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/photos/mosquito2.jpg > > > Hauck running from them black flys ? > > http://users.cihost.com/ata/aircraft/sr711.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:39 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Things to see from a Kolb in the air > BTW caribou sometimes come up on glaciers, apparently to avoid flies > -- seems to work Russ K: The water is shallow off shore between Kaktovik (Barter Island) and Deadhorse. The carribou will wade out a couple miles to the sand bar/barrier islands to escape the bugs. I have seen them crowd onto patches of snow and large snow fields to escape them also. john h mkIII DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult From: "George Alexander" Don't have the slope in the picture, but this is what John means "...fly between the house and the trees, turn right and west...." In this picture, he was getting ready to roll out of the turn (in Homer's Firestar). Taken at the gathering at Homer's place on June 16, 2007. More to come..... John Hauck wrote: > > > One of the best uphill slopes is landing to the west at Homer Kolb's strip. > I'll dig out some photos, if I can find them, that show this end of the > strip. The difficult part of that approach is losing a lot of altitude over > the trees and down over the lake. Another way to do it is fly between the > house and the trees, turn right and west to land up slope. > > -------- George Alexander http://gtalexander.home.att.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132139#132139 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolb_150_medium_973.jpg ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:38 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult > Don't have the slope in the picture, but this is what John means "...fly between the house and the trees, turn right and west...." In this picture, he was getting ready to roll out of the turn (in Homer's Firestar). > > Taken at the gathering at Homer's place on June 16, 2007. More to > come..... Thanks, George A: Not an easy maneuver coming through there when the wind is blowing a pretty good clip. If you can get the airplane down pretty close to the pond, the hill is so steep you can slow right down and turn right to go to the hanger. I don't know what Richard P was scratching for, unless he thought I was running my mouth without having experienced what I was talking about. I try not to do that. Reserve the BS for the experts. ;-) Richard has an intimidating strip at his place. I have flown in and out of it in his mkIII with him flying, but I have not actually shot a landing or done a T/O from there. It is like an obstacle course, over the high tension transmission lines and towers, then across the fence, then up the hill until you hit the tree and stop. Just what Kolbs are designed and built for. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:34 PM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult I was just surprised that in your earlier post today to Larry C, you did not mention the need to possibly maintain or add some throttle to "fly uphill" at touchdown. Having seen more than one U/L pilot make an approach to some of our various local uphill strips with the throttle closed, and then not have enough energy or thrust to be able to match the slope angle just prior to flare, and with a resulting "extra-firm" arrival, I expected you to bring that out. The rest of your instructions were complete and detailed, so it just struck me as odd that you didn't mention that. Seemed out of character for you, so I was trying to figure out why. No big deal. There is a local guy named Bill Williams that lives about 15 miles north of here, and his strip is only about 250' long, but is at almost a 30 degree angle. Talk about a big dose of throttle on short final... Wow. I need to make a video. PS: I like the part about "until you hit the tree and stop." So far, I haven't had to do that. So far... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acme Gravity Catapult > I don't know what Richard P was scratching for, unless he thought I was > running my mouth without having experienced what I was talking about. I > try not to do that. Reserve the BS for the experts. ;-) > > Richard has an intimidating strip at his place. I have flown in and out > of it in his mkIII with him flying, but I have not actually shot a landing > or done a T/O from there. It is like an obstacle course, over the high > tension transmission lines and towers, then across the fence, then up the > hill until you hit the tree and stop. Just what Kolbs are designed and > built for. > > john h > mkIII > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:23 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: 912 Mandatory Service Bulletin Got a notice of this from the Rotax owners site a few minutes ago. Notice it effects a very narrow range of engine serial numbers and manufacturing dates. http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/serviceb/SB-912-055.pdf Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.