Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:00 AM - Re: New guy with questions (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:07 AM - Re: Re: New guy with questions (flymichigan@comcast.net)
3. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: New guy with questions (flymichigan@comcast.net)
4. 05:15 AM - Re: heatin & beatin (Thom Riddle)
5. 05:23 AM - Re: Re: New guy with questions (Richard Girard)
6. 05:31 AM - Re: Re: New guy with questions (Richard Girard)
7. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (robert bean)
8. 05:46 AM - IMPORTANT MESSAGE (Richard Girard)
9. 05:53 AM - Re: Re: New guy with questions (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
10. 06:20 AM - Re: IMPORTANT MESSAGE (JR)
11. 06:45 AM - Re: IMPORTANT MESSAGE (Richard Girard)
12. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (Jack B. Hart)
13. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (Russ Kinne)
14. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: New guy with questions (herbgh@juno.com)
15. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Getting through ELSA (Vic Peters)
16. 08:48 AM - Re: Did It Again. (lucien)
17. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (Richard Pike)
18. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (Russ Kinne)
19. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (David Key)
20. 09:50 AM - Re: Did It Again. (lucien)
21. 10:03 AM - Re: Did It Again. (lucien)
22. 10:05 AM - Kolb homecoming (tc1917)
23. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (Richard Pike)
24. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Did It Again. (Jack B. Hart)
25. 07:02 PM - Exchanging Airplanes (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
26. 08:43 PM - Re: Getting through ELSA (Jim ODay)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
Rick and Lucien,
Warning - Long Post.
Most of the posts by Rick are well thought out and I tend to agree with his conclusions/interpretations
most of the time. However, on this one, I truly believe
Lucien is correct. If Rick's interpretation was correct then no one could buy
a completed (or nearly so) pile of parts that has never been registered, then
do the last few things to make it flyable and then get the E-A/B A/W certificate,
because the guy who bought the un-registered vehicle (not yet an airplane)
did not do 51% of the work.
How many Kolbers have done something like this, i.e. bought someone else's partially
finished kit and did less than 51% of the work and registered it as E-A/B?
My guess is a lot have done this. If this were not the case there would be
zero market for partially completed kits, which of course is not the case. The
person who registers the aircraft as E-A/B does not have to be the builder. The
person applying for the repairman certificate for this particular E-A/B does
have to be the one or primary builder, if done by a group.
Another thing to remember/note. A flying vehicle (fat or skinny ul) that has never
been registered is not an aircraft (by FAA's definition) until it is registered
with the FAA and issued an A/W certificate of some kind. The fact that it
has been flying (perhaps illegally, perhaps under the UL trainer exemption,
perhaps as a legal UL) for years has nothing to do with whether it qualifies as
a 51% aircraft when it is eventually registered. The option to register it and
have its A/W certificate issued as an E-LSA expires next January. There is
no time limit or expiration date for registering a qualifying 51% amateur built
aircraft as such. Anyone flying this machine after that date if it is not registered
with the FAA and/or not certificated in some way by the FAA, is operating
illegally. Actually operating it today unless it is a legal UL or under the
training exemption is illegal, as it always has been. The fact that a flying
machine has been operated/flown illegally at any time in its past does not disqualify
it for registration and certification as an E-A/B at some future date
if it qualifies.
One more thing: What a particular person at a particular FSDO says is virtually
meaningless unless that person is the one who is doing the certification on the
aircraft in question. Ignorance in the FSDOs is abundant, especially in the
LSA area.
Lets not forget that E-A/B has not changed in any significant way in recent years.
The E-LSA business is now a limited time only OPTION for those that can meet
the requirements but not an obligation on the part of the owner of the flying
machine in question. One might think of it as a limited time amnesty opportunity.
The existence of this limited time only E-LSA option has nothing at all
to do with the ongoing E-A/B rules. One has nothing to do with the other.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132465#132465
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
My point was that SOMEBODY has to build it as a educational or recreational
activity. The regs do not say that YOU have to be the one to build it, unless
you are wanting the repairman's cert. Buying someone else's project does not
mean that you hired it built.
I agree with you that you have to demonstrate that someone built at least 51% as
a recreational or educational activity.
Bryan Dever
You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why
> you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit list.
> If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list at
> all?
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: heatin & beatin |
Kolbers,
I wish to publicly thank my good friend, Bob Bean, for his magnanimous help with
the FS cage repairs. I'll be buying him beer for the rest of his/my life...
sort of an annuity on his labor investment.
Still a lot of work yet to be done but something this non-welder(me) can probably
accomplish.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132469#132469
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
Since we're talking abstract scenarios, how about the guy who built an RV
and tried to get it classified as a motor glider. He thought it was a great
way to get around having to worry about a medical and still be able to fly
fast. The RV flew, his hair brained idea, didn't.
Show me the rule there. The RV had a motor, and every landing would have
involved gliding. Why didn't he get the classification he wanted?
On the theoretical side........
I set up the Aeronautical Education Foundation. I'm the only paid employee,
but I never touch the aircraft. I staff it with high school kids who are all
unpaid interns. Can I pump out Cessna 150 clones and sell them to people
ready to fly, without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license
an E-AB? Why not?
I'm a mad scientist and I figure out how to implant the design knowledge of
Burt Rutan and the airplane building skills of Tony Bingelis into
chimpanzees. The high school kids wised up and I had to restaff the
foundation. Now can I build 150 clones and sell them to people ready to fly,
without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an E-AB? Why
not?
We could spend all day dreaming up far fetched ideas to try and beat the
system, like talking heads on the noise trying to justify torturing
detainees.
Say, isn't this how ultalights got fat, grew an extra seat and the LSA rules
came about?
Rick
On 9/3/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I were buying it, I'd ask your widow to get the experimental
> certificate, then I'd buy it. The other option would be to take off the
> covering and redo it, so I'd have a builder's log.
> Look at it another way. You can go out and buy a Quicksilver kit, assemble
> it all yourself and the FAA would not give you an E-AB experimental
> certificate. You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why
> you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit list.
> If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list at
> all?
>
> Rick
>
> On 9/2/07, flymichigan@comcast.net <flymichigan@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> > Suppose I build a Kolb from a kit. It is complete, but I have not
> > registered it yet, or gotten an air worthiness cert. Then I get hit by a
> > bus and die. Is it your opinion that the plane can never be
> > registered?? Someone buying the plane did not hire it built. They bought
a
> > plane that was built for recreational purposes.
> >
> > Bryan Dever
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rick Girard
> "Ya'll drop on in"
> takes on a whole new meaning
> when you live at the airport.
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
Bryan, We're not talking about taking over projects, that's done all the
time. We're talking about buying a used, previously flying, unregistered
aircraft and the buyer being allowed to get an E-AB certificate for it.
Rick
On 9/3/07, flymichigan@comcast.net <flymichigan@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> My point was that SOMEBODY has to build it as a educational or
> recreational
> activity. The regs do not say that YOU have to be the one to build it,
> unless
> you are wanting the repairman's cert. Buying someone else's project does
> not
> mean that you hired it built.
>
> I agree with you that you have to demonstrate that someone built at least
> 51% as
> a recreational or educational activity.
>
> Bryan Dever
>
> You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why
> > you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit list.
> > If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list
> at
> > all?
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
Radios are dandy but keep in mind that, as yet, uncontrolled airports
do not require one.
Around here there is only one tower and no one I know wants to go there.
At a fly in breakfast you will find lots of J3s, Aeroncas etc, that
have no radio and no one expects
them to have one. If you follow the honorable traditions of keeping
your eyes looking
out the window and not on some silly gages and follow proper pattern
procedure
there will not be any problems. The only near misses (what a
contradictory expression!)
I've ever experienced were at controlled airports. -one from
following a controller's advice.
Also regarding the licensing of a slightly used homebuilt: I'm quite
sure that if you picked
up an old rat, stripped the rags off it, fixed all the questionable
mechanics, primed
the tubes and took a couple pix before recovering it, you would have
no problem
getting your EAB.
BB
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | IMPORTANT MESSAGE |
I am Mr. Narimba Baliushima. My uncle, the Air Minister of Nigeria, recently
died and left a warehouse full of Mig 21's. I was referred to the fine
people on the Kolb Forum for their good moral fiber and upstanding
character. My brother, Nimbwitsu, and I need help in recovering the
investment of the Nigerian people. For only three payments of $29.95. plus
shipping and handling, we will send you a Mig and a kit on how to license it
as an Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft. Please send your VISA card number
and authenticity code along with your choice of desert or jungle camouflage
paint scheme........................
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
Look out for Bus on road
Couldn't resist
Ellery In Maine
do not archive
**************************************
all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: IMPORTANT MESSAGE |
HaHaHa... I get these all the time, but you put an amusing twist to it !
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: IMPORTANT MESSAGE
I am Mr. Narimba Baliushima. My uncle, the Air Minister of Nigeria,
recently died and left a warehouse full of Mig 21's. I was referred to
the fine people on the Kolb Forum for their good moral fiber and
upstanding character. My brother, Nimbwitsu, and I need help in
recovering the investment of the Nigerian people. For only three
payments of $29.95. plus shipping and handling, we will send you a Mig
and a kit on how to license it as an Experimental Amateur-Built
aircraft. Please send your VISA card number and authenticity code along
with your choice of desert or jungle camouflage paint
scheme........................
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
9/1/2007 4:20 PM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: IMPORTANT MESSAGE |
JR, As my friend Scotty taught me 30 odd years ago, and they were some very
odd years, "You might as well laugh, it ain't getting any better."
Rick
On 9/3/07, JR <jrsmith2@triad.rr.com> wrote:
>
> HaHaHa... I get these all the time, but you put an amusing twist to it !
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Richard Girard <jindoguy@gmail.com>
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, September 03, 2007 8:46 AM
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: IMPORTANT MESSAGE
>
> I am Mr. Narimba Baliushima. My uncle, the Air Minister of Nigeria,
> recently died and left a warehouse full of Mig 21's. I was referred to the
> fine people on the Kolb Forum for their good moral fiber and upstanding
> character. My brother, Nimbwitsu, and I need help in recovering the
> investment of the Nigerian people. For only three payments of $29.95. plus
> shipping and handling, we will send you a Mig and a kit on how to license it
> as an Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft. Please send your VISA card number
> and authenticity code along with your choice of desert or jungle camouflage
> paint scheme........................
>
> --
> Rick Girard
> "Ya'll drop on in"
> takes on a whole new meaning
> when you live at the airport.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
At 10:32 PM 9/2/07 -0500, you wrote:
>
>You land on a taxiway in Dallas Tx and you're going to have a lot of
>explaining to do and you probably wont have your license after a stunt like
>that.
>
David,
When I fly into a controlled air space airport, I have to get permission. I
have found that they usually want some ultralight vehicles on display. If I
am told to stay away, I do. I call a day before the fly-in. Then I call
again just before departing for the fly-in. We discuss how I am to approach
the airport, and how they will pick me up. Often they have me circle a
landmark on the edge of the airport at a given altitude. One time the
controller called me every fifteen minutes and described land features on
the flight path and I could click the mic button to indicated yes or no, so
he could determine my progress. They have been very courteous and I follow
the controller's instructions for landing and taxiing. I explain that if
there is much surface wind, I need to pay attention to the FireFly and
not be fiddling with the radio. When I leave I cell phone call or buddy with
someone else that is leaving who has a radio.
Using the radio to break into to a seemingly continuous landing queue would
be illegal. As an ultralight vehicle, the only thing with more priority is
an ultralight vehicle glider. And, since I have an ultralight vehicle, I do
not have a license to take away. The FAA has determined that the FireFly is
not an aircraft, so I believe it is the best policy to be as unobtrusive as
possible. I have never had a complaint about landing on a taxiway. If you
use the taxiway and approach in a tight pattern rotation on the same side as
the taxiway from the main runway, it is impossible to be responsible for a
runway incursion. If there is a cross wind, you do have to be careful of
wing tip and propeller wash from the main runway. But if you land on the
very end of the parallel taxiway, this is minimized.
The nice thing about a Kolb is that it is very easy to pick up other traffic
in front and to the sides, up and down. But I do get nervous about my back
when close to an airport. When flying into a non-tower airport, I use my
radio to announce my intentions, but as most of you know that is no
guarantee that everyone else is using or listening to a radio. There are
lots of GA aircraft flying without radios and a few others that do not
bother to use them in uncontrolled airspace. I remember how confined the
view was from the cockpit of Cessna or Cherokee. It would be very easy to
come up from behind on a landing approach and to be unable to see a FireFly.
At altitude in cruise the forward view is much better. On the way at 1,500
feet agl to and from the fly-in, GA aircraft caught up and passed by me.
One pilot waggled the wings as if to say "hello" or maybe it was "that crazy
idiot". I like to think the former. I felt sorry for them in that they had
to fly inside on such a beautiful day and miss so much of the view.
I am rambling.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
In re using radios -- of course they're not necessary, and the vast
majority of US airports don't have or require them . But if you have
one in your aircraft by all means keep it on and tuned to UNICOM or
the common advisory freq. This will keep things SAFER. You might
miss hearing something like "Gulfstream making a straight-in for
runway XX with both engines out" -- and you would like to know that.
Doesn't take any effort to LISTEN to what everyone else is doing.
Used to have permission to land on the grass area of our paved, tower-
controlled airport, as I could simply land, turn 90* and taxi to my
tiedown, without adding to the traffic flow at all.. All it took was
asking tower and the airport mgr. He's a self-important type, but
when it turned out I had more taildragger time than he had total
time, he gave his permission!
Point is, if you ask, most any reasonable request is usually granted.
Better than doing non-standard and unexpected maneuvers. And tower or
not, listen to the other guys flying with you.
Don't they say, "forewarned is forearmed"?
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: New guy with questions |
Best way to beat the system with a fat ul is to install a fake BRS Law
abiding, God fearing ,government despising ,honest and principiled
...Herb
do not archive
On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 07:23:17 -0500 "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
writes:
Since we're talking abstract scenarios, how about the guy who built an RV
and tried to get it classified as a motor glider. He thought it was a
great way to get around having to worry about a medical and still be able
to fly fast. The RV flew, his hair brained idea, didn't.
Show me the rule there. The RV had a motor, and every landing would have
involved gliding. Why didn't he get the classification he wanted?
On the theoretical side........
I set up the Aeronautical Education Foundation. I'm the only paid
employee, but I never touch the aircraft. I staff it with high school
kids who are all unpaid interns. Can I pump out Cessna 150 clones and
sell them to people ready to fly, without any kind of paperwork except a
kit on how to license an E-AB? Why not?
I'm a mad scientist and I figure out how to implant the design knowledge
of Burt Rutan and the airplane building skills of Tony Bingelis into
chimpanzees. The high school kids wised up and I had to restaff the
foundation. Now can I build 150 clones and sell them to people ready to
fly, without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an
E-AB? Why not?
We could spend all day dreaming up far fetched ideas to try and beat the
system, like talking heads on the noise trying to justify torturing
detainees.
Say, isn't this how ultalights got fat, grew an extra seat and the LSA
rules came about?
Rick
On 9/3/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were buying it, I'd ask your widow to get the experimental
certificate, then I'd buy it. The other option would be to take off the
covering and redo it, so I'd have a builder's log.
Look at it another way. You can go out and buy a Quicksilver kit,
assemble it all yourself and the FAA would not give you an E-AB
experimental certificate. You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as
51%. That's why you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit
list.
If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list at
all?
Rick
On 9/2/07, flymichigan@comcast.net <flymichigan@comcast.net> wrote:
Rick,
Suppose I build a Kolb from a kit. It is complete, but I have not
registered it yet, or gotten an air worthiness cert. Then I get hit by a
bus and die. Is it your opinion that the plane can never be registered??
Someone buying the plane did not hire it built. They bought a plane
that was built for recreational purposes.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Getting through ELSA |
Jim, sounds like you slid through the process petty slick.
I think some luck was also involved.
I have both EAA reg kits, EAB & ELSA.
The ELSA I have says to enter your name as manufacturer if you built it.
Otherwise use KOLB.
Did you build it?
Either way good on you.!
No wonder we're all confused.
Vic, do not archive
Xtra 912
ready for a test flight in a couple days.
Currently registered as a ul trainer.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
planecrazzzy wrote:
> Two questions....
>
> 1. Why couldn't you use the runnway ???
>
> 2. Is it "legal" to land on a taxi way.....
>
> I don't understand why you couldn't enter the pattern ,
>
> I know you have a radio......?
>
>
> Gotta Fly...
> Mike & "Jaz" in MN
> .
> .
> .
Ust my .02,
I've flown various types of UL's and fat UL's at uncontrolled fields and now fly
my firestar II out of a class D airport. What I've found to be good practices:
- a generally accepted pattern procedure for ultralights is a pattern in the same
direction as the normal one but fly inside and below it. This way you're visible
to the other planes and you can sequence in with them in the normal way
by simply adjusting how high and far out from the runway you are.
- use the active runway at all times. Don't use the taxiway at all unless it's
just totally deserted and no one is around ;). The other guys will simply freak
out if you land on anything other than the runway they're using...
- wake turbulence is a huge deal in an ultralight. Even a C150's wake can put a
UL into the dirt. Extend your downwind a bit if someone's landing. This will
piss some guys off a little since you're plugging up the works, but if you dump
it on short final due to the wake they'll be a lot madder.
- go ahead and use a radio and learn the normal comm procedures. More than anything
this will keep tempers down and fascination with your plane up.
I've never flown an ultralight into a controlled field but I can almost not imagine
not using one if I did even with permission. If you're in contact with the
controller in the usual way the entry should be a non-event.
LS
-
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132502#132502
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
A couple comments from a retired controller -
If you are flying out of a controlled field and you are concerned about wake
turbulence - ask for a short approach and a long landing. That way you will
be above wake turbulence from whoever else is landing. Of course, it the
traffic in question is a touch and go, disregard this advice.
If you are flying out of an uncontrolled field and you are concerned about
wake turbulence, make a short approach and a long landing, staying above the
wake turbulence of the landing aircraft. This reduces your extended
vulnurability on final, you are less likely to get "cold-nosed." Once again,
if the traffic in question is touch and go, disregard.
If you are flying a Firestar II into a controlled field, then you are not
flying an ultralight, you are flying an experimental, and you need to advise
the controller accordingly. How I would have handled an ultralight and how I
would have handled an experimental aircraft requesting to come in and land
are miles apart. U/L vehicles are not aircraft (legally) and cannot be
treated as such, neither can you treat an U/L vehicle driver as you would a
pilot. Why? Because a vehicle is not reqauired to have a compass, an
altimeter, or an airspeed indicator, neither is the driver required to know
how to use them. So how do you give vectors, assign headings or altitudes,
or provide seperation services to U/L's? Legally, you can't. Practically,
maybe, but if it goes wrong, the controller is really out on a limb.
Be glad to expand on this if anyone cares.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Did It Again.
> Ust my .02,
>
> I've flown various types of UL's and fat UL's at uncontrolled fields and
> now fly my firestar II out of a class D airport. What I've found to be
> good practices:
>
> - a generally accepted pattern procedure for ultralights is a pattern in
> the same direction as the normal one but fly inside and below it. This way
> you're visible to the other planes and you can sequence in with them in
> the normal way by simply adjusting how high and far out from the runway
> you are.
>
> - use the active runway at all times. Don't use the taxiway at all unless
> it's just totally deserted and no one is around ;). The other guys will
> simply freak out if you land on anything other than the runway they're
> using...
>
> - wake turbulence is a huge deal in an ultralight. Even a C150's wake can
> put a UL into the dirt. Extend your downwind a bit if someone's landing.
> This will piss some guys off a little since you're plugging up the works,
> but if you dump it on short final due to the wake they'll be a lot madder.
>
> - go ahead and use a radio and learn the normal comm procedures. More than
> anything this will keep tempers down and fascination with your plane up.
>
> I've never flown an ultralight into a controlled field but I can almost
> not imagine not using one if I did even with permission. If you're in
> contact with the controller in the usual way the entry should be a
> non-event.
>
> LS
>
>
> -
>
> --------
> LS
> FS II
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132502#132502
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
OP
Not to challenge a retired controller, but how can any pilot
"disregard this advice" about wake turbulence following a touch-&-go
aircraft?
It generates the same wake turbulence whether it stops on the
runway or keeps rolling.
Any pilot of any aircraft should have been briefed on wake
turbulence, preferably by seeing the FAA's free film on same;
educational and mildly terrifying
He should know to land BEYOND the aircraft ahead's touchdown point,
and lift off BEFORE the point where the other aircraft does
Or he shouldn't be flying from airports at all.
On Sep 3, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> A couple comments from a retired controller -
> If you are flying out of a controlled field and you are concerned
> about wake turbulence - ask for a short approach and a long
> landing. That way you will be above wake turbulence from whoever
> else is landing. Of course, it the traffic in question is a touch
> and go, disregard this advice.
>
> If you are flying out of an uncontrolled field and you are
> concerned about wake turbulence, make a short approach and a long
> landing, staying above the wake turbulence of the landing aircraft.
> This reduces your extended vulnurability on final, you are less
> likely to get "cold-nosed." Once again, if the traffic in question
> is touch and go, disregard.
>
> If you are flying a Firestar II into a controlled field, then you
> are not flying an ultralight, you are flying an experimental, and
> you need to advise the controller accordingly. How I would have
> handled an ultralight and how I would have handled an experimental
> aircraft requesting to come in and land are miles apart. U/L
> vehicles are not aircraft (legally) and cannot be treated as such,
> neither can you treat an U/L vehicle driver as you would a pilot.
> Why? Because a vehicle is not reqauired to have a compass, an
> altimeter, or an airspeed indicator, neither is the driver required
> to know how to use them. So how do you give vectors, assign
> headings or altitudes, or provide seperation services to U/L's?
> Legally, you can't. Practically, maybe, but if it goes wrong, the
> controller is really out on a limb.
>
> Be glad to expand on this if anyone cares.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:48 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Did It Again.
>
>
>> Ust my .02,
>>
>> I've flown various types of UL's and fat UL's at uncontrolled
>> fields and now fly my firestar II out of a class D airport. What
>> I've found to be good practices:
>>
>> - a generally accepted pattern procedure for ultralights is a
>> pattern in the same direction as the normal one but fly inside and
>> below it. This way you're visible to the other planes and you can
>> sequence in with them in the normal way by simply adjusting how
>> high and far out from the runway you are.
>>
>> - use the active runway at all times. Don't use the taxiway at all
>> unless it's just totally deserted and no one is around ;). The
>> other guys will simply freak out if you land on anything other
>> than the runway they're using...
>>
>> - wake turbulence is a huge deal in an ultralight. Even a C150's
>> wake can put a UL into the dirt. Extend your downwind a bit if
>> someone's landing. This will piss some guys off a little since
>> you're plugging up the works, but if you dump it on short final
>> due to the wake they'll be a lot madder.
>>
>> - go ahead and use a radio and learn the normal comm procedures.
>> More than anything this will keep tempers down and fascination
>> with your plane up.
>>
>> I've never flown an ultralight into a controlled field but I can
>> almost not imagine not using one if I did even with permission. If
>> you're in contact with the controller in the usual way the entry
>> should be a non-event.
>>
>> LS
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>> --------
>> LS
>> FS II
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132502#132502
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
>>>>>>When I fly into a controlled air space airport, I have to get
>>>>>>permission. I
have found that they usually want some ultralight vehicles on display. If I
am told to stay away, I do. I call a day before the fly-in. Then I call
again just before departing for the fly-in. We discuss how I am to approach
the airport, and how they will pick me up. Often they have me circle a
landmark on the edge of the airport at a given altitude. One time the
controller called me every fifteen minutes and described land features on
the flight path and I could click the mic button to indicated yes or no, so
he could determine my progress. They have been very courteous and I follow
the controller's instructions for landing and taxiing. I explain that if
there is much surface wind, I need to pay attention to the FireFly and
not be fiddling with the radio. When I leave I cell phone call or buddy
with
someone else that is leaving who has a radio.
Using the radio to break into to a seemingly continuous landing queue would
be illegal. <<<<<
Ok I understand more now. You had permission and my plane can go faster. At
a crowded airport I get in line fly at 80 mph and keep it that way till
short final and let the faster planes bedhind me deal with it, while I do
what I was ask to do, what is llegal, predictable and expected. I'm not sure
your last sentence is right, I haven't seen anything that says using the
radio to break into a continuous landing quee is illegal and between landing
on taxiway or breaking in line I'd break in line. Rather have a problem with
another pilot than the FAA.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
Richard Pike wrote:
> A couple comments from a retired controller -
> If you are flying out of a controlled field and you are concerned about wake
> turbulence - ask for a short approach and a long landing. That way you will
> be above wake turbulence from whoever else is landing. Of course, it the
> traffic in question is a touch and go, disregard this advice.
>
> If you are flying out of an uncontrolled field and you are concerned about
> wake turbulence, make a short approach and a long landing, staying above the
> wake turbulence of the landing aircraft. This reduces your extended
> vulnurability on final, you are less likely to get "cold-nosed." Once again,
> if the traffic in question is touch and go, disregard.
>
This is what I'd do at our airport except it's virtually always the case that the
landing traffic is touch-and-go. So unless the controller needs me to do a
short approach or I'll otherwise keep him too busy, I typically request extending
my downwind and/fly the pattern really slow (did the pattern at 60mph in the
titan last night after a beech jet landed in front of me).
But if the controller needs me to do X, I damn sure comply and do X unless I'm
unable or in my judgement as PIC it'll be a hazard....
I.e. day before yesterday we were cleared for takeoff, but there was a Mig holding
short of the active in front of us waiting to takeoff too...... so I kind
of had to tell the tower about that one ;).
>
> If you are flying a Firestar II into a controlled field, then you are not
> flying an ultralight, you are flying an experimental, and you need to advise
> the controller accordingly. How I would have handled an ultralight and how I
> would have handled an experimental aircraft requesting to come in and land
> are miles apart. U/L vehicles are not aircraft (legally) and cannot be
> treated as such, neither can you treat an U/L vehicle driver as you would a
> pilot. Why? Because a vehicle is not reqauired to have a compass, an
> altimeter, or an airspeed indicator, neither is the driver required to know
> how to use them. So how do you give vectors, assign headings or altitudes,
> or provide seperation services to U/L's? Legally, you can't. Practically,
> maybe, but if it goes wrong, the controller is really out on a limb.
>
> Be glad to expand on this if anyone cares.
>
That's a good point that I didn't think about.... BTW, my FSII is registered experimental
A/B so he's properly equipped and legal at our airport. But I sort
of take a compass, ASI, alt and comm for granted, didn't think about what a controller
would have to deal with if one of more of those wasn't available in an
incoming plane......
Interesting....
I should also mention the controllers are pretty enthralled by my Firestar, they
mostly look at spam cans and jets all day so I'm pretty different....
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132512#132512
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote:
> OP
> Not to challenge a retired controller, but how can any pilot
> "disregard this advice" about wake turbulence following a touch-&-go
> aircraft?
> It generates the same wake turbulence whether it stops on the
> runway or keeps rolling.
> Any pilot of any aircraft should have been briefed on wake
> turbulence, preferably by seeing the FAA's free film on same;
> educational and mildly terrifying
> He should know to land BEYOND the aircraft ahead's touchdown point,
> and lift off BEFORE the point where the other aircraft does
> Or he shouldn't be flying from airports at all.
>
Actually, no it doesnt, in my experience. Another wake is created further upwind
as the plane takes off again in a TnG situation. In a full stop, you just have
the wake created on landing. So above and beyond the path of the landing a/c
will keep you out of the wake in that case, but you can still hit the wake created
on departure in the TnG situation.
Don't ask me how I know this.....
But in case of a full stop on landing traffic in front of me in calm conditions,
I'll ask the tower for a long landing, even in the titan....
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132515#132515
Message 22
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In case anyone is interested, Bev and I will arrive at Kolb Factory around
noon Wedneday in the RV with Slingshot in tow. Gotta take Mamma on this
one. I still have the 582 on the Slingshot. Will demo it and be willing to
take it off plane if purchased. Am picking up 912 at homecoming for
installation so the 582 with everything attached is up for grabs. Has oil
injection, radiator either a brand new warp three blade or ivo. all you
gotta do is drop it on your own plane and put the wires and gas line to it
and you are ready to go with a really good running blue head. about 180
hours on it. hope to see you all there. I could sell it earlier but then I
would not have anything to fly while I was there. If you arent really big,
I could take you for flight to show you the power of the engine. If you are
building a plane and want to cut your time, effort and $$ down considerably
this is the power plant for you. I have done all the work. $5500 with the
IVO and $6000 with the Warp. if interested, call 1-334-480-0822 or email me
off list. Ted Cowan, Alabama
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
Because if the aircraft you are following is doing a touch and go, then you
have to be able to stay above his flight path of his final, touch down just
beyond where he touched down, and not so far along that you get into his
fresh wake generated by his liftoff. And I prefer not to tell anybody how to
do that, because if they mess up, it would not be a smiley-face day.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russ Kinne" <russ@rkiphoto.com>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Did It Again.
>
> OP
> Not to challenge a retired controller, but how can any pilot "disregard
> this advice" about wake turbulence following a touch-&-go aircraft?
> It generates the same wake turbulence whether it stops on the runway or
> keeps rolling.
> Any pilot of any aircraft should have been briefed on wake turbulence,
> preferably by seeing the FAA's free film on same;
> educational and mildly terrifying
> He should know to land BEYOND the aircraft ahead's touchdown point, and
> lift off BEFORE the point where the other aircraft does
> Or he shouldn't be flying from airports at all.
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Did It Again. |
At 11:42 AM 9/3/07 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Using the radio to break into to a seemingly continuous landing queue would
>be illegal. <<<<<
David,
I was at an non control tower field (MZZ). As I am flying an ultralight
vehicle, I am supposed to give way to all other flying aircraft.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 25
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| Subject: | Exchanging Airplanes |
Well I guess I will be parting with the Firestar soon to get into a Mk3
Extra Kit I sure am going to miss all the fun I have been having in the firestar
But hey I will be back in the air in yet another KOLB before I know it as
soon as I get the Extra Built I just feel the extra will be a better machine
for the type of flying I like to do, I want something that has enough room
to carry all the things I would need for a long cross country so I can
attend some of the events You guys all meet at and get the chance to put some
faces with some screen names
I will be traveling from Maine to Minnesota and back on these routs I
would be happy to meet any of you guys in my travel if its not to far from My
trail
Driving Directions from 288 Avenue Rd, Levant, ME to North Saint Paul, MN
Driving Directions from North Saint Paul, MN to 288 Avenue Rd, Levant, ME
Ellery in MAINE
is it ok To be addicted to KOLB instead of drugs ....LOL
do not archive
**************************************
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Getting through ELSA |
Vic:
Luck .... not really. The FAA guy I happened to know from his days as the Dir
of Maintenance where I keep my traveling plane. So it did help knowing him.
But he still followed the book.
I must not have read the instructions all the way. I put Kolb as the manufacturer
and never gave it a thought. I did not build it all, it came via a kit plus
it was a in-process project that acquired and brought it to completion. I
am happy to have Kolb on the registration.
I was looking at the EAB but the DAR told me that he probably would not give me
repair authority so the E-LSA looked like the best fit. Or I could have created
the documentation to satisfy the DAR.
When I found this plane, I had intended to have it a UL. But it was fat and no
way would it ever make the weight. The LSA was a great opportunity for this
plane.
Again, thanks to the K Listers for the help.
Jim
do not archive
--------
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Firestar II
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