Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:38 AM - Re: FireFly Electrics (lucien)
2. 07:23 AM - Firefly on Ebay (N27SB@aol.com)
3. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: FireFly Electrics (Richard Girard)
4. 08:46 AM - Challenger 10-gal fuel tank (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
5. 09:03 AM - Re: Challenger 10-gal fuel tank (Robert Laird)
6. 09:06 AM - Re: Challenger 10-gal fuel tank (Richard Girard)
7. 10:59 AM - Re: Challenger 10-gal fuel tank (jim)
8. 01:18 PM - Re: Firefly on Ebay (Bob Noyer)
9. 02:43 PM - Re: Firefly on Ebay (Russ Kinne)
10. 02:53 PM - Gap Seal (David Lehman)
11. 04:33 PM - Re: Gap Seal (flymichigan@comcast.net)
12. 04:37 PM - Re: Gap Seal (Jim Dunn)
13. 05:05 PM - Re: Firefly on Ebay (Bob Noyer)
14. 05:21 PM - Re: Gap Seal (Dana Hague)
15. 05:54 PM - Re: Gap Seal (John Hauck)
16. 06:11 PM - Re: Gap Seal (Dana Hague)
17. 06:40 PM - Re: Gap Seal (John Hauck)
18. 07:20 PM - Re: Gap Seal (Richard Pike)
19. 08:00 PM - Re: Gap Seal (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
20. 08:14 PM - Re: Gap Seal (Richard Girard)
21. 08:17 PM - Re: Gap Seal (Jim ODay)
22. 08:39 PM - Re: Gap Seal (John Hauck)
23. 11:15 PM - Re: Pilot operating handbook for an UltraStar (Dana Hague)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Electrics |
henry.voris wrote:
> Rick,
> Nope my 477 doesn't use points.
> I have the Rotax manuals...
> Thanks for the tip on "AeroElectric Connection here on the Matronics lists and
Bob Knuckolls' web site."
> Also, there's no cap or battery... I do plan to install a small battery (to
check the electric fuel pump before starting the engine...), but that is a future
project.
> My concern now revolves around the fact that the DC system (everything past
the KW Voltage Regulator) doesn't use the cage as a bus for the ground... And
there is no continuity between the engine and the cage. I can't think of a reason
why this is wrong, it simply isn't the way I would have done it if I had wired
the plane from the get-go, so it makes me a bit uneasy.
> Thanks for the help...
> Aloha,
This isn't necessarily bad. One drawback of using the cage as the ground is magnetization
that can occur to the tubes due to the current flow through them. This
can give you fits trying to get your compass to work ;). This was a problem
on my titan.
Though this is usually only a problem if you've got electric start where a whole
bunch of current goes through the frame.
Otherwise, as long as everything shares the same ground, IIRC, you should be ok
whether it's the frame or not....
(unless you need more than one ground, but I can't think of a situation where you
need that?)
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134813#134813
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Looks like there is a Firefly on Ebay. Is this Don G's old plane?
Steve
Firefly 007/Floats
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Electrics |
Henry, I can't find a wiring recommendation for the KW regulator, but the
Rotax installation manual shows a 2000uf 25V capacitor used for either of
their rectifier/regulators when no battery is installed. See pages 18-3
figure 39 for the 866 080 R/R and page 18-5 figure 42 for the 264 870 R/R.
I have the KW on my 582 and I run a 20,000uf /50V cap on the 12V output WITH
a battery. In this application it's used to kill the high pitch squeal in
the radio that rises and falls with alternator revs.
I was thinking of those little diodes in the CDI units that take the
ignition secondary voltage if a plug is ungrounded (why you should use an
ignition spark tester when checking for spark) when I asked about points.
As far as putting the fuses on the AC side of the alternator output, that
would be a good question for Bob. Perhaps the builder was thinking of a
poorman's protection against a runaway alternator. Have you checked the size
of the fuses? Are they rated for AC current?
Rick
On 9/17/07, henry.voris <henry_voris@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rick,
> Nope my 477 doesn't use points.
> I have the Rotax manuals...
> Thanks for the tip on "AeroElectric Connection here on the
> Matronics lists and Bob Knuckolls' web site."
> Also, there's no cap or battery... I do plan to install a small
> battery (to check the electric fuel pump before starting the engine...), but
> that is a future project.
> My concern now revolves around the fact that the DC system
> (everything past the KW Voltage Regulator) doesn't use the cage as a bus for
> the ground... And there is no continuity between the engine and the cage. I
> can't think of a reason why this is wrong, it simply isn't the way I would
> have done it if I had wired the plane from the get-go, so it makes me a bit
> uneasy.
> Thanks for the help...
> Aloha,
>
> --------
> Henry
> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134787#134787
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Challenger 10-gal fuel tank |
Richard Pike wrote: << Just in case you decide to try using a Challenger
tank, here's what not to do ...>>
I've seen discussion about using the Challenger ten gallon fuel tanks in
our Kolbs, and how the square footprint of that tank fits exactly in the
space provided in a Kolb. I have even considered this option for
increasing fuel capacity in my Mark-3.
Question: Has anyone on this List actually done this? Can you even get
that 10-gal fuel tank in without cutting cage structure? The stock
5-gallon tanks are troublesome enough to twist, rotate, and contort into
their designed slots in the cage. Makes me wonder if a tank twice as
tall would even fit.
How about the six-gallon tanks that New Kolb has recently advertised?
Can those also be fitted without cutting out tubes?
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, 912ul, and looking for increased fuel capacity options, in
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Challenger 10-gal fuel tank |
I've got, but haven't yet installed, the 6-gallon tanks from TNK. I
have, however, verified that they will fit without any cutting....
barely. I can't imagine how anything bigger would ever fit unless you
were just started building....
-- Robert
On 9/17/07, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
>
>
> Richard Pike wrote: << Just in case you decide to try using a Challenger
> tank, here's what not to do ...>>
>
> I've seen discussion about using the Challenger ten gallon fuel tanks in
> our Kolbs, and how the square footprint of that tank fits exactly in the
> space provided in a Kolb. I have even considered this option for
> increasing fuel capacity in my Mark-3.
>
> Question: Has anyone on this List actually done this? Can you even get
> that 10-gal fuel tank in without cutting cage structure? The stock
> 5-gallon tanks are troublesome enough to twist, rotate, and contort into
> their designed slots in the cage. Makes me wonder if a tank twice as
> tall would even fit.
>
> How about the six-gallon tanks that New Kolb has recently advertised?
> Can those also be fitted without cutting out tubes?
>
> Dennis Kirby
> Mark-III, 912ul, and looking for increased fuel capacity options, in
> Cedar Crest, NM
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Challenger 10-gal fuel tank |
Dennis, I had a chance to measure the Challenger tank when I had a CII clip
wing in the shop. It won't fit without mods. When I asked Travis if getting
the new 6 gallon tank into the MkIII airframe was as big a PITA as the 5
gallon, his reply, was, "yeah, about the same."
Just looking at the six gallon tank at Sun n Fun, it looked like it was
taller, but I didn't have a tape measure with me at the time. :-)
Rick
On 9/17/07, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
>
> Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
>
>
> Richard Pike wrote: << Just in case you decide to try using a Challenger
> tank, here's what not to do ...>>
>
> I've seen discussion about using the Challenger ten gallon fuel tanks in
> our Kolbs, and how the square footprint of that tank fits exactly in the
> space provided in a Kolb. I have even considered this option for
> increasing fuel capacity in my Mark-3.
>
> Question: Has anyone on this List actually done this? Can you even get
> that 10-gal fuel tank in without cutting cage structure? The stock
> 5-gallon tanks are troublesome enough to twist, rotate, and contort into
> their designed slots in the cage. Makes me wonder if a tank twice as
> tall would even fit.
>
> How about the six-gallon tanks that New Kolb has recently advertised?
> Can those also be fitted without cutting out tubes?
>
> Dennis Kirby
> Mark-III, 912ul, and looking for increased fuel capacity options, in
> Cedar Crest, NM
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Challenger 10-gal fuel tank |
I have a Challenger 10 gal fuel tank in my Firefly. It was ordered that way from
the old Kolb factory. The tank needs to be empty to put it in or out, and
needs to be turned just so, but it does work fine. I believe the 4 bracing rods
that hold the tank in are in different spots from standard to allow for the
larger circumference tank.
--------
Jim
N. Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134860#134860
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly on Ebay |
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly on Ebay |
came thru blank!
On Sep 17, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Bob Noyer wrote:
>
>
Message 10
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Then there is this:
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X19633&key=1
DVD
do not archive
On 9/15/07, ElleryWeld@aol.com <ElleryWeld@aol.com> wrote:
>
> *REALLY its not a big deal Flying without the gap seal at least in my
> Firestar it just makes it a convertible top
> There is no difference in how it fly's with or without it
>
>
> Ellery in Maine
>
> do not archive*
>
>
> **************************************<
>
> **
>
>
--
- "As pilots we are special, unique, a rare breed, passionate, an
d
generally somewhat odd." ~ Dave Wiley
Message 11
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Message 12
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When I got my Firefly it did not have a gap seal. I considered putting
one on but I'm 6-01 and I think it would make it more difficult to get in
and out of the Firefly.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly on Ebay |
Didn't see a FF, but there is a Firestar (Item number: 280153702617)
which is kinda odd; shows a bare cage, tet says it was flying! Shows
covered tail and wings. price $1950 Buy it Now. Opened at 1550, no bids.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 14
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OK, with all the talk about how important the center section gap seal is on
the later birds, how 'bout the Ultrastar? Mine didn't come with one, the
previous owner said it made little or no difference, after it ripped he
never replaced it, but he only flew the plane a few times.
-Dana
--
--
Every election, Mickey Mouse looks better and better as President.
Message 15
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> OK, with all the talk about how important the center section gap seal is
> on the later birds, how 'bout the Ultrastar?
> -Dana
Dana:
My own personal experience came as a shock when I learned, in the air, that
flying an Ultrastar without the gap seal seriously degraded performance of
the aircraft.
Always in a hurry to get stuff done so I could fly, back in the early days,
I decided to do a quick test flight around the patch without the US gap
seal. Soon as I was in the air I realized it was there for more than
aesthetics.
The original nylon gap seal Old Kolb provided were quickly destroyed by UV.
I found that normal roofing valley aluminum made an excellent gap seal.
Welded a couple tabs fore and aft, top and bottom, to attach with tinnerman
nuts. Worked great.
Later on decided I should use "real" aircraft material, so bought an
expensive roll of 2024 aluminum. In a matter of hours the 2024 started
cracking and splitting. The cheap, soft hardware store variety worked much
better.
Some low time Kolb pilots don't know the difference between a good flying
Kolb and one that flies like a dog.
john h
mkIII
Message 16
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At 08:53 PM 9/17/2007, John Hauck wrote:
>
>My own personal experience came as a shock when I learned, in the air,
>that flying an Ultrastar without the gap seal seriously degraded
>performance of the aircraft.
John, degraded how?
-Dana
--
--
In England, the cops say, 'Halt or I'll say halt again!'
Message 17
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>
> John, degraded how?
>
> -Dana
Dana:
Performance of the Ultrastar is seriously degraded. You know, like it takes
a heck of a lot more power to make the airplane fly. There is a tremendous
amount of drag on the airplane. In addition, it loses lift and degrades the
controls. Typically, what happens when the airflow is seriously screwed up
in and around the airplane.
That is my experience with the Ultrastar circa 1984 or 85. Maybe all that
has changed by now. ;-)
My 1986 Firestar also suffered from the same characteristics when flown
without the gap seal. Again, that was a long time ago, like 1986 ot 87.
john h
mkIII
Message 18
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I'll second what John H says. Number of years ago watched a Firestar take
off and was about 50' up when the gap seal came loose. The pilot was good,
but he almost lost it getting it down alongside the runway. Scared him
badly, said it wanted to quit flying on him.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Hague" <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Gap Seal
>
> At 08:53 PM 9/17/2007, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>>My own personal experience came as a shock when I learned, in the air,
>>that flying an Ultrastar without the gap seal seriously degraded
>>performance of the aircraft.
>
> John, degraded how?
>
> -Dana
> --
> --
> In England, the cops say, 'Halt or I'll say halt again!'
>
>
>
Message 19
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The pilot's failure to maintain airspeed, which resulted in a stall
I think this would be the only reason PILOT error forgetting to fly the
plane after he had lost the gap seal
I know this first hand as I had one fly off while doing stalls one day I
cant believe it didnt get in the prop but the plane flew as good without it as
it did with it
and I have flown it many times without it and I havent wrecked it yet
because I never forget to fly the plane
Ellery in Maine
"Mainiac"
do not archive
**************************************
See what's new at
Message 20
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Dana, John et al, The explanation for the degraded performance of a wing
without a gap seal is simple. With a gap seal, you have two wing tip
vortices, without, you have four. On top of that the two inner vortices
interfere with each other by spinning in opposite directions.
The two wings flying side by side have half the aspect ratio of the full
wing so a much larger percentage of each wing is involved in spanwise flow.
The net result is not just more than twice the induced drag, but a
significant reduction in lift, too.
Rick
On 9/17/07, Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org> wrote:
>
>
> I'll second what John H says. Number of years ago watched a Firestar take
> off and was about 50' up when the gap seal came loose. The pilot was
> good,
> but he almost lost it getting it down alongside the runway. Scared him
> badly, said it wanted to quit flying on him.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dana Hague" <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Gap Seal
>
>
> >
> > At 08:53 PM 9/17/2007, John Hauck wrote:
> >>
> >>My own personal experience came as a shock when I learned, in the air,
> >>that flying an Ultrastar without the gap seal seriously degraded
> >>performance of the aircraft.
> >
> > John, degraded how?
> >
> > -Dana
> > --
> > --
> > In England, the cops say, 'Halt or I'll say halt again!'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 21
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John H says: "Some low time Kolb pilots don't know the difference between a good
flying
Kolb and one that flies like a dog. "
...... I know how mine flies, but I do not have anything to compare it to; I may
be flying a "dog".
I am a low time Kolb pilot and I only have my Kolb to judge flight characteristics
from.
I built a Gap Seal from lexan. The top is nearly a complete seal except for the
area around the the engine mount. There is no TOP side coverage on a section
about the size of the engine mounting plate platform.
I have a BRS on a shelf under the seal and I fabricated a door that will allow
the chute to pass through if ever needed. It is held in place with a aluminum
hinge and Velcro. I have been experimenting with the amount of Velcro needed
to keep it closed during flight, but not enough to slow the chute deployment.
It has partially opened in a corner during flight, I am looking at alternate
ways to hold it in place.
The bottom is OPEN. The leading edge is formed aluminum and that extends about
12" back, but then it is open all the way to the rear.
My question is about the open bottom. I saw it quite a challenge to build the
bottom section around the BRS, and it got harder the further back I went. I figured
the the top was the most important and I could skip the bottom.
Does an open bottom gap seal = a "dog" Kolb?
The pictures are some I made when I was fitting up everything. The BRS pack is
missing plus I had not finished the Velcro around the trap door.
What do you think Kolb fliers?
do not archive
--------
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Firestar II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134965#134965
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gap_seal_top_204.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gap_seal_front_120.jpg
Message 22
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Hi Ellery:
Never flew a FSII without the gap seal. Can only speak for the original
FS and US, which in my opinion flew much better than any FSII I have
flown over the years.
I was very fortunate, last june, while at Homer Kolb's, to get to fly
the 1985 Oshkosh Grand Champion Firestar powered with a dual carb 503.
Mine had a 40 hp 447, which Homer would not sell me with the kit. Kit
came with a 35 hp 377. Homer's FS was a rocket ship, very light and
powerful.
john h
mkIII
the plane flew as good without it as it did with it
Ellery in Maine
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Pilot operating handbook for an UltraStar |
At 02:50 PM 9/16/2007, KolbFlyerJim@aol.com wrote:
>Thanks Dan
>
>I have the build manual dosnt give vne best rate of climb,Best angle of
>climb,or any other info i need. Yes I have N numbered my UltraStar. from
>the looks of it I Have the only N numbered UltraStar in the country.
Why are you N-numbering an Ultrastar?
-Dana
--
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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