---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/01/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: New Warp Drive (Larry Cottrell) 2. 08:35 AM - Re: Mark III LSA paperwork (DBforfun@aol.com) 3. 09:13 AM - Re: Mark III LSA paperwork (Jim ODay) 4. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork (Richard Pike) 5. 10:05 AM - Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 6. 10:16 AM - Re: ELT Installation (icrashrc) 7. 11:55 AM - More ELT mounting pics (Richard Girard) 8. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: ELT Installation (The Kuffels) 9. 03:03 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Richard Pike) 10. 04:21 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck) 11. 06:09 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Richard Pike) 12. 06:25 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck) 13. 07:10 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 14. 07:26 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Denny Rowe) 15. 07:35 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 16. 07:36 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck) 17. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Firefly Landing speed (beauford T) 18. 07:51 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck) 19. 11:01 PM - Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 20. 11:05 PM - Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:40 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New Warp Drive I ran a 68 warp drive on my Firestar and it did alright, however the fabric was getting a real beating and the noise was pretty bad. I put a spacer on it that required 6 1/4 8.8 bolts in it. I ordered them through John Deere, the only place I could find them, but there are others. Larry C do not archive At this point I would like to know if I have enough clearance on my firefly, to run the 64"Warp without a spacer. It doesn't seem to flex at all ! If In fact I do need a spacer can I use grade 5 bolts? Ed ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:46 AM PST US From: DBforfun@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork I have a Mark III that was originally fitted with a 503 and now I am installing a 912 ULS and I am registering it LSA. Does anyone have copies of the paperwork that you used to license your Kolb on your computer that you could send to me that I can use as a guide line to make the necessary documents, etc to finish the process with mine. I have the kit from the EAA and I have the N number and the registration from the FAA. I am in the process of finishing the installation of the engine and a new panel. I have to now finish the paperwork and as soon as the engine and panel are finished call for the inspection. Also I have a question about safety wire on the prop bolts and prop extension bolts. Since the bolts are held on with lock nuts in both instances, rather than threading into a flange, will the inspector require that I drill the bolt heads and safety wire them? I really appreciate the info I have gotten from this forum. You guys have helped me tremendously. Thanks Dan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:42 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork From: "Jim ODay" Dan: Send me an e-mail off and I will scan my paperwork and send it to you for reference. I used the EAA checklist, but you can see another sample. jimo(at)odayequipment(dot)com do not archive -------- Jim O'Day Fargo, ND Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137422#137422 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:15 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork Lock nuts on a non-rotating bolt should be sufficient. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: DBforfun@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mark III LSA paperwork Also I have a question about safety wire on the prop bolts and prop extension bolts. Since the bolts are held on with lock nuts in both instances, rather than threading into a flange, will the inspector require that I drill the bolt heads and safety wire them? I really appreciate the info I have gotten from this forum. You guys have helped me tremendously. Thanks Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:26 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge I just got back fro the Kolb Homecoming. Richard Pike and John Hauck faced off for the Grand Vortex Generator Challenge. It was a draw!!!!!!! As a bit of a background: Richard Pike - He has a highly modified MKIII with the most VGs I have ever seen on one airplane with 582 Rotax. It is light, streamlined and clearly configured for slow flight. John Hauck - His airplane MKIII is clearly built for a different mission. It is in comparison more than 100 lbs heaver than Richards airplane and has no VGs. I assumed that John would surely be eating crow. They did three slow flight fly overs at app. 500ft. The winner would fly the slowest. John H. clearly wanted to win. John was flying with full flaps and had the power on to maintain altitude in a mush. On the first pass John must have stalled ten times and lost some altitude at one point but held even with Richard. On the last two passes John had the routine down and only stalled a few times but was on the edge again holding even with Richard. Richard was rock solid on all passes with not a hint of stall but not noticeably any slower. John said he saw Richard occasionally used flaps but it wasn't something we could see from the ground. It appeared Richard had a much easier time flying. As a final observation: With the weight differences Richard should have won. The effort John put in to keeping slowed down with Richard would make up for the weight difference. I find it hard to believe but it would appear that the VGs didn't help a bit. Will this settle the controversy? Don't think so. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:26 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ELT Installation From: "icrashrc" Here's where my ELT is. It's mounted on a Kevlar panel under the right seat. -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137446#137446 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/elt_mounting02_131.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/elt_mounting_882.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:17 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: More ELT mounting pics Although I'm not fond of this mounting scheme, simply slipping a couple of insulated clamps around frame members, it does work and it's quick and dirty. The antenna mount I'm even less fond, but once again, it gets the job done. One note on ELT's. The cable going to the panel switch seems to be designed for mounting in the extreme aft of something the size of a B-52. I see a lot of installations, like mine, that has the excess cable wadded up and nylon tied. As you can see from the picture, the cable on this model comes straight out of the case. I have an ACK 450 for my FireStar that has a phone plug so the cable can be replaced. Unfortunately, I can't just substitute a phone cord more near the length required. Phone cords run straight through from plug to plug. ELT cords have a 180 twist so that, for instance, if the red wire is connected to the first terminal on one end, it's connected to first terminal on the other end, too, whereas on a phone cord it would be connected to the fourth terminal. Regardless, a $10 tool from Rat Shack and a $.99 pack of plugs are all you need to shorten up this cable and make the installation a little neater. Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:08 PM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ELT Installation << There are much better places to mount the ELT antenna than in among the cage tubing. >> Actually, the inside of a large cage like a Kolb is a very good place to mount an ELT and its antenna. It is not a good electrical location but the problem with ELT antennas is they tend to be be removed in a crash. The signal from inside a mangled cage is quite usable whereas the signal from an ELT with no antenna is non-existent. Such was the case with many of the several hundred searches I flew in Alaska. On the other hand, when I crashed a few years ago, the signal from inside the fiberglass tailcone (surrounded by bits of metal) was so strong Search & Rescue couldn't zero in on it because of all the reflections bouncing off the surrounding mountains. Tom Kuffel Whitefish, MT ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:33 PM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Pretty good analysis, now let me fill in the gaps from my onboard perspective... John and I taxied out, we had discussed it and I was supposed to take off first, he would join up with me, we turn final together at around 50 and then slow down to whatever. I got to the runup area and discovered I had no radio. (My bad, I had been using my noise canceling earbuds in conjunction with my headset, and discovered about half way home that the plug for the earbuds wasn't all the way in.) Sat in the runup area, fiddled with the cords and plugs for a while, decided the radio had died, and went ahead and took off. First pass, I never did see John, had no idea where he was. The idea of flying a semi-formation with anybody that I can't talk to and can't see is not my idea of a smiley-face event, so my desire to fly as slow as possible was balanced by my desire to make real sure that I held my altitude exactly, and did not stall. (Emphasis on the "did not stall") I figured that if he could see me, and I didn't do anything but fly straight and level, no one would get hurt. Earlier Saturday, while I was passing over London, Ky, I tried a little slow flight flight just to brush up, and in perfectly smooth air, I could get the airspeed to read 22-23 before it stalled. Obviously not an accurate reading, but at least a reference number. During the pass down the runway, in somewhat bumpy air, I felt uncomfortable getting below 26 indicated, because I couldn't see my wingman, and if I stalled and got into him... There are no excuses for being dumb and hurting your buddies. Second pass, I could see John, he was slightly ahead of me to my right and lower, it looked like our speeds matched, I was using about 5300 rpm and trying to hold 26 indicated. I noticed that as we got toward the east end of the runway, John was climbing, and I actually had to start a left turn to stay out of his way. I assumed that he had decided thrust was a good substitute for lift... (Great idea, wish I'd thought of it) Third pass, once again, I never saw John, had no idea where he was, and once again, my goal was to fly as slow as possible without any possibility of a stall. Passing the end of the runway, I headed for home. I never used any flaps, my airplane is set up to have flaps at 1) a slight reflex, 2) in line with the ailerons, 3) slightly below the ailerons, 3) fifteen and 4) thirty degrees. They were aligned with the ailerons, I never touched them. To claim that in perfect conditions I might have been able to fly slower begs the question. Anyone can do well in perfect conditions, I was simply outflown. I think it would be accurate to say that if you can fly as well as John, (Being able to manage slow flight while constantly stalling & recovering reflects excellent pilot abilities, my compliments on an great display of skill) while using full flaps and 100 HP to help hold you up, then you probably do not need VG's, (Which enable you to fly equally slow at partial power without stalling. Which I did, no stalls at all.) But then there is 100 pounds difference between the airplanes, (Mine weighs about 550) so we are back to square one. Which is that both my MKIII and the FSII in the hangar next to me stall about 5 or 6 mph slower than they did w/o VG's, and handle much better just above the stall. And that John in Miss P'fer is motivated enough to outfly any VG modified Kolb around, and maybe good enough to pull it off. Conclusion: Rick is right, the controversy is what we live for, and this surely will not settle it. The fun never ends... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge I just got back fro the Kolb Homecoming. Richard Pike and John Hauck faced off for the Grand Vortex Generator Challenge. It was a draw!!!!!!! As a bit of a background: Richard Pike - He has a highly modified MKIII with the most VGs I have ever seen on one airplane with 582 Rotax. It is light, streamlined and clearly configured for slow flight. John Hauck - His airplane MKIII is clearly built for a different mission. It is in comparison more than 100 lbs heaver than Richards airplane and has no VGs. I assumed that John would surely be eating crow. They did three slow flight fly overs at app. 500ft. The winner would fly the slowest. John H. clearly wanted to win. John was flying with full flaps and had the power on to maintain altitude in a mush. On the first pass John must have stalled ten times and lost some altitude at one point but held even with Richard. On the last two passes John had the routine down and only stalled a few times but was on the edge again holding even with Richard. Richard was rock solid on all passes with not a hint of stall but not noticeably any slower. John said he saw Richard occasionally used flaps but it wasn't something we could see from the ground. It appeared Richard had a much easier time flying. As a final observation: With the weight differences Richard should have won. The effort John put in to keeping slowed down with Richard would make up for the weight difference. I find it hard to believe but it would appear that the VGs didn't help a bit. Will this settle the controversy? Don't think so. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:23 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Rick, Rev, Folks: We all had a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, everyone from Homer Kolb right on down to the newest guy that was shopping and wishing for his very first Kolb. The weather could not have been better. Food was great, at no cost to the participants. The Kolb folks worked extremely hard to insure we all had an enjoyable, fun time. My thanks to Bruce Chesnut for keeping Kolb alive and well for all of us to keep on flying the best there is, Kolb aircraft. Now for my side of the story. ;-) Richard asked me, just prior to his departure, if I still wanted to do the VG/regular guy flyoff. Sure! I was ready to do slow flight, short takeoff/landing, and climb. We could have also done slow speed maneuvering, but I forgot about that. Anyhow, we agreed to do the side by side slow flight contest. Spent about 10 seconds getting our act together. Richard was already cranked when I walked over to discuss it with him. I was down at the west end of the strip warming up my engine when Richard taxied up with an inop radio. Would have been much better if we could have had comm in the air, but we didn't. I couldn't tell him I was not ready for take off when he took off ahead of me. When my engine oil temp got up to 120F, I was ready to go. I caught up with Richard and got in on his right wing after he started his first slow flight run to the east. I admit, I did not get settled down until about midway down the strip and lost about 50 feet in the process. Horsepower had nothing to do with keeping my mkIII flying. I was turning 3000 rpm, using 40 degrees of flaps. It is more difficult flying off someone's wing, constantly looking at his aircraft, while trying to keep my mkIII as close to stall as I can. Once it nibbles over the edge, it is going to lose a little altitude, change pitch attitude, and require a lot of flying by the pilot to keep it airborne. When I got settled down, so did the mkIII, flying at 3000 rpm on the plus edge of the stall. Richard was actually flying lead, which demands he trust my ability to fly off him. As a non-military pilot, he probably did not understand that and was concerned that I was going to prang him, or him me. That was not going to happen. I would hope that Richard had enough confidence in me to know I would not fly under him so he could hit me if he stalled. The air was slightly turbulent which lent to better competition between Richard and I, since we were both flying in the same air. Since I thought Richard had shared with us that VGs made slow flight more comfortable, he would have felt that way and gotten his mkIII slowed down to max. If we ever do this again, there should be two runs, with each aircraft flying lead and wingman. Richard, you did not have to turn left to get out of my way on the end of the second run. I started a climb and right break at the east end of the strip because that run was complete. Again, had your radio been operational, I would have called out my climb and right break. However, I can assure you, you were never in any danger of me climbing any direction but straight out with a hard right break. I was flying right wing on Richard. Richard says he never touched his flaps. I watched them deploy, momentarily approximately 20 degrees several times during each run. At the time I could not understand why he would pull them down and immediately retract them. I still don't. I started my run with 40 degrees of flaps each run. Probably should have flown with half flaps, 20 degrees, but that is history. Richard claims his VGs allow him to fly slower. Guess if I had them, I could really fly slow. I do not know how much difference in weight there is between Richard's and my mkIII's, but probably much more than 100 lbs. My aircraft weighed approximately 630 lbs in 1994 with a 912. I can assure you airplanes do not get lighter with age. I would guess nearer to 150 to 200 lbs more than Richard's. I went to a heavier 912ULS in 2000. Richard is flying with a 582. I don't know if he flies with a BRS or not. Only one way to find out, have a weigh off. hehehe Anyhow, you all know how the weight of an adult passenger degrades the performance of a mkIII or any light airplane. Please take that into consideration when you think about this friendly competition. As far as settling the argument, I think I pretty much did that, between these two mkIII's, in front of the entire Kolb Homecoming. If nothing else, it convinced me, I don't need to change Homer's design to make my airplane fly better. Others may, and that is alright with me. ;-) All in all, I would call it a tie. At least Miss P'fer and I did not get whooped! That is Alabamian for beaten. Take care, john h hauck's holler, alabama mkIII 2724.7 hours 912ULS 156.2 hours ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:21 PM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Nice reply, I expected nothing less. I do find it interesting that you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run because I never touched them. I wonder what you saw? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hauck To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Rick, Rev, Folks: We all had a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, everyone from Homer Kolb right on down to the newest guy that was shopping and wishing for his very first Kolb. The weather could not have been better. Food was great, at no cost to the participants. The Kolb folks worked extremely hard to insure we all had an enjoyable, fun time. My thanks to Bruce Chesnut for keeping Kolb alive and well for all of us to keep on flying the best there is, Kolb aircraft. Now for my side of the story. ;-) Richard asked me, just prior to his departure, if I still wanted to do the VG/regular guy flyoff. Sure! I was ready to do slow flight, short takeoff/landing, and climb. We could have also done slow speed maneuvering, but I forgot about that. Anyhow, we agreed to do the side by side slow flight contest. Spent about 10 seconds getting our act together. Richard was already cranked when I walked over to discuss it with him. I was down at the west end of the strip warming up my engine when Richard taxied up with an inop radio. Would have been much better if we could have had comm in the air, but we didn't. I couldn't tell him I was not ready for take off when he took off ahead of me. When my engine oil temp got up to 120F, I was ready to go. I caught up with Richard and got in on his right wing after he started his first slow flight run to the east. I admit, I did not get settled down until about midway down the strip and lost about 50 feet in the process. Horsepower had nothing to do with keeping my mkIII flying. I was turning 3000 rpm, using 40 degrees of flaps. It is more difficult flying off someone's wing, constantly looking at his aircraft, while trying to keep my mkIII as close to stall as I can. Once it nibbles over the edge, it is going to lose a little altitude, change pitch attitude, and require a lot of flying by the pilot to keep it airborne. When I got settled down, so did the mkIII, flying at 3000 rpm on the plus edge of the stall. Richard was actually flying lead, which demands he trust my ability to fly off him. As a non-military pilot, he probably did not understand that and was concerned that I was going to prang him, or him me. That was not going to happen. I would hope that Richard had enough confidence in me to know I would not fly under him so he could hit me if he stalled. The air was slightly turbulent which lent to better competition between Richard and I, since we were both flying in the same air. Since I thought Richard had shared with us that VGs made slow flight more comfortable, he would have felt that way and gotten his mkIII slowed down to max. If we ever do this again, there should be two runs, with each aircraft flying lead and wingman. Richard, you did not have to turn left to get out of my way on the end of the second run. I started a climb and right break at the east end of the strip because that run was complete. Again, had your radio been operational, I would have called out my climb and right break. However, I can assure you, you were never in any danger of me climbing any direction but straight out with a hard right break. I was flying right wing on Richard. Richard says he never touched his flaps. I watched them deploy, momentarily approximately 20 degrees several times during each run. At the time I could not understand why he would pull them down and immediately retract them. I still don't. I started my run with 40 degrees of flaps each run. Probably should have flown with half flaps, 20 degrees, but that is history. Richard claims his VGs allow him to fly slower. Guess if I had them, I could really fly slow. I do not know how much difference in weight there is between Richard's and my mkIII's, but probably much more than 100 lbs. My aircraft weighed approximately 630 lbs in 1994 with a 912. I can assure you airplanes do not get lighter with age. I would guess nearer to 150 to 200 lbs more than Richard's. I went to a heavier 912ULS in 2000. Richard is flying with a 582. I don't know if he flies with a BRS or not. Only one way to find out, have a weigh off. hehehe Anyhow, you all know how the weight of an adult passenger degrades the performance of a mkIII or any light airplane. Please take that into consideration when you think about this friendly competition. As far as settling the argument, I think I pretty much did that, between these two mkIII's, in front of the entire Kolb Homecoming. If nothing else, it convinced me, I don't need to change Homer's design to make my airplane fly better. Others may, and that is alright with me. ;-) All in all, I would call it a tie. At least Miss P'fer and I did not get whooped! That is Alabamian for beaten. Take care, john h hauck's holler, alabama mkIII 2724.7 hours 912ULS 156.2 hours ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:00 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Richard: I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) john h mkIII Nice reply, I expected nothing less. I do find it interesting that you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run because I never touched them. I wonder what you saw? Richard Pike ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:10 PM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge John Hauck wrote: > Richard: > > I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop > momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been > hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) > > The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons > inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) Or the right ailerons rising, thus the hallucination of the flaps being lowered?? :-) ----- So It's not really about VG's but about who is a better liar?? Starting to sound like a fishing/hunting story! ~ Earl ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:04 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge John H wrote I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) john h mkIII John, Rick N ( did not) see Rev Pike deploy his flaps, I think you should reread his post. He stated that you saw this but those on the ground did not. Anyway, glad you all had a good time and this gives us one more thing to debate until next year. Denny Rowe ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:53 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge John & Richard It was a draw. No one lost. Go to your corners and stay there. I reread my post, I still didn't see any of Richards flaps Rick Neilsen ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hauck To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Richard: I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop momentarily. Then on the other hand, we both may have been hallucinating simultaneously. ;-) The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping. ;-) john h mkIII Nice reply, I expected nothing less. I do find it interesting that you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run because I never touched them. I wonder what you saw? Richard Pike ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:06 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge > Or the right ailerons rising, thus the hallucination of the flaps being > lowered?? :-) ----- So It's not really about VG's but about who is a > better liar?? Starting to sound like a fishing/hunting story! > ~ Earl Earl: Reckon I had the best seat in the house! john h mkIII DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:40 PM PST US From: "beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed ....i can't stand it.... Sully, you save this shit from MAY....??? I don't have a deck of cards any more.... had one.... lost 'em in a card game... What mischief are you up to these days...? You guys figure out a way to steal Kennesaw yet...? b. ----- Original Message ----- From: possums To: beauford@tampabay.rr.com Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed At 08:50 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: ----- Howbout this one? This is the explanation of a pretty neat card trick you can do for friends over the Web. In order to do the trick, you'll need five things: a.. a deck of cards; b.. access to the Web; c.. someone to show the trick to; d.. an understanding of the trick's secret; and e.. practice. The effect of the trick is as follows: the magician opens this Web page but doesn't touch the computer for the duration of the trick. The spectator is given a deck of cards, and asked to choose any five cards; these cards can be chosen at random, or the spectator can choose five cards he wants to use. The magician takes one of the five cards out of the set, and asks his friend to enter the other four cards into a form on the Web page (a working version can be found below). The Guess button is pressed, and a picture of the fifth card is displayed. In this document, I explain everything about the trick except for its secret. But hints are given to figure out how the trick is done, and you can always beg me to tell you. http://www.minortriad.com/cards.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Yeah - you can beg all you want - but he won't tell you - hints come slow and hard took me two years to figure it out! How about if I give you a clue - ? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:25 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge Hi Denny: You are absolutely correct. I went back to my deleted file and reread Rick's msg. Thanks for pointing out my obvious error. john h mkIII Rick N ( did not) see Rev Pike deploy his flaps, I think you should reread his post. He stated that you saw this but those on the ground did not. Denny Rowe ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:11 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Kolb-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Kolb-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kolb-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kolb-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: kolb-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "kolb-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Kolb-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Kolb-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kolb-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kolb-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kolb-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Kolb-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Kolb-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Kolb-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kolb ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kolb-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kolb-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:29 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kolb-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kolb-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.