Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:27 AM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (JetPilot)
2. 03:45 AM - Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Lanny Fetterman)
3. 06:11 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck)
4. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Firefly Landing speed (beauford T)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Firefly Landing speed (beauford T)
6. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
7. 07:56 AM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (lucien)
8. 08:00 AM - Re: Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever (Vincent Nicely)
9. 08:13 AM - Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds (DBforfun@aol.com)
10. 08:18 AM - Re: Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever (John Hauck)
11. 08:19 AM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (jimhefner)
12. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Jack B. Hart)
13. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck)
14. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: ELT Installation (Richard Girard)
15. 10:13 AM - And then there were nine (Richard Girard)
16. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Jack B. Hart)
17. 11:11 AM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Jim ODay)
18. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck)
19. 11:45 AM - VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
20. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
21. 12:04 PM - Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming (David Key)
22. 12:05 PM - Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming (John Hauck)
23. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck)
24. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (kolbdriver@mlsharp.com)
25. 12:40 PM - Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
26. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Russ Kinne)
27. 02:18 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Jeremy Casey)
28. 02:29 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (ronlee)
29. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck)
30. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Bob Noyer)
31. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (John Hauck)
32. 04:44 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (JetPilot)
33. 04:46 PM - Re: And then there were nine (JetPilot)
34. 06:06 PM - Re: Firefly on Ebay (Don G)
35. 07:53 PM - Movies from TNK Homecoming (John Williamson)
36. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: And then there were nine (Richard Girard)
37. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (apilot@webtv.net)
38. 08:38 PM - Re: Movies from TNK Homecoming (Bob Dalton)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Thats amazing, not the outcome I would have expected. From my experience with
VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's ability to fly a Kolb.
Sounds like everyone had a great time, wish I could have been there.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137567#137567
Message 2
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| Subject: | Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
If the wind is right I can fly backwards! : ) Lanny Fetterman N598 LF Do
not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's
ability to fly a Kolb.
> Mike
Mike:
We always have a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, rain or shine, calm or
turbulent.
How much time did you put on your airplane before you put he VGs on?
There are people that make changes to Kolbs before they fly them,
or.........with very little flight time in them. I often wonder if they can
really make a good comparison, "before and after", in that situation? Do
they really know the capabilities of the Kolb in the stock configuration?
I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly. I very seldom fly like that
except at touch down. That is the only time I need to get that close to the
stall. I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer Kolb's
wing. Putting any other airplane in that situation would have probably put
them into an immediate full stall. The old mkIII just nibbled away and kept
on flying. I don't think my flying had much to do with the mkIII's
performance Sunday.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Landing speed |
----- Original Message -----
From: beauford T
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed
....i can't stand it.... Sully, you save this shit from MAY....???
I don't have a deck of cards any more.... had one.... lost 'em in a
card game...
What mischief are you up to these days...? You guys figure out a way
to steal Kennesaw yet...?
b.
----- Original Message -----
From: possums
To: beauford@tampabay.rr.com
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed
At 08:50 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote:
<beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
-----
Howbout this one?
This is the explanation of a pretty neat card trick you can do for
friends over the Web.
In order to do the trick, you'll need five things:
a.. a deck of cards;
b.. access to the Web;
c.. someone to show the trick to;
d.. an understanding of the trick's secret; and
e.. practice.
The effect of the trick is as follows: the magician opens this Web
page but doesn't touch the computer for the duration of the trick. The
spectator is given a deck of cards, and asked to choose any five cards;
these cards can be chosen at random, or the spectator can choose five
cards he wants to use.
The magician takes one of the five cards out of the set, and asks
his friend to enter the other four cards into a form on the Web page (a
working version can be found below). The Guess button is pressed, and a
picture of the fifth card is displayed.
In this document, I explain everything about the trick except for
its secret. But hints are given to figure out how the trick is done, and
you can always beg me to tell you.
http://www.minortriad.com/cards.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
Yeah - you can beg all you want - but he won't tell you - hints come
slow and hard
took me two years to figure it out!
How about if I give you a clue - ?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Landing speed |
Listers:
Please excuse the obvious mistransmission on my part... Obviously, I
intended this only for Possum.
Do not Archive
Beauford
----- Original Message -----
From: beauford T
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed
....i can't stand it.... Sully, you save this shit from MAY....???
I don't have a deck of cards any more.... had one.... lost 'em in a
card game...
What mischief are you up to these days...? You guys figure out a way
to steal Kennesaw yet...?
b.
----- Original Message -----
From: possums
To: beauford@tampabay.rr.com
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly Landing speed
At 08:50 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote:
<beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
-----
Howbout this one?
This is the explanation of a pretty neat card trick you can do for
friends over the Web.
In order to do the trick, you'll need five things:
a.. a deck of cards;
b.. access to the Web;
c.. someone to show the trick to;
d.. an understanding of the trick's secret; and
e.. practice.
The effect of the trick is as follows: the magician opens this Web
page but doesn't touch the computer for the duration of the trick. The
spectator is given a deck of cards, and asked to choose any five cards;
these cards can be chosen at random, or the spectator can choose five
cards he wants to use.
The magician takes one of the five cards out of the set, and asks
his friend to enter the other four cards into a form on the Web page (a
working version can be found below). The Guess button is pressed, and a
picture of the fifth card is displayed.
In this document, I explain everything about the trick except for
its secret. But hints are given to figure out how the trick is done, and
you can always beg me to tell you.
http://www.minortriad.com/cards.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
Yeah - you can beg all you want - but he won't tell you - hints come
slow and hard
took me two years to figure it out!
How about if I give you a clue - ?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
I did expect that I would stir up some discussion from my post but I thought
that it would be around the VG issue. The challenge showed me a few things.
John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as Richard
Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to me was that
the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there.
The VGs must be doing something for so many people getting worked up over
them but after this test I would suspect that people are able to fly at a
higher angle of attack causing their air speed indicators to show slower
speeds than actual. This test seems to say the actual speed is the same.
We talked about this a Homecoming. There are a bunch of people that fly
without the gap seals between the wing and ( flaps and ailerons) and also
between the wings. They truly believe their changes are for the better but
have never experienced what it would be like if they followed the plans. I
had one of those guys land at my strip with no flap or aileron seals on his
582 powered MKIIIC. I watched in horror as he took off using every inch of
my down hill 1400 ft strip and barely cleared the power lines another 1/2
mile beyond.
If you make changes to Homer's design make sure you know what your doing. If
you like it great but make sure you truly test it before you shoot you mouth
off about how great it is to everyone.
Again VGs may help but it would appear it isn't slow flight.
Also we had a wonderful time at Homecoming. Flying around the airport with
NO other place to land surely increases the pucker factor. This Michigan boy
just aint used to not having a landing spot every 1/4 mile.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
>
> From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's
> ability to fly a Kolb.
> > Mike
>
>
> Mike:
>
> We always have a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, rain or shine, calm or
> turbulent.
>
> How much time did you put on your airplane before you put he VGs on?
>
> There are people that make changes to Kolbs before they fly them,
> or.........with very little flight time in them. I often wonder if they
> can really make a good comparison, "before and after", in that situation?
> Do they really know the capabilities of the Kolb in the stock
> configuration?
>
> I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly. I very seldom fly like that
> except at touch down. That is the only time I need to get that close to
> the stall. I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer
> Kolb's wing. Putting any other airplane in that situation would have
> probably put them into an immediate full stall. The old mkIII just
> nibbled away and kept on flying. I don't think my flying had much to do
> with the mkIII's performance Sunday.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
John Hauck wrote:
>
> I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly. I very seldom fly like that
> except at touch down. That is the only time I need to get that close to the
> stall. I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer Kolb's
> wing. Putting any other airplane in that situation would have probably put
> them into an immediate full stall. The old mkIII just nibbled away and kept
> on flying. I don't think my flying had much to do with the mkIII's
> performance Sunday.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> mkIII
Just for what it's worth,
When I first got my FS II, I did a fair bit of flying at minimum controllable airspeed
just to get used to how it flies right on the edge. It really is very
forgiving. When it does finally stall, there's a definite buffet, bump and then
break but as long as I'm in coordinated flight, it just noses down straight
ahead.
Falling leaf stalls are on par with planes that have dihedral in the wing and the
ailerons even still kind of work.....
I don't really know how slow it'll go at MCA but it's really really slow. The only
other planes I've flown that went that slow right below stall were my old
quicksilver and also my trike with the single surface wing (and it had loads of
washout of course).
I read somewhere that Kolb intentionally designed the wing with a low aspect ratio
so it could be built without washout and still be very stable. I can sure
vouch for that at least in my FS II.
I like the definite stall break, since it tells you right away you've exceeded
the critical AOA and you need to correct it.
Even my titan is a little more of a handful in a falling leaf stall and it's a
total sweetheart in terms of stability and handling. The FS II will just mush
down with little bits of rudder and aileron as long as you want.....
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137603#137603
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever |
Hi Richard and all,
Thanks for the question.
The throttle lever on my Firestar II with 460 hours broke just above
where it is welded to the tab. I have submitted a picture of the broken
part to fileshare so those who have Firestar aircraft with similar
throttle levers can see the break to know where they might want to
inspect. Fortunately for me, the lever broke while I was on the ground
because I would not have been able to change the throttle setting had I
been airbourne. The break occurred as I was opening the throttle and it
occurred on a single push with no prior warning.
Picture reference below.
Vince Nicely
Firestar II, 503 Rotax DCDI
Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Was the aftermath of the flight more interesting than usual?
> Or just more challenging?
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Email List Photo Shares"
> <pictures@matronics.com>
> To: "Email List Photo Shares" <pictures@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:51 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: [ Vincent Nicely ] : New Email List Photo Share
> Available!
>
>
>> <pictures@matronics.com>
>>
>>
>> A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>>
>> Poster: Vincent Nicely <vincenic1@embarqmail.com>
>>
>> Lists: Kolb-List
>>
>> Subject: Broken Throttle Lever on Firestar II
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/vincenic1@embarqmail.com.09.25.2007/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> o Main Photo Share Index
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>>
>> o Submitting a Photo Share
>>
>> If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
>> following information along with your email message and files:
>>
>> 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
>> 2) Your Full Name:
>> 3) Your Email Address:
>> 4) One line Subject description:
>> 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
>> 6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
>>
>> Email the information above and your files and photos to:
>>
>> pictures@matronics.com
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Kolb Mark III with 912ULS weights and speeds |
I am in the process of licensing my Kolb LSA and removing the 2 stroke and
installing a new 912ULS.
For those running a 100 hp on a Mark III what are you using for gross weight?
What is your empty weight?
What are your flying speeds?
cruise?
stall?
landing approach?
VX?
VY?
Thanks in advance for all your help.
Dan
t
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Firestar II Broken Throttle Lever |
> The throttle lever on my Firestar II with 460 hours broke just above
> where it is welded to the tab. > Vince Nicely
Vince:
Some years ago I developed a low tech night landing system for my grass
strip. It worked great. I could put the mkIII down right on the money
every time.
One pitch black dark night I came sailing back home from the local airport.
Lined up on my reflectors on final. Pulled back the power and felt the
throttle lever give. It had seperated at the flange and bent backwards.
Throttle was to fast for landing on my short strip, and not enough power to
climb back out through the slot and turn in the trees. I quickly reached
down between the seats and was able to twist the flange and open the
throttle a tad more, enough to get the mkIII to climb. Had Murphy been on
the ball, he would have my single landing light burn out at the same time.
I flew back to 08A, shut down the engine, and dead sticked a good landing.
A couple of my buddies were still at the airport. They were wondering what
the Hell Hauck was doing out on the runway. All they could hear was the
engine rev up and shut down, as I maneuvered my way to the FBO to tie down
for the night.
Early on Old Kolb used 1/4" 4130 tubing for the throttle lever. After a few
breaking, they changed over to 1/4" solid steel rod. Have not had a
throttle problem in many years.
Also, I don't shoot night landings into Gantt International Airport anymore.
;-) Don't fly at night unless it is absolutely necessary.
john h
mkIII
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
It must be that Warp drive prop that lets John fly straight and level with 40 deg
flaps at 3000 rpm.... [Laughing] John definitely don't need any VG's....
he has a magical setup now.
Thinking of taping some VG's on my 150 to see if I can tell any difference after
flying it more than a year.... probably won't make much noticeable difference
there....??
Fun reading.... I always enjoy a good VG debate.... :)
--------
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137611#137611
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
At 10:49 AM 10/2/07 -0400, you wrote:
>
>If you make changes to Homer's design make sure you know what your doing. If
>you like it great but make sure you truly test it before you shoot you mouth
>off about how great it is to everyone.
>
>Again VGs may help but it would appear it isn't slow flight.
>
Rick,
If you have not tried VG's don't knock em.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
> If you have not tried VG's don't knock em.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H:
No one is knocking VG's. We simply did a comparative side by side test
between a mkIII that had them, and one that didn't. I might add the
aircraft had a lot of dissimilarities, weight, configuration, etc.
The results have already been discussed.
That is all the experience I have with them, although I did fly a FSII with
VG's for a very short flight with VG's installed. Forgot they were on there
until I landed and was asked if I tested them. Personally, flying an
unfamiliar aircraft, I could not tell any difference. However, it was not a
test or comparison of with or without.
john h
mkIII
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Installation |
Tom, Thanks for giving me something to consider as I try to find a better
location for my ELT antenna. Having read Jim Weir's book and always trying
for perfection led me to tunnel vision about it. Since it's a rainy day here
on the plains, I get to play with my plane instead of finishing the new
chicken coop. That antenna is moving indoors.
Rick
do not archive
On 10/1/07, The Kuffels <kuffel@cyberport.net> wrote:
>
>
> << There are much better places to mount the ELT antenna than in
> among the cage tubing. >>
>
> Actually, the inside of a large cage like a Kolb is a very good
> place to mount an ELT and its antenna. It is not a good
> electrical location but the problem with ELT antennas is they
> tend to be be removed in a crash. The signal from inside a
> mangled cage is quite usable whereas the signal from an ELT with
> no antenna is non-existent.
>
> Such was the case with many of the several hundred searches I
> flew in Alaska. On the other hand, when I crashed a few years
> ago, the signal from inside the fiberglass tailcone (surrounded
> by bits of metal) was so strong Search & Rescue couldn't zero in
> on it because of all the reflections bouncing off the surrounding
> mountains.
>
> Tom Kuffel
> Whitefish, MT
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 15
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| Subject: | And then there were nine |
I think we lost another Guinea last night. I was so tired when I got home I
forgot to go mark my territory. I could be wrong, Corrigan might be out on
one of his solo wanders. I hope so. I was only able to get a few pieces made
before it started to rain. Just sprinkling right now, but if nothing else,
we can put a length of poultry netting over the top, make a temporary door
and get them into a safe place for the night.
I better go get started vacuuming up water in the hangar.
XXXOOO
Oo-oo Goin' to the hangar with Dad Oo-oo
Meow Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
At 11:36 AM 10/2/07 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
> > If you have not tried VG's don't knock em.
>>
>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>
>Jack H:
>
>No one is knocking VG's. We simply did a comparative side by side test
>between a mkIII that had them, and one that didn't. I might add the
>aircraft had a lot of dissimilarities, weight, configuration, etc.
>
>The results have already been discussed.
>
John,
Then what you are saying is that the dissimilarities made it an invalid
test. The only valid test is a before and after on your own aircraft.
If you are up to it, I will supply you with a set of VG's that can be
temporarily mounted with electricians tape. That way you can fly and record
your stall speed, land, tape on the VG's and the fly again to get your new
slower stall speed. When you find that your stall speed is reduced you can
pass them on to the next doubter.
How many dips are there in a Mark III wing?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
I still can't find what the heck Sea Foam is, but I can get a grasp on this topic.
If VG's reduce the stall speed on my little plane by 5 kts, that is huge. I do
not have the flying skill of a "hawk" so I need every advantage. I have an envelope
addressed to Harrison Design in my out mail-box for a set of them little
plastic triangles.
It is getting cold here so I will not stir up a debate further with a pirep until
next spring.
Anything to enhance slow flight is welcome to me. It is when slow and maneuvering
(usually close to the ground) when bad things tend to happen.
So if $100 keeps the landing gear and my neck straight, it is cheap insurance enhancement
to fly more.
Fly safe Kolb Buddies,
Jim
[I do have VG's on my C340 and would not fly the plane w/o them. They make the
VMC issue "almost" go away and move Blue line down 20 kts to 100. Plus the
plane can carry more w/em. I know that this is an entirely different scenario,
but those little things do dramatically change the operation of this model.]
do not archive
--------
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Firestar II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137647#137647
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
> Then what you are saying is that the dissimilarities made it an invalid
> test. The only valid test is a before and after on your own aircraft.
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H:
No.................I am not saying the dissimilarities made it an invalid
test. Was merely pointing out the differences, primarily in weight, between
Richard's mkIII and my mkIII. On light aircraft, weight makes considerable
difference in performance.
I think my old gal made a slendid showing flying side by side with a
similar, but lighter, Kolb.
No thanks. Have no desire to make a VG test on my airplane. I am more than
happy with the performance of my mkIII.
I never said I doubted VGs. I have said I never found a need for them on
it. I have flown Homer's airplanes for a while and like the way he designed
them, and the way they perform.
"How many dips in the mkIII wing?" Only the one in the pilot's seat! ;-)
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 19
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| Subject: | VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming |
Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the 912
guys.
I demoed the redrive VW engine on my MKIIIC for the attendees at
Homecoming and except for forgetting to retract my flaps a few times I
think we did OK. The engine ( I think ) performs about like a 80 HP 912.
I will agree with everyone that it doesn't have the proven reliability
of the 912. With that said is can be had for $7,000 to $10,000 less. It
doesn't have the startup or shut down shakes. It idles as low as 800 RPM
and was told by a few that it is quieter and better sounding than than a
912. I have never heard it fly by. I had one person say that they were
undecided but after seeing it fly they were sold!
Thanks for all the kind words at homecoming.
One more thing I missed both flights of the direct drive 1/2 VW on the
original Firestar but I'm told that it performed very well. With my
experience with my direct engine I would never guessed it. The weekend
was a learning experience.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
I tried VG's couldn't resist, But Didn't like the taste of em
Ellery in Maine
Building Mk3x
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming |
I was impressed to see you fly it at the Homecomming, it does sound good. I
'm glad there is effort going toward that option on the engine mounts. I wo
uld of been much more impressed if you didn't trailer it in (that said a lo
t too).
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: V
W Deminstration Flights at HomecomingDate: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:41:09 -0400
Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the 912 guy
s.
I demoed the redrive VW engine on my MKIIIC for the attendees at Homecoming
and except for forgetting to retract my flaps a few times I think we did O
K. The engine ( I think ) performs about like a 80 HP 912. I will agree wit
h everyone that it doesn't have the proven reliability of the 912. With tha
t said is can be had for $7,000 to $10,000 less. It doesn't have the startu
p or shut down shakes. It idles as low as 800 RPM and was told by a few tha
t it is quieter and better sounding than than a 912. I have never heard it
fly by. I had one person say that they were undecided but after seeing it f
ly they were sold!
Thanks for all the kind words at homecoming.
One more thing I missed both flights of the direct drive 1/2 VW on the orig
inal Firestar but I'm told that it performed very well. With my experience
with my direct engine I would never guessed it. The weekend was a learning
experience.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming |
Rick N:
Do you think VG guys or 912 guys have the thinnest skin? Or is it VW
guys???
Personally, until I found out the VW with a straight stinger exhaust was
quieter and sounded better than a 912, I was pretty happy with your
demo. ;-)
Seriously, I too like the straight single stinger on your VW. I have
always been partial to them on dune buggies and Formula V's. Nothing
sounds sweeter than one winding out.
I watched the 1/2 VW fly on the FS. It seemed to do a good job. Sorry,
but I did not take time to take a close look at it and the installation.
I used to fly with a friend who flew a N3 Pup and a 1/2 VW. I was
flying a FS with point ign 447. He was always harping on me about how
much more reliable a 4 stroke was than the 447 I was flying. We were
crossing the mountains between my strip and his, 60 miles away. Got a
call on the radio, like, "John, I am going down." Luckily there was a
small hay field to land it. He broke a valve spring and the Pup was
down. If a 912 lost a valve spring, most likely, it would also be going
down. There is no perfect solution, but I am partial to my set up.
Now, as far as an idle contest, I don't have a chance. Mine idles at
1,600 rpm. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the
912 guys.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Ellery:
Try some Monterey Jack Cheese with jalopenos on the VGs. Microwave for
40 seconds. Better than tostistos.
john h
mkIII
I tried VG's couldn't resist, But Didn't like the taste of em
Ellery in Maine
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Ellery,=0A =0AIf you saute' them in SeaFoam and follow with some of Mr. Buf
ord's Scotch they are pretty tasty...=0A=0AMike=0A=0APLEASE=0ADo Not Archiv
e=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "ElleryWeld@aol.com" <ElleryWeld
@aol.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, October 2, 2007 1:
52:08 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge=0A
=0A=0AI tried VG's couldn't resist, But Didn't like the taste of em =0A
=0A Ellery in Maine =0ABuilding Mk3x=0A =0Ado not archive=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A
=================
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming |
David
I have app 25 hours on the pre production model of their redrive. It is
doing well but flying in from Michigan over the area I saw over London
would have said I was STUPID.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:59 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
I was impressed to see you fly it at the Homecomming, it does sound
good. I'm glad there is effort going toward that option on the engine
mounts. I would of been much more impressed if you didn't trailer it in
(that said a lot too).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kolb-List: VW Deminstration Flights at Homecoming
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:41:09 -0400
Now that I have offended the VG folks I going to risk offending the
912 guys.
I demoed the redrive VW engine on my MKIIIC for the attendees at
Homecoming and except for forgetting to retract my flaps a few times I
think we did OK. The engine ( I think ) performs about like a 80 HP 912.
I will agree with everyone that it doesn't have the proven reliability
of the 912. With that said is can be had for $7,000 to $10,000 less. It
doesn't have the startup or shut down shakes. It idles as low as 800 RPM
and was told by a few that it is quieter and better sounding than than a
912. I have never heard it fly by. I had one person say that they were
undecided but after seeing it fly they were sold!
Thanks for all the kind words at homecoming.
One more thing I missed both flights of the direct drive 1/2 VW on
the original Firestar but I'm told that it performed very well. With my
experience with my direct engine I would never guessed it. The weekend
was a learning experience.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
p://forums.matronics.com
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
If you saute them in good black rum, they dissolve!
PLEASE
Do Not Archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
With much fear of flogging this deceased horse a little more.I will
tread on.reluctantly.I will tread on. (sigh)
Regretfully, I was unable to make the Fri. morning flight from Lower
Alabama to London, KY thanks to 20+ mph winds on the ground and 35+ at
3K all on the nose.if the flight was required for life saving measures
or national security I would have soldiered on but for the mere matter
of personal enjoyment and camaraderie amongst fellow brethren on the
wing, I decided 5-ish hours of getting thrown around the cockpit trying
to avoid internal injury from the seatbelts didn't sound like a good use
of a day off from work.heck neither did mowing the grass, but I degress.
That said I didn't get to witness this "test" (of sorts).as has been
stated already there were enough differences in this test to make the
political polls look accurate ;-) (Ever wonder how they can have 2
polls asking the same question and be 10 points off, yet each poll only
has a 3 point margin of error?) I degress again.
Having read the list of differences going on , weights, flaps/no flaps,
power levels, alignment of the planets, etc., etc. etc. (Mr. Pike was
heading home was there luggage involved??? Might have negated some of
the weight.who knows) All that being said, I will state for the record
what that "test" proved.that airplane nuts hanging around a flyin can
think of fun ways to kill time ;-) (My favorite has always been the
feather duster toss and the bean bag toss at the cardboard targets.)
Anyway I propose another "test" that will require no work
whatsoever.Think back to the couple of dozen or so guys that have tried
the VG thing in one form or another on just this list.do you remember a
single one that flew there own plane before and after VG and said, "Crap
that was a waste of a couple of hours and $100" and pulled them off?
I haven't heard of a one.on the Kolb list, the Kitfox list, the Titan
list, or the RANS S7 list. Oh, and the guy who mentioned maybe trying
them on a C152.I've flown one of them before and after the VG install
and I will say it was an improved handling airplane on the slow end.
(Now why the VG STC on a C152 cost the $800 some-odd dollars is beyond
me.Lord keep me from GA aircraft ownership.)
I'll take the opinion of those many guys that HAVE tried them and flown
the same airplane with and without them over the opinions of 1 or 2 that
have not tossed in their couple of hours of spare time to see.
I have brushed my teeth a couple of times a day for my entire life, but
that doesn't make me a dentist. Having lots of hours in the same plane
but exactly zero hours in that same plane with VG's doesn't make that
person knowledgeable of VG effectiveness either.
Anyway.That is my opinion of a reasonable test.and opinions are like a
certain bodily orifice.everybody has one.so there ;-)
Jeremy Casey
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. It seems they can't see the
forest for the trees. One plane was with full flaps and the other none. Why didn't
both fly the same? Was the angle of attack the same on both? It sounds like
one was constantly on the edge of stalling while the other wasn't. One can
certainly fly a lot slower with flaps on then retracted! Which had more or any
aileron control at or near the stall. One plane was heavy compared to the other.
Which needed more power to maintain level flight? I'm sure the one with lots
of flaps on! A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly
VERY slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level
and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly.
I have had VGs on two planes. I can say very truthfully that they each flew better
(much better) with them. That is not to say these planes weren't well designed
in the first place. Any design in this world can be improved. Be it a Kolb
wing or a Stealth bomber. Especially on a fat winged, slow plane VGs can and
will do wonders for the handling of your fat winged slow plane. I guarantee
if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the venting.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137695#137695
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Jeremy:
>From a previous msg today:
I never said I doubted VGs. I have said I never found a need for them
on
it. I have flown Homer's airplanes for a while and like the way he
designed
them, and the way they perform.
I think my old gal made a slendid showing flying side by side with a
similar, but lighter, Kolb.
Should add to the above: ........but lighter, Kolb with VGs.
I know it is difficult for VG'ers, but over the years and hours, I have
not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's airplanes.
Thanks for your attention,
john h
mkIII
I have brushed my teeth a couple of times a day for my entire life,
but that doesn't make me a dentist. Having lots of hours in the same
plane but exactly zero hours in that same plane with VG's doesn't make
that person knowledgeable of VG effectiveness either.
Jeremy Casey
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
One more mention of Seefram and I epoxy my kybd!
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Hi Roger:
"> Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. "
If you are referring to me. I probably am stubborn. Never been known to be
a sheep and get in line.
See if you can read and understand this Roger:
The flyoff was between me and Richard P. He has VGs. I don't. No attempt
to have two identical mkIIIs. I can assure you we both had full aileron
control. In fact, my old fat gal will fall out of the sky in a full stall
and still have roll control. All Kolb models will do that. They have done
that since I started flying the US in 1984. Rudder does not fit into the
equation in a Kolb. If you call 3000 rpm with a 912ULS "more power", OK.
" A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY
slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level
and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly."
Roger, this comment above just blows me away. Do you realize what you would
have to do to hang my airplane on the prop? It is a pusher. The high
thrust line a minimal speed pushes the nose down, not pull or push it up.
Anyhow, I was flying with 40 degrees of flaps, no rudder, and a little
aileron. Don't need much aileron at one pubic hair on the plus side of the
stall. Dangerous, unless only using rudder and no aileron?????? Horse
crap!!! Kolbs are not rudder airplanes. They are aileron airplanes. They
do not maintain roll control with rudder. Maybe for a few seconds, but when
they start to drop a wing, rudder only aggrevates the situation.
"which can flip you on your back quickly."
The above is a totally rediculous statement. Are you speaking of getting a
Kolb on its back by flying slowly with aileron??? I didn't know there was
any other way to fly it. Have you ever tried to get a Kolb on its back?
Throwing an elephant over your shoulder and on to its back would be a much
easier task.
"I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the
venting."
That's ok. Your vent did not make much sense.
Now. What does it take to get it through your thick skull that I am most
happy with my fat old mkIII. If they make your airplane fly better, I am
very happy for you. Based on your comments above, you probably need them.
BTW: Are you flying a Kolb?
john h
mkIII
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
It is obvious to me that the only John will ever fly with VG's on Miss P'Fer is
for someone to sneak out to Haucks holler one night, put them on, and hope he
does not preflight the next day [Wink]
That being said, I hope I see John H. at Sun and Fun , or some other fly in and
he can take my MK III around the patch and see what he thinks about a MKIII with
the VG's. My plane is pretty close to his weight wise, and with the same
engine and prop, but with VG's. John H knows these planes so well, it would
be very informative to me to see what his opinion of them on the MK III are.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137721#137721
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: And then there were nine |
What ???
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137723#137723
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly on Ebay |
Steve,
That sure is he FlagFly on Ebay...WOW..
I traded it to those fellas this spring for the KitFox..which I am enjoying immensely,
about 60 hours in 3 months, and Sue has been flying with me too! finally
after 28 years!...(as long as we dont care to see in front of us...which she
complains about!)
I just talked to those guys in Tenn a couple of weeks ago and one told me he was
enjoying the Kolb....???
Well who knows...he had alot of time...several thousand hours in DC-3's.... and
a piper 140 and a real nice straight tail 172 in the hangar also...maybe he
decided the Kolb was just to light for him???
Anyway...John...I got a kick out of those pics of you in the Kolb Demo Fly' mixed
in there in the ad...
It seems that he and his partner didnt pay enough attention to my bird to even
know what it looked like...or the differences between the 2. I figgered that ugly
ole pilot in the demo bird would give it away tho!!!!
I gotta tell you fellas...I really considered Flying down to the Homecoming, as
I miss you all.... but figgered I would never live down the razzin from Trav
and Donnie about flying a blind kitfox to a Kolb party.
maybe, if I still have it next year...I will get some nerve!
Been thinking about those goodies on the dessert table alot!
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137733#137733
Message 35
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| Subject: | Movies from TNK Homecoming |
Here is a couple of the MarkIII's that made it to the Homecoming.
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137753#137753
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jb_at_tnk_2007_a_117.wmv
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jh_at_tnk_2007_b_132.wmv
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: And then there were nine |
See comment to Rick Nielsen. We have a cougar that's been making dinner of
our guinea hens. Sorry about that guys, my girl friend's e-mail address is
right below the Kolb address on my quick contact list.
Rick
On 10/2/07, JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> What ???
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
> !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137723#137723
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Group, Here is what I do not understand. On Richards and on the Cub
Crafter site, the outboard VGs are moved forward. On a 737 airliner, they
are moved aft in the aileron area. Someone please explain. John is right
about the Kolb not being a rudder airplane. However, mine is because I
added lifting winglet to the wings. Now, it flys like a Champ or any other
airplane with dihedral. The downside is, of course, in the crosswind
landing situations. But with good aileron technique which can provide
useful adverse yaw to hold runway alignment, the lifting winglets should
not be a problem. Mine is still an aileron airplane too. I will add VGs
soon, but I wish that I knew more about the outboard locations. My interst
is not so much in flying slower (I stall at exactly 40 mph with no tendency
to drop a wing). What I am looking for is a more progressive stall so that
my gear will quit bending when the tail wheel hits first. I am machining
fiberglass gear legs now, but they look kind of weak. We shall see.
Vic in Sacramento
Original Message:
-----------------
From: John Hauck jhauck@elmore.rr.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
Hi Roger:
"> Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. "
If you are referring to me. I probably am stubborn. Never been known to
be
a sheep and get in line.
See if you can read and understand this Roger:
The flyoff was between me and Richard P. He has VGs. I don't. No attempt
to have two identical mkIIIs. I can assure you we both had full aileron
control. In fact, my old fat gal will fall out of the sky in a full stall
and still have roll control. All Kolb models will do that. They have done
that since I started flying the US in 1984. Rudder does not fit into the
equation in a Kolb. If you call 3000 rpm with a 912ULS "more power", OK.
" A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY
slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level
and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly."
Roger, this comment above just blows me away. Do you realize what you
would
have to do to hang my airplane on the prop? It is a pusher. The high
thrust line a minimal speed pushes the nose down, not pull or push it up.
Anyhow, I was flying with 40 degrees of flaps, no rudder, and a little
aileron. Don't need much aileron at one pubic hair on the plus side of the
stall. Dangerous, unless only using rudder and no aileron?????? Horse
crap!!! Kolbs are not rudder airplanes. They are aileron airplanes. They
do not maintain roll control with rudder. Maybe for a few seconds, but
when
they start to drop a wing, rudder only aggrevates the situation.
"which can flip you on your back quickly."
The above is a totally rediculous statement. Are you speaking of getting a
Kolb on its back by flying slowly with aileron??? I didn't know there was
any other way to fly it. Have you ever tried to get a Kolb on its back?
Throwing an elephant over your shoulder and on to its back would be a much
easier task.
"I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the
venting."
That's ok. Your vent did not make much sense.
Now. What does it take to get it through your thick skull that I am most
happy with my fat old mkIII. If they make your airplane fly better, I am
very happy for you. Based on your comments above, you probably need them.
BTW: Are you flying a Kolb?
john h
mkIII
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| Subject: | Movies from TNK Homecoming |
Hi John,
Nice video's what a beautiful landing strip, thanks for posting.
Bob D.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Williamson
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:53 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Movies from TNK Homecoming
Here is a couple of the MarkIII's that made it to the Homecoming.
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137753#137753
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jb_at_tnk_2007_a_117.wmv
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jh_at_tnk_2007_b_132.wmv
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