Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:25 AM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Jeremy Casey)
2. 07:29 AM - Re: Jim Swan's AOL Slide Show (icrashrc)
3. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Ed Chmielewski)
4. 11:38 AM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Thom Riddle)
5. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
6. 12:54 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (jb92563)
7. 01:04 PM - Re: 582 stater plate any one ?? rick (jb92563)
8. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (David Key)
9. 01:31 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (beauford T)
10. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Richard Girard)
11. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Richard Pike)
12. 04:29 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (jb92563)
13. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Jack B. Hart)
14. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: floats 007 (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
15. 06:15 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Thom Riddle)
16. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
17. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
18. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
19. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: floats 007 (N27SB@aol.com)
20. 07:06 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Richard Girard)
21. 08:52 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (henry.voris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
As long as i have been flying Kolbs, I still bend gear legs. Not
because
they are poorly designed. They were never designed to be stalled and
dropped in a couple feet or more above the ground. I screwed up and
bent a
gear leg this summer because I stalled the mkIII too high with a wing
low.
That will get them quicker than stalling and falling in a wings level
attitude where both gear legs are sharing the load. Looks like you
dropped
yours in on one leg too.
Let us know how your experiment turns out.
john h
mkIII
<snip>
With much fear of the poke the angered dog with the stick one more time
syndrome setting in...
Could I take this opportunity to point out that those VG things soften
the stall a good bit and greatly lessen the chances of bending gear
legs??!!??!!
If you work'em hard enough they also slice and dice and can make Julian
fries ;-)
Jeremy "I'm so ashamed" Casey
P.S. I only sent this message to try to secure the VG thread as the
all-time winner of longest thread and most non-"controversial" debate
ever.
P.S.S. Pennzoil sucks!!! (Will that get a good 2-stroke oil fight
going?)
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| Subject: | Re: Jim Swan's AOL Slide Show |
I was surprised to read of the bolt working it's way loose as i hadn't seen anything
about that in 4 years of reading this list. I'll plan to leave it as designed.
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Hi Listers,
Jeremy's taken the words right out of my mouth..
I fly GA planes as a contractor (hired gun for
owners/corporations), and some of the piston-powered single and twins
have VG's. Having flown a given aircraft with and without VG's, and not
having a monetary investment one way or the other, I can state that the
VG's totally transform the aircraft. Most of the Cessna and Piper twins
are notoriously underpowered, and having VG's drops Vmca (single-engine
minimum-control speed) significantly, making the airplane much safer in
a dangerous situation.
On the singles, also improves low-speed (takeoff as well as
landing) feel and performance. No degradation at all in cruise. None.
Before I flew VG's, I too thought they were snake-oil (think
Seafoam). The proof is in the puddin'.
Those who don't use them, you don't know what you're missing.
When my MkII gets rebuilt, it'll have them. Mainly to save on gear
legs.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremy Casey
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge
(Snip)
What you fellows saw at the great "test" was 2 different planes, flown
in different configurations, at different weights, at different power
settings.in other words, from an engineering standpoint you saw
nothing!!! The flaps alone can account for a huge increase in max Cl.
If the ground rules had been set beforehand, full flaps/no flaps, idle
power only, load the planes to similar weights, etc. it would have been
in the neighborhood of a valid test, but the true VALID test is flying
the same plane WITHOUT them and then WITH them.no other differences
except the effect from the VG's.
(Snip)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Jack,
I very much enjoyed your detailed description of calculations and intended remedy
for gear leg bending. Please keep us posted on how that works out.
For what its worth, on my recent stall from a few feet into a pothole at Bob Bean's
field which broke the left wheel axle fitting and resulted in me ending the
landing upside down, the longer than standard 4130 tubing gear legs were not
bent in the process. This, even when the leg without the axle fitting dug into
the ground as I was still moving forward at about 30 mph.
I've become a believer in heat treated 4130 tubing gear legs. I have no idea if
they are heavier or lighter than the stock gear legs, which I know is always
important to you for staying under 254#.
[/i]
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the
only means."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138809#138809
Attachments:
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
the longer than standard 4130 tubing gear legs were not bent in the
process.
> Thom in Buffalo
Hi Thom:
To what RC rating were your gear legs heat treated?
I have been using 48 RC since we started experimenting with and using 4130
gear legs in 1988, on my FS and mkIII.
IIRC the weight of the mkIII aluminum legs were about the same or a tad more
than the 4130 legs.
I use 1 1/8" .120" wall 4130 legs on the mkIII and also on my FS.
In addition, my tailwheel strut is .120" wall 3/4" RC 48. I think the OD is
3/4.
john h
mkIII
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Yes, Yes and the people that wrote the Bible also insisted that the World was flat
and that the Sun and planets orbited around the Earth.
Here is the first clue: "Impossible" .... "I'm Possible"....!!!!!
Boundaries exist for the bold and questioning types to break through and disprove.
Also...never listen to people that have NOT gone up against the boundary in person
and can not speak from their own experience as they know not what they speak
of.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stater plate any one ?? rick |
Here is a link to check out with manuals online for a good number of engines:
Check the Advisories as well to see that you are up to date:
[url] http://www.ultralightnews.ca/rotax582 [/url]
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
> Yes, Yes and the people that wrote the Bible also insisted that the World
was flat and that the Sun and planets orbited around the Earth.> Also...ne
ver listen to people that have NOT gone up against the boundary in person a
nd can not speak from their own experience as they know not what they speak
of.
Hey, you can save us a step! Take your own advise and don't talk about thin
gs you haven't gone up against in person!
Since you didn't speak to the writers of the Bible in person and you don't
know Greek or Hebrew and you apparently don't know God then you should shut
your trap.
If you dont want to take your advise take mine, keep religion out of it.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
This here is downright profound.... sure you got the right List, Ray....?
:-)
Beauford
Do Not Archive
p.s. Gotta throw the flag on this one because of content... will not add
to the Grand VG Challenge tally...
b.
Yes, Yes and the people that wrote the Bible also insisted that the World
was flat and that the Sun and planets orbited around the Earth.
Here is the first clue: "Impossible" .... "I'm Possible"....!!!!!
Boundaries exist for the bold and questioning types to break through and
disprove.
Also...never listen to people that have NOT gone up against the boundary in
person and can not speak from their own experience as they know not what
they speak of.--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138821#138821
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Thom, Of course, the other side of this coin, as Travis reminded me, is that
aluminum gear legs save cages.
No use speculating on how your arrival would have gone if you'd have had
aluminum legs, but I've done some real whack's, straightened the legs that
night, and flown the next day.
Rick
On 10/8/07, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> the longer than standard 4130 tubing gear legs were not bent in the
> process.
>
> > Thom in Buffalo
>
> Hi Thom:
>
> To what RC rating were your gear legs heat treated?
>
> I have been using 48 RC since we started experimenting with and using 4130
> gear legs in 1988, on my FS and mkIII.
>
> IIRC the weight of the mkIII aluminum legs were about the same or a tad
> more
> than the 4130 legs.
>
> I use 1 1/8" .120" wall 4130 legs on the mkIII and also on my FS.
>
> In addition, my tailwheel strut is .120" wall 3/4" RC 48. I think the OD
> is
> 3/4.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Ray Ol' Buddy, who has been blowing fairy dust up your skirt? Where do you
get this stuff?
The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God
is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as an
orb.
In Job 26:7, it says that God hangs the earth upon nothing, and in Job
26:10, it says that the boundary between light and darkness forms a circle
or an arc across the face of the planet. Which is obviously not apparent
unless the Earth is being viewed from space, and accurately described from
that vantage point...
Never confuse what some curmudgeon says about the Bible, with what it
actually says. It didn't work for the Pharisees, and it still doesn't.
Now can we go back to arguing over Seafoam and VG's instead of embarrassing
ourselves?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Pastor, Blountville Community Chapel
----- Original Message -----
From: "jb92563" <jb92563@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 3:53 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented
>
> Yes, Yes and the people that wrote the Bible also insisted that the World
> was flat and that the Sun and planets orbited around the Earth.
>
> Here is the first clue: "Impossible" .... "I'm Possible"....!!!!!
>
> Boundaries exist for the bold and questioning types to break through and
> disprove.
>
> Also...never listen to people that have NOT gone up against the boundary
> in person and can not speak from their own experience as they know not
> what they speak of.
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138821#138821
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Ooops sorry folks.....should have left religion out of it.
Not bashing religion.....just meant to illustrate that most things are possible...
Ouch!
Even our prop tips can break the sound barrier...I wonder if they never experienced
that before the sound barrier was actually broken by an aircraft?
Probably something they just did not recognize at the time.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
At 11:37 AM 10/8/07 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I've become a believer in heat treated 4130 tubing gear legs. I have no idea if
they are heavier or lighter than the stock gear legs, which I know is always
important to you for staying under 254#.
>
Thom,
I really don't want to get away from the aluminum legs. They are a great safety
feature in that they do bend so easily. It saves the cage and the pilot. I
want the cable to act as a fuse that breaks when the load becomes too great.
This will absorb a lot of the impact energy from a plop, and then, if necessary,
the leg can bend to absorb even more.
The cable will have little to no effect for dropping a wheel into a hole. I see
this as desirable. I would want the leg to bend to the rear to save me and
the cage. If, I can remember to use five degrees of flaperon, I should be going
about 26 mph under no wind conditions.
The good thing about bending gear legs is that it makes you re-evaluate your landing
technique. Lately, I have been making very, very good landings.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 14
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Steve what kind Of floats do you have on your Firefly? what motor
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
John,
I have no idea to what RC the legs were heat treated to because it was done by
someone else before I bought it. I only know that it was done or the tubes would
have buckled in a heartbeat without the heat treating. They look sort of funny
because even with the FS empty, they are slightly bowed and have visually
obvious negative camber but no toe-in/out that I can tell. When loaded with me
and fuel I'm sure it looks even stranger but they track straight and true and
don't bounce much at all with imperfect touchdown. I expect that with much use
on paved runways, where I'm located, the inside sides of the tires will wear
first, then I'll turn them around and wear out the other side.
Great gear legs is all I can say. If my pothole landing did not result in damaged
sockets it is unlikely I'll ever have that problem, without breaking a lot
more too.
Almost done with the wingtip structural repair. Boom tube is next.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the
only means."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Thom
What is wrong with your Boom Tube? that you have to do a structural repair on
that sounds scary
Ellery or Curious George on this one
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
They look sort of funny because even with the FS empty, they are slightly
bowed and have visually obvious negative camber
> --------
> Thom in Buffalo
Thom:
The 4130 legs can be pressed straight or a little past straight to give you
some positive camber. Not only does it look much better, but when loaded up
from landing forces, the positive camber will get pulled toward neutral
camber and load everthing more evenly.
Negative camber makes the airplane look like it just finished making a hard
landing.
One can also persuade the axles to bend the wheels back to positive camber
by blocking up the gear leg/axle socket, pulling off the wheel, slipping a
piece of water pipe over the axle snugly, and stepping on the pipe. That is
how I kept my FS axles happy.
john h
mkIII
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
> The 4130 legs can be pressed straight or a little past straight to give
you
> some positive camber.
Gang:
Forgot to add something to the last.
Not a good idea to try flying with 4130 gear legs that have not been heat
treated. Prior to heat treating they will be extremely stiff, and bend
permanently if stressed to much.
After heat treating the legs become very springy, because they are springs.
At 48 RC they make a good spring, but when pushed over the limit, they will
bend before they break. I do not know where that RC number is that will
make them brittle. I have had great luck with 48 RC.
john h
mkIII
Message 19
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Aluminum Czech floats and a 447
Steve B
Firefly 007/Floats
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Ray, if you've ever heard a T-6 take off you've heard a prop tip going
supersonic. I'm told the TU-95 Bear does the same and the racket from 8
props and 32 prop tips is amazing.
And then there's the story that a pilot at Muroc in an F-86 nosed over into
a dive and a shallow boom was heard in the valley below on or about October
10, 1947. Even if it happened, Yeager was the first guy to do it in level
flight, so he gets the credit.
Rick
On 10/8/07, jb92563 <jb92563@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ooops sorry folks.....should have left religion out of it.
>
> Not bashing religion.....just meant to illustrate that most things are
> possible...
>
> Ouch!
>
> Even our prop tips can break the sound barrier...I wonder if they never
> experienced that before the sound barrier was actually broken by an
> aircraft?
>
> Probably something they just did not recognize at the time.
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138867#138867
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
Ray,
You said,"...OK next year some one is going to install REAL high lift low speed
devices like leading edge Slats right?"
I know a pilot who built a 701 in Arizona... After flying it for a while. he took
the leading edge slats off the plane and installed VG's. He claims lower stall
and higher cruise speeds ( I don't recall the exact numbers but it was significant.).
Henry
FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
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