Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:08 AM - Re: Re: floats 007 (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
2. 02:55 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (pat ladd)
3. 04:30 AM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Thom Riddle)
4. 05:31 AM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Richard Pike)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
6. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
7. 07:25 AM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Thom Riddle)
8. 07:45 AM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge (Mark Shimei)
9. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
10. 08:32 AM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Ron Hoyt)
11. 10:36 AM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Thom Riddle)
12. 01:25 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (APilot@webtv.net)
13. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (chris davis)
14. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
15. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
16. 01:52 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (WillUribe@aol.com)
17. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Richard Girard)
18. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Richard Girard)
19. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (chris davis)
20. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
21. 02:45 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (John Hauck)
22. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Eugene Zimmerman)
23. 03:33 PM - firefly (chris davis)
24. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (herbgh@juno.com)
25. 03:55 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Terry)
26. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (John Hauck)
27. 04:04 PM - Re: firefly (Bob Noyer)
28. 04:14 PM - Re: firefly (John Hauck)
29. 05:54 PM - How many Ultrastars? (Dana Hague)
30. 06:01 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Jack B. Hart)
31. 06:37 PM - Re: firefly (chris davis)
32. 06:45 PM - Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (Richard Girard)
33. 06:55 PM - Re: firefly (chris davis)
34. 07:07 PM - Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented (Larry Bourne)
35. 07:51 PM - Re: firefly (Bob Noyer)
36. 08:25 PM - Re: firefly (Bob Noyer)
37. 09:04 PM - Re: Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
Message 1
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I have flown a sky raider with Czech floats and a 447. they are a great
combination for a light plane. I have flown a firefly and owned a firestar kxp
but never flown a ultrastar . malcolm
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God
is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as an
orb.>>
Hi,
I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange
reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after giving a
lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said "
You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an
elephant which is standing on a turtle"
"Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case
what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that "
said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down"
Cheers
Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Ellery (aka Curious George),
Along with the relatively minor wing tip damage, the nose cone was destroyed and
the front of the cage was bent as was the left upper longeron, one wing strut
bowed, the sacrifical PowerFin prop was destroyed (blades only) and the boom
tube broke just aft of the H-truss. Bob Bean repaired the cage before I removed
the remains from his place where the incident occurred. The engine is fine
and the empenage was untouched.
John,
Thanks for the pointers about pre-stressing the 4130 tubes to remove the static
negative camber. Once I get the FS flying again next spring, I'll see about fixing
that. It DOES look strange.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the
only means."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138939#138939
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
And this rather pointless missive reminds me of Proverbs 26:5.
Which is why I wrote my previous post.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
----- Original Message -----
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not
Invented
>
> The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God
> is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as
> an
> orb.>>
>
> Hi,
> I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange
> reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after giving a
> lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said "
> You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an
> elephant which is standing on a turtle"
> "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case
> what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that "
> said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down"
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...)
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
> Along with the relatively minor wing tip damage,
> --------
> Thom in Buffalo
Thom:
Sounds, to me, like a major accident.
Your FS1 a 5 rib wing?
john h
mkIII
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Now Im wondering if there wer any survivors sounds like a Total wreck
Ellery
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
John,
Yes it is a FS1 w/ 5 rib wing.
When you start listing the damage it sounds worse than it was. One wing received
no damage at all nor did the tail. Yes it is a good bit of work to fix but nothing
like building from scratch. The only bodily damage to me was very bloody
shins from the instrument panel trying to occupy the space reserved for my legs.
All healed now.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the
only means."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138962#138962
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge |
When I bought my twinstar several years ago, I was not impressed by the SLOW
SPEED handling.. Any turn more than 20 deg resulted in a mush and almost
complete loss of aileron control. This required full deflection to correct
the turn. I am used to flying a Phantom, so I thought this was the way the
Kolb design flew.
Then just for my own personal amusement, I cut some VGs from plastic shim
stock and taped them on, took about 80 or so.
I didn't know what to expect on the first flight, so I was careful on roll
out...WOW!!! plane jumped off in 1/4 less distance and the angle of climb
was about 10-15 degrees more with no buffet or aileron mush. I could fly it
around 45 and make 60 degree banks with no mush or lack of control. Landings
were different. I didn't plop it down like before and could lower my
approach speed.
Yes, I checked the rigging, control throws, CG, and lateral balance. Added a
5lb weight to the right wing to balance me out sitting on the left side.
Mark....Who is going to see Big Lar in New Mexico on Wednesday or Friday.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
> When you start listing the damage it sounds worse than it was.
> --------
> Thom in Buffalo
Thom:
I have to disagree with you.
The damage you describe indicates the FS took some tremendous hits. The
tailboom does not snap unless there was another action that caused it. Did
the tailboom fail laterally or vertically?
If it failed laterally toward the tip of the wing that took the hit, I have
no idea how much stress was placed on the wing prior to the tailboom
failing.
The ribs of the FS were constructed of .028" wall 5/16" 6061. Five of the
little rib noses carry the flight loads. If they decide to come out of
column, the leading edge will possibly fail up and rearward to the main
spar.
The reason I am concerned is because this is what happened to my own FS in
flight.
On two occassions, that I can remember, I got the right wing tip. Was able
to repair it both times without removing all the fabric. To have more than
perceived damage in the wing never concerned me until after I survived a
failure of both wing leading edges. The right wing failed (which had been
previously damaged and repaired), followed almost simultaneously by the left
wing.
I might add, I never had a 5" tailboom fail on me, but I did snap a 6"
tailboom when I crashed on the tip of the left wing, which took all the
initial impact. It failed left and toward the left wing tip.
Might be a good idea to consider some suggestions I made recently to insure
there is more than adquate lateral bracing of the leading edges of both
wings.
I never considered a wing failure on my FS until it was too late. The
thought of flying the way I did, back then, on those little wings, still
scares me. It has been more than 17 years ago.
Give me a call and we can discuss this in more detail if you wish.
john h
mkIII
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Jack
One of the energy absorption features of the spreading struts is the
scrubbing of the tires on the ground for spring strut planes like the
Cesnas. This is the principal dampening mechanism for the bouncing of
the plane down the runway during landing.
If you are seriously looking at the design of wheel struts, take a look
at "Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft" Vol I by Ladislao Pazmany,
ISBN 0-9616777-0-8. Chapter 9 will walk you through the FAA FAR23
requirements. While you don't need to meet these requirements you
should understand their implications.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack B. Hart<mailto:jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com<mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:02 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement
<jbhart@onlyinternet.net<mailto:jbhart@onlyinternet.net>>
FireFlyer's
After lightly plopping my FireFly and being surprised as to how easy
it was
to bend the legs, I started thinking about how to support the existing
legs.
I took some measurements, made some assumptions, and ran some
numbers. I
found that at gross weight the gear legs can support a 1.8G to 3.4G
landing.
Where the 1.8G represents landing on a very slick surface, and the
3.4G
represents landing on dry pavement. The FireFly landing gear is very
tire
to surface friction dependent in that there is nothing but the legs to
keep
the wheels from spreading.
I looked at attaching a 1/8 inch diameter cable to the axle to leg
attachment bolt and running it to either the leg attachment bolt in
the cage
or to the opposite leg just below the socket. By doing this, the 1.8G
improved to 3.9G for the leg attachment bolt, and to 5.2G when
connecting to
the top of the opposite leg just below the socket.
This may be a good low cost and light weight improvement. More about
how
these numbers were calculated can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly134.html<http://www.thirdsh
ift.com/jack/firefly/firefly134.html>
When, I get the parts fabricated and installed, I will put up another
page.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
John H,
I truly appreciate your comments. I know you are looking out for me and sharing
your experience graciously. Thanks. Attached are the photos of the damaged areas,
including the right wing tip, the nose, and the boom tube.
Bob Bean witnessed the arrival so he may be in a position to add to this conversation.
I understand why the boom broke the way it did but could not communicate
it effectively to Bob Bean even when he saw the whole thing so I'm not sure
I can communicate it to you and the rest of the group.
Picture this, if you can:
You have a long stick with heavy weights on each end (boom tube with empenage on
one end and cage etc. on other end). Somewhere sort of near the middle of the
stick you have two smaller sticks(gear legs) attached to it that extend downwards
as the stick is falling (more or less horizontally). Remember I stalled
2-3 feet above the ground. The two sticks attached to the big stick hits the ground
first and the momentum of the heavy weights on each end want to keep going
when the short sticks stop dropping downward. The result is a tremendous bending
moment in the middle of the big stick. One of the photos shows where the
big stick gave up the effort to resist the bending moment.... at the aft end
of the H-truss.
The wing tip damage was confined to the outer most full rib, the stabilizing tubes
going from the end of the main spar and the wing tip bow, the two most outbard
false ribs, the wing tip bow and about two feet of the leading edge tube.
All of the full ribs have the aluminum angle braces at the upper and lower camber
going from the main spar to the leading edge tube. The new full rib I bought
from Travis did not come with the angles but I'm adding them to the replaced
full rib. I thought they would have come with the rib but they did not.
I've already done prop flange run-out check and closely examined the gearbox for
cracks and it is clean. No damage to the engine nor the tail nor the left wing
except for a slight bow in the left wing strut, which will be replaced.
Any more thoughts on this you might have will be welcome.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the
only means."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138982#138982
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00384_935.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00386_168.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00389_203.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00390_198.jpg
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
I have tried the cables between the wheel axles on a Mark III Classic.
They work great. I am sure that some cruising speed is lost. I intend
to put a fairing over them. I now use one 7/64" and two 1/16" cables so
that they will break at different times when overstressed. On one
landing recently, I did not account for the wind gradient cause by a 25
mph headwind and dropped it in hard. Both 7/64" tension wires ripped,
but the gear leg did not bend. That proved a point to me. Most agree
that wheel landings are the way to go. I definitely agree. These hard
landings are probably having a negative effect on the boom tube. I was
wondering how to inspect it. Vic in Sacramento
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
John , Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny wings" o
n your firestar, I take it I don't remember but you had a5 rib Firestar did
n't you ?how do the wings on a Firefly compare to a 5 rib fire star ? I kno
w they are a lot longer but being so what do you think ? Just asking before
I order , Your friend , Chris=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro
m: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent:
Tuesday, October 9, 2007 11:05:45 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly
Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement=0A=0A=0A--> Kolb-List message posted
by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>=0A=0A=0A=0A> When you start listing
the damage it sounds worse than it was.=0A> --------=0A> Thom in Buffalo
=0A=0AThom:=0A=0AI have to disagree with you.=0A=0AThe damage you describe
indicates the FS took some tremendous hits. The =0Atailboom does not snap
unless there was another action that caused it. Did =0Athe tailboom fail l
aterally or vertically?=0A=0AIf it failed laterally toward the tip of the w
ing that took the hit, I have =0Ano idea how much stress was placed on the
wing prior to the tailboom =0Afailing.=0A=0AThe ribs of the FS were constru
cted of .028" wall 5/16" 6061. Five of the =0Alittle rib noses carry the f
light loads. If they decide to come out of =0Acolumn, the leading edge wil
l possibly fail up and rearward to the main =0Aspar.=0A=0AThe reason I am c
oncerned is because this is what happened to my own FS in =0Aflight.=0A=0AO
n two occassions, that I can remember, I got the right wing tip. Was able
=0Ato repair it both times without removing all the fabric. To have more t
han =0Aperceived damage in the wing never concerned me until after I surviv
ed a =0Afailure of both wing leading edges. The right wing failed (which h
ad been =0Apreviously damaged and repaired), followed almost simultaneously
by the left =0Awing.=0A=0AI might add, I never had a 5" tailboom fail on m
e, but I did snap a 6" =0Atailboom when I crashed on the tip of the left wi
ng, which took all the =0Ainitial impact. It failed left and toward the le
ft wing tip.=0A=0AMight be a good idea to consider some suggestions I made
recently to insure =0Athere is more than adquate lateral bracing of the lea
ding edges of both =0Awings.=0A=0AI never considered a wing failure on my F
S until it was too late. The =0Athought of flying the way I did, back then
, on those little wings, still =0Ascares me. It has been more than 17 year
s ago.=0A=0AGive me a call and we can discuss this in more detail if you wi
==========0A=0A=0A _________________________________
___________________________________________________=0ATonight's top picks.
What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.=0Ahttp
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
> Picture this, if you can:
> You have a long stick with heavy weights on each end (boom tube with
> empenage on one end and cage etc. on other end). Somewhere sort of near
> the middle of the stick you have two smaller sticks(gear legs) attached to
> it that extend downwards as the stick is falling (more or less
> horizontally). Remember I stalled 2-3 feet above the ground. The two
> sticks attached to the big stick hits the ground first and the momentum of
> the heavy weights on each end want to keep going when the short sticks
> stop dropping downward. The result is a tremendous bending moment in the
> middle of the big stick. One of the photos shows where the big stick gave
> up the effort to resist the bending moment.... at the aft end of the
> H-truss.
>
> The wing tip damage was confined to the outer most full rib, the
> stabilizing tubes going from the end of the main spar and the wing tip
> bow, the two most outbard false ribs, the wing tip bow and about two feet
> of the leading edge tube. All of the full ribs have the aluminum angle
> braces at the upper and lower camber going from the main spar to the
> leading edge tube. The new full rib I bought from Travis did not come with
> the angles but I'm adding them to the replaced full rib. I thought they
> would have come with the rib but they did not.
>
> --------
> Thom in Buffalo
Thom:
Looks like you have it all figured out.
Let me be blunt, if I may.
Based on what little experience I have crashing Kolbs, your crash rates
right up there with a hard, very serious crash. You are lucky you walked
away with only bruised shins.
Your idea of how the airplane is set up is somewhat askew from mine. The
tailboom butts up against the gear leg sockets into a steel ring that is
welded to them. The legs are inside these sockets. They are at the forward
end, not in the middle. The center of the H brace is about (WAG) 1/4 to 1/3
of the boom from the forward end.
The tailsection is not that heavy, acts to dampen some of the inertia during
a crash as it moves through the air laterally.
>From the looks of the right wing tip, that is what stopped the forward
motion, in conjunction with the nose of the fuselage. This is based on
damage I see in your photos. If the gear legs and/or their sockets did not
fail rearward in the crash, it was because the airplane was on its nose and
right wing tip. The gear legs probably did not dig in. When the legs made
contact with the ground, the tail came up and the nose and right wing tip
contacted and stuck in the ground. I am familiar with the terrain at Bob's
airstrip. I think the soil and sod would be perfect to stop a good crash.
;-) That wing tip is 12+ feet from the fuselage, a very long lever. The
photo indicates the nose and the wing tip stopped suddenly. Even though you
were only a couple feet in the air, as you say, I think you had already
stalled the aircraft higher and did not realize it. This is a very common
experience for Kolb pilots, even though they may be very experienced
aviators. The other major component was your forward speed, coupled with
your vertical speed, resulting in a very hard crash.
My thoughts and experience only, for what it is worth.
Personally, I would not fly this airplane until I had pulled the fabric and
gone through both wings, not only to insure integrity of standard
components, but to also beef up lateral bracing of the leading edge. Those
rib bays are very big. At the center of the rib bay the leading edge is
drilled top and bottom for a false rib that adds no significant strength to
the wing. If anything, it tends to set up this point for failure. The
drilled leading edge is also .028", which is weakened by the drilling. The
center of the rib bay between the 2d and 3d rib from the outboard end is the
weakest point of the wing. That is exactly where the failure of both my
right and left wing was initiated.
I won't try to tell you what to do, but wanted to share my experience and
thoughts with you. I have personally experienced the demise of all three of
my airplanes, more than once, while sitting in the pilot's seat. Not
bragging. Trying to prevent someone else from duplicating my mistakes.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Hi Chris:
All the newer Kolb models have much stronger wings than the old 5 rib
FS. You don't have to worry about pulling a wing off a FF. It has 22'
wing span, very short wing panels, and lots of ribs. Very similar to
the Sling Shot.
john h
John , Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny
wings" on your firestar, Chris
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Hi John,
I took a look at the Thom's damaged FS and it doesn't look that bad. Thom
has done a great job in putting it back together and it helps that he is an
FAA certified airplane mechanic. I thought it was going be a challenge to match
the holes on the H section when he drills the new tailboom. Thom said he
will trace the holes on to a paper and use it on the tailboom as a stencil,
sounds like a good idea.
Yesterday I got to fly with him over Niagara Falls.
In a message dated 10/9/2007 11:07:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes:
Thom:
I have to disagree with you.
The damage you describe indicates the FS took some tremendous hits
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Good one, Pat. I thought this VG topic was becoming a religion, glad there's
some humor in it, too. And lest any of Ye smiteth me, I do know how to use
the delete key and do quite often. Pat generally puts a nice Brit spin, like
the Monty Python reference, on things.
Turtles, all the way down. Great.
Rick
On 10/9/07, pat ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
> The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that God
> is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears as
> an
> orb.>>
>
> Hi,
> I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange
> reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after giving a
> lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said "
> You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an
> elephant which is standing on a turtle"
> "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case
> what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that "
> said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down"
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...)
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
I'm not going to go look it up, but I'm betting that it's: even a fool is
thought wise, if he remains silent. One I break all too frequently.
Rick
On 10/9/07, Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org> wrote:
>
>
> And this rather pointless missive reminds me of Proverbs 26:5.
> Which is why I wrote my previous post.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not
> Invented
>
>
> >
> > The Bible says the world is flat? Au contraire, Isaiah 40:22 says that
> God
> > is above the circle of the earth. Or in other words, the earth appears
> as
> > an
> > orb.>>
> >
> > Hi,
> > I dont want to start a religious war but this rather pointless exchange
> > reminded me of the story of a well known astronomer who, after
> giving a
> > lecture about the creation of the earth was accosted by a lady who said
> "
> > You are quite wrong you know. The Earth is supported on the back of an
> > elephant which is standing on a turtle"
> > "Oh really," replied the astonomer, humouring the old lady "In that case
> > what is the turtle standing on.". "Oh you can`t catch me out like that
> "
> > said the lady "Its just turtles, all the way down"
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Pat (Every body look on the bright side of life..de dah..de dah...)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
John , I knew you were the right man to ask thank you Do you know where on
can find a picture of the plan or a description of the wing from TNK itself
? Thanks again for the reassuring description , the slingshot is quite a r
ugged model . Chris=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: John Hau
ck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, Oc
tober 9, 2007 4:48:01 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly Landing Gear
Leg Strength Improvement=0A=0A=0AHi Chris:=0A =0AAll the newer Kolb models
have much stronger wings than the old 5 rib FS. You don't have to worry a
bout pulling a wing off a FF. It has 22' wing span, very short wing panels
, and lots of ribs. Very similar to the Sling Shot.=0A =0Ajohn h=0A =0AJoh
n , Just a question after reading the distuction of those "tiny wings" on y
======0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________________________
___________________________________________=0ABuilding a website is a piece
tp://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Chris:
Call Travis, or maybe one of the guys on the Kolb List will send you a
scan of the wing plans.
john h
Thanks again for the reassuring description , the slingshot is quite
a rugged model . Chris
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Hi Will:
I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace. However, I would not consider it,
even if it had not taken the hit it did.
Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls.
First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988. Departed the Falls, flew
back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the engine halfway
between the island and the mainland. Elected to force land on Grand
Island. Got really busy just prior to touch down, division of
attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low. Got the left
gear leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube
cluster. Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS. Also,
the lower rear longerons always bent out of column as the result of a
hard landing, or striking an immoveable object on the ground.
I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo again. No way would I
even consider reusing that H brace.
john h
mkIII
Thom said he will trace the holes on to a paper and use it on the
tailboom as a stencil, sounds like a good idea.
Yesterday I got to fly with him over Niagara Falls.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Hey,
I'm trying real hard to remain silent,,,,,,,,,,,,, but when you find
the bible reference for that one ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, send it to
Reverend Pike. :-)
On Oct 9, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> I'm not going to go look it up, but I'm betting that it's: even a
> fool is thought wise, if he remains silent. One I break all too
> frequently.
>
> Rick
Message 23
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Anybody on the list I am a Kolb KXP Firestar builder ,fly-er 500+ hrs I was
in an accident at the TNK factory with Norm , may he rest in piece and I a
m still in rehab learning to walk but my wish is to build and fly again .
My question to you is does any body have a drawing of the Firefly plans .p
articularly the wings ,structurally and the tail that you could email me a
copy of thank you . Chris Davis=0A=0A=0A =0A_____________________
_______________________________________________________________=0ABe a bett
er Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! A
6545469
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Somehow I think back to the interview of the little old lady down in
Mississippi , back in the 1950's , during a rash of UFO spottings...The
reporter asked how she knew it was a UFO; to which she replied....why
sonny! it had UFo written on the side of it!!! :-) Herb
do not archive...
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:08:50 -0400 Eugene Zimmerman <ez@embarqmail.com>
writes:
Hey,
I'm trying real hard to remain silent,,,,,,,,,,,,, but when you find the
bible reference for that one ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, send it to Reverend Pike.
:-)
On Oct 9, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
I'm not going to go look it up, but I'm betting that it's: even a fool is
thought wise, if he remains silent. One I break all too frequently.
Rick
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
John Hauck wrote:
> Hi Will:
>
> I am sure Thom can reuse his H brace. However, I would not consider
> it, even if it had not taken the hit it did.
>
> Glad you got to fly over Niagra Falls.
>
> First time I flew over Niagra Fallls was 1988. Departed the Falls,
> flew back up the river, over Grand Island, and lost the engine halfway
> between the island and the mainland. Elected to force land on Grand
> Island. Got really busy just prior to touch down, division of
> attention, stalled the FS and dropped in left wing low. Got the left
> gear leg socket which was ripped right out of the gear leg socket tube
> cluster. Did not take a whole lot to do this on an original FS.
> Also, the lower rear longerons always bent out of column as the result
> of a hard landing, or striking an immoveable object on the ground.
>
> I went back and took a look at the tailboom photo again. No way would
> I even consider reusing that H brace.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
Guy's,
From one who has experienced his own personal disaster with a Kolb, I
would recommend that you take heed of someone who has much more
experience in the field of wrecking planes. I'm surprised that he
tries as hard as he does to share his experience with the group, since
many tend to ignore what he has learned. I found that John will share
any and all knowledge he and his brother Jim have acquired over the
years to this groups benefit.
Discount this advice at your own peril !!!
If you aspire to be the new test dummy that is you prerogative. I would
rather learn as much as possible from those before me so that I might
fly incident free!
Terry - FireFly #95 750 hr.s
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Gene Z and other participants in this conversation:
Well, you all could take this conversation back copy.
I think you have enough participants to start a new email List.
Seems to have drifted away for Kolb aircraft. For that matter, has even
drifted away for VG's and as far East as Great Brittain.
Would like to emphasize I am posting this one with kindness in my heart,
trying to be as gentle as I can not to hurt anyones feelings or stir up
a sh_t storm.
Thanks for being considerate to the remaining couple hundred other Kolb
Listers,
john h
mkIII
PS: I know. I have a delete key, but should not have to use it this
often.
I'm trying real hard to remain silent,,,,,,,,,,,,, but when you find
the bible reference for that one ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, send it to Reverend
Pike. :-)
Message 27
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Chris,
I have the original FF's drwing book...from abt '97. Could lend it
too you, with handshake for getting it back. Advise.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 28
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Chris:
Are you going to work on the hand controls for the FF?
john h
mkIII
Anybody on the list I am a Kolb KXP Firestar builder ,fly-er 500+ hrs
I was in an accident at the TNK factory with Norm , may he rest in piece
and I am still in rehab learning to walk but my wish is to build and
fly again .My question to you is does any body have a drawing of the
Firefly plans .particularly the wings ,structurally and the tail that
you could email me a copy of thank you . Chris Davis
Message 29
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| Subject: | How many Ultrastars? |
Just curious... anybody have any idea how many Ultrastars Kolb
produced? Were they all kits or did they sell plans as well? I also
wonder how many are still flying, though I'm sure that's an even tougher
number to determine.
-Dana
--
--
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather
large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list@msn.com>
----- Original Message -----
Jack
One of the energy absorption features of the spreading struts is the
scrubbing of the tires on the ground for spring strut planes like the
Cesnas. This is the principal dampening mechanism for the bouncing of the
plane down the runway during landing.
If you are seriously looking at the design of wheel struts, take a look at
"Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft" Vol I by Ladislao Pazmany, ISBN
0-9616777-0-8. Chapter 9 will walk you through the FAA FAR23 requirements.
While you dont need to meet these requirements you should understand their
implications.
..........................
Ron,
Thanks for the heads up. I Googled and found an analysis for "Gyroplane
Landing Gear Loads". What was interesting was that the FAA considered 2.0G
as good enough for light aircraft. By substituting into the last equation:
M = 0.8 x F x 20 - 0.215 x T x 16.25 = 6,570 in-pounds
and solving for T the cable tension required to keep from bending the leg
gives:
T = (16 x F - 6570)/3.49
At 2.0G, F is equal to 500 pounds so T = 410 pounds.
1/16th inch diameter cable will break at 480 pounds.
15 gage bicycle spoke will break at 490 pounds.
At 3.0G, F is equal to 750 pounds and T = 980 pounds.
3/32 inch diameter cable will break at 920 pounds.
12 gage bicycle spoke will break at 1050 pounds.
Bicycle spokes would be easier to install and one could pretension them by
using die compression springs. I believe I will start with the 3.0G bicycle
spoke version. I have checked about ordering special length spokes but I do
not know what gages are available.
This is interesting. Thanks again.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 31
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John, Perhaps in the future but I am trying everyday to go and drive down a
long(1/4 mile) beach parking lot WITH MY FEET they still are on fire wit
h pins and needles but it is getting a little easier each day ,. so perhap
s the hand controls will be unnecessary! I HOPE Thanks Chris =0A=0A=0A
=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>=0A
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: firefly=0A=0A=0AChris:=0A =0AAre you going to work o
n the hand controls for the FF?=0A =0Ajohn h=0AmkIII=0A =0AAnybody on the l
ist I am a Kolb KXP Firestar builder ,fly-er 500+ hrs I was in an accident
at the TNK factory with Norm , may he rest in piece and I am still in rehab
learning to walk but my wish is to build and fly again .My question to y
ou is does any body have a drawing of the Firefly plans .particularly the
wings ,structurally and the tail that you could email me a copy of thank y
======0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________________________
better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it ou
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
Anecdotal evidence to be sure, Jack, but consider this. Back in the
beginning days of hang gliding, some manufacturers got the idea of using
1/8" cable as a hang strap for the pilot. Less drag was the big selling
point, although worrying about drag on a standard Rogallo just seems
retarded, now. But, the few who touted it went ahead and installed them.
Why, the breaking strength is 2,000lb., so strong you don't even need a
backup. We were all 170 lb. FAA size people then as we were still eating
food at that time. Heck, this thing is good for nearly 12G's. Within weeks,
several pilots had fallen from their wings. It seemed it really didn't take
a big negative G going over the falls coming out of a thermal to produce one
heck of a momentary load and *SNAP*. 1" tubular nylon hang straps, with a
5,000 lb. breaking strength and the ability to take a generous stretch
became the norm after that, with hefty backups, too. Drag be darned. Just a
thought, it is experimental aviation, after all.
Rick
On 10/9/07, Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt_list@msn.com>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Jack
>
> One of the energy absorption features of the spreading struts is the
> scrubbing of the tires on the ground for spring strut planes like the
> Cesnas. This is the principal dampening mechanism for the bouncing of the
> plane down the runway during landing.
>
> If you are seriously looking at the design of wheel struts, take a look at
> "Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft" Vol I by Ladislao Pazmany, ISBN
> 0-9616777-0-8. Chapter 9 will walk you through the FAA FAR23
> requirements.
> While you don't need to meet these requirements you should understand
> their
> implications.
> ..........................
> Ron,
>
> Thanks for the heads up. I Googled and found an analysis for "Gyroplane
> Landing Gear Loads". What was interesting was that the FAA considered
> 2.0G
> as good enough for light aircraft. By substituting into the last
> equation:
>
> M = 0.8 x F x 20 - 0.215 x T x 16.25 = 6,570 in-pounds
>
> and solving for T the cable tension required to keep from bending the leg
> gives:
>
> T = (16 x F - 6570)/3.49
>
> At 2.0G, F is equal to 500 pounds so T = 410 pounds.
> 1/16th inch diameter cable will break at 480 pounds.
> 15 gage bicycle spoke will break at 490 pounds.
>
> At 3.0G, F is equal to 750 pounds and T = 980 pounds.
> 3/32 inch diameter cable will break at 920 pounds.
> 12 gage bicycle spoke will break at 1050 pounds.
>
> Bicycle spokes would be easier to install and one could pretension them by
>
> using die compression springs. I believe I will start with the 3.0Gbicycle
> spoke version. I have checked about ordering special length spokes but I
> do
> not know what gages are available.
>
> This is interesting. Thanks again.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 33
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Bob , Thank you for your response has the Firefly remained then same for th
e last 10 years ? if it has stayed the same ( at least structurally) I wo
uld love to have it and would be glad to shake a hand on returning it and I
will gladly pay the shipping in both directions if that works with you my
address is. Chris Davis box 586 west chatham ma. 02669 Thank you ver
y much P.S. how many hours do you have on your Firefly /I had 490+ on my Fi
restar KXP in 10 years. Chris=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A
From: Bob Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tu
esday, October 9, 2007 6:59:18 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: firefly=0A=0ACh
ris, =0A=0A=0AI have the original FF's drwing book...from abt '97. Could le
nd it too you, with handshake for getting it back. Advise.=0A=0A=0A=0Aregar
ds,=0ABob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb=0Ahttp://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
===========0A=0A=0A ______________________________
______________________________________________________=0AFussy? Opinionated
? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge aka Not Invented |
Hi Pat. I've kinda gotten out of the habit of the List lately. Very
busy at work with new owners, re-modeling, the end of the fiscal year on
Oct 1, and not out of the woods yet.
How about you ?? Is the weather still good enuf for the cottage ??
Hope so, that looks like a nice way to spend a weekend.
I've been more active lately on the weekends and have been doing quite a
bit of climbing and hiking. Take a look at my new blog at:
www.gogittum.com/blog New Mexico is a great place to
live. Lar.
pat ladd wrote:
>
> Hi Lar,
> How are you. You have been very quiet lately. I was only saying to
> Wendy yesterday that you hadn`t been very active on the list..
>
> We were showing some friends some of the pics which you took at
> Monument Valley and around Santa Fe. They may be coming to the Santa
> Fe area next year.
> How are things at work. They running you ragged?
>
> cheers
>
> Pat
>
>
Message 35
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Can't say what there differences are, if any. Can you ask TNK?
I'll bundle and send in a coupla days. Altho I'm trying to sell FF,
doubt if any action this late in year. My good wife has had three
kinds of cancer, and recently four TIAs...causing me to be close by
almost all the time, and not away. Been flying since solo '41, an
very depressed at no longer so, bu we've been marrie more than 60
years, so I won't give up on her.
Glad you are mending, even if it's slow going.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
Message 36
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Kolb-ers, very sorry to have sent msg to list instead of Chris.
Typing very difficult with these boxing gloves on.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Landing Gear Leg Strength Improvement |
In a message dated 10/9/2007 1:37:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
riddletr@gmail.com writes:
I understand why the boom broke the way it did but could not communicate it
effectively to Bob Bean even when he saw the whole thing so I'm not sure I
can communicate it to you and the rest of the group.
Thom,
My flying buddy has an original FireStar with the 5 rib wing. One day
while parked, not tied down, the wind picked up the left wing and tipped the
plane until the right wing hit the ground. The left main wheel came off the
ground. Now the right wing tip, right main wheel and the tail wheel were
supporting the plane on the ground. The wind continued to push the plane over
onto
its back. Damage was quite extensive and very similar to yours. The tail
boom broke at the rear of the H section.
You may have seen my report a year or so ago. We rebuilt it and modified
the wings by installing 10 ribs, along with the 1/2" aluminum angle braces John
h. talks about.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
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