Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:18 AM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Dave Bigelow)
2. 05:11 AM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Thom Riddle)
3. 10:11 AM - Ethanol ()
4. 11:47 AM - Re: Ethanol (Richard Girard)
5. 01:06 PM - Re: Ethanol (jb92563)
6. 01:20 PM - Re: "belly" dragger (jb92563)
7. 01:27 PM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (jb92563)
8. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Richard Girard)
9. 06:08 PM - VX (Larry Cottrell)
10. 06:41 PM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (JetPilot)
11. 06:45 PM - Re: VX (Dana Hague)
12. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Larry Bourne)
13. 07:14 PM - Re: VX (Larry Cottrell)
14. 09:22 PM - Fw: VX (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel |
Henry,
I understand Maui will soon have a source of 89 octane gas with no ethanol added.
I don't know when exactly, or where. Call this person - I've been told he
knows the details.
Rep. Angus L.K. McKelvey
E-mail Address(es):
repmckelvey@Capitol.hawaii.gov
Business Information:
Title: Representative 10th District
Department: House of Representative
Company: State of Hawaii
Phone: 586-6160
Fax: 586-6161
We've had a souce available in Kona now for about two months, and it is working
fine in my HKS engine and in the Rotax 505 engine in my DG400 sailplane.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140234#140234
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel |
Henry,
About a year ago, I was thinking of doing a similar experiment but called Mr. Funnel
instead. They reluctantly admitted, after many very specific questions which
amounted to the questions you obviously had when doing your experiment, I
got the answers you got but they didn't want to admit its limitations with ethanol
laced gasoline.
Bottom line is that if the fuel that goes through the funnel is already phase separated,
then the water/ethanol mix in the separate phase will not pass through
the funnel. The water that is mixed with the alcohol AND gasoline will pass
through. So to make best use of the funnel it is best to let the fuel sit still
for awhile before pouring. Nothing can be done, that I know of, with the water
that is mixed with the ethanol in the fuel except sump before every flight,
especially when the temps are cool, as you discovered.
The good news is that the water that IS mixed with the ethanol will not cause any
problems at all in burning.
The bad news is that if it is cool and the water/ethanol mix separates and you
drain it off, you could be lowering the octane of the remaining fuel because the
water draws out of gasoline/ethanol mixture part of the ethanol that raises
the octane.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the
only means."
Albert Einstein
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140243#140243
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Hi,
The ethanol issue is really important.
Here in Ontario Canada, the provincial government has mandated ethanol in
all gasoline, even though COPA has appealed on behalf of amateur builts and
certified planes that are allowed to use mo-gas. The federal government
(Transport Canada) does not permit gas containing ethanol to be used in
aircraft engines. They really don't give a darn about UL planes other than
statistics provided we conform to airborne rules.
So what does a guy do? I fly with mo-gas (ethanol approx. 10%). I try to
keep it as fresh as possible and get it as I need it.
If I move to a Kolb and either a 447 or 503 Rotax it will be a bigger issue
for me, the government notwithstanding, rather my neck.
Here the street word from sources inside Shell Canada: Shell "V-Power"
(premium) does not have ethanol, rather they make their quota by increasing
the volumn in the low and mid range fuel. Hopefully that will continue for
awhile. Its an hour round trip for me to get it so I run ESSO/EXXON with the
ethanol*.
I guess the Rotax dealers here are warning people about ethanol and
especially with fiberglass tanks (which the ethanol eats)...
Bad gas has taken a couple of people I know in a certified and UL. So be
careful and fly safe.
Thanks for the separation and funnel tests
Dave
PS * I know people tell me its a waste to use high test, alI in fact
increasing my ethanol content? All mt engines seem to run better with it.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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Guys and Gals, I recently went through Eric Tucker's engine classes at
Lockwood Aviation. I didn't count how many times Eric stressed this point,
do NOT use paper element fuel filters, but it was at least once per day. As
he explained it, and as Henry's tests showed, the water drops out of
solution as temperatures change. If you don't catch it and the water coats
the paper element, the element becomes impermeable to gas, essentially
cutting off the fuel flow just as effectively as turning off the fuel valve.
Without the explanation, the warning is also in the Rotax installation
manuals, too.
Eric also mentioned that up to 5% ethanol is not a problem as far as the
engine is concerned.
Rick
On 10/16/07, drherron@sympatico.ca <drherron@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The ethanol issue is really important.
>
> Here in Ontario Canada, the provincial government has mandated ethanol in
> all gasoline, even though COPA has appealed on behalf of amateur builts
> and
> certified planes that are allowed to use mo-gas. The federal government
> (Transport Canada) does not permit gas containing ethanol to be used in
> aircraft engines. They really don't give a darn about UL planes other than
> statistics provided we conform to airborne rules.
>
> So what does a guy do? I fly with mo-gas (ethanol approx. 10%). I try to
> keep it as fresh as possible and get it as I need it.
>
> If I move to a Kolb and either a 447 or 503 Rotax it will be a bigger
> issue
> for me, the government notwithstanding, rather my neck.
>
> Here the street word from sources inside Shell Canada: Shell "V-Power"
> (premium) does not have ethanol, rather they make their quota by
> increasing
> the volumn in the low and mid range fuel. Hopefully that will continue for
> awhile. Its an hour round trip for me to get it so I run ESSO/EXXON with
> the
> ethanol*.
> I guess the Rotax dealers here are warning people about ethanol and
> especially with fiberglass tanks (which the ethanol eats)...
>
> Bad gas has taken a couple of people I know in a certified and UL. So be
> careful and fly safe.
>
> Thanks for the separation and funnel tests
>
> Dave
>
> PS * I know people tell me its a waste to use high test, alI in fact
> increasing my ethanol content? All mt engines seem to run better with it.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 5
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Hi Dave,
Ethanol in my fuel is going to destroy my fiberglass tank?
Do you know what percentage it becomes a problem at?
I have a fairly thin F-glass fuel tank on my Kolb.
I wonder if I can coat it with something to make it ethanol proof.
I can't have fiberglass resin going through my engine, need to rethink the fuel
filter.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140312#140312
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| Subject: | Re: "belly" dragger |
I'll bet that would turn on a dime.
Ground loop prone perhaps as well in stiff x-winds.
Its more of a backwards tricycle gear kindof rather than a tail dragger.
I though with this threads title it was going to be about us beer drinking Kolbers....
;-)
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel |
That was a very enlightening set of experiments.....certainly something very important
to consider....
Thanks for you efforts, I would have made that mistake and used a paper fuel filter
had you not mentioned it, and also a awareness about the cooling of water
disovled in ethanol/gasoline fuel.
Someone needs to design a tank fuel pickup that rides on the surface and sucks
fuel from just below the surface of the fuel to avoid all the nasty things that
happen at the bottom of a tank.
How does a gascolator work?
My understanding is that it separates water and solids from the fuel?
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140317#140317
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel |
Ray, Will ethanol eat up my fiberglass fuel tank? Best bet here is join
canard aviators at yahoo groups. These people have been dealing with this
for years. Just check their archives. You'll see a variety of answers and
solutions, pick the one that works for you. The one that always works is
don't store fuel in your airplane's fuel tank. Drain it every time your not
going to fly for XX days. Pick the number that works for you. Want to know
the absolute answer. Get a piece of fiberglass made with the same resin
system in your tank, a quart mason jar, and a quart of your favorite fuel.
Put the fiberglass piece in the jar, fill with gas, and wait. Check it at XX
day intervals. Again, pick your number. Some of the canard guys have samples
that have soaked in their favorite avgas or mogas for years.
Gascolators? No magic, just put them at the bottom of the fuel system and
put in a drain at the very bottom. They do exactly what your idea of the
skimming pickup does. Gives the water and gunk a place where they can
collect until you drain them out.
Rick
On 10/16/07, jb92563 <jb92563@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> That was a very enlightening set of experiments.....certainly something
> very important to consider....
>
> Thanks for you efforts, I would have made that mistake and used a paper
> fuel filter had you not mentioned it, and also a awareness about the cooling
> of water disovled in ethanol/gasoline fuel.
>
> Someone needs to design a tank fuel pickup that rides on the surface and
> sucks fuel from just below the surface of the fuel to avoid all the nasty
> things that happen at the bottom of a tank.
>
> How does a gascolator work?
>
> My understanding is that it separates water and solids from the fuel?
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140317#140317
>
>
Message 9
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How does one figure VX in a firestar. I need it for the sheet that I
will turn in when I have completed my 40 hour test flights. WAG do?
Larry C
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel |
All I can say is that you should have known the results of this before you started...
The MR funnel uses gravity to leave water in the bottom as fuel goes
through the screen. If the water is separated from the gasoline, it will sit
in the bottom of the MR Funnel and not be passed through.
If the fuel is suspended in the gasoline, and gravity does not bring it to the
bottom of your jar for however long it sits in there, then gravity is most definitely
not going to bring the water to the bottom trap of the Mr Funnel in the
split second that it takes to pass through.
This is pretty obvious... It should be apparent to anyone that has MR funnel should
know what it will do, and what it will not do.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140356#140356
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At 09:08 PM 10/16/2007, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>How does one figure VX in a firestar. I need it for the sheet that I will
>turn in when I have completed my 40 hour test flights. WAG do?
One way would be to fly with your GPS, doing climbs at different speeds,
then download the tracklog onto your computer and run it into a flight
analysis program... I've been using GPLIGC, which is free softward intended
for analyzing soaring flights. It can give you all kinds of useful
performance information.
-Dana
--
--
But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel |
I'm not sure you're being entirely fair, Mike. I didn't know that, it
wasn't obvious to me, and I thought it was good information carefully
gathered and willingly shared. Lar.
JetPilot wrote:
>
> All I can say is that you should have known the results of this before you started...
The MR funnel uses gravity to leave water in the bottom as fuel goes
through the screen. If the water is separated from the gasoline, it will sit
in the bottom of the MR Funnel and not be passed through.
>
> If the fuel is suspended in the gasoline, and gravity does not bring it to the
bottom of your jar for however long it sits in there, then gravity is most definitely
not going to bring the water to the bottom trap of the Mr Funnel in
the split second that it takes to pass through.
>
> This is pretty obvious... It should be apparent to anyone that has MR funnel
should know what it will do, and what it will not do.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140356#140356
>
>
>
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At 09:08 PM 10/16/2007, Larry Cottrell wrote:
How does one figure VX in a firestar. I need it for the sheet that I
will turn in when I have completed my 40 hour test flights. WAG do?
One way would be to fly with your GPS, doing climbs at different
speeds, then download the tracklog onto your computer and run it into a
flight analysis program... I've been using GPLIGC, which is free
softward intended for analyzing soaring flights. It can give you all
kinds of useful performance information.
-Dana
Personally I would have nothing that would tell me what any angle that
I would fly anyway, even if I could figure out what VX is, the
information would be useless to any one flying my plane since I have
absolutely no instrument to measure it with. I use 50 MPH for my best
speed for climb. My inclination is to shine it. I was just wondering
what some of the rest of you EAB's used.
Larry C
Message 14
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Personally I would have nothing that would tell me what any angle that I
would fly anyway, even if I could figure out what VX is, the information
would be useless to any one flying my plane since I have absolutely no
instrument to measure it with. I use 50 MPH for my best speed for climb.
My inclination is to shine it. I was just wondering what some of the
rest of you EAB's used.
Larry C
Please excuse my ignorance, I just looked it up on Google, and am a
bit embarrassed by the revelation. :-(
Larry C
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