---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/18/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Dave Bigelow) 2. 04:06 AM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Dana Hague) 3. 05:13 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (N27SB@aol.com) 4. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Russ Kinne) 5. 05:27 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (Michael Sharp) 6. 05:40 AM - Re: VX (Thom Riddle) 7. 05:44 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (N27SB@aol.com) 8. 06:05 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (Terry Swartz) 9. 06:26 AM - Re: VX (Thom Riddle) 10. 07:36 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (herbgh@juno.com) 11. 07:37 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (thumb) 12. 07:38 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (herbgh@juno.com) 13. 08:44 AM - Re: Installing Book binding tape (N27SB@aol.com) 14. 09:52 AM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (jb92563) 15. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Bob Noyer) 16. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (N27SB@aol.com) 17. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Bob Noyer) 18. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (N27SB@aol.com) 19. 05:37 PM - Re: VX (planecrazzzy) 20. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Russ Kinne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel From: "Dave Bigelow" How to Tell if you have a load of water in your tank of ethanol/gas mixture: The is a variant of the olive jar test. Use a jar that is tall and slim, like an olive jar. Make a mark about one third of the way up from the bottom. Fill to the mark with water. Add the gas/ethanol mixture from your tank to nearly fill the jar. Shake vigorously and let the mixture sit for a while. If the level of water drops below the line, it means the gas/ethanol mixture was not saturated with water. The unsaturated ethanol absorbs some of the water from the jar, and becomes saturated. This is good, and means the fuel is OK as long as you don't let any water get into it. If there is no change (or very little change) in the level of the water in the jar, it means the gas/ethanol mixture is probably saturated (or nearly saturated) with water, and should not be used in your plane. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140591#140591 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:39 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel At 09:18 PM 10/17/2007, Dave Bigelow wrote: > >The biggest problem I can see with using a gas/ethanol mixture that has >picked up a load of water (just short of the point of phase separation) is >what happens in the carb bowl. The carb tends to cool more than the fuel >tanks because of the vaporization of the fuel as it is atomized and mixed >with air. If phase separation (due to cooling) takes place in the carb >bowl, it's too late for a filter to do it's work. I think that would be less of a problem. Since the carburetor is mounted to the engine it sees a fair mount of vibration, which would tend to keep the fuel / water mixture well agitated and mixed even if it does separate out of phase. The engine won't starve for fuel though it may run lean. A bit of water mixed with the gas probably doesn't hurt; it's a big slug of water coming down the line from the tank and _not_ mixed with gas that makes things get quiet. -Dana -- -- But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:07 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape Herb, After you prepare your overlapped tape (assumed you know how to do this) cut a short section of this as a test, a few inches long. >From the top of the wing, apply one of the sticky sides to the top, back edge of the wing trailing edge. You will see the whole tape assy above the wing and aileron. with the other sticky edge towards the rear and pointing up. Place that aileron FULL down. Push the tape down through the gap between the wing trailing edge and aileron leading edge. >From underneath, push the sticky part on the underside of the aileron leading edge. If you have too much or too little tape length left, adjust by changing the position on the wing (step 1) Now you will know where to start when applying the tape on the wing. Go for it with a full length piece. Goo luck, It is easy once you get the hang of it. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:27 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel So far no one's mentioned the use of the old standby, the traditional chamois, to filter fuel. It works and works well, in my experience. In third-world places; and Mexico; the %$@**&#% locals often pour 5-10 gallons of water into a barrel of fuel to bring the level up. They get their money and are far away when the engine quits. Nice guys. Chamois doesn't slow the fueling down too much & will keep the ol' mill running. On Oct 18, 2007, at 6:58 AM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 09:18 PM 10/17/2007, Dave Bigelow wrote: >> >> >> The biggest problem I can see with using a gas/ethanol mixture >> that has picked up a load of water (just short of the point of >> phase separation) is what happens in the carb bowl. The carb >> tends to cool more than the fuel tanks because of the vaporization >> of the fuel as it is atomized and mixed with air. If phase >> separation (due to cooling) takes place in the carb bowl, it's too >> late for a filter to do it's work. > > I think that would be less of a problem. Since the carburetor is > mounted to the engine it sees a fair mount of vibration, which > would tend to keep the fuel / water mixture well agitated and mixed > even if it does separate out of phase. The engine won't starve for > fuel though it may run lean. A bit of water mixed with the gas > probably doesn't hurt; it's a big slug of water coming down the > line from the tank and _not_ mixed with gas that makes things get > quiet. > > -Dana > -- > -- > But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles? > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:21 AM PST US From: Michael Sharp Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape Steve, For those of us that may be unsure of how to accomplish the overlap, could you detail that procedure also? Thanks, Mike N27SB@aol.com wrote: Herb, After you prepare your overlapped tape (assumed you know how to do this) cut a short section of this as a test, a few inches long. From the top of the wing, apply one of the sticky sides to the top, back edge of the wing trailing edge. You will see the whole tape assy above the wing and aileron. with the other sticky edge towards the rear and pointing up. Place that aileron FULL down. Push the tape down through the gap between the wing trailing edge and aileron leading edge. From underneath, push the sticky part on the underside of the aileron leading edge. If you have too much or too little tape length left, adjust by changing the position on the wing (step 1) Now you will know where to start when applying the tape on the wing. Go for it with a full length piece. Goo luck, It is easy once you get the hang of it. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive --------------------------------- See w ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:01 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VX From: "Thom Riddle" On April 5, 2007 I posted a spreadsheet showing the approximate relationship among the V-speeds on light aircraft. If you have spreadsheet software you can view it and use it. If you don't you can get a good estimate of the Vx speed for your airplane if you know the clean stall speed (Vs1) and max continuous cruise speed (Vh). Subtract the stall speed from the max. continuous stall speed and multiply that number by 14% and add it back to the stall speed. Example: Vh = 85 mph Vs1 = 35 mph Vh - Vs1 = 85 - 35 = 50 50 x 14% = 7 7 + 35 = 42 42 mph would be a good estimate for Vx for this airplane. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140602#140602 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:23 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape In a message dated 10/18/2007 8:28:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kolbdriver@mlsharp.com writes: For those of us that may be unsure of how to accomplish the overlap, could you detail that procedure also? Thanks, Mike Sure, I use the kitchen counter top. (Wives and mothers love this) Take a length of tape, (more than you need) and lay it sticky side up. Secure it by taping each end down using tape. Lay a second piece down over it and leave about a half inch exposed along the full length. About a half inch of the top piece will stick to the counter top. Trim each end to achieve the desired length. Carefully carry it out to the plane and apply. Remove all traces of airplane activity from the kitchen lest all Hell break loose. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:20 AM PST US From: "Terry Swartz" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape Here is the easy way. Forget the tape overlap. Get some 4 inch wide tape, stick it on the bottom of wing-flap, sprinkle baby powder on the exposed adhesive. Your done. On 10/18/07, Michael Sharp wrote: > > Steve, > > For those of us that may be unsure of how to accomplish the overlap, could > you detail that procedure also? > > Thanks, > Mike > > *N27SB@aol.com* wrote: > > Herb, > After you prepare your overlapped tape (assumed you know how to do this) > cut a short section of this as a test, a few inches long. > > From the top of the wing, apply one of the sticky sides to the top, back > edge of the wing trailing edge. > You will see the whole tape assy above the wing and aileron. with the > other sticky edge towards the rear and pointing up. > > Place that aileron FULL down. > > Push the tape down through the gap between the wing trailing edge and > aileron leading edge. > > From underneath, push the sticky part on the underside of the aileron > leading edge. > > If you have too much or too little tape length left, adjust by changing > the position on the wing (step 1) > > Now you will know where to start when applying the tape on the wing. > > Go for it with a full length piece. > > Goo luck, It is easy once you get the hang of it. > Steve B > Firefly 007/Floats > do not archive > > > ------------------------------ > See w > > * > > > * > > -- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VX From: "Thom Riddle" While I'm at it I figure it wouldn't hurt to attach a jpg image of the approximate v-speed relationships to Vh and Vs1. See attached image and use following formula for approximate V-speed of interest. R = Vh - Vs1 where R = speed range Vh = max. continuous airspeed Vs1 = stall speed without flaps General formula or approximate V-speeds: R x %(V speed of interest) + Vs1 = approximate V speed of interest -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- "Setting an example is not the main means of influencing another, it is the only means." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140609#140609 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/v_speed_relationships_167.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape From: herbgh@juno.com Steve Should have made myself more clear....no problem with application,,,the problem is in handling..at one time or the other both hands are stuck to the tape.. when I get a suitable piece layed flat on a table, the overlap piece is just very difficult to place into position..static electricity etc.. once it sticks--you are stuck! :-) Anyone tried straight pins to hold the first piece in position? Herb On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:11:40 EDT N27SB@aol.com writes: Herb, After you prepare your overlapped tape (assumed you know how to do this) cut a short section of this as a test, a few inches long. >From the top of the wing, apply one of the sticky sides to the top, back edge of the wing trailing edge. You will see the whole tape assy above the wing and aileron. with the other sticky edge towards the rear and pointing up. Place that aileron FULL down. Push the tape down through the gap between the wing trailing edge and aileron leading edge. >From underneath, push the sticky part on the underside of the aileron leading edge. If you have too much or too little tape length left, adjust by changing the position on the wing (step 1) Now you will know where to start when applying the tape on the wing. Go for it with a full length piece. Goo luck, It is easy once you get the hang of it. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive See w ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:45 AM PST US From: "thumb" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape Well here is my advise, if you want to do it right forget about the book binding stuff and use 3 inch finishing tape. I have done both and the finishing tape is easy to do. Ten you paint it with a brush. I replaced the book binding stuff twice on mine before I used the finishing tape.If you want to know how to do it get with me off line.lt is easy. My opinion Bill Futrell Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Swartz To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape Here is the easy way. Forget the tape overlap. Get some 4 inch wide tape, stick it on the bottom of wing-flap, sprinkle baby powder on the exposed adhesive. Your done. On 10/18/07, Michael Sharp wrote: Steve, For those of us that may be unsure of how to accomplish the overlap, could you detail that procedure also? Thanks, Mike N27SB@aol.com wrote: Herb, After you prepare your overlapped tape (assumed you know how to do this) cut a short section of this as a test, a few inches long. From the top of the wing, apply one of the sticky sides to the top, back edge of the wing trailing edge. You will see the whole tape assy above the wing and aileron. with the other sticky edge towards the rear and pointing up. Place that aileron FULL down. Push the tape down through the gap between the wing trailing edge and aileron leading edge. From underneath, push the sticky part on the underside of the aileron leading edge. If you have too much or too little tape length left, adjust by changing the position on the wing (step 1) Now you will know where to start when applying the tape on the wing. Go for it with a full length piece. Goo luck, It is easy once you get the hang of it. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - See w -- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape From: herbgh@juno.com Steve That is what I was looking for...never occurred to "frugal" Herb to waste an inch or so on either end! :-) Thanks....Herb On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:43:17 EDT N27SB@aol.com writes: In a message dated 10/18/2007 8:28:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kolbdriver@mlsharp.com writes: For those of us that may be unsure of how to accomplish the overlap, could you detail that procedure also? Thanks, Mike Sure, I use the kitchen counter top. (Wives and mothers love this) Take a length of tape, (more than you need) and lay it sticky side up. Secure it by taping each end down using tape. Lay a second piece down over it and leave about a half inch exposed along the full length. About a half inch of the top piece will stick to the counter top. Trim each end to achieve the desired length. Carefully carry it out to the plane and apply. Remove all traces of airplane activity from the kitchen lest all Hell break loose. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:39 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Installing Book binding tape Herb, Yell if you have any questions. You can also mark the countertop with a dry erase marker to aid in positioning the tape. That first piece is hard to see. There are many ways to do the gap seal. This method was Bryan Melborn's. IMHO, This is the nicest looking and it is very durable unless your plane sits out 24/7. It is almost invisible unless you really look. You can remove it by using a little heat from a hair dryer(Yup, you guessed it,From the girlfriend's bathroom) and clean up with googone. It does not harm Polytone in my experience. Test yours. Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:45 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel From: "jb92563" Taking the Olive jar test one step further: Put some fuel in the olive jar and let it sit at room temp for a while(Closed lid). Mark the level of water if there is any(Probably not) Put in in the fridge for a couple hours and then check to see if there is any more water settled out. If so, you can expect that water will separate in your fuel at altitude if it gets colder and you better have a way of keeping it out of your carb so you don't get icing or flameouts. -------- Ray Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140639#140639 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:40 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel My experiences with carb icing is limited to GA. Icing usually occurs in the throat/venturi where the temperatures are lower/lower pressure. Don't think carb bowl could freeze unless a lot of water and bowl temp was at freezing. Never heard of bowl freezing, BIMBWA regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:29 PM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel In a message dated 10/18/2007 3:49:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a58r@verizon.net writes: BIMBWA Got me Bob, what's a BIMBOWAWA Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:03 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel But(t) I May Be Wrong Again=BIMBWA BIMBOWAWA= getting caught in the next stall...in the ladies room DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:44 PM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel In a message dated 10/18/2007 6:26:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a58r@verizon.net writes: BIMBOWAWA= getting caught in the next stall...in the ladies room Thanks Bob, I thought it meant that your cheap date needed her beverage freshened. Steve really, do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:35 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VX From: "planecrazzzy" Hi Bob, Isn't it all in the book 90-89A.... Seems to me that it's figured from the stall speed.... To get you in the "ballpark"..... Like you said....you write what you want... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN - Vx 40 , Vy 50 (FSII) slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: > For EAB a logbook entry is all that is required. Nothing to send in. > You can write anything you please for those V speeds. > > BB do not archive -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140703#140703 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:59 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel But I May Be OtherWise A Wise Arse????? do not archive -- please! On Oct 18, 2007, at 8:29 PM, N27SB@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/18/2007 6:26:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > a58r@verizon.net writes: > > BIMBOWAWA= getting caught in the next stall...in the ladies room > > Thanks Bob, I thought it meant that your cheap date needed her > beverage freshened. > > Steve > really, do not archive > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List _- > =========================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.