---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/19/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:34 AM - Re: Floats (malcolmbru@aol.com) 2. 08:43 AM - Re: Floats (jb92563) 3. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Floats (N27SB@aol.com) 4. 03:02 PM - Re: firefly (jb92563) 5. 03:08 PM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Jim ODay) 6. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Russ Kinne) 7. 05:13 PM - Determining Vx & Vy (The Kuffels) 8. 06:32 PM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (Jim ODay) 9. 08:53 PM - Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Floats From: malcolmbru@aol.com I built a set of alouminom floats from plans? but uou can find them?used? building your own will cost you alot of time and you need the space we had a set of plans floating around for free the material will cost over $1,000?? mal mk 2 pilot -----Original Message----- From: drherron@sympatico.ca Sent: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:51 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Floats ? ? Ray,? ? Yes some people charge $2000 - 3000 for floats to fit Lazair/Kolb.? ? And that is cheap compared to some of the other heavier factory built stuff.? ? There are 750 lb floats available used for $600 - 700.? ? I bought mine for $500 broken ( I was in love with plane at that point).? ? I found some real neat wooden floats, Google "Muk Tuk" I think...? scratch built or kit. His site is worth reading just for the fun of his mind set.? ? Cheers.? ? drh? CYEL? ? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Floats From: "jb92563" How did you seal the rivet seams on your aluminum floats? I'm going to try designing a single float for the Kolb Ultrastar if possible to keep the weight light. Have not decided on a material....have to do the basic shape configuration first to see what is feasable. -------- Ray Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140769#140769 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:38 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Floats In a message dated 10/19/2007 11:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jb92563@yahoo.com writes: How did you seal the rivet seams on your aluminum floats? Ray, I would use a product called 3M 5200. Most boat stores sell It Steve Firefly 007/Floats do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:00 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: firefly From: "jb92563" Its heartwarming to see this kind of cooperation and camaraderie ..... good job Bob & Chris. We all do better with each others help and advice. Ray -------- Ray Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140805#140805 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:35 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel From: "Jim ODay" The Mr. Funnel experiments are telling and confirms my choice of fuel; that trusty funnel is not perfect. I only use 100LL from a fuel dispenser at my airport that has a Velcon VF61 filter system for aviation fuel. The fuel comes out dry and clean. I use a Mr. Funnel to transfer to my FSII tank. I have a gascolator on the outlet of my fuel tank that I can sump before flight. Fuel quality is not an issue. 100LL costs more, but it is not that much of a premium. My business is fuel storage tanks. I will not mess with "pump gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter. You really do not know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many years, I know. If it was a designated tank for auto gas, at an airport, no ethanol, I may consider it if the tank is well maintained. In MN and ND you cannot buy pump gas w/o alcohol, it is the law. I use it in my car, works OK so far, but my car never leaves the ground. If you are unlucky enough to buy gas and there is a problem, you will know withing a mile or two. Looking at the fuel in a clear container is always a good idea. We have a tank cleaning service too and you would not believe what comes out of underground storage tanks. Our guys say that if the pumps had clear hoses, the guy with the $100k BMW would throw up. The more ethanol, the worse it is. http://petro.odayequipment.com/tankcleaning.shtml ---- http://www.cleanfuelguys.com/index.htm If there is water you will find bacteria too most likely. Left unchecked it will create more issues. Bacteria is not an issue with 100LL (it is the lead - toxic to bugs) We sell biocide for treating infected tanks, you can test for bacteria and fungus with a $12 test kit (we sell them too). http://www.petroparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=TST We also specialize in aviation systems and that fuel is dry from the pipeline and the filtration on the dispensing system (if it meets specs) is really good at taking particulate and any water out. The fuel quality standards for aviation fuel for storage, transport and dispensing are at a much higher standard so you get cleaner fuel. I went back to the parts counter and asked what they sell for filtering gasoline with ethanol. We have a lot of "pump gas" filters all made by this company: http://www.cim-tek.com/300biotek.asp http://www.cim-tek.com/300Series.asp http://www.cim-tek.com/biomon.pdf They also have had "water logs" that are nylon mesh tubes (1/2" dia - 2" dia x 6" - 24") that lay on the tank bottoms and scavenge water. They hang on a cord and when they are full, you throw them away. Not popular though, they rarely sell them. I don't know a lot about what you guys talk about but I do know about clean fuel. Not every FBO has clean storage or adequate filtration but they start with cleaner gas than the BP or Shell station has under the best of conditions. Ethanol has been in the fuel in this part of the country for 20 years. Most of it is made around here so it is nothing new. In MN you can have a gasoline dispenser set up for "off road" gasoline w/o alcohol and it is only for snowmobiles and boats. They set them up where there are barricades that do not allow to hose to go outside of to stick into your car but you can fill portable gas cans. My airport where I keep my Kolb has a good fueling system (we made it) and it is convenient to use and I can pay with a CC. The 100LL is ~$.75 more than pump gas, but I usually only fly 4 gallons a day so it is like a Starbuck coffee premium. My engine runs good with it and it is one less thing to worry about. Always do a visual test (I always smell it too) and fly safe. Jim do not archive -------- Jim O'Day Fargo, ND Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140806#140806 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:13 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel Jim Many thanx your informed comments about fuel. I wonder what you think of my (perhaps optomistic) opinion of using a chamois for straining fuel? I also always used PRIST as an anti-bacterial additive. Good? Bad? Necessary? Not? (for avgas) Will be interested to hear what you say. Thanx On Oct 19, 2007, at 6:08 PM, Jim ODay wrote: > > The Mr. Funnel experiments are telling and confirms my choice of > fuel; that trusty funnel is not perfect. > > I only use 100LL from a fuel dispenser at my airport that has a > Velcon VF61 filter system for aviation fuel. The fuel comes out > dry and clean. I use a Mr. Funnel to transfer to my FSII tank. I > have a gascolator on the outlet of my fuel tank that I can sump > before flight. Fuel quality is not an issue. 100LL costs more, > but it is not that much of a premium. > > My business is fuel storage tanks. I will not mess with "pump > gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter. You really do not > know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many > years, I know. If it was a designated tank for auto gas, at an > airport, no ethanol, I may consider it if the tank is well maintained. > > In MN and ND you cannot buy pump gas w/o alcohol, it is the law. I > use it in my car, works OK so far, but my car never leaves the > ground. If you are unlucky enough to buy gas and there is a > problem, you will know withing a mile or two. Looking at the fuel > in a clear container is always a good idea. > > We have a tank cleaning service too and you would not believe what > comes out of underground storage tanks. Our guys say that if the > pumps had clear hoses, the guy with the $100k BMW would throw up. > The more ethanol, the worse it is. > > http://petro.odayequipment.com/tankcleaning.shtml > ---- > http://www.cleanfuelguys.com/index.htm > > If there is water you will find bacteria too most likely. Left > unchecked it will create more issues. Bacteria is not an issue > with 100LL (it is the lead - toxic to bugs) We sell biocide for > treating infected tanks, you can test for bacteria and fungus with > a $12 test kit (we sell them too). > > http://www.petroparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc? > Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=TST > > We also specialize in aviation systems and that fuel is dry from > the pipeline and the filtration on the dispensing system (if it > meets specs) is really good at taking particulate and any water > out. The fuel quality standards for aviation fuel for storage, > transport and dispensing are at a much higher standard so you get > cleaner fuel. > > I went back to the parts counter and asked what they sell for > filtering gasoline with ethanol. We have a lot of "pump gas" > filters all made by this company: > > http://www.cim-tek.com/300biotek.asp > > http://www.cim-tek.com/300Series.asp > > http://www.cim-tek.com/biomon.pdf > > They also have had "water logs" that are nylon mesh tubes (1/2" > dia - 2" dia x 6" - 24") that lay on the tank bottoms and scavenge > water. They hang on a cord and when they are full, you throw them > away. Not popular though, they rarely sell them. > > I don't know a lot about what you guys talk about but I do know > about clean fuel. Not every FBO has clean storage or adequate > filtration but they start with cleaner gas than the BP or Shell > station has under the best of conditions. > > Ethanol has been in the fuel in this part of the country for 20 > years. Most of it is made around here so it is nothing new. In MN > you can have a gasoline dispenser set up for "off road" gasoline w/ > o alcohol and it is only for snowmobiles and boats. They set them > up where there are barricades that do not allow to hose to go > outside of to stick into your car but you can fill portable gas cans. > > My airport where I keep my Kolb has a good fueling system (we made > it) and it is convenient to use and I can pay with a CC. The 100LL > is ~$.75 more than pump gas, but I usually only fly 4 gallons a day > so it is like a Starbuck coffee premium. My engine runs good with > it and it is one less thing to worry about. > > Always do a visual test (I always smell it too) and fly safe. > > Jim > > > do not archive > > -------- > Jim O'Day > Fargo, ND > Firestar II > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140806#140806 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:14 PM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: Kolb-List: Determining Vx & Vy Warning: Long & SemiTechnical Thom Riddle's approximation method for determining critical climb and other speeds will certainly get you "good enough" close. But since we have to test fly 40 hours on our homebuilts anyway, why not use that time to get exact data. First, Thom's approximate method works best starting from true airspeeds at sea level for Vh (high/maximum cruse) and Vs1 (clean stall). Then the obtained estimates for various V speeds needs to be converted back to indicated. Thus we want accurate conversions from indicated to true airspeeds. To get this you need three things: 1) some graph paper, 2) any GPS, even a Wally World $100 special, and 3) an Excel spreadsheet from me (email me directly for a copy: kuffel@cyberport.net ). The spreadsheet asks you to fly a box of 4 different stable tracks at a constant indicated airspeed (noting the resulting GPS ground speeds) for each data point. Only 3 legs are required for this calculation but the fourth leg gives you redundant results to judge the quality of each data point. Now at no greater than 1000 foot intervals determine the true airspeed throughout your available indicated airspeed range at, say, 5 knot (or mph) intervals. Density altitude is best but this can be determined from indicated altitude, temperature and pressure on your E6-B circular slide rule. (And you thought you wouldn't need it after completing your training.) [Of course, don't gather data at the low end of your range below 2000 feet above ground level, particularly until you have thoroughly investigated the stall characteristics for your aircraft.] Now draw some graphs. For each indicated airspeed plot density altitude vs true airspeed. Extend these graphs to sea level to get a set of sea level points of TAS vs IAS. From these graphs (or density altitude data) plot a true airspeed vs indicated airspeed conversion for regularly spaced density altitudes, extending the graph moderately for airspeeds you were not able to fly. Now determine the indicated airspeeds for maximum cruse and clean stall at several altitudes. Interpolating as needed, graph your TAS vs altitude for Vh and Vs1. Extend these two graphs to sea level to use with Thom's approximations. Having determined your critical V speeds at TAS use your sea level graph to determine the equivalent indicated V speeds. But wait, there's more. Having done this much work, you might as well measure your critical Vx and Vy directly. For each of a series of altitudes do a series of saw tooth flights at, again say, 5 knot/mph increments. Climb from 500 feet below the target altitude to 500 feet above the target maintaining a constant indicated airspeed. Measure the time from 250 feet below to 250 feet above. The shorter measurement interval is to help insure your climb rate is stabilized. Now at idle, glide back down measuring the time from 250 above to 250 below. Vy (best rate) is simplest. Plot the rate of climb vs indicated airspeed at each altitude. Draw a smooth curve through the points. Where the curve peaks is the indicated airspeed for best rate of climb at that altitude. Your Vy should decrease with altitude until it meets the Vx you determine below at the aircraft's maximum altitude. For Vx (best angle) we need to convert our IAS and rate of climb to TAS and climb. The TAS and rate of climb form the hypotenuse and vertical leg of a right triangle. Divide the rate of climb (in feet/min) by the TAS (in knots/mph) to get an arbitrary number proportional to the sine of your angle of climb. Plot the arbitrary unit points against their original *indicated* airspeed. Draw a curve through these points. The peak of this curve is the *indicated* Vx for this altitude. This number should remain fairly constant with altitude. If not, something is wrong. If you want to know the actual angle of climb for Vx at various altitudes convert to identical units. First indicated Vx to TAS for an altitude. Then TAS(knots) * 101.2 = TAS(feet/min) or TAS(mph) * 88 = TAS(feet/min). Divide TAS(ft/min) by rate of climb (ft/min) to get the actual sine of your climb angle. Use excel or your high school Trigonometry book to get the equivalent angle for your computed sine value. If you want your best glide speed, do the exercise in the two prior paragraphs on your decent data. Look for the IAS at the minimum of the sine data curve. The actual decent angle gives you AGL to landing range. While the glide speed obtained will not be exactly correct for the engine-out/prop-stopped condition, it will be closer than your ability to hold an exact airspeed if you are facing that situation. (As they say, ask me how I know.) While you are doing this, get some IAS vs power settings at various altitudes as well as gas consumptions at different power settings/altitudes. If you don't have a fuel flow meter, take-off, climb, descend and land on one tank; cruse for 1/2 or one hour on another; see what it takes to refill the "cruse" and the up/down tank. Now you can compute accurate range data for that altitude/IAS including climb/decent consumption. This may seem like a lot of graphing but when you are done the test period will have gone by a lot faster. And you will be the proud possessor of more accurate data about your aircraft's performance than the vast majority of pilots know about the plane they are flying. It also makes is a lot easier to justify the log book entry you have to make at the end of the test period about the aircraft being safe to fly if anyone chalenges the statement. It might even be worth your while to do this testing on your favorite spam can or purchased experimental. If you have questions about the above or other aircraft performance data collection please contact me or your local EAA Flight Advisor (list at eaa.org ). Unlike some gummint agencies we really are here to help and the test period accident rate for people using Flight Advisor services has been ten times lower than those who didn't. Tom Kuffel, CFI Whitefish, MT EAA Flight Advisor ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:39 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel From: "Jim ODay" Hey Russ: That is a first for me .... "informed". I do not know a lot about PRIST other than it is common for Jet Fuel to absorb and burn dissolved water to prevent ice crystals from forming at high altitude. It is not used as much newer jets (private type) because they use fuel heaters. We recently built a PRIST injection system for a hospital heli-port to replace the aerosol can method of adding PRIST. Modern refueling trucks have injection systems. Some suppliers (I think Phillips) sell Jet A with PRIST pre-mixed. My Cessna 340 recommends mixing isopropyl alcohol with the 100LL to remove any water. I have never done it and I have never had any problems. I do know it can happen and ice crystals can clog screens. I have never had a water problem with 100LL other than the time someone stole a fuel cap off my plane and it rained. I did use isopropyl to dry up the tank. Just about everyone I ask about mixing alcohol with 100LL look at me cross eyed. So, I never fly without taking sample from every point - my 340 has 8 points to drain, my Kolb has 1. I always use a clear jar, hold it to the light and of course take a sniff. I know PRIST is used in avgas and it also has a biocide in it to kill any bacteria. The big factor with bacteria problems is water. No water = -------- Jim O'Day Fargo, ND Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140831#140831 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:08 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel From: "JetPilot" Jim ODay wrote: > > > My business is fuel storage tanks. I will not mess with "pump gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter. You really do not know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many years, I know. > > Your experience with fuel tanks is actually working against you... You are concentrating so much on one small detail , that you are missing the big picture. In the 912-S, Rotax recommends auto gas. Avgas causes lead deposits, fouling, and all sorts of problems in engines not designed for it. I would not run 100LL in my 912-S even if it were the same price. It is also possible to have prblems in your 2 stroke due to fouling of the plugs and rings with 100LL. Millions of cars run on auto gas each day, and we dont see hundreds of them on the side of the road each day due to fuel contamination. That really puts holes in your claims of how bad and dirty auto gas is... You need to step back, stop staring at dirty gas tanks all day, and look at the big picture. I run auto gas, and my fuel filter and carbs are so clean that I could drink out of them. You are so concentrated on one detail you are missing more important things. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140846#140846 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.