Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:50 AM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (grantr)
2. 07:56 AM - People to fly with in southwest or central georgia area? (grantr)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (jb92563)
4. 08:13 AM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (grantr)
5. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (N27SB@aol.com)
6. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (N27SB@aol.com)
7. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (Bob Noyer)
8. 10:37 AM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (jb92563)
9. 10:40 AM - Flight safety question - chutes (jb92563)
10. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (Richard Girard)
11. 12:24 PM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (George Alexander)
12. 12:38 PM - Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6 (John H Murphy)
13. 12:44 PM - safety when flying kolbs (boyd)
14. 02:10 PM - Re: Flight safety question - chutes (Jim ODay)
15. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (pat ladd)
16. 03:41 PM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (jb92563)
17. 03:46 PM - Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (jb92563)
18. 03:53 PM - Re: Help with level flight attitude for Mark II (jb92563)
19. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (Dana Hague)
20. 04:47 PM - Re: Great place for Kolbs. (George Bass)
21. 05:31 PM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (HShack@aol.com)
22. 05:40 PM - Re: Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6 (Richard Girard)
23. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (Richard Pike)
24. 05:54 PM - Re: Flight safety question - chutes (Richard Girard)
25. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Help with level flight attitude for Mark II (Richard Girard)
26. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
27. 08:19 PM - Proper Weight & Balance (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
28. 09:05 PM - Looking for Craig Nelson (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
29. 09:49 PM - Re: Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6 (Denny Rowe)
30. 10:21 PM - Re: People to fly with in southwest or central georgia area? (Flycrazy8@AOL.COM)
31. 10:48 PM - Re: Flight safety question - chutes (Flycrazy8@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
Yes I am excited about the trip!
Thanks for the tip. A tail heavy plane will only fly once!
Yes I plan to check the W/B. I do not know how to check it but I am pretty sure
My instructor does as he finished his challenger 2.
I fly radio controlled planes and its easy to check the CG on them you just pick
up the plane under the wing spar(25% of the cord) and see if it balances on
your finger tips.
I don't think that will be happening with a 400+ pound airplane. LOL :D
Thanks
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| Subject: | People to fly with in southwest or central georgia area? |
As you know I am getting a MK III soon and once I get my training I would like
to find some people to fly with whom also enjoy experiential aircraft. i have
not been able to locate any one fairly close to me. the closet is my instructor
which is 2hrs south of me near Valdosta, GA.
I am located in Plains, GA. Is there anyone close to the Columbus, Albany or Macon
area?
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
That sure is a pretty plane.
As far as doing the cg, its really not hard and merely involves putting a weight
scale under each of the wheel and recording the weights and measurements from
an arbritrary datum(The nose ussually)
Then its just a simple math exercise of multiplying, totalling and deriving the
measure from the nose where you plane currently ballances.
You can even figure out how much weight you need to add at any point to bring the
ballance to where you want it.
If you can not find someone that knows how to do it, then I can help describe it
by an example or if you give me the weights and measurements do the actual math
and show you how its done.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
Are you talking about just cheap bathroom scales?
Do you weight it sitting on the scales like it sits normally or do you have to
raise the tail scale to level the aircraft before weighing?
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
In a message dated 11/2/2007 9:52:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grant_richardson25@yahoo.com writes:
I don't think that will be happening with a 400+ pound airplane. LOL :D
Well, that's how I do it with my Firefly
Steve
Firefly 007/Floats
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
In a message dated 11/2/2007 10:15:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grant_richardson25@yahoo.com writes:
Are you talking about just cheap bathroom scales?
Most of the bathroom scales that I have tried are too inaccurate for a 400#
airplane. The digital ones are ok but:
The weight must be placed on them just right and
They go on and off as you step on or off, it is tricky to set them.
Steve
Firefly 007/Floats
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
Lots of W&B info in Archives.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
You can leave the plane in its normal sitting on the ground attitude but you should
use a plumb bob or other weight on a string to measure the location along
the tape measure from the nose.
A bathroom scale from the main tires is probably ok for the main gear since they
are reasonably accurate around the 200lb area but the tail will need more accuracy
since the weight on the tailwheel is much less...probably a digital scale
will work fine for the tail wheel.
The entire balance process is empty so you will also have to measure the location
of the variables like pilot and fuel and use your estimated weight for each.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
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| Subject: | Flight safety question - chutes |
I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?
Do you wear a parachute?
Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?
Do not have any kind of parachute?
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
Grant, Are you a member of your local EAA chapter? You might be able to
borrow or rent scales there if you were a member. Does you aircraft come
with the plans, both the instructions and the drawings? Weight and Balance
info is in the drawings, page 16, if I remember correctly.
You have to set the tail up to get a 9 degree angle on the bottom surface of
the wing. If you have never done a weight and balance, get some help from
someone who has done it for the first one. The datum on the Mk III is the
leading edge of the wing, hence some numbers will be negative and failure to
handle these correctly will make junk of your calculations.
Personally, I recommend creating your own datum somewhere out in front of
the aircraft so that all numbers are positive. This is a bit more work the
first time, since you have to reestablish all the locations, however it
eliminates the possibility of making an error in calculation. JMHO
Rick
On 11/2/07, Bob Noyer <a58r@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Lots of W&B info in Archives.
>
> regards,
> Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
> http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
>
> do not archive
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
jb92563 wrote:
> You can leave the plane in its normal sitting on the ground attitude .......
Ray of Riverside:
My assumption is that you were including both measuring the ARMs and weighing the
plane in the above statement.....
The W&B should be done with the aircraft in the level flight configuration. (With
a Firestar that's about 9 deg angle of attack as measured on the bottom surface
of the wing or 7.5" up from level at leading edge of wing).
In response to Cristal's subject: "Help with level flight attitude for Mark II",
Possums posted an image that shows the correct set up for a Firestar. Don't
know what the correct AOA would be for a MK III.
Since most of the empty weight in any Kolb is aft of the mains, probably makes
a measurable difference. I haven't done it, but try weighing just the tail wheel
both ways. Probably several pounds difference resulting in an error for the
empty CG (indicating further aft than actual) if you use the weight sitting
on the ground.
My .02 worth.
--------
George Alexander
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
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| Subject: | Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6 |
I'm installing a EIS to replace the altimeter, cgt, & egt on my FS.
Aircraft Spruce has aluminum called 6061T6 in 2x2 sheets. Would this do the trick
for a replacement panel?
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| Subject: | safety when flying kolbs |
I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?
Do you wear a parachute?
Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?
Do not have any kind of parachute?
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Boyd
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| Subject: | Re: Flight safety question - chutes |
Hey Ray:
Here are a few things I use:
I do a comprehensive and careful preflight of the entire aircraft before every
flight......I use clean fuel....... I do not fly when it it is forecast to be
gusting winds over 10 kts...... I practice power off landings regularly.
Now, I am a rookie at Kolb flying, so I may need to add some items to the list
as I become more aware. With time, I suppose I may raise the 10 kt limit (it
is a personal limit, prior limit was "calm wind only").
I do have a BRS installed. I assume it will work [Shocked] but do not want to
test it out.
Fly Safe,
Jim
do not archive
--------
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Firestar II
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
You can leave the plane in its normal sitting on the ground attitude >>
You are asking for trouble if you do. The plane MUST be in flying position.
Cheers
Pat
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
The attitude of the aircraft makes no difference in calculating the CG due to the
nature of the math, but it does make the measurements more critical.
Thats why you would need a pedulum/plumb bob to get the exact measure.
(Case in point: Does your planes CG move aft when you are climbing...as the angle
is increased similar to what it looks like when sitting on the ground?....NO
it does not, or if it did then aft CG aircraft would be spinning/crashing when
initiating a climb attitude)
If you put the aircraft in the normal flight attitude granted the measurements
become less critical, but still use a plumb bob and accurate scales for the tail
especially anyway.
More accuracy the better. So use what ever method you are comfortable with.
If you need proof of the whole concept I will work out a sample with a more extreme
ground angle like my Ultrastar, and prove the calculations work out to the
same answer in either attitude.
I need to do the weight and balance soon anyway.
As a matter of fact you can even use one scale and put it under each tire one at
a time and take a reading, but you would want a very accurate scale if using
this method. Concept there being that gravity is constant in your garage or hanger
so if you keep the attitude fixed (put a block of wood under the other tire
matching the scales thickness and the tail as well) then your plane will weight
the same as it does in any fixed attitude and produce exactly the same CG.
You could also use the "hang the plane from the rafters till its level" method
to find the CG if you still feel like a giant scale modeler [Wink]
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
George: In parked attitude ....True the tail would be heavier but you forgot that
the weight on the mains would be less...hence the calculation balances out
again.
In flight attitude the mains would weight more and the tail would weigh less.
See how these two attitudes cancel the differences out by the math?
Therefore it makes no difference.
Perhaps I need to illustrate with an example.
I guess you should do what you know but if you understand the theory you will realize
the truth.....and the Truth will set you free.....right?
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Help with level flight attitude for Mark II |
That small attitude difference will not make a difference big enough to measure
on your scales I think, unless you are using a very precise scale.
Don't take my work for it though, simply measure it both ways and see if you can
register a difference on your scales.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
At 06:40 PM 11/2/2007, jb92563 wrote:
>The attitude of the aircraft makes no difference in calculating the CG due
>to the nature of the math, but it does make the measurements more critical.
If you measure the weights with the plane not in flying attitude, you would
have to take into account the vertical position of the CG to and use
trigonometry (or a plumb bob) to determine the level flight position. The
level flight CG is where the plum bob line intersects the vertical CG
line. If you don't know where it is vertically (and I doubt many do), the
plane MUST be in level flight attitude when weighing.
-Dana
--
--
But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?
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| Subject: | Re: Great place for Kolbs. |
Mike Welch;
North Central Arizona..... Everything you asked for ecept the water,
but, that
isn't too far away. Nice little flight over to Bullhead City (on the
Colorado) &
then there's Lake Pleasant, Lake Powell, Roosevelt Lake & a few smaller
ones. Probably not as much water as you'd like tho.
Today it was 75 degrees at the time I wrote this (4:43 pm). No snow,
lots of
neat people, cow pasture airstrips all over the place, & another one in
many
of the cities around here. Cities like: Sedona, Cottonwood, Rimrock,
Payson,
Prescott, Seligman, Kimgman, Winslow, Holbrook, Valle, Williams, etc.
Also plenty of beautiful country to fly over, but, the mountains are not
as
primitive appearing as the ones much further North.
Hope you find the place you're looking for,
George Bass
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
In a message dated 11/2/2007 1:37:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jb92563@yahoo.com writes:
You can leave the plane in its normal sitting on the ground attitude but you
should use a plumb bob or other weight on a string to measure the location
along the tape measure from the nose.
I'm pretty sure it must be in flying attitude; ie., bottom of wing @ 9
degrees.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6 |
John, 6061-T6 is a good grade of aluminum, about 20% less tensile as
2024-T3, but much better corrosion resistance. It'll make a fine panel.
Rick
On 11/2/07, John H Murphy <jhm9812@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm installing a EIS to replace the altimeter, cgt, & egt on my FS.
>
> Aircraft Spruce has aluminum called 6061T6 in 2x2 sheets. Would this do
> the trick for a replacement panel?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143434#143434
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
Dug out my ancient AC 43.13 (Chapter 13, Paragraph 342, subsection C), did
some internet research, and everything I could find shows CG is to be
determined while working with an aircraft in a level attitude. Perhaps there
is a good reason for this??? And perhaps you are leading the unwary down a
primrose path to disaster????
Seems I remember something about the effects of CG while in climbing and
descent attitudes, and the additional problems caused by being out of
envelope in such a state. I really think you ought to let this go.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
----- Original Message -----
From: "jb92563" <jb92563@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 5:46 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!!
>
> George: In parked attitude ....True the tail would be heavier but you
> forgot that the weight on the mains would be less...hence the calculation
> balances out again.
>
> In flight attitude the mains would weight more and the tail would weigh
> less.
>
> See how these two attitudes cancel the differences out by the math?
>
> Therefore it makes no difference.
>
> Perhaps I need to illustrate with an example.
>
> I guess you should do what you know but if you understand the theory you
> will realize the truth.....and the Truth will set you free.....right?
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143478#143478
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Flight safety question - chutes |
Ray, Even though a chest pack, hand thrown 'chute saved my life 26 years ago
after I was extremely stupid, I have mixed feelings about them. If one
hadn't come on my Mk III I don't think I would buy one. I didn't on my
Trike. The problem, IMHO, is a false sense of security they give. Once
they're deployed, you're just a passenger along for the ride. I don't fly
any aircraft to break it, I do good maintenance, and I always leave myself
an out. I think that's the better way. On the other hand, you'll never see
me fly a glider without a reserve. :-)
Rick
On 11/2/07, jb92563 <jb92563@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?
>
> Do you wear a parachute?
>
> Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?
>
> Do not have any kind of parachute?
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143416#143416
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Help with level flight attitude for Mark II |
Ray, it's pretty a simple trig problem to see that measuring the W & B in
the landed configuration will be inches off. Really bad advice on your part.
Do it on your own plane if you like, but don't advise someone else to do it.
Rick
On 11/2/07, jb92563 <jb92563@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> That small attitude difference will not make a difference big enough to
> measure on your scales I think, unless you are using a very precise scale.
>
> Don't take my work for it though, simply measure it both ways and see if
> you can register a difference on your scales.
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143483#143483
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: I am getting a Kolb MK III!! |
Ray
the correct way to do a weight and balance is to put the airplane in its
flying attitude it will change the weights and measurments maybe enough to put
a
plane out of CG if close a tail heavy airplane will only stall once and will
never fly again without a lot of work
You can do it any way you want and I dont want to fly your plane
Just what its worth
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
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| Subject: | Proper Weight & Balance |
sorry but I got beat this one more time
Do it right or Die!!!! Get the point?
I happen to test fly a lot of other aircraft and I wouldn't do it without a
proper weight and balance so I do it my self so I know it was done right
because I don't want to miss any flying or get killed because I took someone's
word
for it (POOR EXCUSE) for dying.
I have three commercial Digital scales I purchased for this I have had people
tell me they used one bathroom scale and it weighed XXX on mains and XX on
tail and I have never had one of them correct yet I do use Plumb bobs to get
exact measurements on all points involved and I haven't had an uncontrollable
airplane either
and I also find the firefly the firestar and the MK3Xtra all at 9 degrees AOA
for proper weight & Balance
Ellery
do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Looking for Craig Nelson |
Craig Nelson
Could you get intouch with me Email _ElleryWeld@aol.com_
(mailto:ElleryWeld@aol.com)
Tried to send you email but it wouldn not make the trip
Ellery
do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6 |
Yep.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John H Murphy" <jhm9812@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 3:38 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Replacing aluminum panel - with 6061T6
>
> I'm installing a EIS to replace the altimeter, cgt, & egt on my FS.
>
> Aircraft Spruce has aluminum called 6061T6 in 2x2 sheets. Would this do
> the trick for a replacement panel?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143434#143434
>
>
> --
> 11/1/2007 6:47 PM
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: People to fly with in southwest or central georgia area? |
Kolb-List message posted by: "grantr" <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
As you know I am getting a MK III soon and once I get my training I would
like to find some people to fly with whom also enjoy experiential aircraft. i
have not been able to locate any one fairly close to me. the closet is my
instructor which is 2hrs south of me near Valdosta, GA.
I am located in Plains, GA. Is there anyone close to the Columbus, Albany or
Macon area?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hey Grant
I keep my Kolb in Donalsonville, Ga. (17J) ...Which is south of Albany, Ga.
We have an experimental/sport/ultralight club of around thirty members that
love to fly.
Our website is _www.southernflyersul.com_ (http://www.southernflyersul.com)
if you care to check us out.
There is another club that is around the columbus/phenix city area that I
could hook you up with too..... Theie website is
_www.homestead.com/southernflyers_ (http://www.homestead.com/southernflyers) ... Ted Cowan flys an Kolb
Slingshot with that club and is a good guy to fly with too .
Stevon Baxley
Kolb Firefly
334-899-5908
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Flight safety question - chutes |
Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" _jb92563@yahoo.com_
(mailto:jb92563@yahoo.com)
I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?
Do you wear a parachute?
Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?
Do not have any kind of parachute?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hey Ray
For safety I usually wear my parachute while holding my throwable chute in my
lap and with my free hand on the Firing handle of my ballistic chute .....
............. : - ))
..............................................................................
..............Just kidding.... LOL
The best safety device you can have is to do a very good pre-flight of your
airplane before you go flying... Making sure your plane is safe and reliable to
fly and the weather is good .
I have a ballistic parachute on my airplane that is used as a last resort .
As most of the other pilots that I know do too . .
I don't know of any one flying our type of birds that wears a parachute . It
would be almost impossible to successfully get out of our planes in flight and
then to successfully deploy the chute.
Anyone agree ?
Stevon Baxley
Kolb Firefly
Pansey, Alabama
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