Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:53 AM - Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (icrashrc)
2. 04:10 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (Dana Hague)
3. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (Larry Bourne)
4. 05:43 AM - Re:Remote Carb Adjustment (Eugene Zimmerman)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: a flying day (robert bean)
6. 08:52 AM - Olden day motors (Mike Welch)
7. 12:44 PM - Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (R. Hankins)
8. 12:50 PM - Re: a flying day (icrashrc)
9. 01:24 PM - Re: a flying day (gary aman)
10. 02:46 PM - Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (JetPilot)
11. 02:50 PM - Re: a flying day (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
12. 02:55 PM - Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (JetPilot)
13. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (Larry Bourne)
14. 04:53 PM - Re: Olden day motors (Eugene Zimmerman)
15. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (Russ Kinne)
16. 05:35 PM - Worlds largest engine is a 2-stroke (Eugene Zimmerman)
17. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: a flying day (Larry Cottrell)
18. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (Richard Girard)
19. 07:24 PM - Re: Worlds largest engine is a 2-stroke (Dana Hague)
20. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke (N27SB@aol.com)
21. 09:12 PM - Re: Re:Remote Carb Adjustment (Jim Baker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
As far as a servo driver there's no need to reinvent the wheel.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3874
A standard servo with a gear drive would be more than enough to move a mixture
needle.
http://www.servocity.com/html/mechanicals___accessories.html
[/quote]
There are some really powerful 1/4 scale servos out there that would
work nicely to control a needle. All one would need is the pulse
width generating electronics to control the servo....about $6 in
parts and $15 for the servo. An easy project, electronically. The
harder part would be building a servo mount. Perhaps a gear drive
set?
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146406#146406
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
At 06:53 AM 11/16/2007, icrashrc wrote:
>
>As far as a servo driver there's no need to reinvent the wheel...
If I was just building a remote mixture control I wouldn't use electronics
at all; a simple push/pull cable would suffice. The electronics would be
needed to interpret the O2 sensor's signal voltage and move the servo as
required.
Some outfits sell O2 sensor driven display units. They don't control
anything, just display what the sensor is seeing. That might be a good
start, as a manual tuning aid and to see how the sensor holds up.
-Dana
--
Resist militant "normality" -- A mind is a terrible thing to erase.
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
From what this 2 stroke beginner has read, the 2 main problems that
kill 2 strokes are mixture (heat) and lubrication. (mixture) Seems
like the ideas here could go a long way toward solving the mixture
problem, which would keep the heat and lubrication under control. A
pressure oiling system would bulletproof the lubrication problems.
Seems like I've read advertising somewhere (outboard motor mfr ??) that
2 stroke motors with pressure oiling systems have been built/are being
built. I realize that would run the weight up some and increase
complexity, but again, seems like the increased reliability would be
worth it and still lighter than a 4 stroke. Also, modern fuel injection
systems are extremely reliable.
Lar. Do not Archive.
Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to
> mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We
> rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to
> the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the
> high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple
> and he never had an engine out.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Dana Hague wrote:
>>
>> At 08:08 PM 11/15/2007, Richard Girard wrote:
>>
>> The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center
>> classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it
>> wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability
>> standards.
>>
>> Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I
>> can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system
>> would be prohibitive.
>>
>> From time to time I've played with the idea of developing an
>> electronic carburetor adjustment system for the small 2-strokes used
>> on PPG's (nice thing about a PPG is that an engine failure during
>> testing is normally a non event). My thought was to use an oxygen
>> sensor in the exhaust to measure the air/fuel ratio, and some
>> electronics to drive an off the shelf R/C servo to adjust the main
>> mixture needle valve (most of these engines use Walbro pumper
>> carburetors). You could program it to keep as far on the rich side
>> of a stoichiometric ratio as desired. It would have to have a
>> failsafe mode, of course, to revert to a rich condition in the event
>> of failure of the O2 sensor, as well as during startup before the
>> sensor is hot enough to generate a signal (cars use heated sensors
>> for startup, until the exhaust is hot enough to keep the sensor hot,
>> but they require too much power for the lighting coil on a small
>> engine).
>>
>> On an engine with a float carburetor, it could control the mixture by
>> porting and metering manifold vacuum to the float bowl, similar to
>> how the altitude compensating carbs do it.
>>
>> FAR simpler than true fuel injection, and mechanically simple... but
>> unfortunately a little beyond my own electronics skills.
>>
>> Along those lines, has anybody tried the altitude compensating carbs
>> available for Rotax engines? Unfortunately they don't compensate for
>> air temperature as well...
>>
>> -Dana
>> --
>> Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has
>> enough power left to destroy America.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re:Remote Carb Adjustment |
A simple method I've used years ago on a JLO Rockwell (Cuyuna
predecessor ) is a speedometer cable fitted with a knob. It was
simple and it worked well.
On Nov 15, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent
> to mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on
> it. We rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the
> seat back to the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or
> out to adjust the high speed needle according to what the EGT was
> showing. Anvil simple and he never had an engine out.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: a flying day |
Larry, I too have a battery-gobbling early digital. After some
experimenting, the best
batteries I have found to date are:
DURACELL AA/HR6//DC1500 NiMH 2650mAh
I found them at Kmart.
I also use a slow charger that takes overnight to recharge.
BB
Message 6
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| Subject: | Olden day motors |
Eugene,
It was kind of funny to hear you mention you used to have an JLO Rockwell.
(JLO is pronounced ee-lo)
I had one, too, and as a matter of fact, I STILL have it. I bought it from the
guy that built and sold the "Goldwing" airplane. British guy, named Robin, IIRC.
Mine is a 430 cc, 30 hp, Mikuni pumper carb. I bought it for a project I was
working on, and then quit the project, but I still have the motor.
It looks just like the Cuyuna 440, but the spark plugs are canted, not straight
up. Although I haven't had it running in 30 years, I don't see why it would
run, with some proper tuning.
Mine has the external bearing support bolted onto the end. I seriously doubt
I would ever consider using this motor for anything that flies.
Anyway, I was just amused to hear someone else knew something about this motor.
Do Not Archive Mike Welch
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop by today.
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
Engine freaks,
Here is a link to a very large two stroke engine. It also happens to be the most
efficient internal combustion engine currently produced. It features pressure
lubrication and direct injection. It wont fit on a Kolb, but you could fit
several Kolbs into it.
Do not archive
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146468#146468
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: a flying day |
Larry forwarded the rest of the pics he had. They are now posted online in front
of the others he shared.
http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/larryc.htm
I'm trying out a slideshow format on this page. Any comments, good or bad, would
be appreciated. Send them directly to me.
icrashrc@ aol dot com
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146471#146471
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: a flying day |
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
Jim ODay wrote:
>
>
> I "can afford a 4 stroke"; what type of 4 stroke can be used on the Firestar,
or is that not an option?
>
> If 2 stoke is my only option, I have a 477, ...... is a dual ignition model more
reliable? Or is it the proper tuning that is the primary key to good
service?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
Hi Jim
The best engine for the Firestar appears to be the HKS 4 stroke engine. Dave
Bigelow installed an HKS engine on his Firestar to fly over very hostile terrain
in Hawaii, and has had very good luck with it. Although there is only one
case of the HKS on a Kolb that I know of, Dave is very technically competent and
has posted an about his setup on this forum:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=13013&highlight=hks
Trikes have been much faster to adopt the HKS engine, it is now the engine of choice
on the more expensive Mid Sized trikes that are to small for a 912's.
The reliability, and smoothness of this engine is well known in the many trikes
flying this engine.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146489#146489
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: a flying day |
_gaman@att.net_ (mailto:gaman@att.net) your shooting blanks man fix your
gun
Couldnt resist ...LOL
Ellery
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
Jim ODay wrote:
>
>
> If 2 stoke is my only option, I have a 477, ...... is a dual ignition model more
reliable? Or is it the proper tuning that is the primary key to good
service?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
I also fly a Trike with a 447 on it, and the main drawback of the 447 is the single
ignition system. With a single ignition 447, a fouled plug, bad wire, cap
comming lose, etc. etc. etc. will all bring you out of the sky. The engine
might run on one cylender, but it wont produce a usable amount of power.
For a 2 stroke, a 503 is a more reliable choice because of the dual ignition systems.
It has a little extra power which is nice also :) . As far as more
info on 2 strokes, I use the Rotax books, and never exceed the limits they set.
Another good thing is never run the 2 stroke at its full rated RPM. If you
look at the power curve, max torque occours well below MAX RPM, and gives much
less abuse to the engine. Try to get the last couple HP out of the engine with
near limit RPM's, and your reliability and engine life well go WAY DOWN.
One good rule of thumb is to set your RPM for max power RPM MINUS 10 % static,
which is close to 5900 RPM on a 503 and 447, and fine adjust from there according
to the EGT's, and required power in the various phases of flight.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146490#146490
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
No link, Roger. Lar. Do not Archive.
R. Hankins wrote:
>
> Engine freaks,
>
> Here is a link to a very large two stroke engine. It also happens to be the
most efficient internal combustion engine currently produced. It features pressure
lubrication and direct injection. It wont fit on a Kolb, but you could
fit several Kolbs into it.
>
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> Roger in Oregon
> 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146468#146468
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Olden day motors |
Yup,
I still have one or two around also. Much better engine than the
Chrysler West Bend it replaced. :-)
We have come a long way since three miles out and back was considered
a long cross country.
Gene
On Nov 16, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
>
>
> Eugene,
>
> It was kind of funny to hear you mention you used to have an JLO
> Rockwell. (JLO is pronounced ee-lo)
> I had one, too, and as a matter of fact, I STILL have it. I bought
> it from the guy that built and sold the "Goldwing" airplane.
> British guy, named Robin, IIRC.
> Mine is a 430 cc, 30 hp, Mikuni pumper carb. I bought it for a
> project I was working on, and then quit the project, but I still
> have the motor.
> It looks just like the Cuyuna 440, but the spark plugs are
> canted, not straight up. Although I haven't had it running in 30
> years, I don't see why it would run, with some proper tuning.
> Mine has the external bearing support bolted onto the end. I
> seriously doubt I would ever consider using this motor for anything
> that flies.
> Anyway, I was just amused to hear someone else knew something
> about this motor.
>
> Do Not Archive Mike Welch
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf.
> Stop by today.
> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
AIN'T NO LINK HERE!
do not archive
On Nov 16, 2007, at 3:43 PM, R. Hankins wrote:
>
> Engine freaks,
>
> Here is a link to a very large two stroke engine. It also happens
> to be the most efficient internal combustion engine currently
> produced. It features pressure lubrication and direct injection.
> It wont fit on a Kolb, but you could fit several Kolbs into it.
>
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> Roger in Oregon
> 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146468#146468
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Worlds largest engine is a 2-stroke |
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: a flying day |
It looked good to me.Thanks
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "icrashrc" <icrashrc@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 1:50 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: a flying day
>
> Larry forwarded the rest of the pics he had. They are now posted online in
> front of the others he shared.
>
> http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/larryc.htm
>
> I'm trying out a slideshow format on this page. Any comments, good or bad,
> would be appreciated. Send them directly to me.
> icrashrc@ aol dot com
>
> --------
> Scott
>
> www.ill-EagleAviation.com
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146471#146471
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
Jim, You see Rotax selling any ultralight engines with the R.A.V.E.
exhaust anymore? When those electronic fuel injection units have a
problem in a snowmobile, what's the worst that can happen? Then you
have the problem of powering them with a dynamo that's already
strapped for power output. The ignition systems use dedicated coils to
power them, where do you find the room to put in some more? Rotax goes
to great effort to engineer a light reliable engine. If they had a
fuel injection system of aircraft reliability and light weight, do you
think they would not offer it?
Yeah, all that snowmobile stuff is great, look at the difference
between the power of a 582 and a 583. more than 25% more power for the
583. How many successful 583 applications have you seen on an
airplane?
Hirth has been advertising fuel injection for around ten years, if it
were the next great panacea, don't you think you'd be seeing more of
them in the air?
Rick
On Nov 15, 2007 10:29 PM, Jim Baker <jlbaker@msbit.net> wrote:
>
> X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%:
>
> > Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to
> > mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We
> > rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to
> > the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the
> > high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple
> > and he never had an engine out.
> >
> > Richard Pike
> > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> Richard has a sterling idea...but let's extend this out a bit.
>
> http://www.acroname.com/robotics/info/ideas/continuous/continuous.html
>
> There are some really powerful 1/4 scale servos out there that would
> work nicely to control a needle. All one would need is the pulse
> width generating electronics to control the servo....about $6 in
> parts and $15 for the servo. An easy project, electronically. The
> harder part would be building a servo mount. Perhaps a gear drive
> set?
>
> And then this......
>
> > > The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center
> > > classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it
> > > wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability
> > > standards.
>
> Gee....hope Rotax doesn't hear about this.....
>
> "Two-stroke, twin-cylinder Rotax(R), Fuel Injection, R.A.V.E.TM exhaust;
> Water cooled"
>
> On what? SeaDoo GTi, Rotax powered.
>
> > > Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I
> > > can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system would
> > > be prohibitive.
>
> Now, I'm sure you'll try to tell me that JetSki engines are apples
> and UL engines are oranges. Several other two stroke engine lines
> have fuel injection: Fuji, Hirth, Orbital (especially Orbital),
> Mercury, OMC, Bimota.....it's not hard to do, just not worth it in
> the small volume world of UL sales. THAT is what Eric really means
> but doesn't have the heart to say. I can't imagine that all these
> companies would front all that research and $$$$, risking customer
> loyalty, for an unreliable product....even Rotax.
>
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> Elmore City, OK
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Worlds largest engine is a 2-stroke |
At 07:12 PM 11/16/2007, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
Now THAT'S one impressive engine!
The crosshead is an interesting design. The website talks it about it
eliminating side loading on the pistons, and it does that, but it also
isolates the space under the piston from the crankcase, so the latter can
be oil filled. More reciprocating mass of course, but I guess it's not
such a big deal at only 102 rpm! Of course piston lubrication would still
be an issue during lean running if such an engine were a transfer port
design (which this engine doesn't seem to be).
-Dana
--
Atheists are people who have no invisible means of support.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke |
In a message dated 11/16/2007 9:15:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jindoguy@gmail.com writes:
Hirth has been advertising fuel injection for around ten years, if it
were the next great panacea, don't you think you'd be seeing more of
them in the air?
It only Hirths for a moment
Steve B
Firefly 007/Floats
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re:Remote Carb Adjustment |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%:
> A simple method I've used years ago on a JLO Rockwell
> (Cuyunapredecessor ) is a speedometer cable fitted with a knob. It
> was simple and it worked well.
Simple is good...and this is about as simple as it gets. Unless
you're really in the experimenters mode and want to build an
electronic solution, this is probably the easiest way to go.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
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