Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:04 AM - Re: FS II (Dana Hague)
2. 05:15 AM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Russ Kinne)
3. 06:55 AM - Kolb-List Digest: Firestar (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com)
4. 08:18 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (JetPilot)
5. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed (pat ladd)
6. 11:22 AM - Re: Real Airplanes (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
7. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd)
8. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd)
9. 12:06 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd)
10. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed (Ed Chmielewski)
11. 02:57 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (beauford T)
12. 03:31 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (John Hauck)
13. 03:33 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd)
14. 03:34 PM - Re: FS II (pj.ladd)
15. 04:34 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Larry Cottrell)
16. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed (Michael Sharp)
17. 05:23 PM - Re: FS II (Wade Lawicki)
18. 07:55 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (WillUribe@aol.com)
Message 1
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At 01:28 AM 12/7/2007, Carlos wrote:
>I would say that the Kolb is more balanced than that of a quicksilver say
>about 60% rudder and 40 % aileron. You still need to use both to make a
>turn but once the turn starts, the FS will track the turn quite well.
With all that dihedral you can fly a Quicksilver all day without touching
the ailerons; the early Quicks didn't even have ailerons. On a Kolb you
can't do that, the rudder only coordinates the turn (like most airplanes).
>The tail wheel thing is really a non-event but I would still say get a bit
>of tail wheel practice if you can...
When I first flew my Ultrastar I hadn't flown a tailwheel plane in nearly
20 years (or _any_ plane in nearly a year). Tailwheel instruction is a
good idea, but if you can't, do a lot of fast taxiing on the runway... but
only if the runway (or adjacent grass) is wide enough and clear of
obstacles in case you lose it and swerve off the runway.
I don't like crow hops as a training method. The transition from takeoff /
climb to descent / landing is tricky and unnatural. It's better to have
plenty of time to set up and stabilize your landing approach from several
hundred feet rather than starting it just before you have to flare. I did
a lot of crow hops learning to fly a weightshift Quicksilver, and it still
didn't prepare me for my first (and last, but that's another story!) trip
around the pattern.
-Dana
--
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
A wide runway will give some room to swerve, or get off track, no
matter what the airplane. Just gives you more room, and more time,
to get things back in order.
Far as I can see, Kolbs are as good as, or better than the others.
Many planes tend tp swerve a little when they get light on the wheels
-- that's what the rudder is used for, to correct the swings.
On Dec 6, 2007, at 10:38 PM, propwash wrote:
>
> One of the posters mentioned that I should practice on a wide
> runnway? Is there any reason for that? Do you need a wider runway
> than normal with a Kolb? I have heard that when the plane gets up
> on both mains it has a desire to swerve to the right.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150929#150929
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Kolb-List Digest: Firestar |
My Firestar Experiance ...
1> Reduce power Slowly or you will be un expectantly airborne !
2. Have a Full tank of fuel !
3. Know what the field looks like from the Air !
4. Gently fly it in Dont drop it 20' Like I did ....
Good Luck E-Mail me directly if you will so we can compare Notes :-) Dave
.... N101SK
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
If you are new to tail wheel planes, landing a Kolb on grass is much easier than
on pavement. With grass, if you get a little yaw on landing, the tires slide
a bit and it is much more forgiving. If you get a bit sideways on pavement,
the wheels grip like crazy and there is a much greater chance of a ground loop.
A tailwheel plane is harder to land, no doubt about it. I also feel more limited
in crosswinds than I do in a tricycle gear plane. That being said, the Kolb
is a very nice and well designed plane, and its worth the effort to learn to
fly a taildragger. Given the structural issues I have read about with Challengers,
I would never even fly in one if someone offered me a ride.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150993#150993
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim tab information needed |
Seems to me that if someone wants a "real airplane" maybe they should
have bought one...>>
Even `real` airplanes suffer from elevator flutter. The Hawker
`Typhoon` which was the replacement for the Hurricane suffered so badly
that the fuselage tended to break off.
Had it not been for the tenacity and faith of `Roly` Beaumont, later
test pilot but at that time Sqdron Leader of the squadron which was
issued with these massive beasts it is highly likely that the `Tiffie`
would have been withdrawn and the RAF would have been robbed of one of
the best ground attack fighter bombers of the war. When equipped with
rockets it was deadly as any poor sod of a German caught in the Falaise
Pocket can testify
Pat
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Real Airplanes |
I keep hearing this "Real Airplane" thing. Kolbs ARE real airplanes!!!
According to the FAA some Fireflys aren't but the rest certainly are.
If we as flyers of these "airplanes" don't refer to them as such how is
the airplane community ever going to give us the respect we are due.
Getting off my soap box now.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: pat ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed
Seems to me that if someone wants a "real airplane" maybe they should
have bought one...>>
Even `real` airplanes suffer from elevator flutter. The Hawker
`Typhoon` which was the replacement for the Hurricane suffered so badly
that the fuselage tended to break off.
Had it not been for the tenacity and faith of `Roly` Beaumont, later
test pilot but at that time Sqdron Leader of the squadron which was
issued with these massive beasts it is highly likely that the `Tiffie`
would have been withdrawn and the RAF would have been robbed of one of
the best ground attack fighter bombers of the war. When equipped with
rockets it was deadly as any poor sod of a German caught in the Falaise
Pocket can testify
Pat
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Given the structural issues I have read about with Challengers, I would
never even fly in one if someone offered me a ride.>>
Hi ,
I would love to hear about them. I have flown a Challenger for years, built
it myself and it always struck me as very strongly engineered. I certainly
had nothing break and I banged her down pretty hard once or twice.
CVheers
Pat
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Then I started doing crow hops. >>
Hi Propwash,
DONT DO IT WHISKY VICTORS WAY>. It worked for him but I reckon he is
one lucky Joe. Taxi by all means, get used to the throttle position,
even taxy fast enough to get the tail up.
BUT! At that stage GO FOR IT. The last thing you need is messing about
with the ground close at just over flying speed. It is a recipe for
disaster. You get a puff of wind and suddenly you are a bit higher than
you intended and the end of the runway or a hedge is coming up and you
close the throttle a bit quick.....Kapoww.
Get 1000ft under you and you have time to sort things out.
Pat
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
My distinct
impression was that the rudder was only loosely affiliated with the
remainder of the airplane... and that the relationship was somewhat
antagonistic...
Hiya Beauford.
You have a way with words. That was great. I would disagree but I still
laughed.
Certainly the Challenger needs a bootful of rudder to lead into a turn, in
fact she won`t go round without it, but once you appreciate that fact..she`s
OK
Cheers
Pat
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim tab information needed |
Hi Mike S.,
Would be very interested in hearing about your electric trim
fluttering back-and-forth.
In over 30 years of flying, I've yet to see one do that. Have
had runaways and frozen trim problems, but never one go back-and-forth
independently. Not saying it's impossible, just have never heard of
such happening. I agree it's nearly impossible for an electric trim to
induce flutter. They don't work that fast. Haven't seen an NTSB report
citing such either.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Sharp
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed
No Mike, YOU ARE NOT!
I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth...
Seems to me that if someone wants a "real airplane" maybe they should
have bought one...
Mike
do not archive
.
.
Do Not Archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Brother Ladd...
I respect your more favorable impression of the Challenger's
characteristics, based as it is upon much more time in the machine than I
have... However, sir... I would ask you if your Challenger time is in the
UK approved variant...? According to the NTSB documentation I have read, in
1994, the Popular Flying Association in the UK felt compelled to ban further
importation and sales of the Challenger until it was redesigned for the UK
with a 25% larger vertical tail and dorsal fin to remedy directional
stability deficiencies which prevented it from meeting UK certification
requirements. This inherent yaw instability was apparently further worsened
when the optional cabin side doors were fitted on the airplane, at which
point its yaw characteristics could become uncontrollable. If you haven't
seen it and you are interested in what the NTSB wrote to the Challenger
factory on the issue, see www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1996/A96_43_44.pdf
Your comment about needing a "bootful" was true enough...but that wasn't the
troubling part... I have flown planes that required healthy amounts of
rudder... With this ship, further increasing (gently, I thought) the rudder
input to the point which finally began to move the yaw string resulted in a
delayed perception that ever increasing amounts of rudder were continuing to
be fed in... despite my conscious attempt to add no more rudder than that
needed to begin the yaw correction process... It gave me the impression of
having divergent yaw stability...and I found it uncomfortable.
Now, Patrick, I am the first to admit that for all intents and purposes, I
am dead from the waist down... (I have been married 43 years)...and
kinesthetic inputs to my butt by airplanes are probably not as readily
recognized as they once were, but I had more trouble reading what this
little airplane was telling me through the rudder than any other machine I
can recall... I walked away from it disgusted with myself that I had not
done a better job of it, despite the check ride instructor's thumbs-up...
Most of all, it made me appreciate the Kolb for its lack of significant
vices... generally speaking, what one inputs is what one gets... and as long
as it has flying speed and is not wrapped up in an accelerated state, I am
convinced it will offer few surprises...even to a geezer like me...
Worth what ye paid fer it.
Do Not Archive
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Hiya Beauford.
. I would disagree cerrtainly the Challenger needs a bootful of rudder to
lead into a turn, in
fact she won`t go round without it, but once you appreciate that fact..she`s
OK
Cheers
Pat
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
> Brother Ladd...
> I respect your more favorable impression of the Challenger's
> characteristics, based as it is upon much more time in the machine than I
> have... > beauford
Beauford:
Thanks for your input on this thread.
I have never flown a Challenger, so I can not comment on how one flies, what
to do, and/or what not to do when flying one.
About the only thing I know about a Challenger is how to recognize a
Challenger pilot that has recently had a hard landing on the pointed end of
the airplane. Usually, they will be wearing a cast from the tips of their
toes to their waist. This is the result of wiping off the nose and nose
gear, leaving the pilots feet and legs to accomplish the remainder of the
crashing. I understand it is not too difficult to accomplish the wiping off
part since the nose gear is attached to an aluminum cross tube with two hose
clamps.
I must add, I am quite impressed with some of the comments the Kolb List has
been receiving on this thread. It always amazes me for folks with little or
no experience flying a Kolb to attempt to teach a new Kolb pilot how to fly
one for the first time over the internet. Glad I did not have access to the
computer back in 1984, when I completed my Ultrastar and flew it. I may
have used some of this unique computer based flying advice.
Folks on the receiving end of some of this advice would probably be
surprised to know some of their advisors have zero to very little actual
pilot in command time in a Kolb aircraft.
Despite the cold temps and lumpy air, I climbed aboard my mkIII and
committed aviation for the first time since my return flight from the Kolb
Flyin the end of Sep. All I can say it, it sure felt good to be in the air
in a real airplane once again.
Take care,
john h
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
UK approved variant...? >>
Hi ,
You are quite right. the wing loading did not meet the spec. of an ultrlight
at that time. A new wing length was introduced a little shorter than your
long wing version.
A dorsal extension to the tailplane was added after I had flown mine for
some time. I really couldn`t detect much difference.
I never flew the Challenger with doors. I opted for the open cockpit version
.
A challenger with doors, and a heightened engine fitting swinging a larger
prop, with a Hirth engeine (I think) won the Round Britain Rally 2 years
running. I remember the pilot told me they had to make the windscreen of
thicker Lexan because the higher speed with the bigger engine blew the
original one concave.
Pat
Message 14
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I'm a little worried about that first flight!>>
Hi,
I went from a Thuster, tail dragger, to the Challenger. As all tricycle
undercarts are weak at the nosewheel I always landed the Challenger nose
high very like a taildragger..Always on the mains and hold the nose off.
If you can do that in a Challenger you probably won`t have too much trouble
in the Kolb. Make sure you are into wind for the first flight. There is no
need to look for complications.
I was worried after all the stories on the list about the `Kolb quit`, how
many undercart legs have been broken , tails banging on the ground before
the mains touched down etc.before I flew ta Kolb.
Although my experience, what little I have had , has been with the Xtra I
have had no trouble landing. Keep the speed up a bit amd when the blur of
the grass changes so that you can see individual blades round out gently and
its no prob. DONT round out high. If you round out high on the Challenger
she will just sink slowly to the ground the Kolb will arrive a little more
sharply.
Good luck
Pat
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The
Challenger
>
> My distinct
> impression was that the rudder was only loosely affiliated with the
> remainder of the airplane... and that the relationship was somewhat
> antagonistic...
>
> Hiya Beauford.
>
> You have a way with words. That was great. I would disagree but I still
> laughed.
Hi Pat,
Beauford almost always makes me laugh, but I thought the description was
pretty accurate. The one that I took my check ride in had a disturbing
tendency to try its best to be a canard type plane and the only way once it
progressed so far to get it back in line was cross control the critter. (The
instructor had told me not to chase the rudder. Apparently that is a common
occurrence.) Once I flew it enough to get the hang of it every thing of
course was ok, but it wasn't what I would call fun, or make me want to do it
a lot.
Larry C
do not archive or have we given up on that. I seem to see it very rarely
anymore?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim tab information needed |
Ed,
Hello there. My statement was "I've seen several of electric motors flutter
back and forth". I never said anything about electric trim. I could go on and
on about that. but it is not Kolb related. I have had one electric trim motor
shutter on me but it was the motor and did not induce any control flutter. It
was a shutter that stopped when the switch shut down, as it should have.
I'm glad that you have had 30 yrs experience and have not had any malfunctions
in electic motors. good for you.
And to those that got their panties in a wad about my "real airplane" comment
it had nothing to do with our airplanes. it was a shot at those that want to
put more and more crap on our AIRPLANES that is not needed. As John Hauke is
well versed in saying. And I agree with him.
Mike,
Do not archive.
Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi Mike S.,
Would be very interested in hearing about your electric trim fluttering
back-and-forth.
In over 30 years of flying, I've yet to see one do that. Have had runaways
and frozen trim problems, but never one go back-and-forth independently.
Not saying it's impossible, just have never heard of such happening. I agree
it's nearly impossible for an electric trim to induce flutter. They don't
work that fast. Haven't seen an NTSB report citing such either.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Sharp
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed
No Mike, YOU ARE NOT!
I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth...
Seems to me that if someone wants a "real airplane" maybe they should have bought
one...
Mike
do not archive
.
.
Do Not Archive
Message 17
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I went from a 2 place sprint to my FS2, had lots of taxi practice with the tail
raised, no problem. on first flight i verified the stall speed for my asi and
made sure to fly the plane all the way in, it does not float like a sprint does.
If you make sure to reach the ground BEFORE your stall speed you will be
fine as the speed bleeds off fairly quick, making sure to hold the tail down.
Fly safe,
Wade
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151116#151116
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Greetings,
The Challenger has been around forever, it is an old design. I have flown my
friend's Challenger and it flys OK. IMHO not as fun as my FireStar, but when
I flew the Challenger with the doors on, it scared the hell out of me. I
just felt I didn't have the control authority I should have on any airplane. I
told my friend to remove the doors because if he ever lost the rudder he
would never be able to control it.
My friend has wiped out his noise gear twice and the main gear once. I was
with him in the back seat when we landed hard, the main gear cables broke and
one gear leg collapsed. That was the last time I flew in his Challenger.
Replacing the gear leg attachment is a major repair, you have to cut in half the
main aluminum tube that is part of the fuselage.
He really enjoys flying it, goes flying more then a couple of times a week.
Other then the X-Air he learned to fly in the Challenger is the only other
airplane he has flown.
I like to fly low and slow and the FireStar will get me out of trouble in a
hurry when the wind changes. The Challenger takes a little longer to react
to my inputs.
Hope this helps.
Will Uribe
FireStar II N4GU
El Paso, TX but working in Philadelphia, PA
do not archive
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