---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/08/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:06 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd) 2. 03:31 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd) 3. 04:12 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (pj.ladd) 4. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed (Charlie England) 5. 06:47 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII (robert bean) 6. 06:56 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII (John Hauck) 7. 07:18 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Larry Cottrell) 9. 08:38 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Wade Lawicki) 10. 09:24 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (JetPilot) 11. 09:47 AM - Re: Elevator trim tab information needed (JetPilot) 12. 09:56 AM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII (JetPilot) 13. 12:12 PM - Reinventing the trim wheel (Mike Welch) 14. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (beauford T) 15. 02:59 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Jim ODay) 16. 07:07 PM - Kolb-List HELP ! I need firestar weight and balance (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com) 17. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed (Michael Sharp) 18. 08:04 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (azfirestar) 19. 08:40 PM - Re: need advice on extra fuel tank hook up (azfirestar) 20. 11:04 PM - AN hardware - Is there a replacement schedule or useful life (John H Murphy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:58 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger the main gear cables broke and one gear leg collapsed. >> Good grief Will, I would have bet you could lift the Titanic with that braided cable. Even after the cable breaks there is the torsion of the main fuselage longerons, which must be around 1,1/4"" in diameter. I am surprised you didn`t break your back with an impact like that. If he makes many similar landings and with a rcord of wiping off nosewheels i don`t think I would want to fly with him at all. Friendship is a wonderful thing. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:53 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger only way once it progressed so far to get it back in line was cross control the critter>> Hi Larry, a lot of people seem to be running down the poor old Challenger so I assume therer must be something in it.. Perhaps it is something to do with the doors. As i selected the open cockpit version I never flew one with doors on. I can only say that I almost always sideslipped in to a landing at my field, because I like doing it, but as soon as I let go of the fully crossed controls she would straighten up. That doesn`t sound to me like a plane without directional stability. Perhaps that dorsal fin addition to the tail fin really did work. I remember seeing about 5 Challengers waiting to take off from some west coast airfield, Seattle or Vancouver, and I noticed that none of them had the dorsal fin. Perhaps it is unusual over there. With our system if a fault was discovered the PFA would prscribe a `fix" and ALL planes would have to be modified. Immediately if it was potentially dangerous fault, by the next C of A if it was considered minor. In my case the dealer rang me, we fixed a date and he arrived and fitted the dorsal fin in my hangar within a few days. That does seem to indicate some urgency. Usually the pilot is left to make his own arrangements. Perhaps without the dorsal fin she really was as bad as you suggest. The Challenger is not alone in needing a dorsal fin. I remember the B-17 had one added pretty quickly after the original design reached Squdrn service. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:18 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger I understand it is not too difficult to accomplish the wiping off part since the nose gear is attached to an aluminum cross tube with two hose clamps.>> Not exactly right John, The nosewheel IS held on by two hose clamps but ham handedness is required to wipe it off. I did put a couple extra jubilee clips on mine and the nose wheel was solid as a rock. Mind you I never wheelbarrowed the plane in on the nosewheel as is seen quite often with tricycle undercart designs. That will collapse them no matter what sort of plane it is. I always operated from a farmers field which was not particlarly smooth and never had any trouble. The Challenger should have minimal weight on the nose, she sits on the tail wheel when the pilot is not aboard, and the nosewheel is designed to keep the nose off the ground and to steer with. Thats all. If the pilot puts a load on any part of a plane which is outside the design parameters, it will break. Regarding low time Kolb pilots giving advice on flying. I freely admit that I am in that category. It is also obvious that some pilots, particularly in the early days of ultralighting, taught themselves to fly. There was no other way. Some pilots got away with it but a lot were hurt and to recommend that course in these days when alternatives are available seems a bit perverse. My comments were not based on my Kolb flying experience but on the accumulated experience of ALL pilots. Messing about just above the stall close to the ground is dangerous. Just as Neptune is always waiting for a sailor to make a mistake, Mr Newton is always there waiting for a pilot to mess up.It is simple enough, You get about 20 ft up in still air, 5 knots above the stall, a thermal goes up from a nearby field drawing air into itelf. Your still air changes to 5 knots on the tail, the plane stops flying, you have no height to get the nose down....Kaboong! I have been there. When I was learning hang gliding I tried to take off as the wind dropped and broke my leg. Lucky to get away with it. Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:36 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed I think y'all are chasing the wrong gremlin. It isn't that the motor is oscillating, it's the fact that the combination of weight, linkage, trim tab, mounting method, etc changes the aerodynamic characteristics of the control surface & the new assembly *might* be more likely to flutter. All that extra stuff will have its own resonant frequency and it will also change the resonant frequency of the control surface it's attached to. BTW, oscillation *can* happen if you're using a servo-type motor & controller instead of a plain DC gear motor & simply reversing the power leads to drive it. Charlie Ed Chmielewski wrote: > Hi Mike S., > > Would be very interested in hearing about your electric trim > fluttering back-and-forth. > > In over 30 years of flying, I've yet to see one do that. Have > had runaways and frozen trim problems, but never one go back-and-forth > independently. Not saying it's impossible, just have never heard of > such happening. I agree it's nearly impossible for an electric trim to > induce flutter. They don't work that fast. Haven't seen an NTSB report > citing such either. > > Ed in JXN > MkII/503 > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Michael Sharp > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:39 PM > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed > > No Mike, YOU ARE NOT! > > I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth... > > Seems to me that if someone wants a "real airplane" maybe they > should have bought one... > > Mike ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:34 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII Jus' smack it down. I always enjoy newspaper reports of off-field landings, usually reported as a "crash". The most amusing was a recent touch down in one of the Finger Lakes reported as a "crash" -maybe a splash instead? BB do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:19 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII > Jus' smack it down. > BB Bob B: Easy to tell when Bob's brain starts to chill from the Rochester winters. How is work progressing on your mkIII? Put skis, or better yet, ice skates on it and go fly. ;-) john h mkIII 58F and rising...................... ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:29 AM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger one more thing on a Challenger that I didn't care about I had taken a passenger with me once in one and all he complained about was there is not enough room for his feet and he could not operate the rudder good enough from the back seat one of the Challengers I know about on his first few attempts of flying the rig had managed to break one of the main gear cables on a hard landing after a short flight a 100 feet or so down the strip and it scared the $h!t out of him and he told me he didn't have any rudder control and there was something wrong with the plane so I helped him fix it and he wasn't to crazy about trying it again, so I tried it for him and it was like the other challengers I have flown, that's just the way they are. that built confidence in him enough to try it on a later date and he has had a few incidents with it smashed nose up a couple times To keep this KOLB related I am still building MK3xtra and Going to stick with KOLB Airplanes Ellery do not archive **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:04 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger ----- Original Message ----- From: "pj.ladd" Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger > > only way once it progressed so far to get it back in line was cross > control the critter>> > > Hi Larry, > a lot of people seem to be running down the poor old Challenger so I > assume therer must be something in it.. Perhaps it is something to do with > the doors. As i selected the open cockpit version I never flew one with > doors on. Perhaps that was the problem with the one that I flew. It was cold as could be (30's) and I was glad to have something to keep the wind off me. The problem didn't occur in slipping in for a landing, ( I did that a lot as the instructor wanted me to land on a announced spot for my check ride) it was in the straight flight that the tail wanted to lead. I learned a lot and if I didn't know what a Kolb flew like, I probably wouldn't have known any better. They have some good features no doubt, just not enough to prefer one over a Kolb. Larry C do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:11 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger From: "Wade Lawicki" There is alot of talk about the challenger design on other lists also.More of possible design flaws that have gone unchanged do to liability issues. They cant go back and say something was flawed without opening up litigation. The main point being the leading edge attachment using a RONY bracket that was originally used on the single place and has not been changed since , and is also used on the 2 place models. Other issues are in a spar slice at the root section of the wing. here is a snip from the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quicksilverultralightowners - "I just left the drug store with the negatives of a 2 place challenger that came apart 4 years ago Killing both on board, I Represented USUA on the incident and partook in the investigation, I would show the video of the incident but the families don't deserve to re-live the trauma. I will post the investigative photos of the aftermath. Then you all can be the judge, Just know the flaw not only lies in the Ronny brackets/attach, it also exists in the Spar Splice at the root of the trailing edge which is in the wrong place to start and it is not a tight fit, its to short and to many rivets concentrated without any standard pattern, that matches AC-4313 for tube splices. In addition you have an airframe that is sold with no corrosion protection,stainless rivets,in an alclad frame with bare steel parts to boot, its a flying battery. I addressed my concerns and finding,reviewed a build manual only to be turned away by Dave Guliet.....What a pity because this could all be avoided. It will rear its ugly head as theses planes continue to age........Mark My words! " Al Sibi Director of Production Indus Aviation Dallas Texas Former Quick Dealer/ Region 4 USUA Regional Rep Former Vice President Jersey Shore Ultralights 96-2000 I do not own or fly a challenger so, I make no claims myself but have heard this over and over on many lists but the challenger list and believe that anyone considering flying or buying one should be fully informed and cautious. Fly Safe, Wade do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151178#151178 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:25 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger From: "JetPilot" pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > > Hi , > I would love to hear about them. I have flown a Challenger for years, built > it myself and it always struck me as very strongly engineered. > > Pat When making the decision of which plane to buy, I did a lot of research on accidents and failures. In my research, one thing that turned up time and time again was structural failures of Challengers. Documented cases, people talking about problems, it came up again and again. Structural failures was reason enough to keep me away from this plane, but that combined with the rudder, and other things make it one of the very worst designs out there. I suggest doing google searches of things like Challenger structural failure, problems, etc. etc. Use lots of words and also use the advanced search to exclude the word shuttle... It takes a while, but if you use imagination and take the time, you can find lots of good information. It is very common for a person that has a plane to like it, and gain a false sense of security in it even if it is a bad, dangerous design. I would suggest that you do research on the web, the information is there, lots of cases and discussion, if you really want to know the truth about Challengers. I also did the same type of research on Kolb aircraft, and found very few cases of structural failures. The things that caused the failures in the Kolbs are mostly older and have been fixed. More ribs in wings, better welding... What I never saw with Kolbs were lots unexplained failures and people talking about lots of structural problems in relation to Kolbs. Made for an easy choice :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151182#151182 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:53 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed From: "JetPilot" Michael Sharp wrote: > Ed, > > Hello there. My statement was "I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth". I never said anything about electric trim. --- The discussion is about electric trim, and you made this statement in response to an electric trim discussion, you very clearly implied that you were talking about electric trim. Michael Sharp wrote: > > No Mike, YOU ARE NOT! > I know we have had our disagreements in the past. It is obvious that you were so anxious to jump into this and take sides, you were willing to post bad and misleading information just so that you could jump on the bandwagon. Now that this is not going the way you thought, and there is no group bashing, your response is " I did not say what I posted ". Maybe getting over past differences would be the best way to go here. People come here for good information about Kolbs, we should try to post good and accurate information, not just try to disagree with someone you don't like. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151184#151184 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII From: "JetPilot" John Hauck wrote: > > > Put skis, or better yet, ice skates on it and go fly. ;-) > > john h > mkIII 58F and rising...................... Ice Skates, now there is an idea, No Drag !!! Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151185#151185 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:20 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Reinventing the trim wheel Kolb masses, It was me that requested "trim design change" suggestions. Thanks to all that offered their opinions on the value of changing the current design. While I have a tendency to always want to reinvent the "wheel", I think i n this case I will follow Jonh H.'s and Bob B.'s advice. If they are quite satisfied with the present performance of the airplane's trim as designed, I don't see any reason to change to a new unproven modification. For those that definitely plan to install an electric trim of their own d esign, I would certainly be intersted in their opinion of it's performance, and maybe some photos. If, for watever reason, I am not quite satisfied w ith the current design, then maybe I may change at some future date, after I have had sufficient experience to make an intelligent comparison. But...why change it, if works fine like it is. I've been a re-installing the fuselage fabric (Poly Fiber) yesterday and today. Boy, it is always facinating to watch that stuff shrink up tight as a drum, like you knew what you were doing!! Headin' back to the shop, I'd sure like to finish the fuelage fabric toda y. Mike Welch Kolb MkIII "Second hundred years" (Remember that TV show?) Do Not Archive PS Rick G. Did you get my off-list email? _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i=92m Init iative now. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:55 PM PST US From: "beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger Talked today with the CFI who gave me the BFR in his Challenger II... The subject of this Kolb List thread on the Challengers came up. He is a retired military aviator with boucoup (old Vietnamese term) hours, who is also a graduate aeronautical engineer, current FAA A&E, IA, etc.... He said that he recently experienced the loss of his Challenger's factory provided plastic rudder trim tab in flight and the experience was memorable... to be explicit, he said it "scared the living s#%t out of me..." He indicated that the airplane became almost uncontrollable with any significant amount of engine power applied, constantly wanting to turn hard to the left, and it took constant application of full right rudder to maintain sufficient control to limp back to the airport. It was only when he cut the power on short final that the airplane became controllable with normal inputs... He expressed surprise that this relatively small tab could have such a profound effect on the controllability of the airplane. He fabricated a new trim tab from aluminum sheet and said he would never use the stock plastic item again. sounds exciting.... Worth what ye paid fer it.... beauford Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wade Lawicki" I do not own or fly a challenger so, I make no claims myself but have heard this over and over on many lists but the challenger list and believe that anyone considering flying or buying one should be fully informed and cautious. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:10 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger From: "Jim ODay" The name of the plane says it all. do not archive -------- Jim O'Day Fargo, ND Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151210#151210 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:54 PM PST US From: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb-List HELP ! I need firestar weight and balance anyone Here have a copy of their Firestar weight and balance so I have some starting point .... 377 Rotax , Minimal Instruments ,No Brakes , 5 gallon fuel tank Behind pilot E mail me directly Thanks ! Dave ************************************** Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:48 PM PST US From: Michael Sharp Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator trim tab information needed NO SIR! The reply that i made was to a Kolber who stated that servo's and or motors chatter or flutter. You are the one who is in error once again! JetPilot wrote: Michael Sharp wrote: > Ed, > > Hello there. My statement was "I've seen several of electric motors flutter back and forth". I never said anything about electric trim. --- The discussion is about electric trim, and you made this statement in response to an electric trim discussion, you very clearly implied that you were talking about electric trim. Michael Sharp wrote: > > No Mike, YOU ARE NOT! > I know we have had our disagreements in the past. It is obvious that you were so anxious to jump into this and take sides, you were willing to post bad and misleading information just so that you could jump on the bandwagon. Now that this is not going the way you thought, and there is no group bashing, your response is " I did not say what I posted ". Maybe getting over past differences would be the best way to go here. People come here for good information about Kolbs, we should try to post good and accurate information, not just try to disagree with someone you don't like. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151184#151184 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger From: "azfirestar" I found the postings on the rudder effectiveness of the Challenger very interesting. The stability of a flying object about any axis is derived from the center of gravity (CG) being in front of the center of pressure (i.e. aerodynamic surface area). I almost became an aviation statistic about 10 years ago as a passenger in a friend's Challenger II (the only time I ever wanted to jump out of a plane). The CG was aft because of me (170 lb) in the back seat and the heavier 582 engine, and the center of pressure was forward because of the surface area of the doors. The net result was the aircraft was not yaw-stable when the engine was throttled back and propwash reduced over the rudder. The rudder was almost totally ineffective on final approach and we came very close to spinning in during multiple attempts to land. If you have a Challenger II with a lighter engine, no doors, and/or flying solo, then you may not experience any problems. If the manufacturer has not done anything about the yaw stability, then I consider that disreputable. Unfortunately, as someone said before, the legal repercussions of admitting the mistake are probably a big factor. In regard to your first flight in a any aircraft, I don't recommend the crow hops down the runway if you are a low time pilot. If you are a good pilot it may not be an issue, but the quick transitions from take off to landing could easily get a low time pilot into an awkward situation. I have read multiple accident reports where someone was taxi testing an aircraft, got airborne unexpectedly and stalled due to some combination of unusual attitude, low airspeed, and insufficient throttle. -------- Dan G. 503 Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151243#151243 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: need advice on extra fuel tank hook up From: "azfirestar" If you want more range then you might want to get the 6 gal tanks from Kolb. I bought two of them and they fit fine in my Firestar II. The new tanks actually hold 6.5 gal when filled as high as the old ones needed to be to get 5 gal. I also switched to a bottom-drain configuration (instead of the pickup tube coming out the top of the tank). Now it doesn't matter that the aft tank is a little higher than the fwd tank in flight - both drain down to a low point in a 3/8" fuel line. I can suck them dry without worrying about fuel splashing away from the pickup because the 3/8 fuel like acts like a low sump. I never plan to go anywhere without the required 30-min reserve, but it is a great safety feature in case you run into an unanticipated headwind and there is no place to make a good landing. Also, I can now get a true 30 minutes from the lower part of the tank instead of having to leave 2 gallons in there to ensure the pickups do not suck air. All together I gained about 5 gallons usable fuel without having to add an extra tank. -------- Dan G. 503 Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151248#151248 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:00 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: AN hardware - Is there a replacement schedule or useful life From: "John H Murphy" The AN hardware that attaches the wings, wing struts, tail feathers, etc. Is there a useful life for this hardware? My aircraft is about 7 years old. 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