Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:44 AM - Re: Landing in High Grass (Thom Riddle)
2. 08:53 AM - Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (jb92563)
3. 09:16 AM - Re: Landing in High Grass (John Hauck)
4. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
5. 01:12 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
6. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (russ kinne)
7. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (John Hauck)
8. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
9. 02:26 PM - Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (planecrazzzy)
10. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Bob Noyer)
11. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (robert bean)
12. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Bryan Dever)
13. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (John Hauck)
14. 03:52 PM - Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Thom Riddle)
15. 04:07 PM - Re: Landing in High Grass (Thom Riddle)
16. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Bryan Dever)
17. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: Landing in High Grass (Ben Ransom)
18. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (John Hauck)
19. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (N27SB@aol.com)
20. 07:19 PM - Kolb Photos for the Winter (John Williamson)
21. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Richard Pike)
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Subject: | Re: Landing in High Grass |
....I'll bet no Kolbs will nose over at full power run ups, plenty of
elevator authority with all that prop blast..
Denny,
I'm guessing you've never flown an early Firestar with 377. It would
nose over with the least bit of encouragement.Even on smooth pavement,
take-off required gradual throttle advancing to prevent nose-over. My
current early FS has longer than standard main gear legs and 447 and
suffers no such problem.
Thom in Buffalo
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
Another option if you believe you might not pass a class 3 medical, but want to
still fly E-AB is to register your unregistered aircraft as a E-AB glider "type".
As long as it is not being "type" approved you can call anything you built a glider.
You will however require a private glider license with self launch endorsement
to fly it and would limit the resale value due to it requiring a private glider
lic but Private Glider has a "Self declared" medical so you do not even need
a drivers license.
Once it is registered AND COA'd you can not change it to another type.
Certainly a niche but perhaps might suit some pilots needs in odd situations.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152691#152691
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Subject: | Re: Landing in High Grass |
Thom:
A couple comments to wake the List up.
Sounds to me like you are either exagerating or need to improve your
piloting technique.
Not hard for a low time, ham fisted pilot to put one on its nose. For that
matter, I have put my old FS, factory MKIII and FF on their noses, when
flying with a fat passenger and/or had momentary brain lock. MKIII and FF
nose overs always seem to occur in front of a crowd, especially at Sun and
Fun.
However, I don't believe the Kolbs are nearly as prone to nose over as you
describe. Maybe initially, but with a little time the pilot soon learns to
compensate and think ahead of the airplane.
"Even on smooth pavement, take-off required gradual throttle advancing to
prevent nose-over."
With the stick back, the elevator has plenty of authority to keep from
nosing over. In my case during a lapse of pilot technique, I stuck the tail
in the wind, forgot to get the stick forward, then let a little power,
forward weight, and tail wind wake me up.
john h
mkIII
"I'm guessing you've never flown an early Firestar with 377. It would nose
over with the least bit of encouragement.Even on smooth pavement, take-off
required gradual throttle advancing to prevent nose-over. My current early
FS has longer than standard main gear legs and 447 and suffers no such
problem.
Thom in Buffalo"
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
Ray
I'm don't understand why you would want to do this. The E-AB is a aircraft
registration that includes most categories including the LSA category which
doesn't require a medical. I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a
medical.
Also the other day someone talked about 16 hour course that allows you to
maintain your ELSA aircraft. The key word is "your" airplane. I think there
is a longer course that allows you to work on other peoples ELSA & LSA with
less than a A&E certification?
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "jb92563" <jb92563@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA
>
> Another option if you believe you might not pass a class 3 medical, but
> want to still fly E-AB is to register your unregistered aircraft as a E-AB
> glider "type".
>
> As long as it is not being "type" approved you can call anything you built
> a glider.
>
> You will however require a private glider license with self launch
> endorsement to fly it and would limit the resale value due to it requiring
> a private glider lic but Private Glider has a "Self declared" medical so
> you do not even need a drivers license.
>
> Once it is registered AND COA'd you can not change it to another type.
>
> Certainly a niche but perhaps might suit some pilots needs in odd
> situations.
>
> --------
> Ray
> Riverside County, CA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152691#152691
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Not trying to beat this dead horse any more than necessary (and with no
offense to our fellow former-Challenger-owning Kolbers), but here's what
I've seen, from my limited experience with Challengers:
My flying buddy at my home airport owns a Challenger II (long wing) with
a 503. You've heard me mention this guy - when we go flying together, I
always let him depart first, because he has a dismal climb rate compared
to my 912 Mark-III. I catch up to him in short order. But after we
form up and are in cruise, he can easily outrun my draggy Kolb.
This Challenger's empty weight is nearly 800 pounds (!!), so he has VERY
little excess power - especially at our field elevation of 6500 feet
MSL. This, coupled with the fact that Challengers are known for their
lack of rudder authority, was the setup for disaster this past
September.
He took off on a warm, thermally afternoon to practice some touch and
go's. Lots of dust devils in the area. On his third circuit, after
takeoff, he was about 100 feet high and climbing (barely) when his
Challenger experienced an un-commanded yaw to the right. Instinctively,
he put in left rudder, but with no effect. Even with full left rudder
(and still at full power), the plane's nose was still swinging to the
right. Meanwhile, with airflow no longer blowing over his wings from
directly head on, he began losing lift and was losing altitude quickly
while in a flat attitude.
He ended up pancaking it into the ground while still at full power.
Destroyed the aircraft. My friend was lucky to escape this incident
with only bangs & bruises and a sprained ankle. The most likely cause
of this accident was that he encountered a horizontal wind shear (like a
large dust devil, but without the dust) due to the unstable air near the
surface that day. This Challenger did not have sufficient rudder
authority to overcome the horizontal wind gradient, nor did it have
sufficient power to penetrate or outclimb it.
While this set of weather conditions could happen to any of us, I like
to think that a Kolb would likely fare better if thrown in the same
situation. I have the confidence that, with our better climb rates (if
not overloaded), and better directional stability, our Kolbs could more
easily overcome this kind of horizontal shear gradient.
Happy I chose a Kolb -
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, 912, N93DK in
Cedar Crest, NM
Do not archive
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
Richard
Now I'm confused. you write
" I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."
I didn't think this was legal. Did you just let the medical lapse?
I've been told if you fail to PASS a medical, you can't fly a thing,
but if it expires you can still fly ELSA & gliders.
What's the straight scoop? I sure don't know, but I'd like to.
Russ Kinne
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
> " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."
> I didn't think this was legal. > Russ Kinne
MKIII falls into the SP category, I believe, along with a lot of other
experimental homebuilts. A J3 is GA, but you can fly it with SP license.
Correct me if I am thinking wrong.;
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
That's right I legally fly a E-AB that falls in the LSA category without a
medical. I let my medical lapse but can if I choose to fly a GA aircraft
again I can get a medical and use all my private pilot privileges again. I
let my medical lapse about 18 months ago and got my biannual check ride in a
C172 shortly after. Before the LSA rules went into effect my instructor
would check to make sure my medical was up to date or at least scheduled. He
did remind me I wasn't legal in anything other than a LSA airplane. Your
right I were to fail a medical I would be all done flying. It's one less
hoop I have to jump through and no chance of a fail.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "russ kinne" <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA
>
> Richard
> Now I'm confused. you write
> " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."
> I didn't think this was legal. Did you just let the medical lapse? I've
> been told if you fail to PASS a medical, you can't fly a thing, but if
> it expires you can still fly ELSA & gliders.
> What's the straight scoop? I sure don't know, but I'd like to.
> Russ Kinne
>
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
When I was getting my Tailwheel endoresment in a PA-12 , there was a guy getting
his SP in a J-3 ( he was doing his X-country at the time )
.
.
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
Building Buttercup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buttercup-STOL/
.
.
.
.
John Hauck wrote:
>
> > " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."
> > I didn't think this was legal. > Russ Kinne
> >
> >
>
> MKIII falls into the SP category, I believe, along with a lot of other
> experimental homebuilts. A J3 is GA, but you can fly it with SP license.
> Correct me if I am thinking wrong.;
>
> john h
> mkIII
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152747#152747
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
Re: Biennial
What do you say to an instructor (very new) that would not give a
biennial because guy doesn't have a medical! Says a 172 isn't a
Sport, and w/o medical that's all guy can fly. Catch 21.9? Let the
games/threads begin.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
BN, find a less ignorant instructor. Last time I knew, any time at
least one guy sitting up front is legal
anyone can fly the plane. My kids used to fly my aeronca, the
younger one did quite well.
If you can afford to charter a bizjet you can crank it around too. -
hence the summer trade in T6 rides.
(frankly I wouldn't be comfortable stressing any of that ancient WWII
machinery, no matter how pretty
the paint job) T-33s and T-34s come to mind.
BB
On 17, Dec 2007, at 5:48 PM, Bob Noyer wrote:
> Re: Biennial
>
> What do you say to an instructor (very new) that would not give a
> biennial because guy doesn't have a medical! Says a 172 isn't a
> Sport, and w/o medical that's all guy can fly. Catch 21.9? Let the
> games/threads begin.
>
>
> regards,
> Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
> http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
>
> do not archive
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
>This Challenger's empty weight is nearly 800 pounds (!!),
Surely this cannot be right. Empty weight of a Challenger is usually less
than 400lbs. Dioes he have a Chevy bigblock for and engine??
Bryan Dever
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Bet you could get all that info and even more over at the Challenger
List.
Challenger wannabie!
Surely this cannot be right. Empty weight of a Challenger is usually
less than 400lbs. Dioes he have a Chevy bigblock for and engine??
Bryan Dever
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Subject: | Re: Experimental vs. ELSA |
BB is correct about the BFR in the sense that if there is only one pilot that is
current and legal in the aircraft being used for the BFR, then that person must
be the official PIC for that flight. Therefore, a Sport Pilot who has never
set foot in anything other than an LSA type aircraft can legally get his/her
BFR in a C-172 if the instructor agrees to be the PIC for that flight. Some CFIs
will and others won't and there is no law that requires any particular CFI
to do that if they don't want to.
Of course this has nothing at all to do with the subject "Experimental vs. ELSA".
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152780#152780
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Subject: | Re: Landing in High Grass |
John,
Yes and No. My first early FS would nose over very easily. No exaggeration, just
fact. And Yes, I learned to deal with it after about two nose-overs and it was
no longer a problem for me, but the tendency to nose-over did not change, just
the pilot's experience. One of the contributing factors was that particular
early FS was very light with only about 35 lb. on the tail in three-point. Another
was that the pilot at that time was weighing in at 235 lb. I'm not quite
so heavy now and my longer FS legs plus heavier tail make a big difference.
As you know, every homebuilt airplane is unique, sometimes in subtle ways, other
times in major ways.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152781#152781
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
John,
You sure are wound tight aren't you. It seems as though every group has at
least one.
It is my opinion that comparing other designs to our beloved Kolbs is
certainly relevant on this list. If it offends you, hit delete. You knew
what this thread was about simply by the subject line. You did not have to
read it if bothers you so.
Bryan Dever
do not archive
On Dec 17, 2007 6:30 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> Bet you could get all that info and even more over at the Challenger
> List.
>
> Challenger wannabie!
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Landing in High Grass |
I was a little rattled/embarrassed on my first too, even tho nobody for
miles around. That didn't last a minute tho when I realized it was
corrected by sticking my foot out the left side and pushing on the dirt
....settle, clunk, back on the tail. Now I have side lexan farings on
the cockpit so have to be more careful. ;)
-Ben
Thom Riddle wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Yes and No. My first early FS would nose over very easily. No exaggeration, just
fact. And Yes, I learned to deal with it after about two nose-overs and it
was no longer a problem for me, but the tendency to nose-over did not change,
just the pilot's experience. One of the contributing factors was that particular
early FS was very light with only about 35 lb. on the tail in three-point.
Another was that the pilot at that time was weighing in at 235 lb. I'm not quite
so heavy now and my longer FS legs plus heavier tail make a big difference.
As you know, every homebuilt airplane is unique, sometimes in subtle ways, other
times in major ways.
>
> --------
> Thom in Buffalo
> N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
> N197BG FS1/447
> --------------------
> Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if
I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
> - Buddha
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152781#152781
>
>
>
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Hi Bryan:
Wound tight!!! Naw. Not me.
I have a feeling you took my signature block the wrong way, as me
calling you a Challenger Wannabie. Not at all. I was down in Wetumpka
at my gal friend's eating pork chops tonight. Was reading my mail and
saw my post to the Kolb List. Figured somebody was gonna take the sig
block the wrong way.
Sorry about that.
Should have redone it, more like:
signed:
Challenger Wannabie or Anonymous Challenger Wannabie
BTW: I don't think there is much to compare between a Kolb and a
Challenger. Guess that is why a Challenger never appealed to me.
And.........if I wanted to know more about Challengers, I think I would
go over to the Challenger List to find out.
All this Challenger info in the recent past, and I have not learned
anything about a Challenger that I wanted.
john h
mkIII
You sure are wound tight aren't you. It seems as though every group
has at least one.
Bryan Dever
Challenger wannabie!
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
In a message dated 12/17/2007 7:34:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
indyaviator@gmail.com writes:
John,
You sure are wound tight aren't you. It seems as though every group has at
least one.
Bryan, At least One of What?
Steve B
Firefly 007/Floats
do not archive
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 20
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Subject: | Kolb Photos for the Winter |
Hi All,
Just reworked my website with photos from the past.
I will be changing the content several times during this winter so we have some
Kolb photos to look at that cover a similar trip done in different years.
This first update covers photos on trips that included a stop at Monument Valley.
This can also be your reminder that it happens again in only five months.
Merry Christmas to all and have a Happy New Year.
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot/
do not archive
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152812#152812
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Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger |
Then you might enjoy this - years ago, before I bought the MKIII, took
the long-suffering wife with me and went to a Challenger dealer in NW
North Carolina to take a look at a Challenger. Had never really looked
at one before, knew they had been around for a while, so why not?
Weather was too cruddy to fly, so we looked at several that were in
various hangars at his grass strip, and he offered us to have us climb
into the 2 seater. I was able to get in the front w/o too much trouble,
but the back seat - wow. You have to climb over and between the lift
struts, slide one leg alongside the far side of the front seat while
swinging the other leg over the side and alongside the front seat. A
good test of agility, but then came getting out. Not too bad, but
required typical male upper body strength.
Which meant Sweet Thing was in deep trouble. She valiantly struggled her
way in without drawing blood, and pronounced it reasonably comfortable.
But then it was time to get out. Configured as she for comfort rather
than for speed, and being in her golden years, her struggle to lift her
weight up, get her legs out from beside the front seat, and get her
heinie over the side of that fuselage was a struggle worthy of a
contestant on Ninja Warrior. It crossed my mind that all I would need to
do would be to get her to go with me to several fly-ins a year, have her
climb in and out while I sold tickets, and I could pay it off in six
months...
Decided I really wanted a good airplane more than spousal abuse and
bought a MKIII.
Don't know if you wanted to know that about a Challenger or not, but as
Beauford says, it's worth what ye paid fer it.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
John Hauck wrote:
> <snip>
> All this Challenger info in the recent past, and I have not learned
> anything about a Challenger that I wanted.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
> *
> *
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