---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/17/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:44 AM - Re: Landing in High Grass (Thom Riddle) 2. 08:53 AM - Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (jb92563) 3. 09:16 AM - Re: Landing in High Grass (John Hauck) 4. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 5. 01:12 PM - Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 6. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (russ kinne) 7. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (John Hauck) 8. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 9. 02:26 PM - Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (planecrazzzy) 10. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Bob Noyer) 11. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (robert bean) 12. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Bryan Dever) 13. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (John Hauck) 14. 03:52 PM - Re: Experimental vs. ELSA (Thom Riddle) 15. 04:07 PM - Re: Landing in High Grass (Thom Riddle) 16. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Bryan Dever) 17. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: Landing in High Grass (Ben Ransom) 18. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (John Hauck) 19. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (N27SB@aol.com) 20. 07:19 PM - Kolb Photos for the Winter (John Williamson) 21. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:11 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing in High Grass ....I'll bet no Kolbs will nose over at full power run ups, plenty of elevator authority with all that prop blast.. Denny, I'm guessing you've never flown an early Firestar with 377. It would nose over with the least bit of encouragement.Even on smooth pavement, take-off required gradual throttle advancing to prevent nose-over. My current early FS has longer than standard main gear legs and 447 and suffers no such problem. Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:38 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA From: "jb92563" Another option if you believe you might not pass a class 3 medical, but want to still fly E-AB is to register your unregistered aircraft as a E-AB glider "type". As long as it is not being "type" approved you can call anything you built a glider. You will however require a private glider license with self launch endorsement to fly it and would limit the resale value due to it requiring a private glider lic but Private Glider has a "Self declared" medical so you do not even need a drivers license. Once it is registered AND COA'd you can not change it to another type. Certainly a niche but perhaps might suit some pilots needs in odd situations. -------- Ray Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152691#152691 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:12 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing in High Grass Thom: A couple comments to wake the List up. Sounds to me like you are either exagerating or need to improve your piloting technique. Not hard for a low time, ham fisted pilot to put one on its nose. For that matter, I have put my old FS, factory MKIII and FF on their noses, when flying with a fat passenger and/or had momentary brain lock. MKIII and FF nose overs always seem to occur in front of a crowd, especially at Sun and Fun. However, I don't believe the Kolbs are nearly as prone to nose over as you describe. Maybe initially, but with a little time the pilot soon learns to compensate and think ahead of the airplane. "Even on smooth pavement, take-off required gradual throttle advancing to prevent nose-over." With the stick back, the elevator has plenty of authority to keep from nosing over. In my case during a lapse of pilot technique, I stuck the tail in the wind, forgot to get the stick forward, then let a little power, forward weight, and tail wind wake me up. john h mkIII "I'm guessing you've never flown an early Firestar with 377. It would nose over with the least bit of encouragement.Even on smooth pavement, take-off required gradual throttle advancing to prevent nose-over. My current early FS has longer than standard main gear legs and 447 and suffers no such problem. Thom in Buffalo" ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:45 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA Ray I'm don't understand why you would want to do this. The E-AB is a aircraft registration that includes most categories including the LSA category which doesn't require a medical. I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical. Also the other day someone talked about 16 hour course that allows you to maintain your ELSA aircraft. The key word is "your" airplane. I think there is a longer course that allows you to work on other peoples ELSA & LSA with less than a A&E certification? Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "jb92563" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA > > Another option if you believe you might not pass a class 3 medical, but > want to still fly E-AB is to register your unregistered aircraft as a E-AB > glider "type". > > As long as it is not being "type" approved you can call anything you built > a glider. > > You will however require a private glider license with self launch > endorsement to fly it and would limit the resale value due to it requiring > a private glider lic but Private Glider has a "Self declared" medical so > you do not even need a drivers license. > > Once it is registered AND COA'd you can not change it to another type. > > Certainly a niche but perhaps might suit some pilots needs in odd > situations. > > -------- > Ray > Riverside County, CA > > Do Not Archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152691#152691 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:26 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" Not trying to beat this dead horse any more than necessary (and with no offense to our fellow former-Challenger-owning Kolbers), but here's what I've seen, from my limited experience with Challengers: My flying buddy at my home airport owns a Challenger II (long wing) with a 503. You've heard me mention this guy - when we go flying together, I always let him depart first, because he has a dismal climb rate compared to my 912 Mark-III. I catch up to him in short order. But after we form up and are in cruise, he can easily outrun my draggy Kolb. This Challenger's empty weight is nearly 800 pounds (!!), so he has VERY little excess power - especially at our field elevation of 6500 feet MSL. This, coupled with the fact that Challengers are known for their lack of rudder authority, was the setup for disaster this past September. He took off on a warm, thermally afternoon to practice some touch and go's. Lots of dust devils in the area. On his third circuit, after takeoff, he was about 100 feet high and climbing (barely) when his Challenger experienced an un-commanded yaw to the right. Instinctively, he put in left rudder, but with no effect. Even with full left rudder (and still at full power), the plane's nose was still swinging to the right. Meanwhile, with airflow no longer blowing over his wings from directly head on, he began losing lift and was losing altitude quickly while in a flat attitude. He ended up pancaking it into the ground while still at full power. Destroyed the aircraft. My friend was lucky to escape this incident with only bangs & bruises and a sprained ankle. The most likely cause of this accident was that he encountered a horizontal wind shear (like a large dust devil, but without the dust) due to the unstable air near the surface that day. This Challenger did not have sufficient rudder authority to overcome the horizontal wind gradient, nor did it have sufficient power to penetrate or outclimb it. While this set of weather conditions could happen to any of us, I like to think that a Kolb would likely fare better if thrown in the same situation. I have the confidence that, with our better climb rates (if not overloaded), and better directional stability, our Kolbs could more easily overcome this kind of horizontal shear gradient. Happy I chose a Kolb - Dennis Kirby Mark-III, 912, N93DK in Cedar Crest, NM Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:51 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA Richard Now I'm confused. you write " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical." I didn't think this was legal. Did you just let the medical lapse? I've been told if you fail to PASS a medical, you can't fly a thing, but if it expires you can still fly ELSA & gliders. What's the straight scoop? I sure don't know, but I'd like to. Russ Kinne ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:45 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA > " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical." > I didn't think this was legal. > Russ Kinne MKIII falls into the SP category, I believe, along with a lot of other experimental homebuilts. A J3 is GA, but you can fly it with SP license. Correct me if I am thinking wrong.; john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:20 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA That's right I legally fly a E-AB that falls in the LSA category without a medical. I let my medical lapse but can if I choose to fly a GA aircraft again I can get a medical and use all my private pilot privileges again. I let my medical lapse about 18 months ago and got my biannual check ride in a C172 shortly after. Before the LSA rules went into effect my instructor would check to make sure my medical was up to date or at least scheduled. He did remind me I wasn't legal in anything other than a LSA airplane. Your right I were to fail a medical I would be all done flying. It's one less hoop I have to jump through and no chance of a fail. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "russ kinne" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA > > Richard > Now I'm confused. you write > " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical." > I didn't think this was legal. Did you just let the medical lapse? I've > been told if you fail to PASS a medical, you can't fly a thing, but if > it expires you can still fly ELSA & gliders. > What's the straight scoop? I sure don't know, but I'd like to. > Russ Kinne > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:05 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA From: "planecrazzzy" When I was getting my Tailwheel endoresment in a PA-12 , there was a guy getting his SP in a J-3 ( he was doing his X-country at the time ) .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN Building Buttercup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buttercup-STOL/ .. .. .. .. John Hauck wrote: > > > " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical." > > I didn't think this was legal. > Russ Kinne > > > > > > MKIII falls into the SP category, I believe, along with a lot of other > experimental homebuilts. A J3 is GA, but you can fly it with SP license. > Correct me if I am thinking wrong.; > > john h > mkIII -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152747#152747 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:29 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA Re: Biennial What do you say to an instructor (very new) that would not give a biennial because guy doesn't have a medical! Says a 172 isn't a Sport, and w/o medical that's all guy can fly. Catch 21.9? Let the games/threads begin. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:25 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA BN, find a less ignorant instructor. Last time I knew, any time at least one guy sitting up front is legal anyone can fly the plane. My kids used to fly my aeronca, the younger one did quite well. If you can afford to charter a bizjet you can crank it around too. - hence the summer trade in T6 rides. (frankly I wouldn't be comfortable stressing any of that ancient WWII machinery, no matter how pretty the paint job) T-33s and T-34s come to mind. BB On 17, Dec 2007, at 5:48 PM, Bob Noyer wrote: > Re: Biennial > > What do you say to an instructor (very new) that would not give a > biennial because guy doesn't have a medical! Says a 172 isn't a > Sport, and w/o medical that's all guy can fly. Catch 21.9? Let the > games/threads begin. > > > regards, > Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb > http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:06 PM PST US From: "Bryan Dever" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger >This Challenger's empty weight is nearly 800 pounds (!!), Surely this cannot be right. Empty weight of a Challenger is usually less than 400lbs. Dioes he have a Chevy bigblock for and engine?? Bryan Dever ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:39 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger Bet you could get all that info and even more over at the Challenger List. Challenger wannabie! Surely this cannot be right. Empty weight of a Challenger is usually less than 400lbs. Dioes he have a Chevy bigblock for and engine?? Bryan Dever ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:37 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA From: "Thom Riddle" BB is correct about the BFR in the sense that if there is only one pilot that is current and legal in the aircraft being used for the BFR, then that person must be the official PIC for that flight. Therefore, a Sport Pilot who has never set foot in anything other than an LSA type aircraft can legally get his/her BFR in a C-172 if the instructor agrees to be the PIC for that flight. Some CFIs will and others won't and there is no law that requires any particular CFI to do that if they don't want to. Of course this has nothing at all to do with the subject "Experimental vs. ELSA". -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152780#152780 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Landing in High Grass From: "Thom Riddle" John, Yes and No. My first early FS would nose over very easily. No exaggeration, just fact. And Yes, I learned to deal with it after about two nose-overs and it was no longer a problem for me, but the tendency to nose-over did not change, just the pilot's experience. One of the contributing factors was that particular early FS was very light with only about 35 lb. on the tail in three-point. Another was that the pilot at that time was weighing in at 235 lb. I'm not quite so heavy now and my longer FS legs plus heavier tail make a big difference. As you know, every homebuilt airplane is unique, sometimes in subtle ways, other times in major ways. -------- Thom in Buffalo N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152781#152781 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:55 PM PST US From: "Bryan Dever" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger John, You sure are wound tight aren't you. It seems as though every group has at least one. It is my opinion that comparing other designs to our beloved Kolbs is certainly relevant on this list. If it offends you, hit delete. You knew what this thread was about simply by the subject line. You did not have to read it if bothers you so. Bryan Dever do not archive On Dec 17, 2007 6:30 PM, John Hauck wrote: > Bet you could get all that info and even more over at the Challenger > List. > > Challenger wannabie! > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:53 PM PST US From: Ben Ransom Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Landing in High Grass I was a little rattled/embarrassed on my first too, even tho nobody for miles around. That didn't last a minute tho when I realized it was corrected by sticking my foot out the left side and pushing on the dirt ....settle, clunk, back on the tail. Now I have side lexan farings on the cockpit so have to be more careful. ;) -Ben Thom Riddle wrote: > > John, > > Yes and No. My first early FS would nose over very easily. No exaggeration, just fact. And Yes, I learned to deal with it after about two nose-overs and it was no longer a problem for me, but the tendency to nose-over did not change, just the pilot's experience. One of the contributing factors was that particular early FS was very light with only about 35 lb. on the tail in three-point. Another was that the pilot at that time was weighing in at 235 lb. I'm not quite so heavy now and my longer FS legs plus heavier tail make a big difference. As you know, every homebuilt airplane is unique, sometimes in subtle ways, other times in major ways. > > -------- > Thom in Buffalo > N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL > N197BG FS1/447 > -------------------- > Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. > - Buddha > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152781#152781 > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:57 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger Hi Bryan: Wound tight!!! Naw. Not me. I have a feeling you took my signature block the wrong way, as me calling you a Challenger Wannabie. Not at all. I was down in Wetumpka at my gal friend's eating pork chops tonight. Was reading my mail and saw my post to the Kolb List. Figured somebody was gonna take the sig block the wrong way. Sorry about that. Should have redone it, more like: signed: Challenger Wannabie or Anonymous Challenger Wannabie BTW: I don't think there is much to compare between a Kolb and a Challenger. Guess that is why a Challenger never appealed to me. And.........if I wanted to know more about Challengers, I think I would go over to the Challenger List to find out. All this Challenger info in the recent past, and I have not learned anything about a Challenger that I wanted. john h mkIII You sure are wound tight aren't you. It seems as though every group has at least one. Bryan Dever Challenger wannabie! ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:30 PM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger In a message dated 12/17/2007 7:34:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, indyaviator@gmail.com writes: John, You sure are wound tight aren't you. It seems as though every group has at least one. Bryan, At least One of What? Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Photos for the Winter From: "John Williamson" Hi All, Just reworked my website with photos from the past. I will be changing the content several times during this winter so we have some Kolb photos to look at that cover a similar trip done in different years. This first update covers photos on trips that included a stop at Monument Valley. This can also be your reminder that it happens again in only five months. Merry Christmas to all and have a Happy New Year. http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot/ do not archive -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152812#152812 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:48 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger Then you might enjoy this - years ago, before I bought the MKIII, took the long-suffering wife with me and went to a Challenger dealer in NW North Carolina to take a look at a Challenger. Had never really looked at one before, knew they had been around for a while, so why not? Weather was too cruddy to fly, so we looked at several that were in various hangars at his grass strip, and he offered us to have us climb into the 2 seater. I was able to get in the front w/o too much trouble, but the back seat - wow. You have to climb over and between the lift struts, slide one leg alongside the far side of the front seat while swinging the other leg over the side and alongside the front seat. A good test of agility, but then came getting out. Not too bad, but required typical male upper body strength. Which meant Sweet Thing was in deep trouble. She valiantly struggled her way in without drawing blood, and pronounced it reasonably comfortable. But then it was time to get out. Configured as she for comfort rather than for speed, and being in her golden years, her struggle to lift her weight up, get her legs out from beside the front seat, and get her heinie over the side of that fuselage was a struggle worthy of a contestant on Ninja Warrior. It crossed my mind that all I would need to do would be to get her to go with me to several fly-ins a year, have her climb in and out while I sold tickets, and I could pay it off in six months... Decided I really wanted a good airplane more than spousal abuse and bought a MKIII. Don't know if you wanted to know that about a Challenger or not, but as Beauford says, it's worth what ye paid fer it. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) John Hauck wrote: > > All this Challenger info in the recent past, and I have not learned > anything about a Challenger that I wanted. > > john h > mkIII > > * > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.