Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:54 AM - Re: Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact (Denny Rowe)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact (gary aman)
3. 04:53 AM - babble (tc1917)
4. 06:21 AM - Christmas (pj.ladd)
5. 06:41 AM - Re: FF tailwheel weight (Russ Kinne)
6. 06:41 AM - Re: FSII VS Drifter (pj.ladd)
7. 07:02 AM - Re: babble (robert bean)
8. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (John Hauck)
9. 08:46 AM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jim)
10. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (John Hauck)
11. 09:54 AM - Merry Christmas (Richard Pike)
12. 10:34 AM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (JetPilot)
13. 10:44 AM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (JetPilot)
14. 10:50 AM - Christmas greetings (Dana Hague)
15. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (Richard Pike)
16. 12:45 PM - Re: Christmas greetings (Bart Morgan)
17. 01:32 PM - Re: Christmas greetings (Dana Hague)
18. 02:19 PM - Re: Kolb-List Help! How Many Hrs to Fabric a firestar cage ??? (David Key)
19. 03:08 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jim)
20. 04:10 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (JetPilot)
21. 06:17 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (The BaronVonEvil)
22. 07:02 PM - Holiday Greetings (Bob Noyer)
23. 11:47 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jim)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact |
John,
If you are just now building your airplane, powder coating the fuselage and
boom tube is a fine idea.
If your airplane is already assembled than it will not be so easy.
My Mk-3 came from the old Kolb with the powder coated option on the boom
and fuselage and it has held up well.
Denny Rowe, N616DR
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact |
About powder coating;
Did all the metal parts,had some reservations about the temps on
6063 or 6061 boom,but my guy said that they stay under those damaging temps ..almost
10 years ago.Chips pretty easy but still looks OK
John,
If you are just now building your airplane, powder coating the fuselage and
boom tube is a fine idea.
If your airplane is already assembled than it will not be so easy.
My Mk-3 came from the old Kolb with the powder coated option on the boom
and fuselage and it has held up well.
Denny Rowe, N616DR
Message 3
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I have been lurking on the list for about a week now and I have to say that
most of you really have the Christmas Spirit. By that I mean, you all sound
as though you have been a little too close to the egg nog (southern style).
Babble is a good name for it. Anyway, I have a challenger in my hanger that
I fly regularly for the owner and have flown a few others, challengers, mini
max, rans 4, weight shift and stick Eagles, etc, and I have to say the Kolb
planes are the most delightful to fly. They seem to have the most defined
characteristics, the most controllable and dependable. I refer to
Challengers as 1956 Buicks on a Sunday afternoon, Kolbs are MGs for the
spirited. I take most people on rides in the Challenger. I fly one but I
dont want to own one. I enjoy flying my "Greezed Lightnin" Slingshot with a
912. Thats my kind of flying! Ted Cowan, Alabama. If you are interested
in some Kolb parts visit my web site at
http://southernflyers.homestead.com/ Have a Merry Christmas all. do not
archive.
Message 4
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Merry Christmas and a high flying New Year to all from Merrie England
Cheers
Pat
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FF tailwheel weight |
Bob
In re weighing tailwheels -- I'm sure you've heard of the woman who
gave birth at a fishing camp. The infant was weighed on the fish-
weighing scales; weighed 37 lbs!
On Dec 21, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Bob Noyer wrote:
> Dave,
>
> As promised, I weighed my FF's tail wheel. Have a rather std FF,
> brakes, larger tires, not much else for weight, about 3 gal fuel.
> Tailwheel on electronic scale=56# When I came home, the dang scale
> had 'slud' over and fell on driveway when I opened the door! Now my
> weight has dropped to 146 from 175!!!
>
>
> regards,
> Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
> http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FSII VS Drifter |
FS11 v Drifter? But is the Drifter better than the Challenger?
No, no, not again, Open the cage , play the music!!"!!!
Cheers
Pat
Message 7
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Ted, my cage was worse than that when I got it. (cheap)
I would suggest to anyone who repairs this kind of damage that they
increase
the angle of the leg sockets so they can use the stock aluminum legs
and gain some altitude in stance . I didn't but then I was a Kolb
novice.
You may also have to weld up new axle fittings too unless you like
that new camber.
BB
do not archive
On 24, Dec 2007, at 7:52 AM, tc1917 wrote:
>
> I have been lurking on the list for about a week now and I have to
> say that most of you really have the Christmas Spirit. By that I
> mean, you all sound as though you have been a little too close to
> the egg nog (southern style). Babble is a good name for it.
> Anyway, I have a challenger in my hanger that I fly regularly for
> the owner and have flown a few others, challengers, mini max, rans
> 4, weight shift and stick Eagles, etc, and I have to say the Kolb
> planes are the most delightful to fly. They seem to have the most
> defined characteristics, the most controllable and dependable. I
> refer to Challengers as 1956 Buicks on a Sunday afternoon, Kolbs
> are MGs for the spirited. I take most people on rides in the
> Challenger. I fly one but I dont want to own one. I enjoy flying
> my "Greezed Lightnin" Slingshot with a 912. Thats my kind of
> flying! Ted Cowan, Alabama. If you are interested in some Kolb
> parts visit my web site at
> http://southernflyers.homestead.com/ Have a Merry Christmas
> all. do not archive.
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
> I have a Firefly with a 503. I haven't flown one with a 447, but my
airplane always wants to pitch up and fly left (left wing very heavy). This
is because of the extra weight and torque of the 503. The trim tab on the
left aileron is already full up.
> Jim
Jim:
Don't think the 503 is causing your out of trim problem. If anything, the
increased thrust of the 503 would cause a nose down pitch.
Probably have too much incidence right wing, or not enough in the left wing.
Ailerons can be dropped a tad to correct the nose up pitch trim.
Call Kolb and get a new adjustable universal for the drag strut attachment.
Then you can adjust incidence to correct your roll problem.
john h
mkIII
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
John Hauck wrote:
> > Probably have too much incidence right wing, or not enough in the left wing.
>
> Ailerons can be dropped a tad to correct the nose up pitch trim.
>
> Call Kolb and get a new adjustable universal for the drag strut attachment.
> Then you can adjust incidence to correct your roll problem.
>
> john h
> mkIII
Thanks for the tip on the adjustable universal. Would I get one for one side,
or two for both sides? If one, does it matter what side I put it on?
As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely.
But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed.
If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off. But that is just above stall speed.
I would rather cruise at 50 or 55.
--------
Jim
N. Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154019#154019
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
> As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is
trimmed nicely. But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are
no longer reflexed.
>
> If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off. But that is just above
> stall speed. I would rather cruise at 50 or 55.
>
> --------
> Jim
Jim:
Only require one universal. Doesn't matter which side you use it on, but if
it were mine, I'd check the side with the least incidence and put the
universal on the opposite side to match it up. Homer designed a lot of
incidence in the wings to get the airplane on and off the ground in a rather
level pitch attitude. This also makes the tail fly higher, increasing drag
by dragging the tail boom through the air at an angle, rather than straight
and level. Wish I would go to the trouble to reduce incidence in my mkIII,
but with the windshield and other stuff, would be more trouble than it would
be worth.
Maybe you can adjust a little of the reflex out to bring the pitch trim back
into line without losing a lot of cruise. I would think so.
john h
mkIII
Message 11
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To all my friends on the list: (non-Kolb msg follows)
Merry Christmas and may the peace of the Savior -
Jesus Christ - be yours for the coming new year.
And while it would be nice to give a gift to all of you,
I can only give a gift to those who (like me) have bad knees or sore
joints.
Was looking into knee replacement surgery when I discovered this stuff:
http://www.tpgold.com/
Relief was about 95%, no side effects, pretty good I'd say.
(And no, I'm not selling it)
Merry Christmas
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
[quote="jim"]
John Hauck wrote:
>
> As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely.
But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed.
>
> If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off. But that is just above stall
speed. I would rather cruise at 50 or 55.
Jim,
Given some of the things you have posted, I can tell that you have your plane set
up very badly. John H was right about the 503 not causing your trim problems,
that is just not going to happen. If think about it for a minute, how
much torque difference is there between the 503 and the 447, maybe 15 % , and
there is NO torque difference when you are in normal cruise flight. Using the
English style U-Joint on the wing will fix your turning problem very well.
As far as the pitch trim problem, trying to correct it by adjusting the ailerons
is definitely the wrong way to do it. From what you posted, you are trying
to use your ailerons like elevons, by reflexing them up and pushing the tail
down. The problem is, the Kolb is not a flying wing, and trying to rig it as
such is very inefficient and causes very poor performance.
I'm going to use general round numbers here to make it easy to understand the concept,
they will defiantly not be accurate for the firefly. Lets say you need
10 pounds more down force to be produced by the elevator to maintain level flight
at cruise with zero stick pressure, you can get that by several means.
First is constantly pulling on the stick, but wears your arm out after a while.
Second you can put a trim tab on the elevator which will hold it for you,
works very well... Or you can even adjust the front atach point of the horizonatl
stab, also works very well, but its hard to do, and even harder to fine tune.
Each of these methods would produce the extra 10 pounds of downforce needed
for level flight.
The worst way you could put an extra 10 pounds downforce on the tail is by reflexing
the ailerons. Lets say your tail is 12 feet back from the center of lift
of the wing, and your ailerons are 3 feet behind the center of lift. To produce
the same tail down force, you will need to generate 4 times the down force
with the ailerons then with the tail due to the shorter lever arm moment,
so you are generating 40 pounds of downforce at the ailerons instead of the 10
pounds at the much more efficient level arm moment of the tail. So you have
created a lot more drag generating 30 pounds of additinal down force instead of
the 10 needed at the tail. To make matters worse, the wings have to create
additional lift make up for this huge amount of downforce being generated by the
ailerons. You have put 40 pounds extra load on the wings instead of the
10 that should have been put on from the tail, so in effect made your plane 30
pounds heavier without adding any additional weight.
To top things off, reflexed ailerons are called SPOILERONS, and they do exactly
what their name says, they act to kill the lift from the wing. That explains
your very high stall speed, poor climb, and general bad performance of your
firefly even with a larger engine. Fixing these probelms the correct way is not
difficult, and you will love they way your new airplane flys.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154048#154048
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
Jim,
I just re-read what you posted, and it seems you have a pitch up problem instead
of pitch down. The same thing still holds true, fix it at the tail, not on
the wings. A trim tab to pitch down is by far the best way to make the plane
fly level. Adjust the ailerons where they are most efficient, and don't raise
your stall speed so much.
If you look at properly rigged, certified airplanes, there is not a one on the
planet that cruises around with reflexed ailerons, that is a very bad thing.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154053#154053
Message 14
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| Subject: | Christmas greetings |
To All My Democrat Friends:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best
wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-
stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter
solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of
the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of
your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion
and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice
religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally
successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated
recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year
2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of
other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make
America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than
any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere.
Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color,
age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the
wishee.
To My Republican Friends:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
-Dana
--
The most valuable function performed by the federal government is
entertainment.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
I disagree with your analysis and conclusions.
Reflexing the ailerons changes the shape of the airfoil and moves the
center of pressure of the airfoil forward. Results are the same as
making the airplane more tail heavy. Conversely, lowering the ailerons
(or the flaps) moves the center of pressure of the airfoil aft, making
the airplane effectively more nose heavy. That is what changes the
elevator trim pressure, rather than the ailerons pushing the tail up or
down as if they were elevators. Obviously there are definite limits to
how much the ailerons (or flaps) ought to be reflexed, as the point of
diminishing returns happens very quickly, it doesn't take much reflex to
make the airfoil inefficient.
I have played with this on my MKIII, as the flap handle mod allows the
flaps to be adjusted up or down in 1/2" increments around the normal up
position. Testing is easy, establish cruise speed at a given power
setting and then ease the flaps up or down a 1/2" either way and see
what happens to the speed vs. the stick pressure. Speed and rpm stay
virtually constant, only the stick pressure changes.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
JetPilot wrote:
>
> As far as the pitch trim problem, trying to correct it by adjusting the ailerons
is definitely the wrong way to do it. From what you posted, you are trying
to use your ailerons like elevons, by reflexing them up and pushing the tail
down. The problem is, the Kolb is not a flying wing, and trying to rig it as
such is very inefficient and causes very poor performance.
>
> I'm going to use general round numbers here to make it easy to understand the
concept, they will defiantly not be accurate for the firefly. Lets say you need
10 pounds more down force to be produced by the elevator to maintain level
flight at cruise with zero stick pressure, you can get that by several means.
First is constantly pulling on the stick, but wears your arm out after a while.
Second you can put a trim tab on the elevator which will hold it for you,
works very well... Or you can even adjust the front atach point of the horizonatl
stab, also works very well, but its hard to do, and even harder to fine
tune. Each of these methods would produce the extra 10 pounds of downforce needed
for level flight.
>
> The worst way you could put an extra 10 pounds downforce on the tail is by reflexing
the ailerons. Lets say your tail is 12 feet back from the center of
lift of the wing, and your ailerons are 3 feet behind the center of lift. To
produce the same tail down force, you will need to generate 4 times the down
force with the ailerons then with the tail due to the shorter lever arm moment,
so you are generating 40 pounds of downforce at the ailerons instead of the
10 pounds at the much more efficient level arm moment of the tail. So you have
created a lot more drag generating 30 pounds of additinal down force instead
of the 10 needed at the tail. To make matters worse, the wings have to create
additional lift make up for this huge amount of downforce being generated by
the ailerons. You have put 40 pounds extra load on the wings instead of the
10 that should have been put on from the tail, so in effect made your plane
30 pounds heavier without adding any additional weight!
> .
>
> To top things off, reflexed ailerons are called SPOILERONS, and they do exactly
what their name says, they act to kill the lift from the wing. That explains
your very high stall speed, poor climb, and general bad performance of your
firefly even with a larger engine. Fixing these probelms the correct way is
not difficult, and you will love they way your new airplane flys.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154048#154048
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Christmas greetings |
Dana,
I thought this to be a forum for building and flying Kolb aircraft not a right
wing evangelical republican propaganda site.
John
Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net> wrote:
To All My Democrat Friends:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best
wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-
stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter
solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of
the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of
your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion
and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice
religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally
successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated
recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year
2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of
other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make
America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than
any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere.
Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color,
age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the
wishee.
To My Republican Friends:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
-Dana
--
The most valuable function performed by the federal government is
entertainment.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Christmas greetings |
At 03:44 PM 12/24/2007, Bart Morgan wrote:
>Dana,
>I thought this to be a forum for building and flying Kolb aircraft not a
>right wing evangelical republican propaganda site.
Gee, I'm not right wing, evangelical, or republican... I simply found it
amusing.
Nor am I politically correct.
Merry Christmas (or whatever) anyway.
-Dana
do not archive.
--
Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country is doing
to you.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Kolb-List Help! How Many Hrs to Fabric a firestar cage |
???
Years ago when I was selling firewood there was a pretty good a run on the
wood due to a very cold winter. I was concerned about the supplier running
out of wood so I needed to locate more wood and heard there was some in Ato
ka Oklahoma. So while I was picking up 6 cords from my supplier I decided t
o ask one of the guys loading the truck how far Atoka Oklahoma was he said
15 minutes further down the road. I thought that seems wrong so I ask a dif
ferent guy and he said I had about an hour and a half down the road. Puzzle
d by the difference I ask another and he said 25 minutes. Frustrated I anno
unced my findings to the group of guys. One guy piped up and said, =93Aroun
d here we don't pay much attention to time or distance we figure if you got
s to go you gots to go=94.
That's a lot like covering a Kolb.
to Fabric a firestar cage ???Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:44:03 -0500From: bm
wbikecrz@aol.comAny one know long to Do the fabric on a Firestar KX Stoppi
ng at the top of the fuel Tank
Thanks ! Dave
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
Is the Universal designed to either increase or decrease incidence over the standard,
or will it only decrease angle of incidence? I am wondering if I should
increase the angle of incidence on the port (left) side. It would seem that
might also increase the nose down pitch slightly.
Last winter I replaced the boom tube on my Firefly to correct damage caused by
the previous owner. At that time I did elect to move the forward attach point
on the horiz stab up about 3/4 inch. This did reduce the down elevator required
to hold straight and level, but not as much as I would like.
It is my understanding that the Firefly is designed to have reflex flaps. When
the flaperons are up a few degrees from the neutral position in cruise, speed
at a given power setting is increased. The Maule (with the fat Clark Y airfoil)
uses this technique to increase cruise speed 5mph.
I will definitely get a swivel for my Firefly.
Thanks and Merry Christmas to all.
Jim
--------
Jim
N. Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154099#154099
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
Good catch on the Maule, I looked into that today and they do reflex thier flaps
slightly (only a few degrees) to increase cruise, but not to adjust flight trim.
But the maules are cruising at 140 MPH, there is a speed below which they
say the reflex does not help, and definately for takeoff and landing. I dont
know if the firefly will ever get fast enough to need reflex flaps, anyways
Kolb says to adjust the flaps on the MK III to flat with the bottom of the wing,
and that is where it works best for my MK III Xtra. I did experiment with
reflexing flaps and ailerons quite a bit on my plane, but it just increased the
stall speed, and did not fly as nice. As Richard says, its easy to play with
and see what results you like.
The adjustable wing brackets adjust both ways on the MK III, up or down. Decreasing
the wing incidence will make your plane pitch down more.
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
Hi Jim,
It just so happens I happen to have an extra English U joint if you want it.
I bought two for my Firestar II after I powder coated my cage and found out the
wing incidence had changed. Turns out I only need one U joint to trim out the
plane.
I powder coated them black because thats the color the powder coating guy was running
at the time. You can lightly sand the coating and paint to match your airframe.
Let me know what you would like to do.
Best Regards
Carlos Grageda
grageda@innw.net
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Holiday Greetings |
I would like to extend my greetings for a Merry Christmas/holiday of
choice to all of The Kolb Family. And further, Good Health, Safe
Flying, and whatever makes you happy.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: How do you like your FireFly? |
Baron -- Thanks. I've sent an email off-list.
--------
Jim
N. Idaho
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