---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/24/07: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:54 AM - Re: Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact (Denny Rowe) 2. 04:46 AM - Re: Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact (gary aman) 3. 04:53 AM - babble (tc1917) 4. 06:21 AM - Christmas (pj.ladd) 5. 06:41 AM - Re: FF tailwheel weight (Russ Kinne) 6. 06:41 AM - Re: FSII VS Drifter (pj.ladd) 7. 07:02 AM - Re: babble (robert bean) 8. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (John Hauck) 9. 08:46 AM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jim) 10. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (John Hauck) 11. 09:54 AM - Merry Christmas (Richard Pike) 12. 10:34 AM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (JetPilot) 13. 10:44 AM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (JetPilot) 14. 10:50 AM - Christmas greetings (Dana Hague) 15. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (Richard Pike) 16. 12:45 PM - Re: Christmas greetings (Bart Morgan) 17. 01:32 PM - Re: Christmas greetings (Dana Hague) 18. 02:19 PM - Re: Kolb-List Help! How Many Hrs to Fabric a firestar cage ??? (David Key) 19. 03:08 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jim) 20. 04:10 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (JetPilot) 21. 06:17 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (The BaronVonEvil) 22. 07:02 PM - Holiday Greetings (Bob Noyer) 23. 11:47 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jim) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:34 AM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact John, If you are just now building your airplane, powder coating the fuselage and boom tube is a fine idea. If your airplane is already assembled than it will not be so easy. My Mk-3 came from the old Kolb with the powder coated option on the boom and fuselage and it has held up well. Denny Rowe, N616DR ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:47 AM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Powder Coatings - after the fact About powder coating; Did all the metal parts,had some reservations about the temps on 6063 or 6061 boom,but my guy said that they stay under those damaging temps ..almost 10 years ago.Chips pretty easy but still looks OK John, If you are just now building your airplane, powder coating the fuselage and boom tube is a fine idea. If your airplane is already assembled than it will not be so easy. My Mk-3 came from the old Kolb with the powder coated option on the boom and fuselage and it has held up well. Denny Rowe, N616DR ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:15 AM PST US From: "tc1917" Subject: Kolb-List: babble I have been lurking on the list for about a week now and I have to say that most of you really have the Christmas Spirit. By that I mean, you all sound as though you have been a little too close to the egg nog (southern style). Babble is a good name for it. Anyway, I have a challenger in my hanger that I fly regularly for the owner and have flown a few others, challengers, mini max, rans 4, weight shift and stick Eagles, etc, and I have to say the Kolb planes are the most delightful to fly. They seem to have the most defined characteristics, the most controllable and dependable. I refer to Challengers as 1956 Buicks on a Sunday afternoon, Kolbs are MGs for the spirited. I take most people on rides in the Challenger. I fly one but I dont want to own one. I enjoy flying my "Greezed Lightnin" Slingshot with a 912. Thats my kind of flying! Ted Cowan, Alabama. If you are interested in some Kolb parts visit my web site at http://southernflyers.homestead.com/ Have a Merry Christmas all. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:37 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Kolb-List: Christmas Merry Christmas and a high flying New Year to all from Merrie England Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:04 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FF tailwheel weight Bob In re weighing tailwheels -- I'm sure you've heard of the woman who gave birth at a fishing camp. The infant was weighed on the fish- weighing scales; weighed 37 lbs! On Dec 21, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Bob Noyer wrote: > Dave, > > As promised, I weighed my FF's tail wheel. Have a rather std FF, > brakes, larger tires, not much else for weight, about 3 gal fuel. > Tailwheel on electronic scale=56# When I came home, the dang scale > had 'slud' over and fell on driveway when I opened the door! Now my > weight has dropped to 146 from 175!!! > > > regards, > Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb > http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:39 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII VS Drifter FS11 v Drifter? But is the Drifter better than the Challenger? No, no, not again, Open the cage , play the music!!"!!! Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:17 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: babble Ted, my cage was worse than that when I got it. (cheap) I would suggest to anyone who repairs this kind of damage that they increase the angle of the leg sockets so they can use the stock aluminum legs and gain some altitude in stance . I didn't but then I was a Kolb novice. You may also have to weld up new axle fittings too unless you like that new camber. BB do not archive On 24, Dec 2007, at 7:52 AM, tc1917 wrote: > > I have been lurking on the list for about a week now and I have to > say that most of you really have the Christmas Spirit. By that I > mean, you all sound as though you have been a little too close to > the egg nog (southern style). Babble is a good name for it. > Anyway, I have a challenger in my hanger that I fly regularly for > the owner and have flown a few others, challengers, mini max, rans > 4, weight shift and stick Eagles, etc, and I have to say the Kolb > planes are the most delightful to fly. They seem to have the most > defined characteristics, the most controllable and dependable. I > refer to Challengers as 1956 Buicks on a Sunday afternoon, Kolbs > are MGs for the spirited. I take most people on rides in the > Challenger. I fly one but I dont want to own one. I enjoy flying > my "Greezed Lightnin" Slingshot with a 912. Thats my kind of > flying! Ted Cowan, Alabama. If you are interested in some Kolb > parts visit my web site at > http://southernflyers.homestead.com/ Have a Merry Christmas > all. do not archive. > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:42 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? > I have a Firefly with a 503. I haven't flown one with a 447, but my airplane always wants to pitch up and fly left (left wing very heavy). This is because of the extra weight and torque of the 503. The trim tab on the left aileron is already full up. > Jim Jim: Don't think the 503 is causing your out of trim problem. If anything, the increased thrust of the 503 would cause a nose down pitch. Probably have too much incidence right wing, or not enough in the left wing. Ailerons can be dropped a tad to correct the nose up pitch trim. Call Kolb and get a new adjustable universal for the drag strut attachment. Then you can adjust incidence to correct your roll problem. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:07 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "jim" John Hauck wrote: > > Probably have too much incidence right wing, or not enough in the left wing. > > Ailerons can be dropped a tad to correct the nose up pitch trim. > > Call Kolb and get a new adjustable universal for the drag strut attachment. > Then you can adjust incidence to correct your roll problem. > > john h > mkIII Thanks for the tip on the adjustable universal. Would I get one for one side, or two for both sides? If one, does it matter what side I put it on? As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely. But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed. If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off. But that is just above stall speed. I would rather cruise at 50 or 55. -------- Jim N. Idaho Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154019#154019 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:27 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? > As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely. But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed. > > If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off. But that is just above > stall speed. I would rather cruise at 50 or 55. > > -------- > Jim Jim: Only require one universal. Doesn't matter which side you use it on, but if it were mine, I'd check the side with the least incidence and put the universal on the opposite side to match it up. Homer designed a lot of incidence in the wings to get the airplane on and off the ground in a rather level pitch attitude. This also makes the tail fly higher, increasing drag by dragging the tail boom through the air at an angle, rather than straight and level. Wish I would go to the trouble to reduce incidence in my mkIII, but with the windshield and other stuff, would be more trouble than it would be worth. Maybe you can adjust a little of the reflex out to bring the pitch trim back into line without losing a lot of cruise. I would think so. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:22 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Merry Christmas To all my friends on the list: (non-Kolb msg follows) Merry Christmas and may the peace of the Savior - Jesus Christ - be yours for the coming new year. And while it would be nice to give a gift to all of you, I can only give a gift to those who (like me) have bad knees or sore joints. Was looking into knee replacement surgery when I discovered this stuff: http://www.tpgold.com/ Relief was about 95%, no side effects, pretty good I'd say. (And no, I'm not selling it) Merry Christmas Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "JetPilot" [quote="jim"] John Hauck wrote: > > As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely. But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed. > > If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off. But that is just above stall speed. I would rather cruise at 50 or 55. Jim, Given some of the things you have posted, I can tell that you have your plane set up very badly. John H was right about the 503 not causing your trim problems, that is just not going to happen. If think about it for a minute, how much torque difference is there between the 503 and the 447, maybe 15 % , and there is NO torque difference when you are in normal cruise flight. Using the English style U-Joint on the wing will fix your turning problem very well. As far as the pitch trim problem, trying to correct it by adjusting the ailerons is definitely the wrong way to do it. From what you posted, you are trying to use your ailerons like elevons, by reflexing them up and pushing the tail down. The problem is, the Kolb is not a flying wing, and trying to rig it as such is very inefficient and causes very poor performance. I'm going to use general round numbers here to make it easy to understand the concept, they will defiantly not be accurate for the firefly. Lets say you need 10 pounds more down force to be produced by the elevator to maintain level flight at cruise with zero stick pressure, you can get that by several means. First is constantly pulling on the stick, but wears your arm out after a while. Second you can put a trim tab on the elevator which will hold it for you, works very well... Or you can even adjust the front atach point of the horizonatl stab, also works very well, but its hard to do, and even harder to fine tune. Each of these methods would produce the extra 10 pounds of downforce needed for level flight. The worst way you could put an extra 10 pounds downforce on the tail is by reflexing the ailerons. Lets say your tail is 12 feet back from the center of lift of the wing, and your ailerons are 3 feet behind the center of lift. To produce the same tail down force, you will need to generate 4 times the down force with the ailerons then with the tail due to the shorter lever arm moment, so you are generating 40 pounds of downforce at the ailerons instead of the 10 pounds at the much more efficient level arm moment of the tail. So you have created a lot more drag generating 30 pounds of additinal down force instead of the 10 needed at the tail. To make matters worse, the wings have to create additional lift make up for this huge amount of downforce being generated by the ailerons. You have put 40 pounds extra load on the wings instead of the 10 that should have been put on from the tail, so in effect made your plane 30 pounds heavier without adding any additional weight. To top things off, reflexed ailerons are called SPOILERONS, and they do exactly what their name says, they act to kill the lift from the wing. That explains your very high stall speed, poor climb, and general bad performance of your firefly even with a larger engine. Fixing these probelms the correct way is not difficult, and you will love they way your new airplane flys. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154048#154048 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "JetPilot" Jim, I just re-read what you posted, and it seems you have a pitch up problem instead of pitch down. The same thing still holds true, fix it at the tail, not on the wings. A trim tab to pitch down is by far the best way to make the plane fly level. Adjust the ailerons where they are most efficient, and don't raise your stall speed so much. If you look at properly rigged, certified airplanes, there is not a one on the planet that cruises around with reflexed ailerons, that is a very bad thing. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154053#154053 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:19 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Kolb-List: Christmas greetings To All My Democrat Friends: Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low- stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee. To My Republican Friends: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! -Dana -- The most valuable function performed by the federal government is entertainment. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:58 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? I disagree with your analysis and conclusions. Reflexing the ailerons changes the shape of the airfoil and moves the center of pressure of the airfoil forward. Results are the same as making the airplane more tail heavy. Conversely, lowering the ailerons (or the flaps) moves the center of pressure of the airfoil aft, making the airplane effectively more nose heavy. That is what changes the elevator trim pressure, rather than the ailerons pushing the tail up or down as if they were elevators. Obviously there are definite limits to how much the ailerons (or flaps) ought to be reflexed, as the point of diminishing returns happens very quickly, it doesn't take much reflex to make the airfoil inefficient. I have played with this on my MKIII, as the flap handle mod allows the flaps to be adjusted up or down in 1/2" increments around the normal up position. Testing is easy, establish cruise speed at a given power setting and then ease the flaps up or down a 1/2" either way and see what happens to the speed vs. the stick pressure. Speed and rpm stay virtually constant, only the stick pressure changes. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) JetPilot wrote: > > As far as the pitch trim problem, trying to correct it by adjusting the ailerons is definitely the wrong way to do it. From what you posted, you are trying to use your ailerons like elevons, by reflexing them up and pushing the tail down. The problem is, the Kolb is not a flying wing, and trying to rig it as such is very inefficient and causes very poor performance. > > I'm going to use general round numbers here to make it easy to understand the concept, they will defiantly not be accurate for the firefly. Lets say you need 10 pounds more down force to be produced by the elevator to maintain level flight at cruise with zero stick pressure, you can get that by several means. First is constantly pulling on the stick, but wears your arm out after a while. Second you can put a trim tab on the elevator which will hold it for you, works very well... Or you can even adjust the front atach point of the horizonatl stab, also works very well, but its hard to do, and even harder to fine tune. Each of these methods would produce the extra 10 pounds of downforce needed for level flight. > > The worst way you could put an extra 10 pounds downforce on the tail is by reflexing the ailerons. Lets say your tail is 12 feet back from the center of lift of the wing, and your ailerons are 3 feet behind the center of lift. To produce the same tail down force, you will need to generate 4 times the down force with the ailerons then with the tail due to the shorter lever arm moment, so you are generating 40 pounds of downforce at the ailerons instead of the 10 pounds at the much more efficient level arm moment of the tail. So you have created a lot more drag generating 30 pounds of additinal down force instead of the 10 needed at the tail. To make matters worse, the wings have to create additional lift make up for this huge amount of downforce being generated by the ailerons. You have put 40 pounds extra load on the wings instead of the 10 that should have been put on from the tail, so in effect made your plane 30 pounds heavier without adding any additional weight! > . > > To top things off, reflexed ailerons are called SPOILERONS, and they do exactly what their name says, they act to kill the lift from the wing. That explains your very high stall speed, poor climb, and general bad performance of your firefly even with a larger engine. Fixing these probelms the correct way is not difficult, and you will love they way your new airplane flys. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154048#154048 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:06 PM PST US From: Bart Morgan Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Christmas greetings Dana, I thought this to be a forum for building and flying Kolb aircraft not a right wing evangelical republican propaganda site. John Dana Hague wrote: To All My Democrat Friends: Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low- stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee. To My Republican Friends: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! -Dana -- The most valuable function performed by the federal government is entertainment. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:10 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Christmas greetings At 03:44 PM 12/24/2007, Bart Morgan wrote: >Dana, >I thought this to be a forum for building and flying Kolb aircraft not a >right wing evangelical republican propaganda site. Gee, I'm not right wing, evangelical, or republican... I simply found it amusing. Nor am I politically correct. Merry Christmas (or whatever) anyway. -Dana do not archive. -- Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country is doing to you. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:24 PM PST US From: David Key Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb-List Help! How Many Hrs to Fabric a firestar cage ??? Years ago when I was selling firewood there was a pretty good a run on the wood due to a very cold winter. I was concerned about the supplier running out of wood so I needed to locate more wood and heard there was some in Ato ka Oklahoma. So while I was picking up 6 cords from my supplier I decided t o ask one of the guys loading the truck how far Atoka Oklahoma was he said 15 minutes further down the road. I thought that seems wrong so I ask a dif ferent guy and he said I had about an hour and a half down the road. Puzzle d by the difference I ask another and he said 25 minutes. Frustrated I anno unced my findings to the group of guys. One guy piped up and said, =93Aroun d here we don't pay much attention to time or distance we figure if you got s to go you gots to go=94. That's a lot like covering a Kolb. to Fabric a firestar cage ???Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:44:03 -0500From: bm wbikecrz@aol.comAny one know long to Do the fabric on a Firestar KX Stoppi ng at the top of the fuel Tank Thanks ! Dave ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:21 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "jim" Is the Universal designed to either increase or decrease incidence over the standard, or will it only decrease angle of incidence? I am wondering if I should increase the angle of incidence on the port (left) side. It would seem that might also increase the nose down pitch slightly. Last winter I replaced the boom tube on my Firefly to correct damage caused by the previous owner. At that time I did elect to move the forward attach point on the horiz stab up about 3/4 inch. This did reduce the down elevator required to hold straight and level, but not as much as I would like. It is my understanding that the Firefly is designed to have reflex flaps. When the flaperons are up a few degrees from the neutral position in cruise, speed at a given power setting is increased. The Maule (with the fat Clark Y airfoil) uses this technique to increase cruise speed 5mph. I will definitely get a swivel for my Firefly. Thanks and Merry Christmas to all. Jim -------- Jim N. Idaho Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154099#154099 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:56 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "JetPilot" Good catch on the Maule, I looked into that today and they do reflex thier flaps slightly (only a few degrees) to increase cruise, but not to adjust flight trim. But the maules are cruising at 140 MPH, there is a speed below which they say the reflex does not help, and definately for takeoff and landing. I dont know if the firefly will ever get fast enough to need reflex flaps, anyways Kolb says to adjust the flaps on the MK III to flat with the bottom of the wing, and that is where it works best for my MK III Xtra. I did experiment with reflexing flaps and ailerons quite a bit on my plane, but it just increased the stall speed, and did not fly as nice. As Richard says, its easy to play with and see what results you like. The adjustable wing brackets adjust both ways on the MK III, up or down. Decreasing the wing incidence will make your plane pitch down more. -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154108#154108 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:05 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "The BaronVonEvil" Hi Jim, It just so happens I happen to have an extra English U joint if you want it. I bought two for my Firestar II after I powder coated my cage and found out the wing incidence had changed. Turns out I only need one U joint to trim out the plane. I powder coated them black because thats the color the powder coating guy was running at the time. You can lightly sand the coating and paint to match your airframe. Let me know what you would like to do. Best Regards Carlos Grageda grageda@innw.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154118#154118 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/english_u_joint_145.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:06 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Kolb-List: Holiday Greetings I would like to extend my greetings for a Merry Christmas/holiday of choice to all of The Kolb Family. And further, Good Health, Safe Flying, and whatever makes you happy. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:33 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "jim" Baron -- Thanks. I've sent an email off-list. -------- Jim N. 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