---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/25/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:42 AM - Re: Christmas greetings (David Lucas) 2. 04:24 AM - Re: Holiday Greetings (Eugene Zimmerman) 3. 06:31 AM - Monument Valley at Night (Richard Pike) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Monument Valley at Night (Larry Bourne) 5. 08:05 AM - drag strut attach point (boyd) 6. 08:21 AM - Wire Label Printer (jerb) 7. 08:32 AM - Re: FF tailwheel weight (jerb) 8. 08:36 AM - Re: Wire Label Printer (Larry Bourne) 9. 10:04 AM - Any known Kolb in flight structural failures (John H Murphy) 10. 10:12 AM - Re: Merry Christmas (David Lucas) 11. 10:18 AM - Re: Monument Valley at Night (Ron) 12. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Merry Christmas (Bob Noyer) 13. 11:07 AM - Re: FF tailwheel weight (David Kulp) 14. 12:08 PM - Re: Christmas greetings (David Kulp) 15. 12:08 PM - Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Ron) 16. 12:31 PM - Re: Christmas greetings (Larry Cottrell) 17. 01:13 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (herbgh@juno.com) 18. 01:16 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (neilsenrm@comcast.net) 19. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (Jack B. Hart) 20. 01:40 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (neilsenrm@comcast.net) 21. 02:30 PM - Engine damper mounts (Richard Girard) 22. 02:36 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Richard Girard) 23. 03:54 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Dan G.) 24. 04:05 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Ron) 25. 04:18 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (herbgh@juno.com) 26. 04:21 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Ron) 27. 04:33 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Ron) 28. 05:00 PM - Re: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures (Dana Hague) 29. 06:13 PM - Re: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures (robert bean) 30. 06:13 PM - Re: How do you like your FireFly? (Dave Bigelow) 31. 06:25 PM - Re: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach (Dan G.) 32. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (N27SB@aol.com) 33. 07:34 PM - Re: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures (JetPilot) 34. 09:21 PM - Re: Wire Label Printer (jerb) 35. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jerb) 36. 09:44 PM - Re: Re: How do you like your FireFly? (jerb) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Christmas greetings From: "David Lucas" Well, I was amused by it Dana, and not being a US citizen have got no political affiliation with either party. It was just good humour. Made me smile :-) Thank You ! Happy Christmas everyone ! David. PS, Dana, I also like your regular Post Scripts ! Keep 'em comming ! Do Not Archive. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154149#154149 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:10 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Holiday Greetings Thanks Bob, Merry Christmas to you, and God's best to all for 2008. Gene On Dec 24, 2007, at 10:01 PM, Bob Noyer wrote: > I would like to extend my greetings for a Merry Christmas/holiday > of choice to all of The Kolb Family. And further, Good Health, Safe > Flying, and whatever makes you happy. > > regards, > Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb > http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:44 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: Monument Valley at Night To all the Kolbers who get to enjoy Monument Valley, the website Astronomy Picture of the Day has just posted a marvellous view of the valley at night, might bring back some pleasant memories. Enjoy! http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap071225.html Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:51 AM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Monument Valley at Night Richard, that is tremendous ! ! ! Thanks very much. Merry Christmas ! ! ! Lar. Richard Pike wrote: > > To all the Kolbers who get to enjoy Monument Valley, the website > Astronomy Picture of the Day has just posted a marvellous view of the > valley at night, might bring back some pleasant memories. Enjoy! > http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap071225.html > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:55 AM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: Kolb-List: drag strut attach point Jim..... with regard to the heavy left wing let me offer an opinion. Before you make the changes fly the plane straight and level and while doing so look at your ailerons. Try to tell if they are both in the same relative position.... or is one up and the other down.... If the ailerons are both in the neutral position, you would be better with a trim tab.... However if on the (heavy wing) the aileron is down, then increasing the incidence on the heavy wing Or decreasing the incidence on the light wing would be the correct thing to do. This will cause the ailerons to both fly in the neutral position... You could ask me how I know.... Instead of buying the adjustable universal mounts... I modified mine by welding a very small bead on one side of the 1/2 inch mounting hole and filing out the other side. I increased the incidence on one and decreased it in the other.... it flew hands off but the ailerons were out of the neutral position.... I later bought another original set and installed them and installed a trim tab... now things fly hands off and ailerons are in the neutral position, I still have the modified mounts in the shop (I think) if you want to try. Boyd... Brigham city Utah. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:57 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Kolb-List: Wire Label Printer Hey Folks, Some of you have been looking for in-expensive wire/cable label printer. Happen to see the Lowe's in my area has a Rhino Label Printer for printing wire labels. It's around $49 for the printer, label tape is addition. You'll find it in the electrical dept. This is what they call an In/Out item meaning it is not a regular carried item and will not be on their web site. A great Christmas gift for yourself (always get what you want that way)... If you need their item number, let me know. jerb ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:14 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FF tailwheel weight Bob N., Now we all know this was done on purpose so you wouldn't feel guilty over stuffing yourself with a large Christmas dinner. It just will not work Bob, you will not fool the airplane. jerb At 08:54 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Dave, > >As promised, I weighed my FF's tail wheel. Have a rather std FF, >brakes, larger tires, not much else for weight, about 3 gal fuel. >Tailwheel on electronic scale=56# When I came home, the dang scale >had 'slud' over and fell on driveway when I opened the door! Now my >weight has dropped to 146 from 175!!! > > >regards, >Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb >http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:37 AM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wire Label Printer Thanks ! ! ! I took one look at this and forwarded it to my work email. My guys can really use that. Merry Christmas ! ! ! Lar. Do not Archive. jerb wrote: > Hey Folks, > Some of you have been looking for in-expensive *wire/cable label > printer*. Happen to see the Lowe's in my area has a Rhino Label > Printer for printing wire labels. It's around $49 for the printer, > label tape is addition. You'll find it in the electrical dept. This > is what they call an In/Out item meaning it is not a regular carried > item and will not be on their web site. A great Christmas gift for > yourself (always get what you want that way)... If you need their > item number, let me know. > jerb > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:30 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures From: "John H Murphy" Has there ever been a reported structural failure of a Kolb in flight? The kind of structural failure such as a collapsed wing, struts, boom, cage or tail feathers? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154205#154205 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Merry Christmas From: "David Lucas" And a very blessed Christmas to you too Richard ! By the way, in lieu of 'TPGold', doesn't 'SeaFoam' have certain medicinal qualities suitable to this application [Wink] Happy Christmas everyone ! David. Do Not Archive. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154207#154207 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:56 AM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Monument Valley at Night That's a really nice picture, now I have to make the Kolb pilgrimage there one of these days. Ron Arizona ============= ---- Richard Pike wrote: ============ To all the Kolbers who get to enjoy Monument Valley, the website Astronomy Picture of the Day has just posted a marvellous view of the valley at night, might bring back some pleasant memories. Enjoy! http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap071225.html Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:20 AM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Merry Christmas Re: TpG+Seafoam..mix 50:1....or is it 1:50. In the case of 4-strokes, just a shot every hr or when needed as a pick-me-up. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:51 AM PST US From: "David Kulp" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FF tailwheel weight Bob In re weighing tailwheels -- I'm sure you've heard of the woman who gave birth at a fishing camp. The infant was weighed on the fish- weighing scales; weighed 37 lbs! On Dec 21, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Bob Noyer wrote: > Dave, > > As promised, I weighed my FF's tail wheel. Have a rather std FF, > brakes, larger tires, not much else for weight, about 3 gal fuel. > Tailwheel on electronic scale=56# When I came home, the dang scale > had 'slud' over and fell on driveway when I opened the door! Now my > weight has dropped to 146 from 175!!! > > > regards, > Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb Russ, I suggested to him to hawk it at a Curves For Women - he could pick up quite a few bucks for it! I'm very greatful for his contribution to setting up the trailer I'm fabricating for my FF! He's quite a fine gentleman. Hope all on the list - active and lurkers - are having a blessed Christmas. Best wishes for a fine year of flying ahead! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA FireFly 098 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:35 PM PST US From: "David Kulp" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Christmas greetings Dana, I thought this to be a forum for building and flying Kolb aircraft not a right wing evangelical republican propaganda site. John Dana Hague wrote: To All My Democrat Friends: Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low- stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion...Anyone who cares,My bro lists pretty far to the port side and he sends stuff like this. We don't agree on everything philosophically, butwe both still have a sense of humor.Merry Christmas to all. Keep smiling.Dave KulpBethlehem, PADo Not Archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:35 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach As I mentioned earlier folks to those who are interested, here are some of the missing pix of the bottom mount rails. All hardware is SS so after painting I will never have rust streaks from the bolts. I need to now have the motor sit on top of this and then adjust it to center and then drill for final placement. In future if the motor need to be canted for whatever purpose it will be simple to purchase the bottom Angles .25 6061 alum from Spruce and adjust as needed. The angles are fairly inexpensive from spruce and they cut them to length for you, I think its something under 5 bucks per foot. The rubber biscuits are from NAPA for $2.50 each. Not expensive at all even for us on a budget. The bolts that will fasten the whole thing together will be stainless as well and fairly robust, I will make sure they fill the holes in the rubber donuts 5/16 comes to mind but ain't sure yet. Merry Christmas Ron Arizona ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:53 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Christmas greetings Personally I thought that it was pretty funny and anyone who could not see the irony of the missive is most likely the cause of it and should damn well get over themselves. Merry Christmas to all Larry C do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: David Kulp To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Christmas greetings Dana, I thought this to be a forum for building and flying Kolb aircraft not a right wing evangelical republican propaganda site. John Dana Hague wrote: To All My Democrat Friends: Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low- stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion... Anyone who cares,My bro lists pretty far to the port side and he sends stuff like this. We don't agree on everything philosophically, butwe both still have a sense of humor.Merry Christmas to all. Keep smiling.Dave KulpBethlehem, PADo Not Archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:24 PM PST US From: "herbgh@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach Ron Can you give me enough info on the Napa rubber biscuits to enable me to order them or direct the Napa folks to the correct catalog..? I went this route once before , but the local napa guy could not find them by description..Herb _____________________________________________________________ Click here for free info on Graduate Degrees. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifmxKZ7LBxWSEkZCC9uyTWxvFGYV7omnylT5lsnWAeq4JdrX/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:30 PM PST US From: neilsenrm@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_14576_1198617352_2-- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:53 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? Mike, All of this has to do with your view point and frame of mind. But if you look at the wing and power loading of light GA aircraft, you will find examples and data that can be applied to the Kolb designs. My first flight was in my uncle's Aeronca Champ 7A, and my brother flew a Piper Cub C-3. Over the years about 10,000 Champs and 20,000 Cubs were produced. I consider these two as bench mark GA aircraft and the number of pilots who were trained in them must at least in the six figure region. The gross weight power loading is: Cub 18.75 lbs/hp Champ 18.77 lbs/hp The gross weight wing loading is: Cub 6.84 lbs/sq ft Champ 7.18 lbs/sq ft FireFly 4.27 lbs/sq ft (500/117} Dividing the FireFly gross weight by 18.76 indicates that the FireFly will match their power loading with only 26.7 hp. In comparison anything below this may be considered under powered or substandard. With 27 hp the FireFly will out climb the Champ or Cub by at least 38%. This indicates that it is not necessarily power but wing loading that is the most important factor when it comes to an engine out. Just ask any glider pilot. Fly smart and safe. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN At 06:11 PM 12/21/07 -0800, you wrote: > ........................... >As far as engine, I would put a 503 on it, much more reliable an better than the 447. As far as some that say its overpowered, those are guys that have small engines and try to convince themselves that they made the correct choice by having a small, sub standard engine... Nothing says you need to fly around at high power all the time, but lots of power is a really great thing to have when you need it. More power is also safer, will get you out of trouble when you need it, you will get off the ground quicker, and on takeoff you will also be a lot higher at the end of runway.. If the engine quits on takeoff, you will have several hundred feet more altitude then they poor guy with the small, very light engine. > >.............The only people I ever hear talk about some planes "having to much power" are pilots of doggy, sluggish airplanes that are trying to convince themselves that a lack of power is a good thing. > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:15 PM PST US From: neilsenrm@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10650_1198618659_2-- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:17 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: Engine damper mounts Rather than trying to tell some pimple factory what it is you want at the Napa store, try McMaster Carr (McMaster.com) page 1318 top. Rick ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:36 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach Ron, You might want to consider welding compression tubes into your frame rails so they don't collapse the rails when you torque down the engine mounting bolts. The old mounts on my Mark III had rectangular tube spacers without compression tubes and it was never possible to really tighten the through bolts. The result was that all the pieces fretted against each other. Just a thought. Rick On Dec 25, 2007 3:37 PM, wrote: > NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10650_1198618659_2-- > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:07 PM PST US From: "Dan G." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach Ron, Thanks for keeping us up to date on the Suzuki install, especially the photos. I have always been very interested in automotove/motorcycle engine conversions for aircraft. One comment I have, for what its worth, is to be careful of stainless steel bolts in high stress locations. Garden variety stainless bolts have about 1/3 the yield strength and 60 percent of the tensile strength of Grade 5 fasteners. In your application, it looks like you have the freedom to oversize the bolts, so you could go with stainless but use larger sizes. Unless you want to do a full stress analysis, I would look at applications with similar stresses (eg. same engine weight) and then if using stainless, go with bolt diameters two sizes larger than you would with a grade 5 or 8. Or you could go with high strength stainless like A286. Dan G. F2 Tucson Ron wrote: >As I mentioned earlier folks to those who are interested, here are some of the missing pix of the bottom mount rails. All hardware is SS so after painting I will never have rust streaks from the bolts. I need to now have the motor sit on top of this and then adjust it to center and then drill for final placement. In future if the motor need to be canted for whatever purpose it will be simple to purchase the bottom Angles .25 6061 alum from Spruce and adjust as needed. The angles are fairly inexpensive from spruce and they cut them to length for you, I think its something under 5 bucks per foot. The rubber biscuits are from NAPA for $2.50 each. Not expensive at all even for us on a budget. The bolts that will fasten the whole thing together will be stainless as well and fairly robust, I will make sure they fill the holes in the rubber donuts 5/16 comes to mind but ain't sure yet. >Merry Christmas >Ron >Arizona > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:29 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach Ok I found the receipt from NAPA, here is the number on the receipt "602-1045 its noted as MR MOUNT" I think I have the boxes in the hanger trash, so if that doesn't do it let me know and I'll fish out the boxes. I guess I ought to document somewhere this stuff.. :-) Now I am going to be using 8 of them, 4 on the bottom and 4 on top they are $2.9 each. Believe it or not Ace has pretty similar stuff to this, and the smell test indicates that its very close to being the same rubber compound. However Ace wants 4 bucks for each rubber donut. Ron Arizona ============================== ---- "herbgh@juno.com" wrote: ============ Ron Can you give me enough info on the Napa rubber biscuits to enable me to order them or direct the Napa folks to the correct catalog..? I went this route once before , but the local napa guy could not find them by description..Herb _____________________________________________________________ Click here for free info on Graduate Degrees. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifmxKZ7LBxWSEkZCC9uyTWxvFGYV7omnylT5lsnWAeq4JdrX/ -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:58 PM PST US From: "herbgh@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach Ron Many thanks...I will give it a try tomorrow.. finding shock mounts , or rubber that can be used as such has been difficult here in SE Ky.. ; I need some for replacement on my N3 Pup. I am told that Lord makes their shock mounts of all types in Bowling Green Ky.. so close yet so far!! :-) Herb so not archive attach catchy phrase here: :-) _____________________________________________________________ Click here to double your salary by becoming a medical transcriber. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifev4iwLAdVhqgnBnxzT3ON1ISJZVFs4ReSvr3bcYcPSmRZL/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:47 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach I decided against any vertical drilling of the tubes. The hols will be through the aluminum only and with just enough clearance to be able to tighten the nut on the bottom side of the Angle, about 30% of the donut will rest directly above the rail. the rest will be a bit outboard on the angle. As you can imagine I spent quite a bit of time playing / thinking about it. This is as most Kolbs are a prototype, and its built to be as robust and as simple as possible. I already know of several different ways of making the mount, not necessarily better. I do think that this for now is probably the least complicated way of doing it. However all along I did not want to drill any holes in the rails, I finally settled on 3 of .25 holes for the bolts through the middle of the rail as you see in the pix. As that area is little stressed vertically and the angles on top will transfer loads all along the rail. I did initially almost go and do what you are proposing though. Ron Arizona ====================== ---- Richard Girard wrote: ============ Ron, You might want to consider welding compression tubes into your frame rails so they don't collapse the rails when you torque down the engine mounting bolts. The old mounts on my Mark III had rectangular tube spacers without compression tubes and it was never possible to really tighten the through bolts. The result was that all the pieces fretted against each other. Just a thought. Rick On Dec 25, 2007 3:37 PM, wrote: > NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10650_1198618659_2-- > > -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:27 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach As you can imagine, :-) I thought about that as well. The bottom rail bolts are in shear load mostly and each .25 is rated iirc to min of 125000 psi. In other words .75 = .25 x 3 =.75 is worth about 93000 pounds per side. as I have two sides I think it looks like I will need about 186000 lb of force to shear them. There is nothing on the Kolb that will stay on if I am ever near any crash load like that including me. The upper bolts will also be mostly in shear but they will need to transfer force to a larger area via the rubber and the angles. So that's why they are much bigger size for the top. But will see, I may change everything right after the first time I fire the engine up. Ron Arizona ====================== ---- "Dan G." wrote: ============ Ron, Thanks for keeping us up to date on the Suzuki install, especially the photos. I have always been very interested in automotove/motorcycle engine conversions for aircraft. One comment I have, for what its worth, is to be careful of stainless steel bolts in high stress locations. Garden variety stainless bolts have about 1/3 the yield strength and 60 percent of the tensile strength of Grade 5 fasteners. In your application, it looks like you have the freedom to oversize the bolts, so you could go with stainless but use larger sizes. Unless you want to do a full stress analysis, I would look at applications with similar stresses (eg. same engine weight) and then if using stainless, go with bolt diameters two sizes larger than you would with a grade 5 or 8. Or you could go with high strength stainless like A286. Dan G. F2 Tucson Ron wrote: >As I mentioned earlier folks to those who are interested, here are some of the missing pix of the bottom mount rails. All hardware is SS so after painting I will never have rust streaks from the bolts. I need to now have the motor sit on top of this and then adjust it to center and then drill for final placement. In future if the motor need to be canted for whatever purpose it will be simple to purchase the bottom Angles .25 6061 alum from Spruce and adjust as needed. The angles are fairly inexpensive from spruce and they cut them to length for you, I think its something under 5 bucks per foot. The rubber biscuits are from NAPA for $2.50 each. Not expensive at all even for us on a budget. The bolts that will fasten the whole thing together will be stainless as well and fairly robust, I will make sure they fill the holes in the rubber donuts 5/16 comes to mind but ain't sure yet. >Merry Christmas >Ron >Arizona > -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:41 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures At 01:04 PM 12/25/2007, John H Murphy wrote: >Has there ever been a reported structural failure of a Kolb in flight? The >kind of structural failure such as a collapsed wing, struts, boom, cage or >tail feathers? Others could answer better than I, who've only been here about a year, but since nobody else has responded, there are three I've heard of: An Ultrastar deliberately tested to destruction at around 6 g's (the wing drag strut failed, the pilot successfully deployed a parachute, and Kolb subsequently strengthened that area), and two wing leading edge failures on early Firestars that were also flown very hard (one pilot rode the chute down and lived to tell about it, the other didn't.) Search the list archives and you'll find the discussions. -Dana -- "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:04 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures You have to be gentle with the flight controls if you use all Harbor Fright hardware. BB do not archive On 25, Dec 2007, at 7:54 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 01:04 PM 12/25/2007, John H Murphy wrote: > >> Has there ever been a reported structural failure of a Kolb in >> flight? The kind of structural failure such as a collapsed wing, >> struts, boom, cage or tail feathers? > > Others could answer better than I, who've only been here about a > year, but since nobody else has responded, there are three I've > heard of: An Ultrastar deliberately tested to destruction at > around 6 g's (the wing drag strut failed, the pilot successfully > deployed a parachute, and Kolb subsequently strengthened that > area), and two wing leading edge failures on early Firestars that > were also flown very hard (one pilot rode the chute down and lived > to tell about it, the other didn't.) Search the list archives and > you'll find the discussions. > > -Dana > -- > "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill > Gates, 1981 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:04 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? From: "Dave Bigelow" > I have a Firefly with a 503. I haven't flown one with a 447, but my airplane always wants to pitch up and fly left (left wing very heavy). This is because of the extra weight and torque of the 503. The trim tab on the left aileron is already full up. > > I expected the 503 to climb out at 1500 fpm but it's more like 1000 fpm from my home field (2500 msl). > > If I were to buy or build another Firefly, I would definitely use the 447. I think the only thing I would miss on the 503 is the oil injection. > > To be 103 legal in the Firefly, you are limited to 2-bladed wood prop,small wheels, no brakes, no or limited gages, 1 coat of paint, short windscreen. > > I have the short windscreen. It is very wind. I actually think it would be better to take it off completely. The short windshield seems to put all the turbulent air right at head. > > Mine has the gap seal removed (between wings). I am 6-01 and if it were there, I think my head wouldn't fit in the airplane. Virtually all modern sailplanes have flap/aileron interconnects that result in the ailerons being at the same angle to the wing as the flaps. When you move the ailerons, the flaps move right along with the ailerons Negative flaps (whole flap/aileron system up) are used to change the wing camber to a more efficient shape for high speed flight. I don't notice much trim change when going between positive and negative flaps, but do notice a somewhat reduced roll rate with negative flaps. I don't believe trimming the ailerons up and down is a very efficient way to pitch trim a conventional aircraft. It does work well with a flying wing. Jim, With your aircraft being tail heavy, you should first do a weight and balance to check that the CG is within the recommended range. Aft CG out of the proper range is dangerous. If the CG is not out of limits, the most efficient (from a drag standpoint) way to trim it is to raise the front of the horizontal stabilizer a bit. You are degrading the efficiency of the wing by flying the aircraft without a gap cover. Minimally, at least the top surface of the gap should be covered. You might see that 1500 feet per minute rate of climb you expected with a gap cover in place. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154269#154269 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:03 PM PST US From: "Dan G." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach Ron, Now that I look at the numbers, I agree they look pretty good. I am often guilty of over thinking things, but I believe it usually ends up being for the best. The calc I did comes out differently but still looks favorable. The minimum tensile strength I've seen for ordinary 304/347/316 is 75000 psi. Shear failures occur at 50 to 60 percent of tensile strength, so I used 37500 psi. The shear area of a .25 inch fastener is .049 sq-in, so the shear load each can handle is 37500 x .049 = 1840 lbs. Still a big number. What has always concerned me about ordinary ss bolts is their yield strength is only about 40 percent of tensile. This means they can stretch and therefore loosen up at less than half the rated tensile load. Probably like most of us, I am used to being pretty conservative since real life is usually more complex than the calcs assume. I am not familiar with iirc - does that mean strain hardened? I see those are rated to 100 ksi yield and 125 ksi tensile which is a very sturdy solution. Thanks for sharing the process with us - we all learn a lot along the way. Dan Tucson Ron wrote: > >As you can imagine, :-) >I thought about that as well. The bottom rail bolts are in shear load mostly and each .25 is rated iirc to min of 125000 psi. In other words .75 = .25 x 3 =.75 is worth about 93000 pounds per side. as I have two sides I think it looks like I will need about 186000 lb of force to shear them. There is nothing on the Kolb that will stay on if I am ever near any crash load like that including me. The upper bolts will also be mostly in shear but they will need to transfer force to a larger area via the rubber and the angles. So that's why they are much bigger size for the top. >But will see, I may change everything right after the first time I fire the engine up. >Ron >Arizona > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:25 PM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? In a message dated 12/24/2007 7:11:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, orcabonita@hotmail.com writes: Kolb says to adjust the flaps on the MK III to flat with the bottom of the wing, Make sure that when you measure this parameter that you are holding pressure under each aileron to take the slack out, Also Mike, keep in mind that the Kolb airfoil is not like most airfoils. It is Homer's own Homebrewed shape. It has it's own personality, which is what most Kolb Pilots appreciate. I found on my Firefly that very minor changes in the aileron give significant trim change. It is also different than your MkIIIX in that it tends to have almost no trim change from Splash Off to Splash On. Steve B Firefly 007/Floats do not archive **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:10 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any known Kolb in flight structural failures From: "JetPilot" There was a recent case on a MK III where the front of the tail attach point fatigued, cracked, and failed in flight. The front of one side of the horizontal stabilizer went straight up, and jammed against the tail wire, being flat into the wind. The rest of the tail stayed together and the pilot flew it to a safe landing under control. I also read of a very old case where a guy flew a MK II in Canada in very extreme turbulence, and a weld on the rear wing attach failed. The quality of the welding was fixed many years ago according to the article. As far as structure, the Kolbs have a very good structrual record compared to most other airplanes of its class. Except for the first case with the tail, Almost every failure ever recorded was caused by abuse far in excess for which the planes were designed. Aerobatics, etc. etc... Kolbs have a good reputation for being strong planes. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154276#154276 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:06 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wire Label Printer Lar, Here's a link to a site with many different model? Might want to check it out. jerb http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=rhino+label+printer&um=1&ie=UTF-8 At 10:36 AM 12/25/2007, you wrote: >Thanks ! ! ! I took one look at this and forwarded it to my work >email. My guys can really use that. Merry Christmas ! ! >! Lar. Do not Archive. > >jerb wrote: >>Hey Folks, >>Some of you have been looking for in-expensive wire/cable label >>printer. Happen to see the Lowe's in my area has a Rhino Label >>Printer for printing wire labels. It's around $49 for the printer, >>label tape is addition. You'll find it in the electrical >>dept. This is what they call an In/Out item meaning it is not a >>regular carried item and will not be on their web site. A great >>Christmas gift for yourself (always get what you want that >>way)... If you need their item number, let me know. >>jerb >> >> >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:09 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? Dave, You may need to adjust the alignment of your engine to compensate for the torque factor it produces - how's it do on pitch when your at cruise power, do you have to hold back stick or forward pressure - if you have had to add a major trim tag to your elevator to compensate for stick forces for nose up or nose heavy condition you might want to adjust the engines angle front to rear by shinning using large fender washers. I recall which way it has to be changed for each, got to think on that a bit - had to do that on my Hawk. Ya, I some what agree with you about the short windscreen - it seems like it directs it right at your face and throat area. We applied silver to top and bottom of the wings and extra coat to top of all surfaces - you probably will not apply the top coat to the point of getting the glossy look if your trying to make the weight. jerb At 08:11 PM 12/25/2007, you wrote: > > > > I have a Firefly with a 503. I haven't flown one with a 447, but > my airplane always wants to pitch up and fly left (left wing very > heavy). This is because of the extra weight and torque of the 503. > The trim tab on the left aileron is already full up. > > > > I expected the 503 to climb out at 1500 fpm but it's more like > 1000 fpm from my home field (2500 msl). > > > > If I were to buy or build another Firefly, I would definitely use > the 447. I think the only thing I would miss on the 503 is the oil injection. > > > > To be 103 legal in the Firefly, you are limited to 2-bladed wood > prop,small wheels, no brakes, no or limited gages, 1 coat of paint, > short windscreen. > > > > I have the short windscreen. It is very wind. I actually think it > would be better to take it off completely. The short windshield > seems to put all the turbulent air right at head. > > > > Mine has the gap seal removed (between wings). I am 6-01 and if > it were there, I think my head wouldn't fit in the airplane. > > >Virtually all modern sailplanes have flap/aileron interconnects that >result in the ailerons being at the same angle to the wing as the >flaps. When you move the ailerons, the flaps move right along with >the ailerons Negative flaps (whole flap/aileron system up) are used >to change the wing camber to a more efficient shape for high speed >flight. I don't notice much trim change when going between positive >and negative flaps, but do notice a somewhat reduced roll rate with >negative flaps. I don't believe trimming the ailerons up and down >is a very efficient way to pitch trim a conventional aircraft. It >does work well with a flying wing. > >Jim, >With your aircraft being tail heavy, you should first do a weight >and balance to check that the CG is within the recommended >range. Aft CG out of the proper range is dangerous. If the CG is >not out of limits, the most efficient (from a drag standpoint) way >to trim it is to raise the front of the horizontal stabilizer a bit. > >You are degrading the efficiency of the wing by flying the aircraft >without a gap cover. Minimally, at least the top surface of the gap >should be covered. You might see that 1500 feet per minute rate of >climb you expected with a gap cover in place. > >-------- >Dave Bigelow >Kamuela, Hawaii >FS2, HKS 700E > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154269#154269 > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:34 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How do you like your FireFly? One thing I would do if I were to build another and that is reduce the cord of the flaps and ailerons - see comments made by Jack Hart. It is a little sensitive on the roll control to the point where you almost fighting your self. Regarding the wheels and tires on the FireFly see comment posted by Guy Morgan 02 Aug 2004 16:26, he covers what he did regarding the tires. jerb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.