---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/19/08: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - Re: Streamlining struts (R. Hankins) 2. 05:31 AM - Re: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th (possums) 3. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th (John Hauck) 4. 06:43 AM - Re: Holes in the sky (Eugene Zimmerman) 5. 07:48 AM - And speaking of VG's (Richard Girard) 6. 08:08 AM - Re: And speaking of VG's (John Hauck) 7. 08:41 AM - Re: And speaking of VG's (Richard Girard) 8. 08:59 AM - Re: And speaking of VG's (John Hauck) 9. 09:01 AM - Re: Holes in the sky (lucien) 10. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (John Hauck) 11. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (Mike Welch) 12. 10:03 AM - Re: Holes in the sky (LEE CREECH) 13. 10:23 AM - Re: And speaking of VG's (Larry Cottrell) 14. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (Richard Girard) 15. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (Larry Cottrell) 16. 10:56 AM - Re: Holes in the sky (lucien) 17. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (John Hauck) 18. 01:05 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (Richard Pike) 19. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (John Hauck) 20. 02:47 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (chris davis) 21. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (robert bean) 22. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (John Hauck) 23. 03:42 PM - Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (The Kuffels) 24. 03:44 PM - Re: Streamlining struts (planecrazzzy) 25. 04:42 PM - Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (Larry Cottrell) 26. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 27. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (Richard Pike) 28. 07:24 PM - Re: Holes in the sky (lucien) 29. 08:04 PM - Excellent procedure (David Herron) 30. 10:05 PM - Re: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th (Richard Girard) 31. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: Holes in the sky (Richard Girard) 32. 10:10 PM - Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (Richard Girard) 33. 10:59 PM - Re: Holes in the sky (JetPilot) 34. 11:26 PM - Re: Streamlining struts (JetPilot) 35. 11:29 PM - Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th (JetPilot) 36. 11:55 PM - Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:30 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Streamlining struts From: "R. Hankins" Thom, That agrees with what I came up with using a piece of newspaper, some scotch tape and a one inch tube. I left my copy of "Aerodynamics for Engineers" on the shelf, along with my Mark's handbook for Mechanical Engineers. Sometimes a 20-20 eyeball will get you close enough. I assumed that rick had substituted circumference for diameter and tried a six inch wrap, but it looked too short. I then cut one so that it "looked" about right and came out with 8 1/2 inches. I would like to try applying streamlining to all of my exposed tubing this spring sometime and report the results to the list. I don't expect a huge difference, but I should see some. I'll do the same thing with VG's one of these days. Hoping for sunshine....... -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159176#159176 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:20 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th At 02:54 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote: > > > Why host a fly in at a strip that is so short and dangerous, a > place where many people cant land ? > >Mike B: > >Nauga Field keeps out the riff raff, and those that can not Kolbs. > >Some of us had a ball last year at the first annual Nauga Field >flyin at Star Hill, LA. > > >john h >mkIII - Holder of the first Nauga Award for winning the Nauga Field >Short Landing Contest 2007. ------------------------------------------------------ Doesn't look any worse than the little strip we fly out of. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022448200127542755&hl=en ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:33 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th > Doesn't look any worse than the little strip we fly out of. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022448200127542755&hl=en Possum: Nauga Field is twice as long as Gantt International Airport, 750 feet, 410 feet ASL. Been flying out of it for 24 years. Was a whopping 600 feet, unimproved, for the first couple years flying the Ultrastar and Firestar. I guess our little airstrips are intimidating when one is accustomed to flying airborne taxi cabs off hard strips. Reminds me of Crazy Ed out of Brooklyn, NY. He landed on a derelict barge in NY Harbor. Or Possum landing on a sand bar next to a wrecked tug boat. john h mkIII - Waiting for the winter storm to start at hauck's holler, alabama. Calling for lots of snow. So far 34F and rain. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:33 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Holes in the sky On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > about 100 feet only deviating enough to harass ( that would be Look > closely) Coyotes, Antelope and Deer. Look closely ?? Where is the pict? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:28 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: And speaking of VG's One of my contributors to EAA Chapter 88's newsletter is a retired Beechcraft engineer. His article for the January issue was on vortex generators. Anyone who wishes to read it can drop me a post and I'll send along a pdf of the Beacon. If you have a phone modem, be sure and tell me and I'll send it at a convenient time for you as it's about 1.5 megs. Rick ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:09 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: And speaking of VG's Rick G: How about going to your EAA Chapter 88 web site, click on Beacon newsletter, then scroll down to pg 5? ;-) http://www.eaa88.org/beacon.pdf A lot easier than fax'ing. john h mkIII - Lazy in the Heart of Dixie, watching the snow flakes fall. One of my contributors to EAA Chapter 88's newsletter is a retired Beechcraft engineer. His article for the January issue was on vortex generators. Rick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:40 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: And speaking of VG's John, The old webmaster used to keep the newsletters in the members only area. I didn't know the new guy had changed the policy. Rick the Chapter 88 mushroom :-) and newsletter editor On Jan 19, 2008 10:05 AM, John Hauck wrote: > Rick G: > > How about going to your EAA Chapter 88 web site, click on Beacon > newsletter, then scroll down to pg 5? ;-) > > http://www.eaa88.org/beacon.pdf > > A lot easier than fax'ing. > > john h > mkIII - Lazy in the Heart of Dixie, watching the snow flakes fall. > > > One of my contributors to EAA Chapter 88's newsletter is a retired > Beechcraft engineer. His article for the January issue was on vortex > generators. > > Rick > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:34 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: And speaking of VG's Hey Gang: Check out the photo on Rick's EAA Chapter 88 Newsletter, page 8: http://www.eaa88.org/beacon.pdf A trio of homebuilts execute a loose version of the starburst Might be loose to Rick, but not to the participants. ;-) I think Karen Cottrell or Larry took that photo at the Alvord Desert get together May 2005, the year we all camped out on the dry lake. Brings back many fond memories of our adventures. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:06 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky From: "lucien" [quote="boyter(at)mcsi.net"]Larry Be careful with the dead stick landings, one of these times you are coming in to high the engine will not start. Ask me how I know. I will never do a dead stick landing with the engine OFF again. Good luck have fun be safe. Wayne > --- For what it's worth, at least with the 2-stroke motors, this was one of the nicest things about using the C box with the clutch. You could practice actual deadsticks but with the engine still idling. Pulling back the throttle to idle disengages the clutch, which gives you exactly the situation of an engine out, minus only the total silence.... I did this a bunch with my FS II and it was really good practice. Havn't shut off the motor in the titan yet and he's got the 912uls on it... So for accurate simulations, I'll have to shut it down..... No good place found yet to practice it, but this is a good reminder that I oughta at some point... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159228#159228 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:10 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky > Pulling back the throttle to idle disengages the clutch, which gives you > exactly the situation of an engine out, minus only the total silence.... > > LS Lucien: I don't know much about clutches on C Gearboxes. Doesn't the prop windmill if the throttle is pulled back to idle? If it does, then you will be experiencing something similar to autorotation which produces a lot of drag. My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than gliding with an idling prop. An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of the prop blades. For your particular FS with gear box clutch, if that is the way you practice your dead stick landings, then that is what you will experience if you lose the engine. On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick. The Kolb will glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:34 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky > On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will > be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick. The Kolb will > glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag. > > john h > mkIII John, All good points to be aware of!! I guess that's the point. If you're airplane has a windmilling prop and produces certain tendencies, a person would want to be aware of those tendencies BEFORE an actual emergency. Equally important is the guy that has a solidly mounted prop, that is practically motionless. He definitely would want to know how his plane will reacts once everything goes silent. Practicing power off, or power reduced landings should be an essential part of a prudent pilot! If (or when) I ever face a dead stick landing, I darn sure don't want it to be the first time I ever did one. Actually, now that I think of it, years ago, when I was training in a Flightstar, the instructor turned OFF the engine...and said.."it's all your's, land it!!" Did a mighty fine job, if I say so myself. Being proficient at dead stick landings can be nothing but a good thing!! Mike Welch MkIII Do Not Archive _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:20 AM PST US From: LEE CREECH Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Holes in the sky > > My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than > gliding with an idling prop. An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in > the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of > the prop blades.> > > john h> mkIII> > By "idling", do you mean freewheeling, disengaged from the engine? If you just mean pulling the power back to idle, I've seen it argued that that con figuration still produces some thrust, resulting in somewhat better glide p erformance than with a stopped prop. I don't claim to know. If we listed these three configurations in order of best-to-worst glide per formance, would it be: (1) Power reduced to idle; (2) Stopped prop; (3) Fre ewheeling (disengaged) prop? Lee Firestar II _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:33 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: And speaking of VG's A trio of homebuilts execute a loose version of the starburst Might be loose to Rick, but not to the participants. ;-) I think Karen Cottrell or Larry took that photo at the Alvord Desert get together May 2005, the year we all camped out on the dry lake. Brings back many fond memories of our adventures. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________ Rick, I sent you a email asking for the article, but then took John's advise and went to the page directly. so disregard the original request. The problem with the VG's is of course the placement, but even with a blind placement such as I have done, the reduction in stall speed is remarkable. I was wondering if perhaps a leaf blower could be used as a makeshift wind tunnel to determine the best placement for a Kolb wing by using tufts. Since sage doesn't have any leaves to blow, I do not own one. I should think that someone should be able to angle the blower on the wing to duplicate the angle of stall and move some VG's to the point that the air reattaches. One set up should be viable for all Kolb wings, or at least most. Oh, the picture of the "starburst" was taken by my wife, Karen at the Alvord. She thinks that you should give her credit for it. The next newsletter, with a link so that she could actually verify that you did give her credit would most likely keep her from hunting you down. :-) By the way it was a good newsletter, I've done a few myself and know how tough it is to get something to fill the space. Larry C ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:20 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky John, and you'ze guys, I had the Rice King clutch in my C box. Pull the power and you have the glide ratio of the space shuttle. You couldn't pay me enough to have a clutch in my drive system again. Might as well install a drogue chute. When I got home from Sun n Fun, I pulled it out and traded it to the owner of Wallaby Ranch for flying time when I'm at Sun n Fun this year. The Wallaby Ranch uses them in their Moyes' Dragonfly tugs so they can point the nose at the ground after they release a glider and have no danger of going over VNE. It's an amazing thing to watch from above. Must have been what pilots flying cover for the Stuka's saw. Rick On Jan 19, 2008 11:38 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > > > > On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle > will > > be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick. The Kolb will > > glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag. > > > > john h > > mkIII > > > John, > > All good points to be aware of!! I guess that's the point. If you're > airplane has a windmilling prop and produces certain tendencies, a person > would want to be aware of those tendencies BEFORE an actual emergency. > Equally important is the guy that has a solidly mounted prop, that is > practically motionless. He definitely would want to know how his plane will > reacts once everything goes silent. > > Practicing power off, or power reduced landings should be an essential > part of a prudent pilot! If (or when) I ever face a dead stick landing, I > darn sure don't want it to be the first time I ever did one. > > Actually, now that I think of it, years ago, when I was training in a > Flightstar, the instructor turned OFF the engine...and said.."it's all > your's, land it!!" Did a mighty fine job, if I say so myself. Being > proficient at dead stick landings can be nothing but a good thing!! > > Mike Welch MkIII > > Do Not Archive > _________________________________________________________________ > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail(R)-get > your "fix". > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:41 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Holes in the sky ----- Original Message ----- From: LEE CREECH > > My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than > gliding with an idling prop. An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in > the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of > the prop blades.> > john h > mkIII> By "idling", do you mean freewheeling, disengaged from the engine? If you just mean pulling the power back to idle, I've seen it argued that that configuration still produces some thrust, resulting in somewhat better glide performance than with a stopped prop. I don't claim to know. If we listed these three configurations in order of best-to-worst glide performance, would it be: (1) Power reduced to idle; (2) Stopped prop; (3) Freewheeling (disengaged) prop? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- I know that this was originally addressed to John, but I wanted to add an important part to the dead stick landing problems that those who have never done it do not realize. That is the tendency to revert back to the type of landings that you make every time you get into your plane. Believe me in times of stress you will go into auto pilot mode. There isn't a much more stressfull situation than having to do your first dead stick when there isn't a good place to do it, or you are not prepared. You are used to being able to apply just a bit more gas to correct a slow flght condition, only at dead stick there is no more gas. If you flare too soon, you are going to drop. The tendency is to keep pulling back on the stick. It has always worked before and you will blindly revert to muscle memory. The tendency to do so is very hard to ignore, unless you practice. What I have found to work for me is to establish best glide speed. For me 50 mph, to establish the point that I want to land. When I get to about 50 feet I drop the nose to pick up as much more airspeed as I can. Just a bit more air speed will help, since once you pull back to flare your flying time is very limited. If you have never done a dead stick, then you are going to have to learn as you go. If you have done enough to understand what is needed to minimize damage to yourself and hopefully your plane, then it is much easier to stick to the plan that will allow you to do so. Larry C ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:21 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky From: "lucien" [quote="John Hauck"] > > Lucien: > > I don't know much about clutches on C Gearboxes. > > Doesn't the prop windmill if the throttle is pulled back to idle? > > If it does, then you will be experiencing something similar to autorotation > which produces a lot of drag. > > Yes, the prop does windmill as it's completely disengaged from the engine (at the drive pinion anyway). The drag generated, judging by the glide ratio I had vs. planes with fixed props when stopped, was considerable. The drag, tho, wasn't necessarily a bad thing. It did reduce the overall glide ratio but, on the other hand, was very useful as a poor-man's drag brake which could be very useful on an approach that was a bit too high. When practicing deadstick, you have to learn the power-off glide ratio all the same with the drag so the end result isn't any different. You just have to keep the intended landing spots closer than you otherwise would... > > > My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than > gliding with an idling prop. An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in > the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of > the prop blades. > > For your particular FS with gear box clutch, if that is the way you practice > your dead stick landings, then that is what you will experience if you lose > the engine. > > On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will > be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick. The Kolb will > glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag. > > john h > mkIII Exactly my experience too.... But like I said, the clutch allowed an exact simulation of engine-off conditions just by pulling back to idle, whereas with the prop engaged fulltime, you have to actually turn the motor off for an exact simulation. Well worth the 500 bucks for the clutch on that alone, not to mention all the other advantages it gave.... Wish I had one on my 912.... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159253#159253 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:27 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky > > Wish I had one on my 912.... > > LS Lucien: I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency power off landings, glide. There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, but can not name any to stretch it. john h ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:16 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky I can think of one... (snicker) Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) John Hauck wrote: > > > Lucien: > > I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency > power off landings, glide. There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, > but can not name any to stretch it. > > john h > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:23 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky Rev: Perhaps you will share that with us. Might come in handy if I ever have to stretch my glide. john h mkIII > I can think of one... (snicker) > > Richard Pike ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:30 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky John Ive had to stretch my glide a few times ! Hey Donnie at TNK called me yesterday and said my Firefly kit is ready and it should be delivered MONDAY !! now if I can get my workbenches and a table set up in time as Ive only been in Florida for two days and its been a short two days ,but at any rate I'll get a month or two to work on it as I have to go back up north the first week of march this year as my daughter is having a baby that week and my sweet wife wants to be there for that , as do I . Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hauck Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 5:01:14 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky Rev: Perhaps you will share that with us. Might come in handy if I ever have to stretch my glide. john h mkIII > I can think of one... (snicker) > > Richard Pike Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:59 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky Could it be that Richard is baiting us????? options: kick out passenger jato bottle lift up on seat cushion restart engine -I'll skip any spiritual concepts :) BB do not archive On 19, Jan 2008, at 3:55 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > I can think of one... (snicker) > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > John Hauck wrote: >> >> >> Lucien: >> >> I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency >> power off landings, glide. There are a lot of ways to reduce >> glide, but can not name any to stretch it. >> >> john h >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:29 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky > > options: > kick out passenger > jato bottle > lift up on seat cushion > restart engine > -I'll skip any spiritual concepts :) > BB Bob B: Guess you could lift up on the stick grip, and/or flap your arms out each door, and/or pray.............. I don't know. When airspeed is less than flying speed, one would need something spiritual to keep them flying. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:11 PM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: Kolb-List: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) Larry, A different approach path than the official FAA approved method might work better for you. Instead of circles off the end of the runway, set yourself up perpendicular to the runway about the distance you fly your base leg. Fly away from the centerline and start a series of 180 degree turns. Always make your turns on the side toward the runway. On the crossleg, aim slightly away from or toward the runway if needed to maintain your distance. When you judge the altitude is correct, turn 90 degrees to final. This method has the advantages of twice as many opportunities to be at a good approach altitude, a longer time to decide this is the leg to turn final and never turning your back to the runway. Very few of my fellow CFIs teach this method but every one I've shown it to has adopted it. Try it and let us know what you think. Tom Kuffel Whitefish, MT Building Original FireStar ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:23 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Streamlining struts From: "planecrazzzy" I made these Stream line sleeves.... I found a 18" piece of alum cheap.... Sheared it in half.... "Rolled" each 9" piece....24" Radius ??? Used a Break to bend them in the middle ( Knife blade ) Welded the seam.... Tight fit over my Lift struts.... Used 3 bolts on top ( Other bolts are 90 degrees ) They stopped my Lift Struts from vibrating in flight.... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN .. .. .. .. -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159282#159282 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/hpim0108_138.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/fish_scales__lift_struts_012_492.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/firestar_camera_mount__ram__003_589.jpg ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:54 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) Tom, Thanks I will, however what I was attempting to duplicate is a engine failure on take off. You know the routine, stay over the runway until you have enough altitude to return. Any way, the education that I was attempting was not skill, more like how much air did I lose with a 360. The dead stick was the result of increased confidence in my planes handling since tightening the elevator cables. Or cockiness which ever you prefer. Larry C do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Kuffels" Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) > > Larry, > > A different approach path than the official FAA approved method might work > better for you. > > Instead of circles off the end of the runway, set yourself up > perpendicular to the runway about the distance you fly your base leg. Fly > away from the centerline and start a series of 180 degree turns. Always > make your turns on the side toward the runway. On the crossleg, aim > slightly away from or toward the runway if needed to maintain your > distance. When you judge the altitude is correct, turn 90 degrees to > final. > > This method has the advantages of twice as many opportunities to be at a > good approach altitude, a longer time to decide this is the leg to turn > final and never turning your back to the runway. > > Very few of my fellow CFIs teach this method but every one I've shown it > to has adopted it. Try it and let us know what you think. > > Tom Kuffel > Whitefish, MT > Building Original FireStar > > > -- > 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: 1/19/2008 6:37 PM > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:16 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th I wish I was closer I would ask you if it would be OK to land across the runway instead of the long way in Ellery in Maine do not archive **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:56 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky I was thinking more along the lines of a simple device to reduce both airspeed and flying speed at the lower end of the gliding airspeed spectrum. Too bad that such a thing apparently does not exist... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) John Hauck wrote: > > > I don't know. When airspeed is less than flying speed, one would need > something spiritual to keep them flying. > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:56 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > > > > Wish I had one on my 912.... > > > > LS > > > > > > > Lucien: > > I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency power off > landings, glide. There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, but can not name > any to stretch it. > > john h Again, one has to Ask The Man Who Flies One for the real skinny on such things, especially with the RK-400 clutch since they're not too widely used. Shame, because they solve so many more problems than they introduce. At any rate, being one who actually flew the clutch and for a considerable amount of time, I don't agree that it's a safety problem for two reasons: - the reduction in glide, while noticeable, isn't that bad. My (now Bob's) FS II did not glide like a brick compared to a friend of mine's FS II that had the fixed 2-blade prop. In fact, I've flown other planes with far worse glide ratios that didn't have a clutch and they were no less safe engine-off than my FS II was. - because you can simulate the exact conditions of an engine-off landing by simply pulling back to idle, you DON'T actually have to shut off the motor. Thus, practicing them is much safer and less nerve wracking. So, you're a lot more inclined to do the practice, even in places and in conditions you otherwise wouldn't, such as at a busy or towered airport (simply ask for the option and you're ready to rock and roll). You have to learn how to glide your particular plane in to a safe landing deadstick anyway the way it's configured. You're far more likely to do the practice under safe conditions like a warm, idling engine in case you really do screw up an approach..... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159313#159313 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:36 PM PST US From: David Herron Subject: Kolb-List: Excellent procedure Tom, I had a CFI demonstrate and teach that method to me for forced approaches, it sure makes the event a little more comfortable. Its not the standard approach here or in the Transport Canada manual, but its in my routine for sure. Thanks for putting this in the list. drh ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:07 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th Ellery, You didn't shorten your name from Weldski, did you? :-) Rick On Jan 19, 2008 9:14 PM, wrote: > *I wish I was closer I would ask you if it would be OK to land across > the runway instead of the long way in * > ** > *Ellery in Maine* > ** > *do not archive* > > > ------------------------------ > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapein the new year. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:06 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky Lucien, I flew with the rice king for almost a year and absolutely hated what it did to the glide of the Kolb. They should be used for what they were made, pushing an airboat through a rice paddy. MHO Rick On Jan 19, 2008 9:22 PM, lucien wrote: > > > John Hauck wrote: > > > > > > > > Wish I had one on my 912.... > > > > > > LS > > > > > > > > > > > > Lucien: > > > > I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency power > off > > landings, glide. There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, but can not > name > > any to stretch it. > > > > john h > > > Again, one has to Ask The Man Who Flies One for the real skinny on such > things, especially with the RK-400 clutch since they're not too widely used. > Shame, because they solve so many more problems than they introduce. > > At any rate, being one who actually flew the clutch and for a considerable > amount of time, I don't agree that it's a safety problem for two reasons: > > - the reduction in glide, while noticeable, isn't that bad. My (now Bob's) > FS II did not glide like a brick compared to a friend of mine's FS II that > had the fixed 2-blade prop. In fact, I've flown other planes with far worse > glide ratios that didn't have a clutch and they were no less safe engine-off > than my FS II was. > > - because you can simulate the exact conditions of an engine-off landing > by simply pulling back to idle, you DON'T actually have to shut off the > motor. Thus, practicing them is much safer and less nerve wracking. So, > you're a lot more inclined to do the practice, even in places and in > conditions you otherwise wouldn't, such as at a busy or towered airport > (simply ask for the option and you're ready to rock and roll). > You have to learn how to glide your particular plane in to a safe landing > deadstick anyway the way it's configured. You're far more likely to do the > practice under safe conditions like a warm, idling engine in case you really > do screw up an approach..... > > LS > > -------- > LS > FS II > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159313#159313 > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:36 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) Larry for what it's worth, I've flown hundreds of dead stick approaches with this method. Well, okay, there was no stick, and no engine either for that matter, but I never failed to make the field. The only thing I would add is that if there is any crosswind, stay on the upwind side of the runway. Rick On Jan 19, 2008 5:38 PM, The Kuffels wrote: > > Larry, > > A different approach path than the official FAA approved method > might work better for you. > > Instead of circles off the end of the runway, set yourself up > perpendicular to the runway about the distance you fly your base > leg. Fly away from the centerline and start a series of 180 > degree turns. Always make your turns on the side toward the > runway. On the crossleg, aim slightly away from or toward the > runway if needed to maintain your distance. When you judge the > altitude is correct, turn 90 degrees to final. > > This method has the advantages of twice as many opportunities to > be at a good approach altitude, a longer time to decide this is > the leg to turn final and never turning your back to the runway. > > Very few of my fellow CFIs teach this method but every one I've > shown it to has adopted it. Try it and let us know what you think. > > Tom Kuffel > Whitefish, MT > Building Original FireStar > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Holes in the sky From: "JetPilot" [quote="lcottrell"]Gang, It took me less than 100 feet to complete my 360. Larry C do not archive > [b] That is incredible. Is anyone else getting glides like this out of their Kolbs ? I had been practicing forced landings, and minimum descents rates by pulling my power back to Idle.. I figured the Kolb might glide a bit better without the prop windmilling, so a couple weeks ago I got over an airport with two 6000 foot runways and shut the engine down. I was not ready for how much WORSE the glide was without the engine idling. It appears the 912 puts out a lot of thrust even at a 1900 RPM idle. Anyways, my altitude at best glide to do a 180 was 500 feet, at a 25 degree bank with my wife and I on board. I have tried this a bunch of times, from high altitudes, with same results. About 500 feet for a 180, and about 1000 feet for a complete 360 at a little less than 30 degree bank and 50 MPH. I have to agree with John Hauck, everyone should learn to approach and land with the engine shut off. If you are afraid of having an accident like Wayne did, go to an airport with runways big enough that you cannot possibly miss it. Bottom line, engines do quit, if you can not learn to do a landing on a large airport with the engine shut down, you dont have a prayer of being able to accomplish a real forced landing. The real life practice will probably make the difference between a forced landing and a crash. John, What kind of glide do you get with your MK III ? How long to make a 180 and at what speed and bank angle ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159335#159335 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Streamlining struts From: "JetPilot" That is some nice work ! I have never seen anyone weld aluminum that thin before [Shocked] Stopping the vibrations is reason enough to do that, did you get any speed gain with the stream line sleeves ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159337#159337 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:33 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th From: "JetPilot" I loved the videos Possums, watched all of the ones on your site. Your glide looked a little better than what I get, the MK III comes down quicker. I guess the extra weight and wide cockpit of the MK III take their toll on the glide. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159338#159338 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Starhill-Nauga Field Fly Around - July 11th, 12th, 13th From: "JetPilot" Hi John, I wasn't trying to trash your fly in, the runway just looks really intimidating... More difficult than I would try to operate out of at this point. I have managed to get over 100 hours in my Kolb without bending anything, mostly by expanding my limitations slowly :) Its cool you are going to the trouble to host something like this, I just took a look at some pictures and though " Oh my Gawd " , and wrote a post... Anyways look at the bright side, my post caused more discussion and advertisement than you would have gotten all year [Wink] The best luck to you and your fly in. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159339#159339 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.