Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:05 AM - Firestar (william sullivan)
2. 06:25 AM - Re: FireFly Photos (Jack B. Hart)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: FireFly Photos (John Hauck)
4. 09:42 AM - Re: Firestar (The BaronVonEvil)
5. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: used 912uls (Richard Girard)
6. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (Thom Riddle)
7. 02:11 PM - Kolb-List Digest: 912 Engine (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com)
8. 02:23 PM - Re: FireFly Photos (herbgh@juno.com)
9. 02:38 PM - Re: FireFly Photos (herbgh@juno.com)
10. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (Dana Hague)
11. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (John Hauck)
12. 06:05 PM - Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (JetPilot)
13. 06:16 PM - Re: used 912uls (JetPilot)
14. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (The Kuffels)
15. 11:26 PM - Re: Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) (possums)
Message 1
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My wife and I finally took delivery last week of a used Firestar. I am going
t need all the advice everyone can feed me, as to how to go about various repairs
and prep work until I am satisfied with it's condition. I purchased it from
a man out on Long Island, N.Y., and he delivered it to my house in Windsor Locks,
Ct. He used fly it until he got a Buccaneer. Just prior to the sale beling
completed, the tie down rope broke in a storm, and damaged the wings. A nice
set of new wings were acquired, and both sets came with it. During shipment,
a couple of holes were put in the new wings. There are also a couple of hanger
rash type spots. Except for the holes, the plane would be flyable, but a little
on the rough side.
The plane has a 447 with points (I'm told) and a two blade Warp Drive prop.
Streamlined struts and round struts came with it. Engine starts on the third
pull, and sounds good.
For the benefit of lurkers and new buyers of used Kolbs, Ellery thought it
would be a good idea to put everything on the List.
I could not find a serial number on the cage tube, or a tag. The LG struts
are the smaller diameter type, and the original wings (and the new ones) are the
five rib type. Kolb estimated that it is probably early 90's. There is an ID
plate on the engine, and it appears to have a "B" gearbox. I was told there
is about 200 hours on it. No Hobbs meter.
Too cold to work on it, so it is tarped up in the yard with the wings off and
covered. Right now I'm going to order what I can see- tires, exhaust springs,
and whatever I can easily identify. I am going to see if the former owner knows
who the original owner is. No manuals or records came with it. The owner
was kind of casual about it. Any comments at all would be a big help. They delivered
price was $5,100.
Thanks
Bill Sullivan
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Photos |
From: DAquaNut@aol.com
................
Nice pics of the fly! What is the difference in weight with the simonini
instead of the 447 Rotax? Do you have to have an electric starter. How many
hours do you have on the simonini ? I am contemplating putting a 37 HP
1/2 vw from Scott Cassler on my Fire fly, but I am nor sure how to get in
contact with the fellow mentioned on the list who is currently flying with
one on his Firefly?
................
Ed,
Yes I got it on for the same weight as the Rotax 447. Yes, I have electric
start. I am too old to manually pull or prop start anything. The battery
is what you see behind my head up under the tube that supports the engine
mount holders. This keeps the cables short and the weight down. The Victor
has 156+ hours on it.
About the 1/2 VW, get a hold of Herb at herbgh@juno.com. He has the name
and the telephone number.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Photos |
> About the 1/2 VW, get a hold of Herb at herbgh@juno.com. He has the name
> and the telephone number.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H/Ed D:
I didn't pay much attention to the FS with 1/2 VW at the Kolb Homecoming,
except to watch it fly. It seemed to fly well. However, Homer spent some
time with the owner. Homer commented to me that the engine produced an
excessive amount of vibration. I recall seeing Homer helping the owner hold
down the FS while he ran up the 1/2 VW.
Might be worthwhile to check into possible vibration problem.
john h
mkIII
Message 4
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Hi William,
Congratulations on getting a Firestar. They are great flyers and a whole lot of
fun.
With the way you described your plane it sounds like you will have a bit of work
to do before it is safe to fly. Did it come with an "N" number and airworthiness
certificate ?
If Yes you are set. If No then my first suggestion is to weigh the plane immediately
to see if it falls within the limitations of ultralight operation, I.E.
254lbs maximum weight is usually the most critical of the limitations.
If the plane exceeds this weight buy allot (Say 20 lbs. or more) you will need
to find out why fast. If there is some widget on the plane not necessary for
flight that can be removed easily to get you under the weight limit you may be
okay.
If there is no obvious accessory or part to be removed, and it is way over weight
you will have to move quickly if you want to get it registered as an Experimental
Light Sport Aircraft with the FAA.
The Expiration Date for this process is January 31, 2008!
I would highly recommend that you initiate the registration process as soon as
possible to cover your bases.
Good luck with your Firestar
Carlos G
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159783#159783
Message 5
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Mike, I spent six days, nine hours a day with Eric Tucker and came away with
a deep respect for the depth of his knowledge of the Rotax product line. I
imagine John Hauck would say the same.
Per the Rotax Installation Manual 13.6 page 13-5," The oil pressure must
rise within 10 seconds to at least 2 bar (30 psi)" This is not the time
limit to begin to show a pressure rise, as you claim, this is the time limit
to reach minimum operating oil pressure.
On new 4 stroke engines regardless of their usage, I turn them over with the
spark plugs out until I get oil pressure. Why risk a dry start when all it
takes to insure against it is a little extra time.
Why is this so important and the time so short to see pressure on a Rotax
engine? Refer to the Rotax Maintenance Manual II (Heavy Maintenance) Form
Sheet for cylinders and pistons, 3)Grading and clearance: the clearance
limits for piston to cylinder wall is .0000" to .0009" the absolute wear
limit is .0051" for "red" pistons, "green pistons give you an extra .0001"
for maximum clearance, but still specify .0000" as the minimum and the wear
limit is the same. Consider that a human hair is .003" to .004" thick. These
engines are tight. There isn't much room in there for assembly lube,
basically it fills the hatch marks from the diamond honing process and
that's it.
As I said, Rotax engines are built like fine jewelry, and require more
attention to detail because of it.
There are a lot of less than honest people out there making all sorts of
claims about what they sell. Just watch the engines that come up on eBay.
One of our EAA chapter members bought a 503 with a "new" crank in the recent
overhaul. There was no mention of the 3" long weld on the bottom of the of
the crankcase. Or the seizure marks on the exhaust side of the pistons. It
was junk and the seller was long gone with his money.
A seller who balks at reasonable requests to verify what he claims is not
worth dealing with in the first place, IMHO.
Rick
On Jan 22, 2008 1:09 AM, JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > As an example, the engine we worked on with Eric Tucker had been run for
> 10 seconds without oil pressure and had a nice big hole in the case where a
> rod made a hasty departure. The owner had hooked the oil lines up backward.
> > Last, make the owner pay for all evaluation work. If he balks, be very
> suspicious.
> >
> > Rick
> >
>
>
> 10 seconds without oil pressure is just at the limits for the 912-s after
> an oil change, but still in limits. I don't believe for a second that a rod
> went through the case in just 10 seconds of being started without an oil
> supply. According to the Rotax manual, 10 seconds is where you shut down
> the engine if you don't get an oil pressure rise.
>
> Someone either got their 3rd hand story wrong, or downright lied about
> what happened there. Either way, if you knew much about the Rotax 912
> engine, you should have known this instead of passing along and putting
> into writing a BS story that is so obviously wrong.
>
> As far as the tests on the engine, if I were selling the engine, I would
> not pay to have hardness tested, oil tested, etc. etc. Especially if the
> price were good, I would tell you to go take a hike and sell to a buyer that
> was not such a pain in the butt to deal with. Nothing worse than to do
> business with someone that makes unreasonable demands.
>
> Just like buying an airplane, if you want to get the engine inspected, it
> is customary for the BUYER to pay the mechanic to do the inspection. If I
> were the seller, would not pay for inspections, just to have the buyer
> change his mind and leave me with the inspection bill.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
> !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159712#159712
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) |
Tom,
I'm so glad you have cleared up this issue for the list. For years
I've been telling other pilots that maintaining constant airspeed in a
turn, even steep turns, while descending at idle/no power increases
descent rate but not the stall speed. I discovered this myself while
practicing the "turn back to airport" practice at safe altitudes with
sudden loss of engine power. I do this on every "new to me" airplane
so I know how much time and altitude it costs me to do that. Once that
is determined I know before take-off what AGL altitude I need as a
minimum to even consider turning back in the event of a power failure
during initial climb. The slower your airspeed (but safely above stall
speed/aoa) the faster you can turn with least altitude loss. As you
noted, coordinating the turn is very important to avoid nasty surprises.
I've attached an image of a table I created showing the time to make a
270 degree turn at various bank angles and airspeeds. It also gives
the amount of altitude loss assuming a 600 fpm descent rate.
Thom in Buffalo
Message 7
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| Subject: | Kolb-List Digest: 912 Engine |
I buy and sell all kinds of Engines and I do ALL the tests I can so I know
the buyer is getting a good Deal ...
There is somthing to look for on any 4 stroke Rotax and that is marks where
the valve springs are fretting in the heads (Ido not remember why phil says
this happens ) but it is a Very BAD thing and the engine needs a TOTAL OVERHAUL
if this is evedent !
Also never ever rotate the engine backwards !
Dave
**************
Start the year
off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Photos |
Hey All
Yep! The half vw ,even with a good balance job still has pistons that go in
and out together..I did not think the vibration was excessive . More than a
Rotax however.. :-) My Global versions are not well balanced and run in a tractor
airplane(N3 Pup) .. It is necessary to shock mount the instruments . New
motor mounts and a balance job of the rotating and reciprocating parts is in
the plans.
The half vw at the show was a hasty configuration, since the engine was on loan
from a fellow in East Tenn. Normally installed on a firefly..
IMHO.. VW's and half vw's are decent "poor folk" alternatives to the more expensive
power plants..
An up side is that my N3 could fly a 200 mile round trip to the Ky state EAA
gathering without taking on additional fuel(illegal at abt 8 gals :-) ) .. my
Firefly required a top off at Glasgow,Ky where I met Mike Thomason in his Fly,
and more fuel at the state park..topped off again at Glasgow and flew home to
Scottsville,Ky..
Additionally, two Piston,Jug sets, including wrist pins and rings is about 100
dollars. Hard to spend more than 200 bucks for a full over haul.. doing it yourself..
Herb
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Photos |
Ed
My fault...I called Keith and failed to clear it with him. If he is willing,
I will sent his phone number to you...
That said...the half vw list at Yahoo is a place to get the info that you need
to have a successful installation.. The engine mount is the
only thing specific to the Firefly or Firestar.. Herb
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) |
At 04:07 PM 1/21/2008, The Kuffels wrote:
>...The source of the worry that "increased bank angle means increased
>stall speed" is the diagram in the AIM, copied in every student pilot
>ground school book, showing increased bank angle equals increased load
>factor equals increased stall speed. The flaw in this diagram is
>insufficient emphasis that it only applies *if you maintain constant
>altitude*. Look at the vectors in the diagram. The total load increases
>to keep the vertical component constant (i.e. constant altitude)...
It's not only valid at constant altitude, but constant acceleration (or
rather, unaccelerated flight, but not necessarily level unaccelerated
flight). You don't descend because you have less lift; you START decending
because you (momentarily) have less lift, causing the aircraft to
accelerate downward... then as your speed (or AOA) increases you stabilize
in a descent (an unaccelerated descent, where lift (or the vertical
component of lift) again equals the weight of the aircraft.
If you are in a coordinated turn in either level flight OR a constant
descent, your g-load will correspond to the bank angle in the normal manner
(1.4g for 45=B0, 2g for 60=B0, etc.), and you stall speed increases in the
normal manner. Any less g's and you are either accelerating downward, i.e.
increasing your rate of descent, or your turn is not coordinated (i.e. ball
not centered, as in a slipping turn).
>Safety statistics say the misconception that increasing bank angle always
>means increasing stall speed kills a lot more people than holding a
>constant airspeed turing a turn. For example, look at turn-to-final spin
>fatalities. As a student pilot I kept trying to sneak the airplane around
>to final with excess rudder...
It's not a misconception about bank angle versus stall speed that kills
them, it's being more afraid of increased bank angles than they are of a
skidding turn at low speed.
-Dana
--
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, for if you hit a man
with a plowshare, he'll know he's been hit!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) |
You guys keep talking about overuse of the rudder.
>From my experience flying Kolbs, once in the air there is very little
use of rudder. The Kolb model aircraft are aileron airplanes. For the
most part, they don't much care if they are trimmed up or not, they
still fly the same way.
I can turn a Kolb on a wing tip, the rudder is not involved. It is all
aileron and elevator.
Takes a tad of rudder to maintain a coordinated turn, but not enough to
really be aware of.
True, they do not like to fly below stall speed, no matter what bank
angle is being used.
If I am in doubt, I always carry a little extra airspeed. I also keep a
continuous cross check on my airspeed indicator. I know, some you more
experienced pilots don't need one, but I fly with mine.
As far as engine outs and making your forced landing area, be it
airstrip or a deer feeding patch in the woods or a Walmart parking lot,
if I keep the touch down point on a spot on my windshield and it does
not move up or down, I am going to make my spot. If the spot moves down
the windshield, I am going to overshoot. If it moves up the windshield,
I am going to come up short. We learned to shoot approaches in Primary
Rotary Wing Training in the Army this way. John W will have to help me
now. I can not remember for sure, but.........I think once we turned
base from downwind we obtained our approach speed, kept it constant, and
maintained our approach angle with collective (the up and down stick).
john h
mkIII
For example, look at turn-to-final spin fatalities. As a student
pilot I kept trying to sneak the airplane around to final with excess
rudder...
-Dana
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) |
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> From my experience flying Kolbs, once in the air there is very little use of
rudder. The Kolb model aircraft are aileron airplanes. For the most part,
they don't much care if they are trimmed up or not, they still fly the same way.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
This is one thing I love about the Kolb, it turns with ailerons like a " Real "
airplane. Most ultralight guys use a whole bunch of rudder when they first get
in my Kolb, I tell them to keep their feet on the floor, and then try a turn.
They are very surprised to find a plane of this class that does not require
a whole bunch of rudder to turn.
This makes the Kolb a heck of a lot more enjoyable and nicer to fly than the more
primitive designs ( Im not trying to knock the flying qualities of the Qucksilvers,
Challengers, etc. ) Wait a minute.... yes I am !!!
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159892#159892
Message 13
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Per the Rotax Installation Manual 13.6 page 13-5," The oil pressure must rise
within 10 seconds to at least 2 bar (30 psi)"
>
>
Rotax is saying you have 10 seconds to get to minimum oil pressure. If you get
no oil pressure rise at all, or if you just get some, you must shut down withing
10 seconds. What Rotax is NOT saying is that you must shut down earlier
with no rise at all, they are saying you have 10 seconds PERIOD.
Its written in very plain English. I take them at their word, and am not trying
to read something extra into it like you are...
Given that, 10 seconds is within limits, and I don't believe for a second that
a 912-S is going to throw a rod 10 seconds after startup just because there was
no oil pressure.
I dont care who you spent a week with, or what you have studied, this is just not
going to happen according to the Rotax Maintenance manual.
It is pretty obvious to me, as it should have been to you, someone lied, or got
their stories mixed up somewhere. Don't believe everything you hear.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159895#159895
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) |
Dana, all,
I'm trying to shut up about this topic since it has been beaten
to death. Still I'm compelled to comment where I think Dana has
misunderstood what I said.
<< "increased bank angle means increased stall speed"
It's not only valid at constant altitude, but constant
acceleration (or rather, unaccelerated flight, but not
necessarily level unaccelerated flight). You don't descend
because you have less lift; you START decending because you
(momentarily) have less lift, causing the aircraft to accelerate
downward... >>
Actually, you start and continue descending because the vertical
component of your constant 1g lift vector is less. The
horizontal component correspondingly increases from zero to
effect the turn.
<< then as your speed (or AOA) increases you stabilize in a
descent >>
But this is exactly what I'm saying *not* to do. Keep your speed
constant, it keeps your total load constant and keeps your stall
margin constant. We are talking about 90 or 180 degree turns
here. In theory your decent rate will continue to increase at
constant airspeed in a bank. In practice the increased vertical
component of drag slows the increase in decent rate and things
remain nicely stable on rollout. Doing 60 degree bank turns for
a full circle or more will make the vertical situation
interesting but that is not the problem we are discussing. Go
out and fly it for yourself.
<< If you are in a coordinated turn in either level flight OR a
constant descent, your g-load will correspond to the bank angle >>
But that is not what I am saying. Maintain a constant *airspeed*
and you then maintain a constant wing loading which maintains a
constant stall margin. Go out and fly it for yourself.
<< It's not a misconception about bank angle versus stall speed
that kills them, it's being more afraid of increased bank angles
than they are of a skidding turn at low speed. >>
And what makes us afraid of increased bank angles at low speeds
at pattern altitudes is the AIM diagram and associated training.
Go out and fly it for yourself.
Tom Kuffel
Whitefish, MT
Building Original FireStar
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick Approaches ( Holes in the sky) |
At 12:43 AM 1/23/2008, you wrote:
>
>Dana, all,
>
>I'm trying to shut up about this topic since it has been beaten to
>death. Still I'm compelled to comment
I should show you guys what you can do with the engine off & vg's &
no one watching.
But - I would get in trouble---------I'm legal now after 24 yrs.
Like they say in the song. "Dance like no one is watching".
I've got a one-seater - and an "iPod" tied into my helmet.
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