---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/19/08: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:54 AM - Re: The Kolb drop is a STALL (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 2. 02:42 AM - Re: The Kolb drop is a STALL (Tony Oldman) 3. 03:38 AM - Trailer for Mark III (flykolb) 4. 05:22 AM - Re: Trailer for Mark III (grantr) 5. 05:37 AM - Re: The Kolb drop (JetPilot) 6. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Eugene Zimmerman) 7. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Eugene Zimmerman) 8. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 9. 06:43 AM - Re: The Kolb drop (lucien) 10. 07:26 AM - Re: The Kolb drop is a STALL (Vic Peters) 11. 07:48 AM - Firestar Project (william sullivan) 12. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Dana Hague) 13. 09:47 AM - Re: Firestar project (JetPilot) 14. 10:28 AM - Re: Firestar project (JetPilot) 15. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (robert bean) 16. 01:58 PM - Firestar Project (william sullivan) 17. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (possums) 18. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Dana Hague) 19. 03:26 PM - Re: Firestar Project (Aaron Gustafson) 20. 04:25 PM - Re: Firestar Project (Dana Hague) 21. 06:17 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (N27SB@aol.com) 22. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Trailer for Mark III (flykolb) 23. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Russ Kinne) 24. 06:37 PM - Re: All pilots should feel this out, at a safe altitude. (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 25. 07:00 PM - Re: Firestar Project (DAquaNut@aol.com) 26. 07:27 PM - Southern Hospitality (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 27. 08:14 PM - Re: Southern Hospitality (Bob Noyer) 28. 10:32 PM - Building your own gear legs (Vern) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:27 AM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The Kolb drop is a STALL If all you guy's would just learn the correct terminology for Stalls and recognize when your airplane is near a stall then you wouldn't have any drop or sudden stop so until you learn how to fly your airplane correctly could we have a more interesting conversation that could be helpful to others on this list other than scaring the crap out of some people here that haven't had the opportunity to fly a KOLB yet. Ellery in Maine do not archive **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:23 AM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The Kolb drop is a STALL With you on this one. 300+ hours on a MK111 and somewhat confused with this Kolb drop thing. The Kolb arrives on the ground just fine. You do not need to wheel it on or fly it onto the ground, it will flare and arrive just fine without bending anything.Would have to be the most forgiving and simple thing to fly that I have had the pleasure of flying.For those that have not had the pleasure yet please do at the first oppertunity and make your own judgement. I do some what enjouy the banter that goes on here and have learned a lot from some very experianced Kolb flyers. You just gota sort out the bits that sound right to you and fit with your own experiances and sometimes to re evaluate you ideas .Keep it up my friends and may you all fly safely. Tony >From Down under Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- , From: ElleryWeld@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:51 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The Kolb drop is a STALL If all you guy's would just learn the correct terminology for Stalls and recognize when your airplane is near a stall then you wouldn't have any drop or sudden stop so until you learn how to fly your airplane correctly could we have a more interesting conversation that could be helpful to others on this list other than scaring the crap out of some people here that haven't had the opportunity to fly a KOLB yet. Ellery in Maine do not archive -> p; - List Contribution Web Site ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:10 AM PST US From: "flykolb" Subject: Kolb-List: Trailer for Mark III Hey guys and gals, Could someone tell me the minimum size for a trailer for the Mark III Classic? Width, length, height? Thanks Jim ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Trailer for Mark III From: "grantr" 8.5X24 is the right size for my MKIII classic The door opening is 75 inches tall and it just clears it a ivo 3 blade on a 503. 82 inches between the wheel wells and 24' 4' long inside. 94 inch door opening width and 96 inches wide. It would probably go in a 7 wide trailer. I would also get one a little taller if i ever got another trailer. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164996#164996 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop From: "JetPilot" Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I can let students get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing than in a Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other aircraft and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger gear, and partly to do much more forgiving aerodynamics. The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to correct this bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon landing. VG's do not solve this problem entirely, but my Kolb MK III is not anywhere near as critical in landing as it was, and it does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as it did without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what some may say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings much easier and less critical in my Kolb, and that is a great thing. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164998#164998 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:33 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop On Feb 19, 2008, at 8:34 AM, JetPilot wrote: > Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. < Smile > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:13 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop On Feb 19, 2008, at 8:34 AM, JetPilot wrote: > If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! If you are not yet an idiot ,,,,,,,,,, your ego in not the size it could be !!! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:37 AM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop there must be some here then, not pointing any fingers at anyone special just making a statement Ellery do not archive In a message dated 2/19/2008 9:18:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ez@embarqmail.com writes: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman On Feb 19, 2008, at 8:34 AM, JetPilot wrote: > Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. < Smile > **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:15 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop From: "lucien" JetPilot wrote: > Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I can let students get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing than in a Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other aircraft and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger gear, and partly to do much more forgiving aerodynamics. > > The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to correct this bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon landing. VG's do not solve this problem entirely, but my Kolb MK III is not anywhere near as critical in landing as it was, and it does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as it did without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what some may say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings much easier and less critical in my Kolb, and that is a great thing. > > Mike Don't mean to jump in, but this is describing more a general characteristic of (comparatively speaking) high-drag/low-inertia designs like the Kolb and not really a unique characteristic of the Kolb. In fact, I found the FS II I had required energy management techniques virtually identical to the other UL/UL-like designs I've flown over the years. The closest analog for me was my quicksilver (MX Super); it flew so close to that plane that basically, as soon as I got used to the ground handling and tailwheel aspect, I was off going around the pattern practicing my wheel landings. As for the "drop", which is indeed only a euphemism for stalling the wing more than a couple inches above the ground, the FSII behaved virtually identically to my quicksilver in this respect. On the quick, of course, you're off to the hangar to replace the axle and possibly the landing gear down tubes at that point, but the Kolb is a little more durable, especally mine was because it had large tundra-like tires on the mains. My fun racer trike with the double surface wing would also exhibit the "drop" as it had a similar fairly abrupt stall break and could be subject to the hazard of the "drop". But I never broke anything on the trike either. It could have have been that I'm just so used to flying low-inertia designs that I remained well clear of hazardous "drops" as best I could (I also wheel landed the FSII about 95% of the time and only attempted 3 points in very calm weather)..... In any case, I found the Kolb gave no surprises, at least not to me, compared to any other similar planes I"d flown. I can't think of any kind of situation where the Kolb would lead to bent gear legs more (or less!) than any other light aircraft. As for training, the low-inertia aspect is the hardest one for pilots transitioning from general aviation to get a handle on. Controlling the plane in the air, takeoffs and so on are pretty easy, but landings (particularly the energy management part) can yield a pretty sweaty and cursing student for several hours at least. Don't ask me how I know this is the case. Finally, FWIW, I believe I recall being able to get the C150 to do the "drop", but it required a low pass with no flaps in the flare attitude with progressively more back elevator and reducing throttle. The titan tornado will also do the drop, but it' stall AOA is also very high in the flare and it also requires a lot of coaxing (and stupidity) to get it to do it (and generally you bang the tailwheel down in the process). LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165011#165011 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:51 AM PST US From: "Vic Peters" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: The Kolb drop is a STALL Hey Ellery Are you talkin about me? I'm not scared of landing it's the crashing that might bother me but mostly will I have to wear those panties others have mentioned? Now that's scary. On another note if you'ze guys watched the Science channel on how insects that shouldn't be able to fly do and well. They explain that some ride their own vortices (spell chk's out) which creates a low pressure area. So Vg's do 2 things, help control separation and add lift. Did you need your prop bal. back? Vic Mkxtra unlanded by me If all you guy's would just learn the correct terminology for Stalls and recognize when your airplane is near a stall then you wouldn't have any drop or sudden stop so until you learn how to fly your airplane correctly could we have a more interesting conversation that could be helpful to others on this list other than scaring the crap out of some people here that haven't had the opportunity to fly a KOLB yet. Ellery in Maine ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:44 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar Project The first wing has been patched and painted. As usual, everybody guessed wrong on the paint chip chart. Oh, well- it's red. I painted it with the foam roller, as advised, and it came out with a very rough finish- like hundreds of little bumps. I think I should not have added thinner when rolling it. No runs or sags, though. I will try something different on the second wing. The rear wing attachment point has a rather massive removable lug- 7 ounces on the fish scale- that resembles a Chevy wrist pin with a casting on the end. The original wings have a piece of tubing welded to another-apparently one piece angling through the wing. About 1/8"wall where the u-joint bolts on. I have all kinds of stock to grind away, and it will still leave double the safety margin. I can then use the original u-joint. For anyone folding Kolb wings- my wings have a built-in jack socket near the end to hold the wing up while assembling. A spring loaded 72" shower curtain rod from Wal-Mart fits right over it, when I took the rubber off the end. One hand expandable, too. I will make a male end for it to fit inside the socket. It spins open and closed by itself, and has a spring loaded cushion inside. I was throwing the old one away when I walked by the wing and noticed it. My wife says a new one is about $11. Bill Sullivan Firestar ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:17 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop At 08:34 AM 2/19/2008, JetPilot wrote: >Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if >very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training >aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing... All this talk makes me wonder... how many of the people on this list came from a GA background, and learned to fly in a Cessna or similar, and how many came from an ultralight background? I'd bet it's only the Cessna drivers that have problems with the so called "Kolb quit", which is common to all ultralights (I know a MLIII isn't an ultralight, but it's certainly descended from one). My old Taylorcraft required me to start my flare before I even got over the runway threshold, if I didn't want to float half way down the runway. This gave me some trouble at first when I got back into flying in a Quicksilver, which like a Kolb, has to be flown right down to the ground. After a few hours in the Quick, my Kolb gave me no trouble at all. This is nothing new; Homer knew it well. From the original UltraStar manual: "Many airplane pilots have flown the UltraStar for the first time and had no difficulties. "However, if pilots do have any trouble ut is usually in the landing department. All proceeds well until it its time to flare for landing; a typical airplane has much more weight than an ultralight, and has much less drag than a typical ultralight does. An airplane comes in twice as fast as a typical ultralight. An airplane therefore has many times the energy to dissipate than a typical ultralight has, and less drag to help dissipate it. A typical landing flare in an airplane will start much higher than an ultralight because it has plenty of momentum to dissipate before touching down. "Thus when an airplane pilot gets into an ultralight, what can happen is that the [airplane oriented] pilot tends to start to flare too high in the air, he then stalls 10 to 15 feet above the runway and lands quite hard which usually will collapse the landing gear... the safest way to avoid this is to carry some power... you should fly the UltraStar onto the ground..." -Dana -- "If yew ain't livin' on th' edge, yer takin' up too much room!" ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar project From: "JetPilot" William, You do not want your wings to be very different from one another. Having wings that are slightly different could cause a condition where one wing stalls earlier than the other, or behaves differently in flight, neither would be good. In other words, a stall could turn into a spin if both wings are not the same. On a Kolb, I would guess that just a difference in the texture of the paint between one wing and another will not make a noticeable difference, but I am not sure. Just be careful when you test fly it. As a general rule, keep the wings as close to each other in properties as you can. One other thing I meant to tell you a while ago before the discussion got sidetracked, on your weight, most non professional, non digital scales have large errors at ultralight weights, 15 pounds or 6 % off would be a common error in most scales at the weights you are dealing with. I would recommend you find, or borrow a good digital scale and know exactly what the weight really is before doing to much work on weight reduction. Mike Bigelow -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165050#165050 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar project From: "JetPilot" One other thought on your weight. If when all is said and done, you are still slightly overweight, you have a good legal option. You are allowed 24 pounds extra weight if your ultralight is equipped with a BRS. A softpack BRS weighs 18 pounds, now you have an extra legal 6 pounds you can have on your plane. This way, you are safer in two respects, you don't have to shave off structure to the point where your plane becomes structurally weak, and you have the added safety margin of having a BRS. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165059#165059 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:06 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop Dana, sure is true about the Taylorcraft. A great little plane, floats and floats and floats............. My Kolb has a beneficial side however, as when I get an occasional gust just before touchdown that lifts us 10' above the hard stuff. In a more conventional tractor high wing craft a sudden addition of power at this point will rotate the nose up, putting you in a worse attitude unless you (after some misadventures) push the stick forward simultaneously. In the Kolb all this happens automatically when the pusher prop adjusts things quite nicely for you. All old geezers should have a Kolb to fly. BB do not archive On 19, Feb 2008, at 12:38 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > At 08:34 AM 2/19/2008, JetPilot wrote: > >> Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on >> landing if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most >> other training aircraft are not like this, they are much more >> forgiving on landing... > > All this talk makes me wonder... how many of the people on this > list came from a GA background, and learned to fly in a Cessna or > similar, and how many came from an ultralight background? I'd bet > it's only the Cessna drivers that have problems with the so called > "Kolb quit", which is common to all ultralights (I know a MLIII > isn't an ultralight, but it's certainly descended from one). > > My old Taylorcraft required me to start my flare before I even got > over the runway threshold, if I didn't want to float half way down > the runway. This gave me some trouble at first when I got back > into flying in a Quicksilver, which like a Kolb, has to be flown > right down to the ground. After a few hours in the Quick, my Kolb > gave me no trouble at all. > > This is nothing new; Homer knew it well. From the original > UltraStar manual: > "Many airplane pilots have flown the UltraStar for the > first time and had no difficulties. > > "However, if pilots do have any trouble ut is usually in > the landing department. All proceeds well until it its time to > flare for landing; a typical airplane has much more weight than an > ultralight, and has much less drag than a typical ultralight does. > An airplane comes in twice as fast as a typical ultralight. An > airplane therefore has many times the energy to dissipate than a > typical ultralight has, and less drag to help dissipate it. A > typical landing flare in an airplane will start much higher than an > ultralight because it has plenty of momentum to dissipate before > touching down. > > "Thus when an airplane pilot gets into an ultralight, what > can happen is that the [airplane oriented] pilot tends to start to > flare too high in the air, he then stalls 10 to 15 feet above the > runway and lands quite hard which usually will collapse the landing > gear... the safest way to avoid this is to carry some power... you > should fly the UltraStar onto the ground..." > > -Dana > -- > "If yew ain't livin' on th' edge, yer takin' up too much room!" > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:26 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar Project Mike- The wings will be close, but I have to re-do the color coat. It came out "orange peel" in appearance. I think I will try something different on the other wing, to find out what went wrong. Then I'll re-finish the top coat. I do see your point, also relative to the discussion on VG's the last few days. I am new to this, so everyone keep teaching me and forgive my errors. I talked my wife into buying a new digital scale for the "bathroom". At my age, I'll have one of my grandchildren tell me how to use it. I ground and fitted threar attaching lug. It now fits the factory u-joint. Looks good, works great, lots of meat on it- more than the other wing set. Bill Old Firestar ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:24 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop At 12:38 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: >At 08:34 AM 2/19/2008, JetPilot wrote: > >>Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing >>if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other >>training aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing... > >All this talk makes me wonder... how many of the people on this list >came from a GA background, and learned to fly in a Cessna or >similar, and how many came from an ultralight background? I'd bet >it's only the Cessna drivers that have problems with the so called >"Kolb quit", which is common to all ultralights (I know a MLIII >isn't an ultralight, but it's certainly descended from one). I think that's exactly what the problem is. You cannot make a Cessna driver fly a kolb to the ground no matter how many times you tell him. He will always flare too high. Only bending the landing gear will "eventually" convince a GA pilot that it will stop flying when you pull back the throttle and flare a kolb. If they've never flown anything, it is easier. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:46 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop At 01:53 PM 2/19/2008, robert bean wrote: >My Kolb has a beneficial side however, as when I get an occasional gust >just before touchdown that lifts us >10' above the hard stuff. In a more conventional tractor high wing craft >a sudden addition of power at this >point will rotate the nose up, putting you in a worse attitude unless you >(after some misadventures) push the >stick forward simultaneously. >In the Kolb all this happens automatically when the pusher prop adjusts >things quite nicely for you. Except in my UltraStar... the engine is much lower than the other Kolb designs, so it behaves like a more conventional airplane. -Dana -- The two most common elements in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:54 PM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar Project For doing small paint touchups and spraying just about anything there is a little cheap system available at most auto parts stores. It is called a "PREVAIL SPAYER" http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_PaintProsUSA_ff80808117344aab01175581fc 276445.html?gclid=CMSlxIWy0ZECFQkqIgoduWdOzw. It is a small (less than one cup) glass jar with a replaceable aerosol unit that screws on. I have been using them for 37 years. Aaron G ----- Original Message ----- From: william sullivan I painted it with the foam roller, as advised, and it came out with a very rough finish- like hundreds of little bumps. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:23 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar Project At 06:23 PM 2/19/2008, Aaron Gustafson wrote: >For doing small paint touchups and spraying just about anything there is a >little cheap system available at most auto parts stores. It is called a >"PREVAIL SPAYER" >http://store.fastcommerce.com/cat_PaintProsUSA_ff80808117344aab01175581fc276445.html?gclid=CMSlxIWy0ZECFQkqIgoduWdOzw. >It is a small (less than one cup) glass jar with a replaceable aerosol >unit that screws on. I have been using them for 37 years... I have a bigger sprayer too, but for some small repairs I recently did on my UltraStar, I used a small Badger airbrush (no compressor, uses a can of Freon as propellent). -Dana -- But I don't have an "any key" on my computer! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:53 PM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. That's it, I've had it, time to unplug for a while. Steve In a message dated 2/19/2008 8:37:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, orcabonita@hotmail.com writes: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft are not like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I can let students get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing than in a Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other aircraft and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger gear, and partly to do much more forgiving aerodynamics. The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to correct this bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon landing. VG's do not solve this problem entirely, but my Kolb MK III is not anywhere near as critical in landing as it was, and it does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as it did without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what some may say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings much easier and less critical in my Kolb, and that is a great thing. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164998#164998 **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:09 PM PST US From: "flykolb" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Trailer for Mark III Thanks for the quick reply. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "grantr" Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 8:19 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Trailer for Mark III > > 8.5X24 is the right size for my MKIII classic The door opening is 75 inches tall and it just clears it a ivo 3 blade on a 503. > > 82 inches between the wheel wells and 24' 4' long inside. 94 inch door opening width and 96 inches wide. > > It would probably go in a 7 wide trailer. I would also get one a little taller if i ever got another trailer. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164996#164996 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:58 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop I hate to see blame thrown where it shouldn't be thrown. Of course it shouldn't be called the "Kolb drop"; no need blaming the Kolb design for a perfectly normal flight occurrence. It's simply a stall, and ALL wings will stall. All pilots should feel this out, at a safe altitude. Basically, the heavier the aircraft, the higher speed at which it will stall, and the earlier you should start your flare. (BTW, it's 'flare', not flair). I fly would a twin Otter or DC-3 much differently than I would a Cub or Champ. Huge weight difference. Wing design is also a factor. Wing 'washout' or 'twist' reduces the abruptness of the stall, delays it and makes it gentler. Worst I ever flew was the BD-4, whose wing has NO washout at all. One minute it was flying, then the next second --WHAM ! it was nose-down, headed toward the ground. Scary. They're all similar, but all different. Learn to fly your aircraft!. I'm sure Kolbs are no worse than the others. Just different. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:46 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: All pilots should feel this out, at a safe altitude. I couldn't agree with that any more, Thanks for spelling it out for others to understand Ellery do not archive In a message dated 2/19/2008 9:27:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, russ@rkiphoto.com writes: I hate to see blame thrown where it shouldn't be thrown. Of course it shouldn't be called the "Kolb drop"; no need blaming the Kolb design for a perfectly normal flight occurrence. It's simply a stall, and ALL wings will stall. All pilots should feel this out, at a safe altitude. Basically, the heavier the aircraft, the higher speed at which it will stall, and the earlier you should start your flare. (BTW, it's 'flare', not flair). I fly would a twin Otter or DC-3 much differently than I would a Cub or Champ. Huge weight difference. Wing design is also a factor. Wing 'washout' or 'twist' reduces the abruptness of the stall, delays it and makes it gentler. Worst I ever flew was the BD-4, whose wing has NO washout at all. One minute it was flying, then the next second --WHAM ! it was nose-down, headed toward the ground. Scary. They're all similar, but all different. Learn to fly your aircraft!. I'm sure Kolbs are no worse than the others. Just different. (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:48 PM PST US From: DAquaNut@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar Project In a message dated 2/19/2008 6:26:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, d-m-hague@comcast.net writes: I have a bigger sprayer too, but for some small repairs I recently did on my Ultra Star, I used a small Badger airbrush (no compressor, uses a can of Freon as propellent). -Dana I've done the same thing! Works great! At the hangar where I didn't have a compressor I used a spare tire for the propellant. Ed FF # 62 **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:18 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Kolb-List: Southern Hospitality Not Kolb but fun. Also sure it isn't true. Do not Archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC Atlanta Airport You gotta love this one even if you've never lived in the South. Some of you will enjoy this more than others... Southerners can be so polite! Atlanta ATC: 'Tower to Saudi Air 511 -- You are cleared to land eastbound on runway 9R Saudi Air: 'Thank you Atlanta ATC. Acknowledge cleared to land on infidel's runway 9R - Allah be Praised.' Atlanta ATC: 'Tower to Iran Air 711 --You are cleared to land westbound on runway 9R.' Iran Air: 'Thank you Atlanta ATC. We are cleared to land on infidel's runway 9R. - Allah is Great.' Pause... Saudi Air: ' ATLANTA ATC - ATLANTA ATC' Atlanta ATC: 'Go ahead Saudi Air 511.' Saudi Air: 'YOU HAVE CLEARED BOTH OUR AIRCRAFTS FOR THE SAME RUNWAY GOING IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS. WE ARE ON A COLLISION COURSE. INSTRUCTIONS, PLEASE.' Atlanta ATC: 'Well bless your hearts. And praise Jesus. Y'all be careful now and tell Allah 'Hey' for us -- ' ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:01 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Southern Hospitality Last time I was in/out ATL, twr was very pleasant, but gnd got me lost, twice! 172, not UL, though. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Building your own gear legs From: "Vern" Hello everyone I,m the new guy on the block I own a mark 3 and I want to build new gear legs for her. A little taller and set a little forward. Could you fellows tell me what tubing thickness everyone uses when building 4130 gear legs and where you get them heat treated, cost ect. I sure would appreciate it. Thanks Vern Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165164#165164 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.