Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:33 AM - lurkers and learners (william sullivan)
2. 06:04 AM - AOA (william sullivan)
3. 06:22 AM - Re: Building your own gear legs (John Hauck)
4. 07:21 AM - Re: The Kolb Drop (Jack B. Hart)
5. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb Drop (John Hauck)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: The Kolb drop (jb92563)
7. 09:02 AM - Re: Vg's (David Lucas)
8. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop ()
9. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb Drop (gary aman)
10. 09:24 AM - Re: The Kolb drop (JetPilot)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: Vg's (JetPilot)
12. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (Larry Cottrell)
13. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (Eugene Zimmerman)
14. 12:20 PM - Re: Vg's (jb92563)
15. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (David Key)
16. 12:33 PM - Re: Vg's (jb92563)
17. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (Bob Noyer)
18. 02:35 PM - Re: lurkers and learners (Russ Kinne)
19. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (Russ Kinne)
20. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (Russ Kinne)
21. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (robert bean)
22. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb Drop (possums)
23. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (ross richardson)
24. 04:41 PM - Re: AOA (Steven Green)
25. 05:18 PM - kolb list Re: kolb drop (boyd)
26. 05:24 PM - Re: AOA (Jack B. Hart)
27. 05:43 PM - Re: Building your own gear legs (John Bickham)
28. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (Russ Kinne)
29. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Building your own gear legs (John Hauck)
30. 06:31 PM - pictures from 1st flight of the MK III (grantr)
31. 06:35 PM - Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs (Dana Hague)
32. 06:54 PM - Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs (John Hauck)
33. 07:27 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (DAquaNut@aol.com)
34. 07:49 PM - Re: Re:alcohol and carb jets (DAquaNut@aol.com)
35. 08:33 PM - AOA (william sullivan)
36. 08:37 PM - Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs (Wade Lawicki)
37. 09:28 PM - Re: Building your own gear legs (Vern)
38. 11:19 PM - List related cartoon (R. Hankins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | lurkers and learners |
Grant- I am in worse shape than you are. It's been almost 40 years since I last
flew. I am a retired/disabled (bad back and hands) mechanic who is starting over.
Love the Kolb! Easy to work on, light components, and I love the discussions
between people who are a lot more experienced. The only thing I can contribute
is an open mind. Keep it up, guys!!!
Bill
old FS
do not archive
Message 2
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Can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive, instrument for setting the AOA on my
Firestar? With the wing mounting modification (TNK approved) I have to make
sure I get it close when I drill the hole for the front bracket.
Bill
old FS
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
> I,m the new guy on the block
> Thanks Vern
Hi Vern:
Tell us a little bit about yourself, who, what, when, and where.
I use 1.125 X .125 4130.
Heat treat to RC48.
Here is a metal treating company I have used in the past. They had a plant
in Anniston, AL, last time I had a heat treating requirement, but looks like
they have shut that plant down:
http://www.braddockmt.com/
You can do a Google search for "metal treating" or "heat treating" and come
up with lots of places to get the job done.
I find it much easier to fabricate and fit the gear legs with axle sockets
welded on, wheels aligned and all holes drilled prior to heat treating.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb Drop |
Kolbers,
I wondered about the term Kolb Drop. Is it fair or proper to give Homer
credit for this phenomenon? I checked the FAA Preliminary Accident and
Incident Reports for Feb 19. Out of 38 reports, I found five were listed as
outright crashes while the aircraft was away from an airport. The
transition from the air to the ground and movement on the ground seems to
give pilots a lot of trouble. Eight pilots had trouble keeping their
aircraft aligned properly with the runway which resulted in nose overs,
ground loops, slide offs, hitting snow banks and taxiing problems that
killed several runway marker lights. Birds sacrificed them selves to three
aircraft. And finally, eight pilots impacted their aircraft so hard that
only three could taxi away from the runway. Not one of these aircraft was
listed as a Kolb. These data indicate that it must be more difficult to land
and taxi GA and commercial aircraft than Kolb designed aircraft.
May be Kolb Drop should be redefined as Earth Jump. Earth Jump can be
equally applied to all aircraft with out giving undue credit and it easily
explains away why the earth is not in the correct position when these pilots
flared or were repositioning their aircraft.
All aircraft are equal when they are on the ground and humans are absent.
The snow is slowly falling. Fly safe.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in
the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft.
...............
Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on landing if very good
technique is not used. Cessna and other most other training aircraft are not
like this, they are much more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot
being a little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot would
not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in the Kolb, and as a
CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General aviation aircraft, I can let students
get much further off speed, or flare a lot higher on landing than in a
Kolb, and not bend the gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students
flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other aircraft
and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to stronger gear, and partly
to do much more forgiving aerodynamics.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb Drop |
> May be Kolb Drop should be redefined as Earth Jump. Earth Jump can be
> equally applied to all aircraft with out giving undue credit and it easily
> explains away why the earth is not in the correct position when these
> pilots
> flared or were repositioning their aircraft.
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H:
I like that explanation.
I'm sure Kolb Quit could not be related to pilot technique. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Now that I have finished laughing at all the threads and fuss over a simple stall
I think I'll put in my 2 cents as well.
- Don't stall your Kolb at any height you don't want to drop from.
- Vortex generators would be a fun and helpful addition to your Kolb if you want
to mellow the stall a bit and buy some more time to recover from a misjudged
flair(stall).
- If you don't know what a stall is and how to handle it then its time to visit
a good certified instructor and update your insurance policy before doing any
more piloting.
I think the main problem here is that the Kolb drop is not recognized for what
it really is....the wing quits generating sufficient lift and is stalled....plain
and simple.
The difference between a Kolb and heavier aircraft is that it slows down a lot
quicker, so you do not need to flair as early or as high as with the heavier aircraft.
An extreme example would be the space shuttle landings.....they pitch the shuttle
up to start the flair for landing a half mile away from the intended touch
down point.
Also the Kolb does NOT have shock absorbing landing gear, so you do not want to
subject it to a full stall landing from any height as dropping it in is going
to hurt the Kolb and perhaps the pilot.
Nuff Said....get used to your Kolb and fly it accordingly.
If you keep doing something painfull...then STOP doing it and try something else.
[Rolling Eyes]
--------
Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165224#165224
Message 7
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VG's on one wing . . . . It's been done !
Was talking to a certain KOLB pilot one day at a fly-in and was discussing the
Mklllxtra and the pro's and con's of fitting VG's when this admission came out.
The resulting test stall 'maneuver' was, as he put it, 'very interesting !'
I've just checked a definition of 'maneuver'. It says " A deliberate coordinated
movement requiring dexterity and skill " Not so sure that 'maneuver' is the
correct word now. Yes it was deliberate but I'm not so sure you could call the
event 'coordinated' although it did, no doubt, require 'dexterity and skill'
in the following recovery.
Anyway, the VG's are on both wings now that his curiosity is satisfied, and I got
the distinct impression that he's not going to do that again.
If that particular KOLB pilot (who monitors and occasionally contributes to the
list) wants to post some info on this but still remain anonymous [Wink] , then
please contact me off list and I'll 'cut 'n paste' your reply .
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165227#165227
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
VG's definitely make my Mark III land easier and lighter. I lost around 3 or 4
mph cruise with them. Hopefully, I will find an airspeed that makes good use
of the VG effect and increase my range by lowering the rpms required to give
a slower and more economical cruise. I would like 60 mph at a fuel burn of 2
gallons per hour. Probably the VG effect will not happen until the airspeed lowers
to around 50 mph. Need a wind tunnel.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb Drop |
Maybe a little refresher course on gravity and airspeed would be helpful if they
are having difficulty with the earth jump concept.Someone said the earth sucks
when you get that close to it.
----- Original Message ----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:35:13 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb Drop
-->
Kolb-List
message
posted
by:
"John
Hauck"
<jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
May
be
Kolb
Drop
should
be
redefined
as
Earth
Jump.
Earth
Jump
can
be
>
equally
applied
to
all
aircraft
with
out
giving
undue
credit
and
it
easily
>
explains
away
why
the
earth
is
not
in
the
correct
position
when
these
>
pilots
>
flared
or
were
repositioning
their
aircraft.
>
Jack
B.
Hart
FF004
Jack
H:
I
like
that
explanation.
I'm
sure
Kolb
Quit
could
not
be
related
to
pilot
technique.
;-)
john
h
mkIII
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Seems many are missing the point in this thread, the reasons for the Kolb Drop
are well known, and with proper landing techniques, it can be dealt with.
The more important point is that VG"s make the Kolb Drop much less severe. Pilots
are human, no one lands perfectly all the time. VG's can make the difference
between bent gear, and just a less than perfect landing. I would much rather
have plane that is more forgiving on landing, rather than one that probably
result in damage the first time I flare a bit high.
It is obvious that the people that are saying VG's don't make landings in a Kolb
much more docile are the people that dont have VG's.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165229#165229
Message 11
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I have also gotten some private emails for information about VG's from people that
want to install them, and I will respect their privacy.
The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of individuals
has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group bashing on this list
that people are now afraid to post good information on Kolbs. I cant say I
blame people for not wanting to post information that this group does not like,
just look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal attacks and nasty
posts are quietly ignored and supported by this group. If you disagree with
one of the members of this small group, there is a quick negative public response
by them. There is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a
standard of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone is
saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
The fact that people are now afraid to post good and accurate information on Kolbs
here on the list speaks very poorly for this group.
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165232#165232
Message 12
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----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of
> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group
> bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post good information
> on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting to post information
> that this group does not like, just look at the two nasty responses I got
> yesterday that were nothing more than nasty and personal attacks, and were
> quietly supported.
>
> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal attacks
> and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this group. If you
> disagree with one of the members of this small group, there is a quick
> negative public response by them. There is not on this list of keeping
> things civil, there is a standard of keeping posts civil, unless some
> people don't like what someone is saying, then personal attacks and nasty
> posts are tolerated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the plane that
John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built myself using the
formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this list long ago when VG's
first appeared on this list. The stall on this Firestar has dropped to 32
MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I
don't think I lost any speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly
while flaring. I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I
installed the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being dishonest or
attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose to use them. For what
its worth John is a much better pilot than I am, more experience, more time
generally adds up to better skills. As for the VG flight test that occurred
between John and Richard, I am afraid that it was not a very valid test.
John did his considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that
he could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more comfortable in
flying that close to another airplane.
Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not everyone
sees the same answer to the same question. Where the problem shows up with
you Mike is quite frankly your choice of words. Every time that "Idiot" or
"plain stupid" shows up in one of your messages, the meaning is lost, every
thing is lost except the knowledge that we who are reading it and might have
a divergent view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a personal
attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like assholes, every one has
one and few see the need for two. Lighten up a bit!
Larry C
Message 13
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On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:40 PM, JetPilot wrote:
> If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Hey guys
If you have not yet created an atmosphere of intimidation, and group
bashing on this list your ego is not yet as inflated as it could be.
Message 14
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Ohh my god......BAD VERY BAD idea to put VG's on one wing only.
That is a sure way to get someone hurt or worse!!!
What do you think would happen if one wing stalled before the other...say on the
landing flair?????
Can anyone say SPIN?!!!!
Geez, there are some people who find a straight forward stall to be a problem,
so for gods sake don't suggest they might survive a spin at low altitude.......Yikers!!!!!
Also, think about this.....one wing develops full lift(VG's) on takeoff before
the other is even flying.....nice roll to the un-VG'd wing......maybe even all
the way inverted if your not reacting fast enough.
Or how about the unequal lift causing the need for constant roll correction .....better
get to the gym and work those biceps.
NO nothing good can come of VG's on one wing only!
Please don't try it!
--------
Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165253#165253
Message 15
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just look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
I'd say "quietly praised" in this case.
> From: lcottrell@fmtcblue.com> To: kolb-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: K
olb-List: Re: Vg's> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:08:46 -0700> > --> Kolb-List
message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>> > > ----- Ori
ginal Message ----- > From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>> >> > The b
igger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of > > individua
ls has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group > > bashing on
this list that people are now afraid to post good information > > on Kolbs
. I cant say I blame people for not wanting to post information > > that th
is group does not like, just look at the two nasty responses I got > > yest
erday that were nothing more than nasty and personal attacks, and were > >
quietly supported.> >> > If you agree with this small " Clique " of individ
uals, personal attacks > > and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supporte
d by this group. If you > > disagree with one of the members of this small
group, there is a quick > > negative public response by them. There is not
on this list of keeping > > things civil, there is a standard of keeping po
sts civil, unless some > > people don't like what someone is saying, then p
ersonal attacks and nasty > > posts are tolerated.> -----------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------> > I will try, probably in vain,
but try I will! Mike, I have the plane that > John H flew with the VG's. Th
ey are ones that I built myself using the > formula that Howard Shackleford
presented to this list long ago when VG's > first appeared on this list. T
he stall on this Firestar has dropped to 32 > MPH from 46MPH. Straight and
level at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I > don't think I lost any speed
, but I sure increased the time that I can fly > while flaring. I like it,
a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I > installed the VG's. John doe
sn't see the need to do that to his plane. I > don't have a problem with th
at! I don't think that he is being dishonest or > attempting to say that I
am a sissy because I choose to use them. For what > its worth John is a muc
h better pilot than I am, more experience, more time > generally adds up to
better skills. As for the VG flight test that occurred > between John and
Richard, I am afraid that it was not a very valid test. > John did his cons
iderable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that > he could have
pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more comfortable in > flying tha
t close to another airplane.> > Where the problem shows up is when people c
annot accept that not everyone > sees the same answer to the same question.
Where the problem shows up with > you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
words. Every time that "Idiot" or > "plain stupid" shows up in one of your
messages, the meaning is lost, every > thing is lost except the knowledge
that we who are reading it and might have > a divergent view have been disr
espected. If these same views were expressed > face to face, I suspect that
you might receive a bit more of a personal > attack than a verbal one. Opi
nions are a lot like assholes, every one has > one and few see the need for
========================> _
===========> > >
Message 16
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Is there a thread in the forum for making/installing the VG's?
I was wondering how they are made, how they are attatched to the Polyfiber? and
where on the wing chord are they located for optimal effect?
Also interested if anyone has done an oil flow test on the wing to get a better
idea of what the air is doing normally and around the VG's.
It would certainly confirm where to place the VG's if nothing else.
I suspect nobody has volunteered to get their wing oily yet....I don't blame them.
I also know of some other type of Turbulators that can substancially improve wing
performance, more aimed at gliders, however may work on a Kolb wing as well.
--------
Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165254#165254
Message 17
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Ray, ck Archives.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: lurkers and learners |
GOOD ON YOU, BILL/OLD FS!!
WAY TO GO!
KEEP LOVING THE KOLBS
On Feb 20, 2008, at 8:27 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> Grant- I am in worse shape than you are. It's been almost 40 years
> since I last flew. I am a retired/disabled (bad back and hands)
> mechanic who is starting over. Love the Kolb! Easy to work on,
> light components, and I love the discussions between people who are
> a lot more experienced. The only thing I can contribute is an open
> mind. Keep it up, guys!!!
> Bill
> old FS
> do not archive
>
>
Message 19
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DAVID! PLEASE DO!!
On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:00 PM, David Lucas wrote:
>
> VG's on one wing . . . . It's been done !
>
> Was talking to a certain KOLB pilot one day at a fly-in and was
> discussing the Mklllxtra and the pro's and con's of fitting VG's
> when this admission came out. The resulting test stall 'maneuver'
> was, as he put it, 'very interesting !'
>
> I've just checked a definition of 'maneuver'. It says " A
> deliberate coordinated movement requiring dexterity and skill " Not
> so sure that 'maneuver' is the correct word now. Yes it was
> deliberate but I'm not so sure you could call the event
> 'coordinated' although it did, no doubt, require 'dexterity and
> skill' in the following recovery.
>
> Anyway, the VG's are on both wings now that his curiosity is
> satisfied, and I got the distinct impression that he's not going to
> do that again.
>
> If that particular KOLB pilot (who monitors and occasionally
> contributes to the list) wants to post some info on this but still
> remain anonymous [Wink] , then please contact me off list and I'll
> 'cut 'n paste' your reply .
>
> David.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165227#165227
>
>
Message 20
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Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that that
recent post came from 'jetpilot'
Thanks for speaking out
> <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>
>> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of
>> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and
>> group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post good
>> information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting
>> to post information that this group does not like, just look at
>> the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
>> than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
>>
>> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal
>> attacks and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this
>> group. If you disagree with one of the members of this small
>> group, there is a quick negative public response by them. There
>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone
>> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the
> plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built
> myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this
> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on
> this Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level
> at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any
> speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly while flaring.
> I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I installed
> the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
> don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being
> dishonest or attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose
> to use them. For what its worth John is a much better pilot than I
> am, more experience, more time generally adds up to better skills.
> As for the VG flight test that occurred between John and Richard, I
> am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did his
> considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that he
> could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more
> comfortable in flying that close to another airplane.
>
> Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not
> everyone sees the same answer to the same question. Where the
> problem shows up with you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
> words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" shows up in one of
> your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lost except the
> knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a divergent
> view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
> face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a
> personal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like
> assholes, every one has one and few see the need for two. Lighten
> up a bit!
> Larry C
>
>
Message 21
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by this time it might be reasonable to accept that vgs have some
effect. some mods have solely a positive
outcome, some also include a downside. from a personal point of view
I consider vgs to be low on my
list of priorities. my downsides include: inertia (mine), ambition
to do it. More places for the birdcrap to
hide on my wing when I have the rare incentive to wash it. no need
for mo slow on my 1300' strip.
no desire to slow my cruise any further. some doubt that my hefty
mkIII would benefit as well in mph
reduction as Larry's FS.
BB
(dog is recovering nicely)
do not archive
On 20, Feb 2008, at 2:08 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>
>> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of
>> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and
>> group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post good
>> information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting
>> to post information that this group does not like, just look at
>> the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more
>> than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
>>
>> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal
>> attacks and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this
>> group. If you disagree with one of the members of this small
>> group, there is a quick negative public response by them. There
>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone
>> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the
> plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built
> myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this
> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on
> this Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level
> at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any
> speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly while flaring.
> I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I installed
> the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
> don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being
> dishonest or attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose
> to use them. For what its worth John is a much better pilot than I
> am, more experience, more time generally adds up to better skills.
> As for the VG flight test that occurred between John and Richard, I
> am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did his
> considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that he
> could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more
> comfortable in flying that close to another airplane.
>
> Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not
> everyone sees the same answer to the same question. Where the
> problem shows up with you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
> words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" shows up in one of
> your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lost except the
> knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a divergent
> view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
> face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a
> personal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like
> assholes, every one has one and few see the need for two. Lighten
> up a bit!
> Larry C
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb Drop |
At 10:24 AM 2/20/2008, you wrote:
>
>May be Kolb Drop should be redefined as Earth Jump. Earth Jump can be
>equally applied to all aircraft with out giving undue credit and it easily
>explains away why the earth is not in the correct position when these pilots
>flared or were repositioning their aircraft.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Winchester, IN
>
>do not archive
Basic Flying Rules:
1. Try to stay in the middle of the air.
2. Do not go near the edges of it.
3. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of the ground,
buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space.
It is much more difficult to fly there.
Message 23
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Thank you for your comment, I am one of those lurkers & learners with an op
en mind and make my own judgments as to what I think about an idea or sugge
stion. Having both a Mark III 912UL and Challenger II CWS and flying GA & U
L's for 40 on and off years and heard a lot of so called guru's when it com
es to flying. I use to monitor the Challenger site also up till a year or s
o ago. There got to be to much back biting and inflated ego's and the main
intent was lost for the site which was friendship, discuss and learn from o
thers and to help with our experiences. I find it sad that I am seeing the
same thing happening on the Kolb site when there is so many on the site tha
t has good information. I now find my self checking and deleting certain me
mbers with out reading their comments. It may be my loose but enough of the
back biting and inflated ego's. How many people that really wants or needs
information is turned off with this so called mature attitude. We have bur
ied several in the past 3-4 years with the know it all and inflated ego's w
hich has not helped per mote or expand the LSA & UL interest not to mention
the publics view as a fast way to kill your self.
We have all bent a landing leg at some time but the worst is persons trans
ition from GA to LSA, flaring to high. > From: russ@rkiphoto.com> S
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:57:01 -0500> To:
ss@rkiphoto.com>> > Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly beli
eve that that > recent post came from 'jetpilot'> Thanks for speaking out>
ue.com>> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@
hotmail.com>> >>> >> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a sm
all group of > >> individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidatio
n, and > >> group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post g
ood > >> information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not wanting >
>> to post information that this group does not like, just look at > >> the
two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more > >> than nasty
and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.> >>> >> If you agree wit
h this small " Clique " of individuals, personal > >> attacks and nasty pos
ts are quietly ignored and supported by this > >> group. If you disagree wi
th one of the members of this small > >> group, there is a quick negative p
ublic response by them. There > >> is not on this list of keeping things ci
vil, there is a standard > >> of keeping posts civil, unless some people do
n't like what someone > >> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts
are tolerated.> > --------------------------------------------------------
-------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------
-------------> >> > I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I h
ave the > > plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I buil
t > > myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this >
> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on > > thi
s Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level > > at 6000
rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any > > speed, but I sur
e increased the time that I can fly while flaring. > > I like it, a lot. I
have bent my share of gear before I installed > > the VG's. John doesn't se
e the need to do that to his plane. I > > don't have a problem with that! I
don't think that he is being > > dishonest or attempting to say that I am
a sissy because I choose > > to use them. For what its worth John is a much
better pilot than I > > am, more experience, more time generally adds up t
o better skills. > > As for the VG flight test that occurred between John a
nd Richard, I > > am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did his
> > considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that he > >
could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more > > comfortable
in flying that close to another airplane.> >> > Where the problem shows up
is when people cannot accept that not > > everyone sees the same answer to
the same question. Where the > > problem shows up with you Mike is quite fr
ankly your choice of > > words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" s
hows up in one of > > your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lo
st except the > > knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a div
ergent > > view have been disrespected. If these same views were expressed
> > face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit more of a > > pers
onal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot like > > assholes, every
one has one and few see the need for two. Lighten > > up a bit!> > Larry C>
====> > >
Message 24
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Can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive, instrument for setting the
AOA on my Firestar? With the wing mounting modification (TNK approved) I
have to make sure I get it close when I drill the hole for the front
bracket.
Bill
old FS
Bill,
I used an ordinary 4' level to set the wing incidence on my Mark III.
For 1 degree add 0.838" block or spacer on the very end of the level.
The angle I needed to set the bottom of the wing to on the MKIII was 9
degrees, that equates to a 7.5" block between the level and the wing at
the leading edge of the wing.
Jack Hart...Check my math so I don't mislead anyone, please.
Steven Green (The Idiot)
MK III 912S 550 hrs.
Message 25
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| Subject: | kolb list re: kolb drop |
>It is obvious that the people that are saying VG's don't make landings in a
>Kolb much more docile are the people that dont have VG's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Or maybe better said:
" It is obvious that the people that are saying VG's don't make landings in
a >Kolb much more docile are the people that HAVE LEARNED TO LAND"
[Boyd]
Message 26
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Bill,
I used an ordinary 4' level to set the wing incidence on my Mark III. For
1 degree add 0.838" block or spacer on the very end of the level. The angle
I needed to set the bottom of the wing to on the MKIII was 9 degrees, that
equates to a 7.5" block between the level and the wing at the leading edge
of the wing.
Jack Hart...Check my math so I don't mislead anyone, please.
.............................
Steven,
It checks out OK
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
Vern,
This is how I did it. Not saying this is the best, but works great for me.
My approach was similar the factory method with a few tweaks recommended by John
H and his brother Jim. Used existing gear sockets and did not make mods to move
forward like on Miss P'fer.
As John H said and recommended:
1.375 x .120 wall 4130
All welding, fitting, aligning, drilling done prior to heat treating to RC48.
Really hard to drill once heat treated. They heat treater will tell you that
the tubes will distort some. Not enough to matter in my opinion.
My axle sockets are 1.00 x .120 wall for the bigger, better 3/4" Matco W62 axles
with tapered bearings. These axles are heavy duty and have a lot more brake
pad surface area. Braking is much improved. I know some guys that can land
with their wheels locked on a grass strip to make sure they win a shortest landing
contest with these brakes. [Wink]
The other thing is 800-6.0 tires. Between the Heat treated still legs and the
larger tires, the cushion and energy absorbed on landing is great. I really had
trouble knowing when I was down and rolling when I first used the new setup.
You have to experiment with the air pressure a bit. Too much air pressure
will throw you back into the air.
John H. and Brother Jim recommended I put in 7 degrees of positive camber on the
axles. If you notice a few of the folks with the factory legs have the Kolb
gear squat after a few tough landings. This was true for the original factory
steel gear. Maybe they have improved this with a little positive camber now.
I put in the 7 degrees + camber and thought I would field adjust a lot of that
out with some hard landings and end up close to zero camber. Hasn't happened
yet. Somewhere between 5 and 7 degrees would be right. I have a CUB like
pigeon toe look gear unloaded and airborne. Hope I got this positive/negative
camber thing right. see picture
Back in 2006 when I did this:
4130 was about $60
Matco W62 axles - ~$445.00
Heat treating - $110.00
800 - 6.0 Tires from Dresser $164.00
E-mail direct if you want to discuss more and I can be of any help. John H and
his Brother Jim were a big help to me. don't want to take credit due them.
I'm sure I'm an "idiot" for the way I did it. But I like it a lot. And I have
a little fear when I go as slow as I can. [Twisted Evil]
--------
Thanks too much,
John Bickham
Mark III-C
"Using my Repairman Certificate"
St. Francisville, LA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165310#165310
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/imgp0564_small_129.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gear_legs_007_155.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/living_the_dream_2_003_medium_150.jpg
Message 28
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sorry, everyone. I thought I sent that 'off-list' Obviously not. My
apologies
On Feb 20, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Russ Kinne wrote:
>
> Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that
> that recent post came from 'jetpilot'
> Thanks for speaking out
>
>> <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot"
>> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group
>>> of individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation,
>>> and group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post
>>> good information on Kolbs. I cant say I blame people for not
>>> wanting to post information that this group does not like, just
>>> look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing
>>> more than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.
>>>
>>> If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal
>>> attacks and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this
>>> group. If you disagree with one of the members of this small
>>> group, there is a quick negative public response by them. There
>>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what
>>> someone is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are
>>> tolerated.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> I will try, probably in vain, but try I will! Mike, I have the
>> plane that John H flew with the VG's. They are ones that I built
>> myself using the formula that Howard Shackleford presented to this
>> list long ago when VG's first appeared on this list. The stall on
>> this Firestar has dropped to 32 MPH from 46MPH. Straight and level
>> at 6000 rpm's shows 70 MPH on a GPS. I don't think I lost any
>> speed, but I sure increased the time that I can fly while flaring.
>> I like it, a lot. I have bent my share of gear before I installed
>> the VG's. John doesn't see the need to do that to his plane. I
>> don't have a problem with that! I don't think that he is being
>> dishonest or attempting to say that I am a sissy because I choose
>> to use them. For what its worth John is a much better pilot than I
>> am, more experience, more time generally adds up to better
>> skills. As for the VG flight test that occurred between John and
>> Richard, I am afraid that it was not a very valid test. John did
>> his considerable best, but I think that Richard will tell you that
>> he could have pushed the envelope a bit more had he felt more
>> comfortable in flying that close to another airplane.
>>
>> Where the problem shows up is when people cannot accept that not
>> everyone sees the same answer to the same question. Where the
>> problem shows up with you Mike is quite frankly your choice of
>> words. Every time that "Idiot" or "plain stupid" shows up in one
>> of your messages, the meaning is lost, every thing is lost except
>> the knowledge that we who are reading it and might have a
>> divergent view have been disrespected. If these same views were
>> expressed face to face, I suspect that you might receive a bit
>> more of a personal attack than a verbal one. Opinions are a lot
>> like assholes, every one has one and few see the need for two.
>> Lighten up a bit!
>> Larry C
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
> This is how I did it.
> John Bickham
John B:
Ya done good.
MKIII looks good, and I know it flies good. My fat mkIII has a hard time
keeping up with yours.
The positive camber looks great. Negative camber on a Kolb is intolerable.
;-)
john h
mkIII
Message 30
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| Subject: | pictures from 1st flight of the MK III |
2-16-2008 1st flight in my Kolb MK III
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712639)
Here I am unfolding the Kolb
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712640)
Ready to unfold the right wing
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712643)
Danny Tyre( instructor/ test pilot lifting a sack full of weights to balance the
plane for his 1st test flights.
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712646)
1st test flight
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712647)
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712651)
Getting ready to get in for my 1st flight!
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712652)
Strapping myself in
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712653)
Closing the door
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712655)
Taxing out Danny and I
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712656)
My 1st flight in my Kolb!!
(http://www.putfile.com/pic/7712657)
Last flight of the day at sunset!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165324#165324
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
At 08:41 PM 2/20/2008, John Bickham wrote:
>...tires. Between the Heat treated still legs and the larger tires, the
>cushion and energy absorbed on landing is great. I really had trouble
>knowing when I was down and rolling when I first used the new setup. You
>have to experiment with the air pressure a bit. Too much air pressure
>will throw you back into the air...
This reminds me of a totally different question I've been meaning to ask.
My UltraStar, of course, has absolutely no flex to the gear legs, so the
tires are it. I have Freebird wheels and brakes, with tubeless wheelbarrow
tires. With fairly low air pressure I get adequate cushioning, but the
other day I was turning tight on the runway with the help of brakes, and
apparently twisted the tire right on the wheel enough to make it go
completely flat. The tire never came completely off the wheel, so I was
able to reinflate it with no problem. Is this a common problem? How do
you deal with this... should I be using tubes?
-Dana
--
Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
How do
> you deal with this... should I be using tubes?
>
> -Dana
Dana:
That is what I would do.
I run tubes in my tires.
john h
Message 33
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In a message dated 2/20/2008 5:19:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,
russ@rkiphoto.com writes:
There
>> is not on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard
>> of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone
>> is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.
Mike,
Could you explain what You are trying to convey, to the list, with
this statement ? I for one don"t understand.
Ed FF # 62 Do Not Archive
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re:alcohol and carb jets |
Group,
Just found out that L.E.A.F. claims that you need to go up to the next
size main jet for every 10% of alcohol in your fuel. Out of all my research
I
just now found out Maybe this weekend I can get my egts cooled a bit!
Ed FF # 62
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
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Message 35
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Thanks, Jack. My front brackets on the wings have three holes, and I have to put
in a 2 1/2" forward spacer. I don't know if the original builder of these wings
was experimenting, or goofed in his method. I have to start over because of
the difference in airframe mounting brackets. Can't do much more on that until
the cold weather breaks. Another wing repair starting next week if the tarp
doesn't get frozen to the ground.
Bill
Old FS
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| Subject: | Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs |
Dana,
I have had the same problem on several planes. Tubes help keep it from coming
off the bead but, then sometimes from using low psi you will spin the tire
on the rim tearing up the stem of the tube. You can usually fix that by drilling
2 small holes in the bead of the rim and put small screws into the bead of
the tire to keep them from spinning under heavy breaking but, from then on you
will not be able to go tubeless.
Fly Safe,
Wade
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165355#165355
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| Subject: | Re: Building your own gear legs |
Thanks for the good information. The plane looks really good.
John wanted me to tell a little about myself.
I live in the very Northern part of calif. The nearest Kolb flyer that I know of
is over in Klamath falls Oregon.
I have restored a couple of planes and built a RV7 and now your wondering why I
have a Kolb Mark 3.
Well I have to get to the airport somehow. Actually I like to build and tinker
and while I,m building and tinkering I just as well build a plane that I can fly
off my place witch is 1/2 mile long and 329' wide. But its not good enough
for the RV7A. I like to fly slow as well as fast.
I have a mill , lathe, mig & tig so I'm setup for building. I plan on building
a aluminum fuel tank for the Kolb.
Well enough for now. I will probably be picking your brains before its over with
Vern
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Message 38
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| Subject: | List related cartoon |
I think this cartoon fits the sometimes heated discussions of the last few weeks
pretty well. I hope you find it as funny as I did.
Waiting for flying weather......
Do not archive
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
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