---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/21/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:39 AM - Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs (Ed Chmielewski) 2. 01:43 AM - Re: The Kolb drop (johnjoyes) 3. 02:50 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (pj.ladd) 4. 04:29 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Dana Hague) 5. 05:26 AM - Re: Kolbs (Russ Kinne) 6. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (John Hauck) 7. 05:48 AM - Prop size ?? (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com) 8. 06:10 AM - Re: Prop size ?? (Ralph B) 9. 06:11 AM - Re: Building your own gear legs (John Bickham) 10. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (pj.ladd) 11. 07:35 AM - prop size (william sullivan) 12. 07:40 AM - prop size (william sullivan) 13. 08:04 AM - Re: Prop size ?? (jb92563) 14. 08:37 AM - Re: pictures from 1st flight of the MK III (Dwight) 15. 10:26 AM - Re: Kolbs (cspoke) 16. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Charlie England) 17. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (Ron) 18. 07:50 PM - Re: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs (Ron) 19. 08:43 PM - Re: Vg's (Dave Bigelow) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:52 AM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs Wade/All, No need to drill holes. Go to a good hobby shop, especially one that sells nitro cars, and buy some 'tire glue'. The stuff holds the slicks on my 1/4-scale sprinter during burn-outs, with no air pressure (foam-filled) (no, not sea-foam!). Ed in JXN MkII/503 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wade Lawicki" Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:35 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs > > Dana, > I have had the same problem on several planes. Tubes help keep it > from coming off the bead but, then sometimes from using low psi you will > spin the tire on the rim tearing up the stem of the tube. You can usually > fix that by drilling 2 small holes in the bead of the rim and put small > screws into the bead of the tire to keep them from spinning under heavy > breaking but, from then on you will not be able to go tubeless. > > Fly Safe, > Wade > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165355#165355 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:24 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop From: "johnjoyes" Those of you arguing about the "Kolb Drop" might like ti hear my completely different experience, when I too bent the legs of my Mk3. I was storming in, two-up, much faster than usual, a steep descent, almost a dive, with no flap, throttle fully off. When I came to flare, the stick came all the way back to the stop with zero resistance, while the plane carried straight on (into the ground) with no attempt to flare. My inspector says I would be amazed to know how many aircraft there are out there with some combination of attitide and speed where the tail is caught in a vortex from the main wing, and does nothing. Because of the speed, this could not be a stall. The remedy is to learn the characteristics of your plane, at a safe altitude. Now I always keep a bit of power on for landing, to ensure airflow over the tail. I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my experience, the place to put them first is on the underside of the tailplane just ahead of the elevator. JJ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165372#165372 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:22 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop arguing about the "Kolb Drop" >> If we are to continue talking unendingly about this phenomenon, even when there cannot be a single syllable which has not been repeated ad infinitum, can we please call it the `Kolb Quit` not the `Kolb Drop`. Kolb Quit has a nice alliterative feel to it and makes it easier for those of us who move their lips when they read. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:04 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop At 04:41 AM 2/21/2008, johnjoyes wrote: >Because of the speed, this could not be a stall. Not saying it's what happened, but stall is a function of AOA, not speed. >I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my >experience, the place to put them first is on the underside of the >tailplane just ahead of the elevator. If the tailplane had stalled, that might have helped. But VG's on the tail won't keep the wing from stalling. -Dana -- Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:25 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolbs Any Kolbers in FL, east of Pensacola? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop > If we are to continue talking unendingly about this phenomenon, even when > there cannot be a single syllable which has not been repeated ad > infinitum, can we please call it the `Kolb Quit` not the `Kolb Drop`. > > Cheers > > Pat Patrick: Sorry to correct you but, Kolb aircraft do not suffer from Kolb Quit or Kolb Drop, only the pilots do. Personally, I do not like the terms. They tend to implie Kolb aircraft have a problem, when in reality there is none. Pilots of some Kolbs have a problem landing. In fact, some Kolb pilots have problems taxiing and flying them. Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:32 AM PST US From: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Prop size ?? Anyone running a 66 inch prop ? How much boom clearance do you have ? Also Do Larger props with higher inertia cause More P factor to the point that a smaller prop with less inertia would be more desirable and make a more controllable Airplane ? Could a high inertia prop cause stress damage on an older Firestar ? Thanks ! Dave ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duff y/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:09 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Prop size ?? From: "Ralph B" BMWBikeCrz(at)aol.comA > > > Anyone running a 66 inch prop ? How much boom clearance do you have ? > Also Do Larger props with higher inertia cause More P factor to the point that a smaller prop with less inertia would be more desirable and make a more controllable Airplane ? > > Could a high inertia prop cause stress damage on an older Firestar ? > > Thanks ! Dave] I've been using an Ivo 66"prop for all these years. A 66" prop is what is recommended for the Firestar. -------- Ralph B Original Firestar N91493 E-AB 21 years flying it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165385#165385 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:07 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Building your own gear legs From: "John Bickham" Vern, First, welcome to the list. Second sorry about the typos. Third, wish you were closer. Could rent some mill and lathe time from you. Been wanting and looking for a while. There are a few details on the on gear legs that may be helpful if you decide to go that route. I also did some work on a 21.5 gallon tank. Can share some of that ciphering work if it would be helpful. -------- Thanks too much, John Bickham Mark III-C "Using my Repairman Certificate" St. Francisville, LA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165386#165386 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:56 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop Sorry to correct you but, Kolb aircraft do not suffer from Kolb Quit or Kolb Drop, only the pilots do>> Absolutely right John, as usual.. If an aircraft loses flying speed 6 ft up instead of 6 inches it will stop flying however it is spelt Cheers Pat. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:44 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: prop size Dave- My Firestar has a Rotax 447 with a Warp Drive ground adjustable 2 blade prop. The boom clearance is one inch. According to the former owner, everything works just fine. The only notable item is paint missing at the top of the boom, at the clearance point. Sandblasting? Runs fine on the ground. I can't tell you what pitch it's set at, or inertia problems. Good luck. Bill Old Firestar ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:59 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: prop size Sorry Dave- I forgot to tell you, mine is a 66" prop. Bill ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Prop size ?? From: "jb92563" P-Factor is caused primarily by the generation of thrust, gyroscopic effects and the swirling airflow over the wing and tail causing the aircraft to veer off its intended course slightly. It is most noticeable at low speed before the control surfaces have become fully effective. Higher pitch props, and higher RPMs contribute to it, so the way to reduce it is to use less than full thrust initially and gradually advance the throttle instead of just jamming it to full power. There is really no way around it since you want the thrust to be available as well as the higher rpms. Its all controlled in the technique of advancing the throttle gradually. A smaller prop would not be a good thing, just apply power gradually and the effect will be reduced even with a larger prop. Some would rather concentrate on rudder and aileron control at full throttle, than gradually advancing the throttle and having less rudder/aileron inputs. Its a personal choice really as to how many things you can effectively monitor and manage at the same time. I prefer the gradual application of throttle generally as I feel its easier on the engine and less divergent on the runway, but with my Lazair Ultralight it was balls to the wall with brake release at full power to get a nice quick lift off on a shorter runway and to minimize x-wind gust effects on that light a plane. -------- Ray Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202) Moni MotorGlider Schreder HP-11 Glider Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165398#165398 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:58 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: pictures from 1st flight of the MK III From: "Dwight" Grant, Congrats on your first flight with your new Kolb! I know you are going to love this adventure. You've come a long way from the RC Spads. an old friend from your past, (Think Spadfest) Dwight Hayden Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165402#165402 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolbs From: "cspoke" I am just West of Pensacola if that helps. -------- Craig Spoke Mark 111 Xtra (in the works) Lillian, AL cspoke@gulftel.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165421#165421 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:30 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop Charlie England wrote: > There's a much better option. Just install a message 'filter' so you > never see posts from people you find offensive. It works great; only > fails when someone else responds to the offensive poster (hint, hint). > If you need help setting up the filter, I'm sure there are several > people on this list who would help, including me. > > Charlie > > N27SB@aol.com wrote: >> Only an idiot would not recognize there very real fact. I have >> instructed in the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. >> >> >> That's it, I've had it, time to unplug for a while. >> >> Steve >> >> In a message dated 2/19/2008 8:37:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> orcabonita@hotmail.com writes: >> >> >> Kolb's have the characteristic of suddenly dropping hard on >> landing if very good technique is not used. Cessna and other >> most other training aircraft are not like this, they are much >> more forgiving on landing and tolerant of the pilot being a >> little off speed, or a little high in the flare. Only an idiot >> would not recognize there very real fact. I have instructed in >> the Kolb, and as a CFI in general aviation aircraft. In General >> aviation aircraft, I can let students get much further off speed, >> or flare a lot higher on landing than in a Kolb, and not bend the >> gear or result in a very hard landing. Hundreds of students >> flare high, land slow, etc etc every day in Cessnas and other >> aircraft and you do not constantly bend the gear, partly due to >> stronger gear, and partly to do much more forgiving aerodynamics. >> >> The other fact is that on my Kolb MK III, VG's have done a lot to >> correct this bad habit of dropping suddenly and hard upon >> landing. VG's do not solve this problem entirely, but my Kolb MK >> III is not anywhere near as critical in landing as it was, and it >> does not drop nearly as hard if I am a few feet high as it did >> without VG's. I don't care so much about the theory, or what >> some may say about stalls, the FACT is that VG's make landings >> much easier and less critical in my Kolb, and that is a great thing. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >> as you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164998#164998 >> >> > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:31 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's Geez I really thought I should stay out of this, but since I am weathered in at Tulsa tonight, I figured I might as well say something. :-) folks if I have VG on one wing only, it will only make a difference at LD max on the wing. And like the fellow said if you are ready and you feel a stall just reduce your angle of attack and off you go without the grim ripper getting his quota from you. All of that doom and gloom about the VG being so dangerous is only if you fail to do what you have to do in any stall, namely reduce angle of attack. I am flying every day aircraft with VG's installed on them, and I like it. It makes for better landings. Nice to have control all the way to wheel contact on the pavement every time even if I am off a bit off on my energy management. Now I am not taking a stand on a Kolb on account that I don't know if *i* will need the Vg's seeing that the Kolb is an STOL to begin with. But then someone can say they give me more STOL so why not amplify my fun some more. I have a ways to go before I can Kolb talk about the VG's, but from the C-400 and c-300 I have flown with them on, I like it. Ron (TxAz) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- jb92563 wrote: ============ Ohh my god......BAD VERY BAD idea to put VG's on one wing only. That is a sure way to get someone hurt or worse!!! What do you think would happen if one wing stalled before the other...say on the landing flair????? Can anyone say SPIN?!!!! Geez, there are some people who find a straight forward stall to be a problem, so for gods sake don't suggest they might survive a spin at low altitude.......Yikers!!!!! Also, think about this.....one wing develops full lift(VG's) on takeoff before the other is even flying.....nice roll to the un-VG'd wing......maybe even all the way inverted if your not reacting fast enough. Or how about the unequal lift causing the need for constant roll correction .....better get to the gym and work those biceps. NO nothing good can come of VG's on one wing only! Please don't try it! -------- Ray Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202) Moni MotorGlider Schreder HP-11 Glider Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165253#165253 -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:27 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tires, was: Re: Building your own gear legs Its common if the air pressure is too low. I would go with custom gear legs. Slightly thinner, or longer with same thickness. There is really not much else you can do. I guess I would try wheels at low pressure with inners, but you can rip the stem off of them if the pressure is too low. Me I'd probably try to add some length through some adopter tube or sleeve to the gear. Don't know about your machine as I don't know what your gear looks like. But you can try the ideas they're free. :-) Ron (TxAz) ===================================== ---- Dana Hague wrote: ============ At 08:41 PM 2/20/2008, John Bickham wrote: >...tires. Between the Heat treated still legs and the larger tires, the >cushion and energy absorbed on landing is great. I really had trouble >knowing when I was down and rolling when I first used the new setup. You >have to experiment with the air pressure a bit. Too much air pressure >will throw you back into the air... This reminds me of a totally different question I've been meaning to ask. My UltraStar, of course, has absolutely no flex to the gear legs, so the tires are it. I have Freebird wheels and brakes, with tubeless wheelbarrow tires. With fairly low air pressure I get adequate cushioning, but the other day I was turning tight on the runway with the help of brakes, and apparently twisted the tire right on the wheel enough to make it go completely flat. The tire never came completely off the wheel, so I was able to reinflate it with no problem. Is this a common problem? How do you deal with this... should I be using tubes? -Dana -- Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:24 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's From: "Dave Bigelow" At the risk of beating this tired subject to death: 1. With the "Landshorter" VG's on my Firestar, stall was reduced from somewhere in 35-40 mph range to 30 mph. That is with a calibrated airspeed indicator with exterior static ports. The VG's were installed exactly as suggested by the Landshorter people. 2. Control authority and feel is much improved during slow flight right down to the stall break. The actual stall is more pronounced with VG's than without. Stall is abrupt without warning, much like a sailplane laminar wing stall. 3. The Firestar floats better in ground effect with VG's than without during the landing flare. 4. There is a slight decrease in cruise airspeed at the same power setting with VG's. 5. I would highly recommend any low time pilot, particularly without Kolb experience, learn to fly his plane without VG's. After installing them, climb out to a couple thousand feet above the ground and do power on and power off stalls straight ahead to get a feel for your new plane. The VG's do change it that much. Then do the same with 20-30 degree bank angle. Do not get slow on approach, for if you do stall the plane, the nose drops much more radically than it does without the VG's. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165521#165521 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.