Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:25 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Michael Adams)
2. 02:50 AM - Kolb videos (william sullivan)
3. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (possums)
4. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (John Hauck)
5. 06:24 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Thom Riddle)
6. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Gary Thacker)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (possums)
8. 06:55 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Thom Riddle)
9. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Mike Welch)
10. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Gary Thacker)
11. 08:02 AM - Re: Fly the plane!! (lucien)
12. 08:02 AM - Re: Vg's (beauford)
13. 08:36 AM - Re: Kolb videos (huronflyer)
14. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (robert bean)
15. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (John Hauck)
16. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Kolb videos (John Hauck)
17. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (pj.ladd)
18. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (TK)
19. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (Eugene Zimmerman)
20. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (Bob Noyer)
21. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Charlie England)
22. 12:03 PM - Re: Race (not Kolb) (R. Hankins)
23. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (pj.ladd)
24. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (beauford T)
25. 01:06 PM - Alternate 4 cycle engines (Mike Welch)
26. 01:23 PM - Re: Alternate 4 cycle engines (John Hauck)
27. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (robert bean)
28. 04:24 PM - Re: Alternate 4 cycle engines (Mike Welch)
29. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Dana Hague)
30. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (robert bean)
31. 07:46 PM - Re: alternate 4 cycle engines (robert bean)
32. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Larry Bourne)
33. 08:16 PM - Southeast Visit (Larry Bourne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Hello everyone!
Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I
decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully) with
the VG discussion.
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed,
I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36) My father built
a Firestar 1 back around 1990 which is where I received my introduction
to the Kolb aircraft. He has flown many airplanes in his 40 years of
flying and to this day he will tell you hands down, the Firestar is the
best airplane he has ever flown. After receiving my private pilot
certificate, I got a chance to fly his airplane and it was a joy. It
wasn't long after that I got a Firestar 2 for myself. In fact, the
private airport where we fly has a small hangar (barn) with about 12 to
14 airplanes (approx). There have been 8 Firestars in the hangar. It
wouldn't be a stretch to say that most of the Firestars are there
because those people saw the performance of my fathers plane and just
had to get a Firestar themselves.
Now, I have around 500 hours in my firestar. This does not make me an
expert but I feel I have enough experience with the airplane to know its
flying characteristics. The Kolb is a wonderful airplane but as with
all airplanes, it has characteristics that need to be learned. I would
also say it's very possible that one Kolb may not perform exactly like
another Kolb of the same model due to building methods, pilot weight,
etc. With all that said, I'll tell you how my airplane flies.
(Please read everything I'm about to say before jumping on my case)
I believe the term "Kolb Drop" is really a tendency of not flying the
airplane to it's true flight characteristics. When the airspeed get's
slow enough or the angle of attack reaches that critical spot, a wing
will stop flying. Now I'll admit, I've had the airplane drop on me when
I wasn't expecting it. Was that the airplanes fault? Nope. I just had
to learn the characteristics of the airplane. I did know that it wasn't
my wing that was stalling but rather my stabilizer/elevator. Slow
airspeed, cord line change, angle of attack during landing, ground
effect, all play some small role. The solution at the time was to land
the airplane like it wanted to be landed which meant two point landings.
To me it actually felt like I had the nose pointed up high in the air
but videos would show my tail was still up in the air. I really thought
I had been making three points. Two point landings were very
comfortable but three points could still be achieved if I really worked
it and kept about 3,000 rpm's on landing. If I just landed two
pointers, there would never be a problem. (Please remember, this was my
Firestar... others may have no problems with three points)
Now for the interesting stuff. I had been reading about VG's and
figured, it probably would do no harm to at least test them. Wouldn't
it be great if you could take a wonderful flying airplane and somehow
make it even better? So I bought some VG's and installed them on the
wing and stabilizer. Before hand I had done some cruise speed test and
also side by side slow flight comparisons against my fathers Firestar 1.
He was always able to fly just a little slower than me but only by
about 2 mph. I'll come back to that comparison in a bit. With the VG's
on the airplane, I took off and really didn't notice anything. I then
applied full power and pulled the stick back. I wouldn't think a
Firestar would climb any steeper than it had before. After all, how can
one climb quicker than a home sick angel? Well, when you put on VG's,
that angel now has a fire under its butt and the only place to find a
bucket of water is in heaven. I then ran some cruise tests with a GPS.
My cruise speeds were unaffected. The next test was slow flight against
my fathers Firestar 1. I was now able to fly a couple a mph slower than
him, but only a few. So far, the climb rate was the only big
difference. I also did some stalls. Power off felt about the same but
the recovery was quicker. The power on stall was impressive. The
airplane didn't want to stall. It just wanted to mush a little and then
keep flying. Boy, the nose was high. The overall stall speed dropped
by about 4 mph. I was hoping for more. Now for the biggest difference.
Landings!!! I kept shooting landings and with each one kept pulling
more and more back stick. Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the
ground way before the mains touched. This could also be done at a
throttle setting very close to idle. Before, the elevator would stall
once you pulled the stick back past neutral (That was one of the things
I learned to avoid when landing before - it's also amazing how little
elevator deflection is needed to flare or even climb - take some video
and you'll be surprised when you can't see any movement on the elevator
- I digress)
The airplane now has some new flying characteristic that I had to learn.
The main thing is my landing speeds (once in ground effect) are much
slower than I could have landed before. The elevator is effective all
the way back. Why wouldn't anyone want to slow down their ground speed
during landing if they could? The Kolb is one of the best planes out
there without VG"s but WOW! With VG's... the difference cannot be put
into words.
I wanted my father to see what he thought of the VG's so he took my
airplane for a flight. He has over 800 hours in his Firestar and has
flown my airplane for many hours. When he landed, he just couldn't stop
talking about the positive effect the VG's had on the airplane. He was
very impressed. So impressed that he decided to put some on his
Firestar. He only placed them on the horizontal stabilizer and he
really didn't use that many. (Here's is a good tip - he purchased r/c
airplane wing skids that look just like VG's that can be made or bought.
They are very cheep but are a little thicker than VG's that can be
purchased) He was amazed at the difference it made to his landing
speeds and flare. It's really one of those things that has to be
experienced. We then did the side by side slow flight comparison and he
was now flying at my speed. I believe if he added them to the wings he
might be able to fly a tiny bit slower, but probably not enough to make
a huge difference. The big difference is the stabilizer. If you can
keep it flying (applying downward force) at a slower airspeed, you can
keep the nose the airplane up and slow down.
So, here is my brief summary.
The "Kolb Drop" is a result of the pilot not flying the airplane like it
should be in it's current configuration. I did it until I learned
better.
VG's added to the stabilizer made a tremendous difference.
The Kolb Firestar is a wonderful airplane just as it is. It's hard to
believe but it can be better with VG's. VG's would probably improve any
airplane when properly installed.
For those of you that don't have a Firestar (or other Kolb aircraft),
get one.
For those of you that already have one of the wonderful airplanes from
the Kolb company, place some VG's on your stabilizer. (and wing if you
really want)
About the videos. Most of the flying in the Firestar 1 and 2 video is
without VG's. All of the other videos show the airplane with VG's.
Long live KOLB!!!
Message 2
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My wife and I watched the videos on the Kolb website, and she was absolutely
amazed at the gentle, slow handling characteristics. She was under the impression
they had to be landed at a much higher speed and longer roll-out, similar
to the Cessna 150 she had flown. I think the videos are a great selling point
for the factory. Slow flight videos are much more impressive to a beginner than
a fast fly-by, and a great confidence builder to someone who has never tried
it. The repeated slow landings seem to show that the pilot was not even close
to a stall at landing. Seems to nullify the VG discussion until somebody gets
a tape measure out. Can anyone guess the actual touch-down speed on the slow
landings?
Bill S.
Firestar
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
At 04:22 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote:
>Hello everyone!
>
>Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I
>decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully)
>with the VG discussion.
What he said -------ditto:
It's amazing how far I can stick the nose up without
the plane stalling.
I'm not trying to beat this to death, but there are very few things that
you can do to your plane that (1) doesn't do anything at all for the
performance - after
spending lots of time and money or (2) actually degrades the
performance of what you
were trying to do anyway. I've spent lots of $ for nothing several times.
I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for the
amount of time and money invested. And like Jeremy says it's not just
that you can fly slower,
it's "how well" you can fly slower. I fly my plane slow - a lot.
On a cross country trip, maybe you won't need them at all, but they
sure are fun to play with around the patch. I'm sure the buzzards & the geese
are glad I have them too.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Morning Michael:
Thanks for the report and the video clips.
Where are you all located?
john h
mkIII
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being
discussed, I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36)
Long live KOLB!!!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Michael,
Thanks for the great report. Several years ago when I had a FS 1, I made and installed
VGs on the wing and got a few mph drop in stall speed but the stall was
sudden w/ VGs when it was more gentle w/o wing VGs. I never considered adding
them to the underside of the HS.
I now have a different and good bit heavier FS 1 that is under repair and won't
be flying again until summer. It flies somewhat differently from the first lighter
one. My current FS 1 seems to be limited by pitch control when landing,
much like you described. Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again,
as before, my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS.
Thanks again for your excellent report.
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165706#165706
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Can someone post the video clips again? Somehow they got away from me befo
re I got a chance to see them. ThanksGarySouderton,Pa.
From: jhauck@elmore.rr.comTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-List
: Re: Firestar Videos and VG'sDate: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:55:03 -0600
Morning Michael:
Thanks for the report and the video clips.
Where are you all located?
john h
mkIII
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I a
m the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36)
Long live KOLB!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo
ur "fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
At 09:21 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote:
>Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again, as before,
>my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS.
>
>Thanks again for your excellent report.
Don't forget when you order from www.landshorter.com
to put "Possums" in the promo code.
Remember ..... you've got a friend in the VG business.
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
The videos are at
http://tinyurl.com/349uxp
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165712#165712
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Gary and the rest of you'ze guys,
Just go to The New Kolb website, click on Firestar II, then click on "videos".
These are inspirational to any Kolb wannabe, no doubt!!
Mike Welch
MkIII Cx
________________________________
From: gbthacker@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's
Can someone post the video clips again? Somehow they got away from me before I
got a chance to see them. Thanks
Gary
Souderton,Pa.
________________________________
From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's
Morning Michael:
Thanks for the report and the video clips.
Where are you all located?
john h
mkIII
First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the
pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36)
Long live KOLB!!!
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail-get your "fix".
Check it out.
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Thanks guysGarySouderton,Pa.> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and V
G's> From: riddletr@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:52:59 -0800> To: k
iddletr@gmail.com>> > The videos are at> > http://tinyurl.com/349uxp> > ---
-----> Thom Riddle> N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL> N197BG FS1/447> ------------
--------> Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your
own common sense.> - Buddha> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http:/
========================> _
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts!-Play the word scramble challenge with sta
r power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja
n
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fly the plane!! |
mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote:
> John, and group of Kolb Guys,
>
> I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am building
an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft.
>
> Mike Welch
> Kolb MkIII
>
Yep, these videos are pretty accurate renditions of how the firestar flies. My
old FSII was stately like this in calm weather and still landed pretty slow even
at my current 6300' MSL altitude.
You'll find the plane to be a pretty ordinary handler with no surprises and no
tendency to "quit" more or less than any other light a/c of similar type.
Miss my old one bad......
LS
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/[/quote]
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165737#165737
Message 12
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Although I have personally been somewhat disappointed with the performance of
the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have nonetheless concluded that it is
possible to enhance low speed performance in the cockpit area if one takes the
time to carefully test to find the optimum location for the devices... It appears
that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be
an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain instances... Therefore,
we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have initiated an aggressive engineering and test
program to seek innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that
we might prevent an unnecessary tragedy.
As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous,
so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced
Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to
benefit most from the research... Volunteers?
dedicated beauford
FF-076
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg
Message 13
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Videos
Hi, I could not navigate to the video at the Kolb site.
There did not seem to be a place to register; do you need to be a registered Kolb
owner from factory?
In any regard are the videos on "You Tube" or could you suggest a similar video
with comparable low and slow scenario?
Dave
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165750#165750
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all set up for inverted flight?
do not archive
On 23, Feb 2008, at 11:00 AM, beauford wrote:
>
> Although I have personally been somewhat disappointed with the
> performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have
> nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed
> performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully
> test to find the optimum location for the devices... It appears
> that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems
> to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain
> instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have
> initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek
> innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might
> prevent an unnecessary tragedy.
>
> As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be
> somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing
> be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those
> mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the
> research... Volunteers?
>
>
> dedicated beauford
> FF-076
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg
>
>
Message 15
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> As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat
dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the
more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG
denial" would stand to benefit most from the research... Volunteers?
>
>
> dedicated beauford
Beauford:
About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG thingy.
Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts.
BTW: Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.
john h - Patiently waiting for some new developments. Is George Alexander
part of your Think Tank?
mkIII
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> Hi, I could not navigate to the video at the Kolb site.
?
>
> Dave
http://www.kolbsport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=77
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abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often
overlooked>>
Beautiful, Beauford,
It occurs to me that there me a connection here between Kolb Drop and
Brewers Droop. I do not know if this malady affects those in the US but in
the UK it is a well known phenomenen which manifests irself in a certain
body organ and is caused by the uninhibited consumption of beer.
Just a thought
Pat
Message 18
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beauford wrote:
>
> Although I have personally been somewhat disappointed with the performance of
the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have nonetheless concluded that it is
possible to enhance low speed performance in the cockpit area if one takes the
time to carefully test to find the optimum location for the devices... It
appears that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be
an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain instances... Therefore,
we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have initiated an aggressive engineering and
test program to seek innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that
we might prevent an unnecessary tragedy.
>
> As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous,
so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced
Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to
benefit most from the research... Volunteers?
>
>
> dedicated beauford
> FF-076
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg
>
beauford,
You are one good old genius!!!!! Wish I had thought of those solutions
first. Hat's off !!!!
Maybe they would work on your 447 ? Never know!!!
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 19
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On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:42 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> Beauford:
>
> About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG
> thingy.
>
> Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts.
>
> BTW: Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.
>
> john h - Patiently waiting for some new developments. Is George
> Alexander part of your Think Tank?
> mkIII
Hey,
What I'd like to know is how those VGs keep him from torching his
mic muff with that huge after burner?
Message 20
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Pat,
This is locally called Dunlop's Disease, wherein yer belly dun loped
over yer belt.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Dana Hague wrote:
>
> At 04:41 AM 2/21/2008, johnjoyes wrote:
>
>> Because of the speed, this could not be a stall.
>
> Not saying it's what happened, but stall is a function of AOA, not speed.
>
>> I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my
>> experience, the place to put them first is on the underside of the
>> tailplane just ahead of the elevator.
>
> If the tailplane had stalled, that might have helped. But VG's on
> the tail won't keep the wing from stalling.
>
> -Dana
> --
> Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?
Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, either
from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail stall. If it
happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on its existing path
without increasing its angle of attack. Remember, the elevator is trying
to push the tail down. If that doesn't happen, the wing's angle of
attack won't increase.
A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out of
stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared adequately. The
fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's 'upside down' in
the stab. Slightly different technique to achieve the same thing as the
bottom side VG trick: keep the air attached to the low-pressure side of
the control surface.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_177
Charlie
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Race (not Kolb) |
Thanks for the link. That was fun.
Do not archive
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165798#165798
Message 23
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wherein yer belly dun loped >>
Hi Bob,
it wasn`t exactly yer belly loping that I had in mind, but close.
Cheers
Pat
Message 24
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Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.
Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank?
---------------
Good Sir:
Kindly restrain yourself... your coarse language and insulting demeanor
can serve only to wantonly degrade the level of this important scientific
discourse... and needlessly delay our arrival at the truth... sigh...
The strikingly handsome (and disarmingly charming) individual in the photos
is the daring young test pilot who has most graciously consented to bring
his unique and extensive skill set to bear upon this daunting problem...and
courageously conduct the required aerial test work... thus affording a
glimmer of hope that the List will see an end to the seemingly interminable
suffering which has enveloped us all for these many months through the
double curse of the never ending VG and Kolb Drop strings... Homer willing,
we shall witness a merciful end to this suffering and live to see the
screwdriver of reality driven squarely through the hearts of these monsters,
that they shall trouble us here on this List no more...
I am pleased to report that the intrepid Mr. Alexander is indeed a vigorous
and dedicated member of the dedicated team of technicians which has so
selflessly thrown itself at this challenge...
Through the efforts of these men, and others like them, I remain confident
that the relief most of us on the List so fervently seek is finally at
hand... if the double stick tape holds up...
noble beauford
FF-076
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Alternate 4 cycle engines |
Kolb guys,
Seeing as how we've managed to "kick a dead horse" regarding VGs, so far beyond
recognition, that our horse is barely recognizable as a former farm animal, I
thought I'd pass along a recent email that was sent to the FlyGEO (engines) Yahoo!
Group. Obviously, this guy flies a 2 person trike.
NOTE: Things in brackets "{{ }}" are where I've done the calculations and comments
for you. The G10T refers to the GEO 3 cyl 1.0L turbo. THIS IS NOT MY EMAIL,
IT WAS SENT TO OUR GROUP.
This COPY and PASTED EMAIL is as follows:
"Well I have the Air Creation with the GEO G10T. I had the 582 previously.
Performance is much better especially at "all up" weight.
My base is 5500ft MSL (Normal DA of around 7500-8200!!! )
Climb rate at MTOW is better than the 582 was one up!
Using cruise control and taking off at around 4500-4800rpm gives
around 650fpm (my 582's WOT). I also get around 5 liters/hr {{1.3 gal/hr}} (when
flying with
around 30liters {{7.9 gallons}} of fuel. With a full tank the fuel is around 6-7
liters/hr {{1.6 to 1.8 gal/hr}}and my trike cruises at about 58mph hand off.
I'm totally happy with the engine as the fuel consumption is so low I
can almost do almost 750 miles (1200km) with one normal sized tank
(60l) {{19.8 gallons}}! Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than
a
912S!
For anyone flying from a high altitude I will not hessitate to
recommend Vassili's product. I will try the G13 {{GEO's smallest 4 cylinder}}
next but for now I'm happy to have the Turbo on the 1.0 liter 3 cylinder.
At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the
limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of 14.7 psi
boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO engine at virtually
DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to almost 120 HP & 116
ft/lbs!!!}}
I have had some minor things to sort out but mostly as I couldn't copy
anyones engine mount due to my boot / luggage area. The engine has a
rough spot at 1500. Cruise is 3600rpm one up @ 5l/h {{1.3 US Gal}} +-50%
throttle.
My trike is not a light trike either, it weighs 225kg {{ 496 lbs.}} empty still
less
than a 912. At idle the gearbox is louder than a 912 and in flight the
engine has a more throaty sound. Bystanders say it sounds like a V8
Chevy ;).
The only negative comment I've had is it's size looks big compared to
a rotax. From what I've seen the size is misleading as it's not heavy
even though it looks big.
For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits
inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude.
I will post pics soon and be glad to answer any questions."
END OF HIS EMAIL.
It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that the fuel
consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!! Supposedly
cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less than the
2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl.
Just thought I'd pass this along.......
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate 4 cycle engines |
Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a
> 912S!
>
> At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the
> limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of
> 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO
> engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to
> almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}}
>
> For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits
> inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude.
> It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that
the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!!
Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less
than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl.
>
> Mike Welch
Mike W:
Sounds almost too good to be true.
How does he keep up with the demand for engines?
With half or less fuel burn and producing more power that the 912ULS, that
is a hard to beat combination.
john h
mkIII
Message 27
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Isn't George already occupied as the keeper of the Partegas and the
Dewar's?
do not archive
On 23, Feb 2008, at 4:00 PM, beauford T wrote:
> <beauford173@verizon.net>
>
>
>
> Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.
>
> Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank?
>
> ---------------
> Good Sir:
> Kindly restrain yourself... your coarse language and insulting
> demeanor
> can serve only to wantonly degrade the level of this important
> scientific
> discourse... and needlessly delay our arrival at the truth...
> sigh...
>
> The strikingly handsome (and disarmingly charming) individual in
> the photos
> is the daring young test pilot who has most graciously consented to
> bring
> his unique and extensive skill set to bear upon this daunting
> problem...and
> courageously conduct the required aerial test work... thus affording a
> glimmer of hope that the List will see an end to the seemingly
> interminable
> suffering which has enveloped us all for these many months through the
> double curse of the never ending VG and Kolb Drop strings... Homer
> willing,
> we shall witness a merciful end to this suffering and live to see the
> screwdriver of reality driven squarely through the hearts of these
> monsters,
> that they shall trouble us here on this List no more...
>
> I am pleased to report that the intrepid Mr. Alexander is indeed a
> vigorous
> and dedicated member of the dedicated team of technicians which has so
> selflessly thrown itself at this challenge...
>
> Through the efforts of these men, and others like them, I remain
> confident
> that the relief most of us on the List so fervently seek is finally at
> hand... if the double stick tape holds up...
>
> noble beauford
> FF-076
> do not archive
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Alternate 4 cycle engines |
John and others,
We shall soon see. It has ALWAYS been my understanding the fuel burn for the
1.0L 3 cyl. GEo engine is around 2.25 gal/hr at cruise. This is the normally
aspirated engine, producing 62 HP, and around 58 ftlb of torque. From what I
am lead to believe, the N.A. (normally aspirated) engine puts out the performance
figures on par with a 582. I'm just going by what I'm told. I haven't got
the in-flight data to back anything up. Without first hand knowledge, I don't
testify to anything. But I guess there may be some that say they do have
the data.
(This guy that wrote that email??)
GEO Metros (and Japanese Econ-boxes in general) have always been known for their
ability to squeeze the crap out a gallon of petrol. Racing down the Interstate
at 70 mph in an 1800 lb car, and getting 50 mpg must equate to something
that is efficient. How that can actually cross over into an aircraft engine
has yet to be seen by me. (Actually, I've had my GEO engine/Ivo prop mounted
and running years ago, but not flying yet.)
(Besides, John, is it remotely possible I might be trying to just change the
"subject de jour" (VGs)?)
Anyone flying a GEO that would care to chime in??? Bob? Vic in Sac? Anybody?
Anybody??
Mike Welch
MkIII
> From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Alternate 4 cycle engines
> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:20:19 -0600
>
>
> Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a
>> 912S!
>>
>> At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the
>> limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of
>> 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO
>> engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to
>> almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}}
>>
>
>> For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits
>> inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude.
>
>
>> It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that
> the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!!
> Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less
> than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl.
>>
>> Mike Welch
>
>
> Mike W:
>
> Sounds almost too good to be true.
>
> How does he keep up with the demand for engines?
>
> With half or less fuel burn and producing more power that the 912ULS, that
> is a hard to beat combination.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
At 02:51 PM 2/23/2008, Charlie England wrote:
>Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, either
>from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail stall. If it
>happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on its existing path
>without increasing its angle of attack. Remember, the elevator is trying
>to push the tail down. If that doesn't happen, the wing's angle of attack
>won't increase.
If the tailplane stalls, I would expect the aircraft to pitch down, no?
>A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out of
>stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared adequately. The
>fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's 'upside down' in the
>stab. Slightly different technique to achieve the same thing as the bottom
>side VG trick: keep the air attached to the low-pressure side of the
>control surface.
DId the Cardinal tailplane actually stall or just "run out of
authority"? If it stalled, I would expect it to pitch down, as I said...
if it simply wasn't effective enough that's different.
-Dana
do not archive
--
Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
From my dim memory the hearsay was that the early Cardinal would get
stuck in a position on takeoff
where it would just roar off the end of the runway without climbing
out of ground effect.
Never actually watched it happen. :)
They did put those slots on the tail though.
BB
do not archive
On 23, Feb 2008, at 8:42 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
>
> At 02:51 PM 2/23/2008, Charlie England wrote:
>
>> Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem,
>> either from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail
>> stall. If it happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on
>> its existing path without increasing its angle of attack.
>> Remember, the elevator is trying to push the tail down. If that
>> doesn't happen, the wing's angle of attack won't increase.
>
> If the tailplane stalls, I would expect the aircraft to pitch down,
> no?
>
>> A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran
>> out of stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared
>> adequately. The fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator
>> that's 'upside down' in the stab. Slightly different technique to
>> achieve the same thing as the bottom side VG trick: keep the air
>> attached to the low-pressure side of the control surface.
>
> DId the Cardinal tailplane actually stall or just "run out of
> authority"? If it stalled, I would expect it to pitch down, as I
> said... if it simply wasn't effective enough that's different.
>
> -Dana
>
> do not archive
> --
> Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species.
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | re: alternate 4 cycle engines |
I can't verify as to the accuracy but this is the chart that has been
used for comparison
between the 582 and the G10 Suzuki.
I think Richard Swiderski has this on his web site too.
(Has anyone heard from him lately?)
scroll down for the HP chart.
Scan2
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: The Kolb drop |
Most of it's lost in the hazy mists of antiquity and the Lar's aging
memory, but 8 or 10 years ago I checked out in a '68 (I think) Cardinal
that had been upgraded to the horizontal stabilizer slots and I don't
remember hearing about that one. Biggest thing the instructor worried
about was sudden control movements on final approach. It was very
touchy and easy to get porpoising on short final - a real attention
getter - but, with a gentle, steady touch, it did work. I MUCH prefer
the C-172.
Biggest reason I only rented it 3 or 4 times was the awful lack of
power. Seems (as I recall) like it had the 150 hp engine, and it had
less apparent power than a C-150. With 2 up it took forever to get
airborne, climb was only 300 or 400 fpm and I always felt like it was
borderline on a stall. This one had the original high performance wing,
too. Stalls practiced at 3500 feet AGL were scary - it would suddenly
just quit and drop like a stone. I was told that the later 180 hp
versions with the milder wing were very nice to fly. Wish I could have
tried one. Visibility out of the Cardinal was the best of any GA
aircraft I've flown in. Entry and exiting the plane were very easy,
too. Almost a goodie. Lar. Do not
Archive.
robert bean wrote:
>
> From my dim memory the hearsay was that the early Cardinal would get
> stuck in a position on takeoff
> where it would just roar off the end of the runway without climbing
> out of ground effect.
> Never actually watched it happen. :)
>
> They did put those slots on the tail though.
> BB
> do not archive
>
> On 23, Feb 2008, at 8:42 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
>
>>
>> At 02:51 PM 2/23/2008, Charlie England wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem,
>>> either from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail
>>> stall. If it happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on
>>> its existing path without increasing its angle of attack. Remember,
>>> the elevator is trying to push the tail down. If that doesn't
>>> happen, the wing's angle of attack won't increase.
>>
>> If the tailplane stalls, I would expect the aircraft to pitch down, no?
>>
>>> A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out
>>> of stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared
>>> adequately. The fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's
>>> 'upside down' in the stab. Slightly different technique to achieve
>>> the same thing as the bottom side VG trick: keep the air attached to
>>> the low-pressure side of the control surface.
>>
>> DId the Cardinal tailplane actually stall or just "run out of
>> authority"? If it stalled, I would expect it to pitch down, as I
>> said... if it simply wasn't effective enough that's different.
>>
>> -Dana
>>
>> do not archive
>> --
>> Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
Building Kolb Mk III
"Vamoose"
www.gogittum.com
www.gogittum.com/blog
Message 33
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I hope all you flamers out there will forgive a message for some
Kolb-ers, but not really Kolb related.............
I recently contacted quite a few South Eastern Kolb drivers with the
idea of visiting them on a trip to the Deep South this summer, and it's
simpler to get a message to them here. Family problems in the
Vancouver, B.C., Canada area have forced a change of plans, and I'm
needed there. Maybe I'll get a chance to go swamp crawling and fishing
with y'all next year. Lar. Do not Archive.
--
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
Building Kolb Mk III
"Vamoose"
www.gogittum.com
www.gogittum.com/blog
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