---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/23/08: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:25 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Michael Adams) 2. 02:50 AM - Kolb videos (william sullivan) 3. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (possums) 4. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (John Hauck) 5. 06:24 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Thom Riddle) 6. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Gary Thacker) 7. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (possums) 8. 06:55 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Thom Riddle) 9. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Mike Welch) 10. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Gary Thacker) 11. 08:02 AM - Re: Fly the plane!! (lucien) 12. 08:02 AM - Re: Vg's (beauford) 13. 08:36 AM - Re: Kolb videos (huronflyer) 14. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (robert bean) 15. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (John Hauck) 16. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Kolb videos (John Hauck) 17. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (pj.ladd) 18. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (TK) 19. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (Eugene Zimmerman) 20. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Vg's (Bob Noyer) 21. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Charlie England) 22. 12:03 PM - Re: Race (not Kolb) (R. Hankins) 23. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (pj.ladd) 24. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (beauford T) 25. 01:06 PM - Alternate 4 cycle engines (Mike Welch) 26. 01:23 PM - Re: Alternate 4 cycle engines (John Hauck) 27. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Vg's (robert bean) 28. 04:24 PM - Re: Alternate 4 cycle engines (Mike Welch) 29. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Dana Hague) 30. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (robert bean) 31. 07:46 PM - Re: alternate 4 cycle engines (robert bean) 32. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: The Kolb drop (Larry Bourne) 33. 08:16 PM - Southeast Visit (Larry Bourne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:25:08 AM PST US From: "Michael Adams" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Hello everyone! Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully) with the VG discussion. First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36) My father built a Firestar 1 back around 1990 which is where I received my introduction to the Kolb aircraft. He has flown many airplanes in his 40 years of flying and to this day he will tell you hands down, the Firestar is the best airplane he has ever flown. After receiving my private pilot certificate, I got a chance to fly his airplane and it was a joy. It wasn't long after that I got a Firestar 2 for myself. In fact, the private airport where we fly has a small hangar (barn) with about 12 to 14 airplanes (approx). There have been 8 Firestars in the hangar. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that most of the Firestars are there because those people saw the performance of my fathers plane and just had to get a Firestar themselves. Now, I have around 500 hours in my firestar. This does not make me an expert but I feel I have enough experience with the airplane to know its flying characteristics. The Kolb is a wonderful airplane but as with all airplanes, it has characteristics that need to be learned. I would also say it's very possible that one Kolb may not perform exactly like another Kolb of the same model due to building methods, pilot weight, etc. With all that said, I'll tell you how my airplane flies. (Please read everything I'm about to say before jumping on my case) I believe the term "Kolb Drop" is really a tendency of not flying the airplane to it's true flight characteristics. When the airspeed get's slow enough or the angle of attack reaches that critical spot, a wing will stop flying. Now I'll admit, I've had the airplane drop on me when I wasn't expecting it. Was that the airplanes fault? Nope. I just had to learn the characteristics of the airplane. I did know that it wasn't my wing that was stalling but rather my stabilizer/elevator. Slow airspeed, cord line change, angle of attack during landing, ground effect, all play some small role. The solution at the time was to land the airplane like it wanted to be landed which meant two point landings. To me it actually felt like I had the nose pointed up high in the air but videos would show my tail was still up in the air. I really thought I had been making three points. Two point landings were very comfortable but three points could still be achieved if I really worked it and kept about 3,000 rpm's on landing. If I just landed two pointers, there would never be a problem. (Please remember, this was my Firestar... others may have no problems with three points) Now for the interesting stuff. I had been reading about VG's and figured, it probably would do no harm to at least test them. Wouldn't it be great if you could take a wonderful flying airplane and somehow make it even better? So I bought some VG's and installed them on the wing and stabilizer. Before hand I had done some cruise speed test and also side by side slow flight comparisons against my fathers Firestar 1. He was always able to fly just a little slower than me but only by about 2 mph. I'll come back to that comparison in a bit. With the VG's on the airplane, I took off and really didn't notice anything. I then applied full power and pulled the stick back. I wouldn't think a Firestar would climb any steeper than it had before. After all, how can one climb quicker than a home sick angel? Well, when you put on VG's, that angel now has a fire under its butt and the only place to find a bucket of water is in heaven. I then ran some cruise tests with a GPS. My cruise speeds were unaffected. The next test was slow flight against my fathers Firestar 1. I was now able to fly a couple a mph slower than him, but only a few. So far, the climb rate was the only big difference. I also did some stalls. Power off felt about the same but the recovery was quicker. The power on stall was impressive. The airplane didn't want to stall. It just wanted to mush a little and then keep flying. Boy, the nose was high. The overall stall speed dropped by about 4 mph. I was hoping for more. Now for the biggest difference. Landings!!! I kept shooting landings and with each one kept pulling more and more back stick. Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the ground way before the mains touched. This could also be done at a throttle setting very close to idle. Before, the elevator would stall once you pulled the stick back past neutral (That was one of the things I learned to avoid when landing before - it's also amazing how little elevator deflection is needed to flare or even climb - take some video and you'll be surprised when you can't see any movement on the elevator - I digress) The airplane now has some new flying characteristic that I had to learn. The main thing is my landing speeds (once in ground effect) are much slower than I could have landed before. The elevator is effective all the way back. Why wouldn't anyone want to slow down their ground speed during landing if they could? The Kolb is one of the best planes out there without VG"s but WOW! With VG's... the difference cannot be put into words. I wanted my father to see what he thought of the VG's so he took my airplane for a flight. He has over 800 hours in his Firestar and has flown my airplane for many hours. When he landed, he just couldn't stop talking about the positive effect the VG's had on the airplane. He was very impressed. So impressed that he decided to put some on his Firestar. He only placed them on the horizontal stabilizer and he really didn't use that many. (Here's is a good tip - he purchased r/c airplane wing skids that look just like VG's that can be made or bought. They are very cheep but are a little thicker than VG's that can be purchased) He was amazed at the difference it made to his landing speeds and flare. It's really one of those things that has to be experienced. We then did the side by side slow flight comparison and he was now flying at my speed. I believe if he added them to the wings he might be able to fly a tiny bit slower, but probably not enough to make a huge difference. The big difference is the stabilizer. If you can keep it flying (applying downward force) at a slower airspeed, you can keep the nose the airplane up and slow down. So, here is my brief summary. The "Kolb Drop" is a result of the pilot not flying the airplane like it should be in it's current configuration. I did it until I learned better. VG's added to the stabilizer made a tremendous difference. The Kolb Firestar is a wonderful airplane just as it is. It's hard to believe but it can be better with VG's. VG's would probably improve any airplane when properly installed. For those of you that don't have a Firestar (or other Kolb aircraft), get one. For those of you that already have one of the wonderful airplanes from the Kolb company, place some VG's on your stabilizer. (and wing if you really want) About the videos. Most of the flying in the Firestar 1 and 2 video is without VG's. All of the other videos show the airplane with VG's. Long live KOLB!!! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:09 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb videos My wife and I watched the videos on the Kolb website, and she was absolutely amazed at the gentle, slow handling characteristics. She was under the impression they had to be landed at a much higher speed and longer roll-out, similar to the Cessna 150 she had flown. I think the videos are a great selling point for the factory. Slow flight videos are much more impressive to a beginner than a fast fly-by, and a great confidence builder to someone who has never tried it. The repeated slow landings seem to show that the pilot was not even close to a stall at landing. Seems to nullify the VG discussion until somebody gets a tape measure out. Can anyone guess the actual touch-down speed on the slow landings? Bill S. Firestar ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:00 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's At 04:22 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote: >Hello everyone! > >Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I >decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully) >with the VG discussion. What he said -------ditto: It's amazing how far I can stick the nose up without the plane stalling. I'm not trying to beat this to death, but there are very few things that you can do to your plane that (1) doesn't do anything at all for the performance - after spending lots of time and money or (2) actually degrades the performance of what you were trying to do anyway. I've spent lots of $ for nothing several times. I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for the amount of time and money invested. And like Jeremy says it's not just that you can fly slower, it's "how well" you can fly slower. I fly my plane slow - a lot. On a cross country trip, maybe you won't need them at all, but they sure are fun to play with around the patch. I'm sure the buzzards & the geese are glad I have them too. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:37 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Morning Michael: Thanks for the report and the video clips. Where are you all located? john h mkIII First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36) Long live KOLB!!! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's From: "Thom Riddle" Michael, Thanks for the great report. Several years ago when I had a FS 1, I made and installed VGs on the wing and got a few mph drop in stall speed but the stall was sudden w/ VGs when it was more gentle w/o wing VGs. I never considered adding them to the underside of the HS. I now have a different and good bit heavier FS 1 that is under repair and won't be flying again until summer. It flies somewhat differently from the first lighter one. My current FS 1 seems to be limited by pitch control when landing, much like you described. Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again, as before, my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS. Thanks again for your excellent report. -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165706#165706 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:19 AM PST US From: Gary Thacker Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Can someone post the video clips again? Somehow they got away from me befo re I got a chance to see them. ThanksGarySouderton,Pa. From: jhauck@elmore.rr.comTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-List : Re: Firestar Videos and VG'sDate: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:55:03 -0600 Morning Michael: Thanks for the report and the video clips. Where are you all located? john h mkIII First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I a m the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36) Long live KOLB!!! _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:14 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's At 09:21 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote: >Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again, as before, >my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS. > >Thanks again for your excellent report. Don't forget when you order from www.landshorter.com to put "Possums" in the promo code. Remember ..... you've got a friend in the VG business. do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:26 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's From: "Thom Riddle" The videos are at http://tinyurl.com/349uxp -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165712#165712 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:21 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Gary and the rest of you'ze guys, Just go to The New Kolb website, click on Firestar II, then click on "videos". These are inspirational to any Kolb wannabe, no doubt!! Mike Welch MkIII Cx ________________________________ From: gbthacker@hotmail.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Can someone post the video clips again? Somehow they got away from me before I got a chance to see them. Thanks Gary Souderton,Pa. ________________________________ From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Morning Michael: Thanks for the report and the video clips. Where are you all located? john h mkIII First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos. (Michael Adams, age 36) Long live KOLB!!! get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail-get your "fix". Check it out. _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:26 AM PST US From: Gary Thacker Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Thanks guysGarySouderton,Pa.> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and V G's> From: riddletr@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:52:59 -0800> To: k iddletr@gmail.com>> > The videos are at> > http://tinyurl.com/349uxp> > --- -----> Thom Riddle> N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL> N197BG FS1/447> ------------ --------> Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.> - Buddha> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http:/ ========================> _ =====================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!-Play the word scramble challenge with sta r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja n ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! From: "lucien" mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote: > John, and group of Kolb Guys, > > I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am building an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft. > > Mike Welch > Kolb MkIII > Yep, these videos are pretty accurate renditions of how the firestar flies. My old FSII was stately like this in calm weather and still landed pretty slow even at my current 6300' MSL altitude. You'll find the plane to be a pretty ordinary handler with no surprises and no tendency to "quit" more or less than any other light a/c of similar type. Miss my old one bad...... LS _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/[/quote] -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165737#165737 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:37 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's From: "beauford" Although I have personally been somewhat disappointed with the performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully test to find the optimum location for the devices... It appears that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might prevent an unnecessary tragedy. As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the research... Volunteers? dedicated beauford FF-076 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb videos From: "huronflyer" Videos Hi, I could not navigate to the video at the Kolb site. There did not seem to be a place to register; do you need to be a registered Kolb owner from factory? In any regard are the videos on "You Tube" or could you suggest a similar video with comparable low and slow scenario? Dave -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165750#165750 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:28 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's all set up for inverted flight? do not archive On 23, Feb 2008, at 11:00 AM, beauford wrote: > > Although I have personally been somewhat disappointed with the > performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have > nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed > performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully > test to find the optimum location for the devices... It appears > that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems > to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain > instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have > initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek > innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might > prevent an unnecessary tragedy. > > As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be > somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing > be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those > mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the > research... Volunteers? > > > dedicated beauford > FF-076 > do not archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:02 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's > As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the research... Volunteers? > > > dedicated beauford Beauford: About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG thingy. Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts. BTW: Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet. john h - Patiently waiting for some new developments. Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank? mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb videos > Hi, I could not navigate to the video at the Kolb site. ? > > Dave http://www.kolbsport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=77 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:52 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often overlooked>> Beautiful, Beauford, It occurs to me that there me a connection here between Kolb Drop and Brewers Droop. I do not know if this malady affects those in the US but in the UK it is a well known phenomenen which manifests irself in a certain body organ and is caused by the uninhibited consumption of beer. Just a thought Pat ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:24 AM PST US From: TK Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's beauford wrote: > > Although I have personally been somewhat disappointed with the performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully test to find the optimum location for the devices... It appears that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might prevent an unnecessary tragedy. > > As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the research... Volunteers? > > > dedicated beauford > FF-076 > do not archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg > beauford, You are one good old genius!!!!! Wish I had thought of those solutions first. Hat's off !!!! Maybe they would work on your 447 ? Never know!!! Terry - FireFly #95 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:27 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:42 PM, John Hauck wrote: > Beauford: > > About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG > thingy. > > Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts. > > BTW: Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet. > > john h - Patiently waiting for some new developments. Is George > Alexander part of your Think Tank? > mkIII Hey, What I'd like to know is how those VGs keep him from torching his mic muff with that huge after burner? ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:08 AM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's Pat, This is locally called Dunlop's Disease, wherein yer belly dun loped over yer belt. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:42 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop Dana Hague wrote: > > At 04:41 AM 2/21/2008, johnjoyes wrote: > >> Because of the speed, this could not be a stall. > > Not saying it's what happened, but stall is a function of AOA, not speed. > >> I like the idea of VG's and hope to try them out. But in view of my >> experience, the place to put them first is on the underside of the >> tailplane just ahead of the elevator. > > If the tailplane had stalled, that might have helped. But VG's on > the tail won't keep the wing from stalling. > > -Dana > -- > Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them? Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, either from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail stall. If it happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on its existing path without increasing its angle of attack. Remember, the elevator is trying to push the tail down. If that doesn't happen, the wing's angle of attack won't increase. A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out of stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared adequately. The fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's 'upside down' in the stab. Slightly different technique to achieve the same thing as the bottom side VG trick: keep the air attached to the low-pressure side of the control surface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_177 Charlie ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Race (not Kolb) From: "R. Hankins" Thanks for the link. That was fun. Do not archive -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165798#165798 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:33 PM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's wherein yer belly dun loped >> Hi Bob, it wasn`t exactly yer belly loping that I had in mind, but close. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:27 PM PST US From: "beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet. Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank? --------------- Good Sir: Kindly restrain yourself... your coarse language and insulting demeanor can serve only to wantonly degrade the level of this important scientific discourse... and needlessly delay our arrival at the truth... sigh... The strikingly handsome (and disarmingly charming) individual in the photos is the daring young test pilot who has most graciously consented to bring his unique and extensive skill set to bear upon this daunting problem...and courageously conduct the required aerial test work... thus affording a glimmer of hope that the List will see an end to the seemingly interminable suffering which has enveloped us all for these many months through the double curse of the never ending VG and Kolb Drop strings... Homer willing, we shall witness a merciful end to this suffering and live to see the screwdriver of reality driven squarely through the hearts of these monsters, that they shall trouble us here on this List no more... I am pleased to report that the intrepid Mr. Alexander is indeed a vigorous and dedicated member of the dedicated team of technicians which has so selflessly thrown itself at this challenge... Through the efforts of these men, and others like them, I remain confident that the relief most of us on the List so fervently seek is finally at hand... if the double stick tape holds up... noble beauford FF-076 do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:56 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Alternate 4 cycle engines Kolb guys, Seeing as how we've managed to "kick a dead horse" regarding VGs, so far beyond recognition, that our horse is barely recognizable as a former farm animal, I thought I'd pass along a recent email that was sent to the FlyGEO (engines) Yahoo! Group. Obviously, this guy flies a 2 person trike. NOTE: Things in brackets "{{ }}" are where I've done the calculations and comments for you. The G10T refers to the GEO 3 cyl 1.0L turbo. THIS IS NOT MY EMAIL, IT WAS SENT TO OUR GROUP. This COPY and PASTED EMAIL is as follows: "Well I have the Air Creation with the GEO G10T. I had the 582 previously. Performance is much better especially at "all up" weight. My base is 5500ft MSL (Normal DA of around 7500-8200!!! ) Climb rate at MTOW is better than the 582 was one up! Using cruise control and taking off at around 4500-4800rpm gives around 650fpm (my 582's WOT). I also get around 5 liters/hr {{1.3 gal/hr}} (when flying with around 30liters {{7.9 gallons}} of fuel. With a full tank the fuel is around 6-7 liters/hr {{1.6 to 1.8 gal/hr}}and my trike cruises at about 58mph hand off. I'm totally happy with the engine as the fuel consumption is so low I can almost do almost 750 miles (1200km) with one normal sized tank (60l) {{19.8 gallons}}! Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a 912S! For anyone flying from a high altitude I will not hessitate to recommend Vassili's product. I will try the G13 {{GEO's smallest 4 cylinder}} next but for now I'm happy to have the Turbo on the 1.0 liter 3 cylinder. At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}} I have had some minor things to sort out but mostly as I couldn't copy anyones engine mount due to my boot / luggage area. The engine has a rough spot at 1500. Cruise is 3600rpm one up @ 5l/h {{1.3 US Gal}} +-50% throttle. My trike is not a light trike either, it weighs 225kg {{ 496 lbs.}} empty still less than a 912. At idle the gearbox is louder than a 912 and in flight the engine has a more throaty sound. Bystanders say it sounds like a V8 Chevy ;). The only negative comment I've had is it's size looks big compared to a rotax. From what I've seen the size is misleading as it's not heavy even though it looks big. For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude. I will post pics soon and be glad to answer any questions." END OF HIS EMAIL. It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!! Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl. Just thought I'd pass this along....... Mike Welch MkIII _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:20 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Alternate 4 cycle engines Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a > 912S! > > At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the > limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of > 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO > engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to > almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}} > > For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits > inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude. > It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!! Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl. > > Mike Welch Mike W: Sounds almost too good to be true. How does he keep up with the demand for engines? With half or less fuel burn and producing more power that the 912ULS, that is a hard to beat combination. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:56 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Vg's Isn't George already occupied as the keeper of the Partegas and the Dewar's? do not archive On 23, Feb 2008, at 4:00 PM, beauford T wrote: > > > > > Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet. > > Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank? > > --------------- > Good Sir: > Kindly restrain yourself... your coarse language and insulting > demeanor > can serve only to wantonly degrade the level of this important > scientific > discourse... and needlessly delay our arrival at the truth... > sigh... > > The strikingly handsome (and disarmingly charming) individual in > the photos > is the daring young test pilot who has most graciously consented to > bring > his unique and extensive skill set to bear upon this daunting > problem...and > courageously conduct the required aerial test work... thus affording a > glimmer of hope that the List will see an end to the seemingly > interminable > suffering which has enveloped us all for these many months through the > double curse of the never ending VG and Kolb Drop strings... Homer > willing, > we shall witness a merciful end to this suffering and live to see the > screwdriver of reality driven squarely through the hearts of these > monsters, > that they shall trouble us here on this List no more... > > I am pleased to report that the intrepid Mr. Alexander is indeed a > vigorous > and dedicated member of the dedicated team of technicians which has so > selflessly thrown itself at this challenge... > > Through the efforts of these men, and others like them, I remain > confident > that the relief most of us on the List so fervently seek is finally at > hand... if the double stick tape holds up... > > noble beauford > FF-076 > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:49 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Alternate 4 cycle engines John and others, We shall soon see. It has ALWAYS been my understanding the fuel burn for the 1.0L 3 cyl. GEo engine is around 2.25 gal/hr at cruise. This is the normally aspirated engine, producing 62 HP, and around 58 ftlb of torque. From what I am lead to believe, the N.A. (normally aspirated) engine puts out the performance figures on par with a 582. I'm just going by what I'm told. I haven't got the in-flight data to back anything up. Without first hand knowledge, I don't testify to anything. But I guess there may be some that say they do have the data. (This guy that wrote that email??) GEO Metros (and Japanese Econ-boxes in general) have always been known for their ability to squeeze the crap out a gallon of petrol. Racing down the Interstate at 70 mph in an 1800 lb car, and getting 50 mpg must equate to something that is efficient. How that can actually cross over into an aircraft engine has yet to be seen by me. (Actually, I've had my GEO engine/Ivo prop mounted and running years ago, but not flying yet.) (Besides, John, is it remotely possible I might be trying to just change the "subject de jour" (VGs)?) Anyone flying a GEO that would care to chime in??? Bob? Vic in Sac? Anybody? Anybody?? Mike Welch MkIII > From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Alternate 4 cycle engines > Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:20:19 -0600 > > > Not to mention that at my altitude I have more power than a >> 912S! >> >> At one point I was climbing 1 bar in at about 85mph and VSI was off the >> limits. {{"Climbing bar" means he was receiving one barometric boost, of >> 14.7 psi boost....this would place the performance of the 1.0 Liter GEO >> engine at virtually DOUBLE it's original 62 HP & 58ft/lbs of torque, to >> almost 120 HP & 116 ft/lbs!!!}} >> > >> For the price what else is there really? Powerwise the engine fits >> inbetween a 912S and a 914 - at my altitude. > > >> It should be noted that when the turbo is added to the GEO engines that > the fuel consumption GOES DOWN, while increasing performance substantially!! > Supposedly cruise at about 4000rpm range should result to 2.0 gal/hr, less > than the 2.25 gal/hr for the non-turbo GEO 3 cyl. >> >> Mike Welch > > > Mike W: > > Sounds almost too good to be true. > > How does he keep up with the demand for engines? > > With half or less fuel burn and producing more power that the 912ULS, that > is a hard to beat combination. > > john h > mkIII > > _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:14 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop At 02:51 PM 2/23/2008, Charlie England wrote: >Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, either >from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail stall. If it >happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on its existing path >without increasing its angle of attack. Remember, the elevator is trying >to push the tail down. If that doesn't happen, the wing's angle of attack >won't increase. If the tailplane stalls, I would expect the aircraft to pitch down, no? >A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out of >stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared adequately. The >fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's 'upside down' in the >stab. Slightly different technique to achieve the same thing as the bottom >side VG trick: keep the air attached to the low-pressure side of the >control surface. DId the Cardinal tailplane actually stall or just "run out of authority"? If it stalled, I would expect it to pitch down, as I said... if it simply wasn't effective enough that's different. -Dana do not archive -- Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:28 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop From my dim memory the hearsay was that the early Cardinal would get stuck in a position on takeoff where it would just roar off the end of the runway without climbing out of ground effect. Never actually watched it happen. :) They did put those slots on the tail though. BB do not archive On 23, Feb 2008, at 8:42 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 02:51 PM 2/23/2008, Charlie England wrote: > >> Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, >> either from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail >> stall. If it happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on >> its existing path without increasing its angle of attack. >> Remember, the elevator is trying to push the tail down. If that >> doesn't happen, the wing's angle of attack won't increase. > > If the tailplane stalls, I would expect the aircraft to pitch down, > no? > >> A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran >> out of stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared >> adequately. The fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator >> that's 'upside down' in the stab. Slightly different technique to >> achieve the same thing as the bottom side VG trick: keep the air >> attached to the low-pressure side of the control surface. > > DId the Cardinal tailplane actually stall or just "run out of > authority"? If it stalled, I would expect it to pitch down, as I > said... if it simply wasn't effective enough that's different. > > -Dana > > do not archive > -- > Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species. > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:51 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: re: alternate 4 cycle engines I can't verify as to the accuracy but this is the chart that has been used for comparison between the 582 and the G10 Suzuki. I think Richard Swiderski has this on his web site too. (Has anyone heard from him lately?) scroll down for the HP chart. Scan2
________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:07 PM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: The Kolb drop Most of it's lost in the hazy mists of antiquity and the Lar's aging memory, but 8 or 10 years ago I checked out in a '68 (I think) Cardinal that had been upgraded to the horizontal stabilizer slots and I don't remember hearing about that one. Biggest thing the instructor worried about was sudden control movements on final approach. It was very touchy and easy to get porpoising on short final - a real attention getter - but, with a gentle, steady touch, it did work. I MUCH prefer the C-172. Biggest reason I only rented it 3 or 4 times was the awful lack of power. Seems (as I recall) like it had the 150 hp engine, and it had less apparent power than a C-150. With 2 up it took forever to get airborne, climb was only 300 or 400 fpm and I always felt like it was borderline on a stall. This one had the original high performance wing, too. Stalls practiced at 3500 feet AGL were scary - it would suddenly just quit and drop like a stone. I was told that the later 180 hp versions with the milder wing were very nice to fly. Wish I could have tried one. Visibility out of the Cardinal was the best of any GA aircraft I've flown in. Entry and exiting the plane were very easy, too. Almost a goodie. Lar. Do not Archive. robert bean wrote: > > From my dim memory the hearsay was that the early Cardinal would get > stuck in a position on takeoff > where it would just roar off the end of the runway without climbing > out of ground effect. > Never actually watched it happen. :) > > They did put those slots on the tail though. > BB > do not archive > > On 23, Feb 2008, at 8:42 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > >> >> At 02:51 PM 2/23/2008, Charlie England wrote: >> >>> Actually, loss of elevator effectiveness can be a real problem, >>> either from blanking in the wing's turbulence or an actual tail >>> stall. If it happens, the wing doesn't stall; it just continues on >>> its existing path without increasing its angle of attack. Remember, >>> the elevator is trying to push the tail down. If that doesn't >>> happen, the wing's angle of attack won't increase. >> >> If the tailplane stalls, I would expect the aircraft to pitch down, no? >> >>> A real world example is the Cessna Cardinal. The early ones ran out >>> of stabilator authority in the landing & couldn't be flared >>> adequately. The fix was a leading edge slat on the stabilator that's >>> 'upside down' in the stab. Slightly different technique to achieve >>> the same thing as the bottom side VG trick: keep the air attached to >>> the low-pressure side of the control surface. >> >> DId the Cardinal tailplane actually stall or just "run out of >> authority"? If it stalled, I would expect it to pitch down, as I >> said... if it simply wasn't effective enough that's different. >> >> -Dana >> >> do not archive >> -- >> Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM Building Kolb Mk III "Vamoose" www.gogittum.com www.gogittum.com/blog ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:02 PM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Kolb-List: Southeast Visit I hope all you flamers out there will forgive a message for some Kolb-ers, but not really Kolb related............. I recently contacted quite a few South Eastern Kolb drivers with the idea of visiting them on a trip to the Deep South this summer, and it's simpler to get a message to them here. Family problems in the Vancouver, B.C., Canada area have forced a change of plans, and I'm needed there. Maybe I'll get a chance to go swamp crawling and fishing with y'all next year. Lar. Do not Archive. -- Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM Building Kolb Mk III "Vamoose" www.gogittum.com www.gogittum.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.