Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Ron)
2. 06:07 AM - Re: Light'em up (Ron)
3. 06:13 AM - Re: Light'em up (Ron)
4. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Jack B. Hart)
5. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (robert bean)
6. 07:36 AM - Tax People (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com)
7. 08:09 AM - Re: Kolb Flying Video (gary aman)
8. 08:15 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (JetPilot)
9. 08:33 AM - Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) (beauford T)
10. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Eugene Zimmerman)
11. 12:39 PM - Re: Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) (JetPilot)
12. 04:43 PM - Re: Making VG's (HShack@aol.com)
13. 04:53 PM - Re: Making VG's (John Hauck)
14. 05:43 PM - IDLE RPM (Bill Vincent)
15. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: FS II perfomance (HShack@aol.com)
16. 08:47 PM - FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction? (The BaronVonEvil)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Bottom.
Ron (Txaz)
==============================
---- apilot@surewest.net wrote:
============
where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab?
--
kugelair.com
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Re Video
Hey John H, I'd sure would like to get the Colonel's opinion but he ain't down
here. :-)
Back in Nam was there that much yucking and talking, or did they smoke them right
away ?
Ron (Txaz)
do not archive
=====================================
---- possums <possums@bellsouth.net> wrote:
============
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P88Rf8_lu5A&feature=related
--
kugelair.com
Message 3
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Hey I liked that. Sure want to see that sometimes the ammo expanded is ammo well
spent. Didn't mind one bit to pay taxes for that, 5 less people that want to
do us about the same but on a bigger scale.
Do not archive
============================================
---- possums <possums@bellsouth.net> wrote:
============
At 10:14 PM 2/26/2008, you wrote:
Sorry......... meant for beauford
--
kugelair.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Mike,
It would seem obvious that from all of the first hand reports of List
members who have made their own VG's that placement on a thick wing is not
that critical. Some were placed on the rib, and others between the ribs.
Some were placed in a straight line and others were placed in split lines.
None of these people reported that they were going to take them off. This
leads one to the conclusion that home made VG's must be effective.
The advantage of the trapezoidal VG design is that they can be held in place
temporarily by black electricians tape. This makes it very easy to move the
VG line forward and backward to find the sweet spot. Performance value is
easily checked by teasing your aircraft off the ground into ground effect
while watching the ASI to see at what speed the wheels break the ground.
This can be followed by performing power off stalls.
I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can save about
$80 -> $90 by making your own.
Like most things, whether to install VG's or not is, a personal decision.
In my case I tried them and I will never take them off.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
At 07:55 PM 2/26/08 -0800, you wrote:
>
>One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of the vortex generators is CRITICAL. Like most things in flying, a very small change can make a very big difference. Using RC wing skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it might make the difference between something that just helps some, and something that makes a huge improvement in performance. If you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly.
>
>My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason that I posted
on the benefits of VG's. For those few that were just last week telling everyone
that VG's were not needed if you just flew the plane correctly, and that
the Kolb drop should be tolerated instead of corrected, your statements and
arguements are now sounding kind of weak.... Its not as much gun to gang up
on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is to gang up
and try to discredit one is it ? A few guys dug in so firmly on a wrong position
and then tried to save face, that several tried silence and discredit good
informatin. Bottom line, those that put thier own egos and group politics
above the truth did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the
flying charastics of their Kolbs.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
>
>Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166510#166510
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
There is one consideration to be made concerning VGs.
For fair weather flyers the lowered stall speed is good but sometimes
during landings in gusty air a higher stall speed will make life easier.
I had one scary landing at a flyin last summer ( What a waste, poor
turnout)
with a big balloon-up just at touchdown sending me 20' back up.
I got lucky and greased it on with power the second swoop. I stuck
with it though
and didn't bother with a needless go around. Next time I encounter that
kind of situation I will skip the flaps.
BB
On 27, Feb 2008, at 9:20 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>
> Mike,
>
> It would seem obvious that from all of the first hand reports of List
> members who have made their own VG's that placement on a thick wing
> is not
> that critical. Some were placed on the rib, and others between the
> ribs.
> Some were placed in a straight line and others were placed in split
> lines.
> None of these people reported that they were going to take them
> off. This
> leads one to the conclusion that home made VG's must be effective.
>
> The advantage of the trapezoidal VG design is that they can be held
> in place
> temporarily by black electricians tape. This makes it very easy to
> move the
> VG line forward and backward to find the sweet spot. Performance
> value is
> easily checked by teasing your aircraft off the ground into ground
> effect
> while watching the ASI to see at what speed the wheels break the
> ground.
> This can be followed by performing power off stalls.
>
> I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can
> save about
> $80 -> $90 by making your own.
>
> Like most things, whether to install VG's or not is, a personal
> decision.
> In my case I tried them and I will never take them off.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
> do not archive
>
> At 07:55 PM 2/26/08 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>> One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes
>> really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of
>> the vortex generators is CRITICAL. Like most things in flying, a
>> very small change can make a very big difference. Using RC wing
>> skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it
>> might make the difference between something that just helps some,
>> and something that makes a huge improvement in performance. If
>> you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use
>> the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized
>> for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly.
>>
>> My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason
>> that I posted on the benefits of VG's. For those few that were
>> just last week telling everyone that VG's were not needed if you
>> just flew the plane correctly, and that the Kolb drop should be
>> tolerated instead of corrected, your statements and arguements
>> are now sounding kind of weak.... Its not as much gun to gang up
>> on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is
>> to gang up and try to discredit one is it ? A few guys dug in so
>> firmly on a wrong position and then tried to save face, that
>> several tried silence and discredit good informatin. Bottom line,
>> those that put thier own egos and group politics above the truth
>> did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the
>> flying charastics of their Kolbs.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>> as you could have !!!
>>
>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166510#166510
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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After I calmed down I called the "FDOR" and left a message . The "Lady"
called me back. I told her it was an Ultralight built from junk and salvaged parts
over 10 years ago . She said put that into a letter and send it so I did (
used as much military and Legalese as I could muster up :-) ) Sent it certified
with a really bad photo of the bare cage .... So now that is Behind Me
.Thanks for all the advice ... Dave
**************
Ideas to please picky eaters.
Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Flying Video |
Bill,
What is your idle RPM on the Firestar?
----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Vincent <emailbill@chartermi.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:19:20 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Flying Video
Hi Gang
I am sending a link to my second video on
youtube. It is only 49 seconds long; because of the media format that the
original video was stored in, the video is a little blurry.
Last summer with my still camera I took some
low altitude pictures of my local river.
While landing, I decided to use the video
feature on my still camera. I held the camera in my left hand while
controlling the plane and throttle with my right hand; this was difficult
because the air was turbulent ( and the 2 deer that ran out in front of me
) :-O
Bill Vincent
FS II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Do Not Archive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxpm72IIDPM
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
Jack,
There is plenty of evidence to show that home made VG's work, I'm just not sure you are getting the full benefit as you would with landshorter VG's. The only way to know that would be to flight test the difference between home made designs and the landshorter design, which would be a huge amount of work. Joel who owns www.landshorter.com says he has tested the size, and shape of different VG's in a wind tunnel, and optimized his for small experimental sized aircraft. Landshorter VG's can be attached with double sided automobile trim tape, and moved at will, or taken off if you don't like them, Possums came up with this idea and my VG's have been on my plane with double sided tape almost a year now, I have not lost any. Position of VG's is critical to get the desired results, the landshorter VG's specify exact positions, and even on VG kits for certified aircraft, they come with a large template and instructions for exact positioning... So its very clearly important. Attached is a picture of my VG's.
I have spoken to Joel at landshorter several times on the phone, and he is a great
guy that is very technically competent. Joel is an aerodynamics engineer
and sells the VG's on the side. There is not much profit in selling 100 lexan
VG's for 100 bucks, its not a big market. Given the time Joel spends on support
and answering questions, his motivation is clearly to help aviation the community
more than to just make a couple bucks.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166567#166567
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ultralightkolbmikezvgsfloridahomestead07_11_2007_176_170.jpg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) |
I put them horizontal stab (bottom) about 2 inches forward of the hinge... I
use the wedge shaped homemade ones (a la Shackelford model) made from
aluminum sheet which are larger and more crude than the Landshorter ones...
I put only three to a side spaced 3 inches apart. They definitely add
authority to the up-elevator inputs at landing speeds. Ugly, but they work
like a hooker in fishnets...
Got 'em on the vertical stab also... makes for powerful slips...
...worth what ye paid fer it...
experimental beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: <apilot@surewest.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's
where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Videos and VG's |
On Feb 27, 2008, at 9:20 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
> I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can save
> about
> $80 -> $90 by making your own.
Yep,
Here is what i did.
Get a couple of 4 foot lexan ell corner protectors from the paint and
wall paper section of your local home improvement place and cut them
to make your own VGs.
http://picasaweb.google.com/imhisson2/VortexGenerators
Cheap Squeek Gene,
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) |
I have not tried VG's on the tail, I never run out of elevator on landing, so I
did not think I needed them. The elevator can be pretty heavy on takeoff with
two people in a short, rough field when Im trying to break ground quickly,
so given the reports from you guys I will try them on tail to see if I can bring
down the stick forces. More rudder authority at slower speeds would really
be nice for crosswinds !
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166627#166627
Message 12
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I made my latest edition out of .060 Lexan which I bent in the metal brake
then cut with metal shears. Attached with "Goop". I drilled two 1/8" holes
in the bottom of the VG so the "Goop" would get a better grip.
I also roughed up the bottom a bit with a medium sandpaper for better
adhesion. Never lost a VG.
I like your idea better.
Unless one is VERY frugal, the "landshorters" are probably the best way to
go, considering you get the measurements for placement & template.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Get a couple of 4 foot lexan ell corner protectors from the paint and wall
paper section of your local home improvement place and cut them to make your
own VGs.
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
Message 13
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Shack:
That is a good record.
How about VG'ers?
john h
Never lost a VG.
Howard Shackleford
Message 14
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Hi Gary
My 503 idles on the ground somewhere around 2,200 rpms.
What it idles at when I am landing I have no idea; because during the
landing I seldom look at the gauges.( I am too busy looking for deer :-)
Bill Vincent
FS II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Do Not Archive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxpm72IIDPM
----- Original Message -----
From: gary aman
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Flying Video
Bill,
What is your idle RPM on the Firestar?
Do Not Archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: FS II perfomance |
I wonder what you Firestar II drivers are getting for a top speed, straight
& level. I'm getting 82 mph [gps].
503 DCDI
"C" box, 3.41:1 ratio
68" 3 blade Kiev Prop
streamlined struts
heavy plane - 410 [dry]
heavy pilot -270
oh yeah...........a few cheap VG's.
How about your climb rate, if you know it. Will measure mine next time out.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
p.s. Mike Bigelow - What are yours with the HKS?
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
Message 16
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| Subject: | FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction? |
Hi All,
This subject may have been flogged to death already but I am to a point that if
I cant get the noise level in my Firestar II down to a dull roar I will have
to sell it.
I have measured the inflight cockpit noise during take-off and get about 117db
on a Radio Shack Db meter. ( Not the Highest tech device but at least it gives
a starting point.)
What can a person do to reduce the noise level? (besides glide...) Even at moderate
power settings the noise is still around 115 db or so.
I wear a helmet with a set of David-Clarks that has the Gel ear pads but for others
to hear my radio transmissions, I have to reduce power to less than 3500rpm
to be heard. I have my radio volume cranked up as high as it will go just to
hear other pilots. It can't be doing my hearing very much good.
Help!
Carlos G. [Crying or Very sad]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166684#166684
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