---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/27/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Ron) 2. 06:07 AM - Re: Light'em up (Ron) 3. 06:13 AM - Re: Light'em up (Ron) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Jack B. Hart) 5. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (robert bean) 6. 07:36 AM - Tax People (BMWBikeCrz@aol.com) 7. 08:09 AM - Re: Kolb Flying Video (gary aman) 8. 08:15 AM - Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (JetPilot) 9. 08:33 AM - Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) (beauford T) 10. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's (Eugene Zimmerman) 11. 12:39 PM - Re: Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) (JetPilot) 12. 04:43 PM - Re: Making VG's (HShack@aol.com) 13. 04:53 PM - Re: Making VG's (John Hauck) 14. 05:43 PM - IDLE RPM (Bill Vincent) 15. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: FS II perfomance (HShack@aol.com) 16. 08:47 PM - FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction? (The BaronVonEvil) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:33 AM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Bottom. Ron (Txaz) ============================== ---- apilot@surewest.net wrote: ============ where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab? -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:57 AM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Light'em up Re Video Hey John H, I'd sure would like to get the Colonel's opinion but he ain't down here. :-) Back in Nam was there that much yucking and talking, or did they smoke them right away ? Ron (Txaz) do not archive ===================================== ---- possums wrote: ============ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P88Rf8_lu5A&feature=related -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:46 AM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Light'em up Hey I liked that. Sure want to see that sometimes the ammo expanded is ammo well spent. Didn't mind one bit to pay taxes for that, 5 less people that want to do us about the same but on a bigger scale. Do not archive ============================================ ---- possums wrote: ============ At 10:14 PM 2/26/2008, you wrote: Sorry......... meant for beauford -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:54 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's Mike, It would seem obvious that from all of the first hand reports of List members who have made their own VG's that placement on a thick wing is not that critical. Some were placed on the rib, and others between the ribs. Some were placed in a straight line and others were placed in split lines. None of these people reported that they were going to take them off. This leads one to the conclusion that home made VG's must be effective. The advantage of the trapezoidal VG design is that they can be held in place temporarily by black electricians tape. This makes it very easy to move the VG line forward and backward to find the sweet spot. Performance value is easily checked by teasing your aircraft off the ground into ground effect while watching the ASI to see at what speed the wheels break the ground. This can be followed by performing power off stalls. I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can save about $80 -> $90 by making your own. Like most things, whether to install VG's or not is, a personal decision. In my case I tried them and I will never take them off. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive At 07:55 PM 2/26/08 -0800, you wrote: > >One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of the vortex generators is CRITICAL. Like most things in flying, a very small change can make a very big difference. Using RC wing skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it might make the difference between something that just helps some, and something that makes a huge improvement in performance. If you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly. > >My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason that I posted on the benefits of VG's. For those few that were just last week telling everyone that VG's were not needed if you just flew the plane correctly, and that the Kolb drop should be tolerated instead of corrected, your statements and arguements are now sounding kind of weak.... Its not as much gun to gang up on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is to gang up and try to discredit one is it ? A few guys dug in so firmly on a wrong position and then tried to save face, that several tried silence and discredit good informatin. Bottom line, those that put thier own egos and group politics above the truth did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the flying charastics of their Kolbs. > >Mike > >-------- >"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! > >Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166510#166510 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:35 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's There is one consideration to be made concerning VGs. For fair weather flyers the lowered stall speed is good but sometimes during landings in gusty air a higher stall speed will make life easier. I had one scary landing at a flyin last summer ( What a waste, poor turnout) with a big balloon-up just at touchdown sending me 20' back up. I got lucky and greased it on with power the second swoop. I stuck with it though and didn't bother with a needless go around. Next time I encounter that kind of situation I will skip the flaps. BB On 27, Feb 2008, at 9:20 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > > Mike, > > It would seem obvious that from all of the first hand reports of List > members who have made their own VG's that placement on a thick wing > is not > that critical. Some were placed on the rib, and others between the > ribs. > Some were placed in a straight line and others were placed in split > lines. > None of these people reported that they were going to take them > off. This > leads one to the conclusion that home made VG's must be effective. > > The advantage of the trapezoidal VG design is that they can be held > in place > temporarily by black electricians tape. This makes it very easy to > move the > VG line forward and backward to find the sweet spot. Performance > value is > easily checked by teasing your aircraft off the ground into ground > effect > while watching the ASI to see at what speed the wheels break the > ground. > This can be followed by performing power off stalls. > > I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can > save about > $80 -> $90 by making your own. > > Like most things, whether to install VG's or not is, a personal > decision. > In my case I tried them and I will never take them off. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > do not archive > > At 07:55 PM 2/26/08 -0800, you wrote: >> >> One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes >> really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of >> the vortex generators is CRITICAL. Like most things in flying, a >> very small change can make a very big difference. Using RC wing >> skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it >> might make the difference between something that just helps some, >> and something that makes a huge improvement in performance. If >> you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use >> the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized >> for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly. >> >> My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason >> that I posted on the benefits of VG's. For those few that were >> just last week telling everyone that VG's were not needed if you >> just flew the plane correctly, and that the Kolb drop should be >> tolerated instead of corrected, your statements and arguements >> are now sounding kind of weak.... Its not as much gun to gang up >> on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is >> to gang up and try to discredit one is it ? A few guys dug in so >> firmly on a wrong position and then tried to save face, that >> several tried silence and discredit good informatin. Bottom line, >> those that put thier own egos and group politics above the truth >> did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the >> flying charastics of their Kolbs. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >> as you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166510#166510 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:39 AM PST US From: BMWBikeCrz@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Tax People After I calmed down I called the "FDOR" and left a message . The "Lady" called me back. I told her it was an Ultralight built from junk and salvaged parts over 10 years ago . She said put that into a letter and send it so I did ( used as much military and Legalese as I could muster up :-) ) Sent it certified with a really bad photo of the bare cage .... So now that is Behind Me .Thanks for all the advice ... Dave ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:55 AM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Flying Video Bill, What is your idle RPM on the Firestar? ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Vincent Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:19:20 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Flying Video Hi Gang I am sending a link to my second video on youtube. It is only 49 seconds long; because of the media format that the original video was stored in, the video is a little blurry. Last summer with my still camera I took some low altitude pictures of my local river. While landing, I decided to use the video feature on my still camera. I held the camera in my left hand while controlling the plane and throttle with my right hand; this was difficult because the air was turbulent ( and the 2 deer that ran out in front of me ) :-O Bill Vincent FS II Upper Peninsula of Michigan Do Not Archive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxpm72IIDPM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:06 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's From: "JetPilot" Jack, There is plenty of evidence to show that home made VG's work, I'm just not sure you are getting the full benefit as you would with landshorter VG's. The only way to know that would be to flight test the difference between home made designs and the landshorter design, which would be a huge amount of work. Joel who owns www.landshorter.com says he has tested the size, and shape of different VG's in a wind tunnel, and optimized his for small experimental sized aircraft. Landshorter VG's can be attached with double sided automobile trim tape, and moved at will, or taken off if you don't like them, Possums came up with this idea and my VG's have been on my plane with double sided tape almost a year now, I have not lost any. Position of VG's is critical to get the desired results, the landshorter VG's specify exact positions, and even on VG kits for certified aircraft, they come with a large template and instructions for exact positioning... So its very clearly important. Attached is a picture of my VG's. I have spoken to Joel at landshorter several times on the phone, and he is a great guy that is very technically competent. Joel is an aerodynamics engineer and sells the VG's on the side. There is not much profit in selling 100 lexan VG's for 100 bucks, its not a big market. Given the time Joel spends on support and answering questions, his motivation is clearly to help aviation the community more than to just make a couple bucks. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166567#166567 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ultralightkolbmikezvgsfloridahomestead07_11_2007_176_170.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:51 AM PST US From: "beauford T" Subject: Kolb-List: Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) I put them horizontal stab (bottom) about 2 inches forward of the hinge... I use the wedge shaped homemade ones (a la Shackelford model) made from aluminum sheet which are larger and more crude than the Landshorter ones... I put only three to a side spaced 3 inches apart. They definitely add authority to the up-elevator inputs at landing speeds. Ugly, but they work like a hooker in fishnets... Got 'em on the vertical stab also... makes for powerful slips... ...worth what ye paid fer it... experimental beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:38 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:44 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's On Feb 27, 2008, at 9:20 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can save > about > $80 -> $90 by making your own. Yep, Here is what i did. Get a couple of 4 foot lexan ell corner protectors from the paint and wall paper section of your local home improvement place and cut them to make your own VGs. http://picasaweb.google.com/imhisson2/VortexGenerators Cheap Squeek Gene, ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tail VG's (formerly Firestar videos & VGs) From: "JetPilot" I have not tried VG's on the tail, I never run out of elevator on landing, so I did not think I needed them. The elevator can be pretty heavy on takeoff with two people in a short, rough field when Im trying to break ground quickly, so given the reports from you guys I will try them on tail to see if I can bring down the stick forces. More rudder authority at slower speeds would really be nice for crosswinds ! Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166627#166627 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:38 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Making VG's I made my latest edition out of .060 Lexan which I bent in the metal brake then cut with metal shears. Attached with "Goop". I drilled two 1/8" holes in the bottom of the VG so the "Goop" would get a better grip. I also roughed up the bottom a bit with a medium sandpaper for better adhesion. Never lost a VG. I like your idea better. Unless one is VERY frugal, the "landshorters" are probably the best way to go, considering you get the measurements for placement & template. Howard Shackleford FS II SC Get a couple of 4 foot lexan ell corner protectors from the paint and wall paper section of your local home improvement place and cut them to make your own VGs. **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:44 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Making VG's Shack: That is a good record. How about VG'ers? john h Never lost a VG. Howard Shackleford ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:42 PM PST US From: "Bill Vincent" Subject: Kolb-List: IDLE RPM Hi Gary My 503 idles on the ground somewhere around 2,200 rpms. What it idles at when I am landing I have no idea; because during the landing I seldom look at the gauges.( I am too busy looking for deer :-) Bill Vincent FS II Upper Peninsula of Michigan Do Not Archive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxpm72IIDPM ----- Original Message ----- From: gary aman Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Flying Video Bill, What is your idle RPM on the Firestar? Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:24 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FS II perfomance I wonder what you Firestar II drivers are getting for a top speed, straight & level. I'm getting 82 mph [gps]. 503 DCDI "C" box, 3.41:1 ratio 68" 3 blade Kiev Prop streamlined struts heavy plane - 410 [dry] heavy pilot -270 oh yeah...........a few cheap VG's. How about your climb rate, if you know it. Will measure mine next time out. Howard Shackleford FS II SC p.s. Mike Bigelow - What are yours with the HKS? **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:38 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction? From: "The BaronVonEvil" Hi All, This subject may have been flogged to death already but I am to a point that if I cant get the noise level in my Firestar II down to a dull roar I will have to sell it. I have measured the inflight cockpit noise during take-off and get about 117db on a Radio Shack Db meter. ( Not the Highest tech device but at least it gives a starting point.) What can a person do to reduce the noise level? (besides glide...) Even at moderate power settings the noise is still around 115 db or so. I wear a helmet with a set of David-Clarks that has the Gel ear pads but for others to hear my radio transmissions, I have to reduce power to less than 3500rpm to be heard. I have my radio volume cranked up as high as it will go just to hear other pilots. It can't be doing my hearing very much good. Help! Carlos G. 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