---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/17/08: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:53 AM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (Denny Rowe) 2. 03:57 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly (Denny Rowe) 3. 04:01 AM - Re: Vamoose for Sale (Larry Bourne) 4. 04:04 AM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (Larry Bourne) 5. 05:01 AM - fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague) 6. 05:20 AM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (Russ Kinne) 7. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly (beauford T) 8. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly (John Hauck) 9. 06:03 AM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (John Hauck) 10. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (pj.ladd) 11. 09:02 AM - fire fly questions (greg@skyelink.com) 12. 09:10 AM - Landing Stalls (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 13. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (John Hauck) 14. 09:32 AM - Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL) 15. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (pj.ladd) 16. 10:34 AM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague) 17. 10:35 AM - Re: Landing Stalls (Dana Hague) 18. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Dana Hague) 19. 10:45 AM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (John Hauck) 20. 10:53 AM - Re: Landing Stalls (John Hauck) 21. 11:49 AM - Re: Landing Stalls (Bob Noyer) 22. 12:32 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (David Key) 23. 01:46 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Jimmy Young) 24. 02:19 PM - Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (Thom Riddle) 25. 02:25 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (Dana Hague) 26. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (HShack@aol.com) 27. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Jimmy Young) 28. 03:59 PM - Re: New Kolbee (Hose.A) 29. 04:22 PM - Size of messages (Jmmy Hankinson) 30. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (John Hauck) 31. 04:49 PM - Re: Size of messages (John Hauck) 32. 05:56 PM - Re: Size of messages (Mike Welch) 33. 06:02 PM - 6 gallon tanks in a FS II (Jimmy Young) 34. 06:19 PM - Re: Size of messages (grantr) 35. 06:33 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (Wade Lawicki) 36. 06:45 PM - Re: Size of messages (herb) 37. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum (robert bean) 38. 09:00 PM - Re: Firestar Versus Firefly (Don G) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:11 AM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum > > OK, I can't stand it any more- Who is Hose,B > Larry C > do not archive >> > Ahhh, nevermind. :-p Denny That was a close one! do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:59 AM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly Group, I have had a question about the safety of the Firefly in windy conditions. Anyone have a fair amount in a Firefly AND a Firestar? Just pondering the differences. The Firestar weighs more but it also has more wing area. Anyone know which one has the highest wing loading. Lastly, If a Firestar and a Firefly were being flown cross country would a Firefly be more vulnerable if the wind got a little brisk, or would they both behave about the same. Ed FF#62 Ed, This is worth less than you payed for it myself only having flown an old original Twinstar and my own Mk-3, but I would guess not much differance between a Fly and a FS. In fact with the smaller wing I would not be surprised if the quicker handling Firefly would be easier in rough air as well as on the ground in high wind. Less wing for the wind to blow around. Denny Rowe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:15 AM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vamoose for Sale Will be ?? My ears been burning for years. :-) Lar. Do not Archive. possums wrote: > > At 10:50 PM 3/16/2008, you wrote: >> >> Thanks for the thought, Russ. Looks like I'll be going north this >> summer...........not enuf money > > > This is funny - I don't care who you are: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvIGy9w0K4s > > Larry ............ stay in touch with us or we'll be talkin' bout you. > > -- Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com www.gogittum.com/blog ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:14 AM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum After they're all done with you, you been HoseD. Do not Archive. Denny Rowe wrote: > > >> >> OK, I can't stand it any more- Who is Hose,B >> Larry C >> do not archive >>> >> > > > Ahhh, nevermind. :-p > Denny > That was a close one! > > do not archive > > -- Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com www.gogittum.com/blog ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:44 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank I'm adding an auxiliary tank to my UltraStar... I have a pretty good idea of how I'll plumb it, but I'd like to collect some other opinions. My US has the stock setup with two 1.75 gallon tanks under my legs. I'm at a bit of a loss why the valves (the ones that plug into the tanks through a rubber bushing) have two outlets. The manual says to cap one side of one tank's valve, connect the two tanks together, and run the remaining outlet to the engine. When I got my plane, there was no cap, the tanks were connected as per the manual, and both outlets were connected together via a "Y" fitting, thence to the engine. Other than replacing all the tubing, I left it the way it was (but see below). I've considered moving the bulb primer to one leg of the "Y". This would require closing the other tank valve when priming, but with both valves open would give the fuel a path around the primer bulb in case of blockage (such a blockage in a brand new primer bulb almost ended my first flight before I made it around the pattern once). Thoughts? But on to the real reason for this post. The new 1.5 gallon (for a total of 5 gallons) tank will be mounted, quick release, to the rear of the seat (I'm actually mounting it to the seat back itself as I don't want to do any welding on the cage). I'm also using a quick disconnect connector in the fuel line so I can remove the tank if I need to carry it somewhere to be filled, for example if I land out somewhere and have to get fuel. The separate removable tank also makes oil mixing easy. Since this tank will be above the other tanks, I'll open the valve to drain it down when the others are half empty. The issue is plumbing. The obvious thought is to simply connect it via a tee fitting into the fuel lines. However, I'm concerned that once the aux tank is empty the fuel pump will start sucking air from the aux tank instead of fuel from the lower tanks, which would be a bad thing. :) The alternative, which seems the best approach, is to connect the aux tank into a new fitting on top of one of the main tanks... but I'm open to other thoughts and suggestions. I'm also naturally concerned with getting any debris from the drilling out of the tank (I'd rather not have to drain and remove it, etc.), and drilling large holes in thin plastic is a PITA anyway, so my thought is to drill the hole with a sharpened piece of tubing rather than a conventional drill. -Dana -- Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:12 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Don't you recognize our National Anthem?? -- "Hose A, can't you see --" On Mar 17, 2008, at 6:49 AM, Denny Rowe wrote: > > > >> OK, I can't stand it any more- Who is Hose,B >> Larry C >> do not archive >>> > > > Ahhh, nevermind. :-p > Denny > That was a close one! > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:51 AM PST US From: "beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly Ed: Routinely operate the Fly in pretty fair (15-25 mph) breezes...no problem except for folding and unfolding the wings in airish conditions while working alone.. IMHO, that is the single most problematic part of operating it in winds. On landings in higher crosswinds the first thing it used to run out of was rudder, but the VG's on the vertical tail have improved that situation. Mine has the big 15 inch chord ailerons and they seem to give plenty of authority to handle crosswinds. I never droop 'em while landing in crosswinds, and I would sure wheel land it with some power if the crosswinds were stout. Never flew a Firestar, but usually a shortwing gives a better ride in rough air...I know from experience that's the case in Pipers. Not sure what cross country vulnearability you are referring to... generally, if you can get it off and back onto the ground in reusable condition, the cross country part (aside from the fascinating 25 mph groundspeeds one occasionally sees) is just a matter of how rough you like it and what you had for breakfast. WWYPFI breezy beauford ff-076 ----- Original Message ----- From: DAquaNut@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly I have had a question about the safety of the Firefly in windy conditions. wing loading. ...cross country would a Firefly be more vulnerable if the wind got a little brisk, or would they both behave about the same. Ed FF#62 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:11 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly Denny: That is my impression between the two aircraft. The FF is better in rough air, as is the SS, with their wings 5 feet shorter than the FS.. john h mkIII In fact with the smaller wing I would not be surprised if the quicker handling Firefly would be easier in rough air as well as on the ground in high wind. Less wing for the wind to blow around. Denny Rowe ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:10 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank > I'm adding an auxiliary tank to my UltraStar... I have a pretty good idea > of how I'll plumb it, but I'd like to collect some other opinions. > > -Dana Dana: First mod I did to my US a couple weeks after I started flying it in 1984, was add a third 1.75 gal go cart tank inside the airframe above the engine and behind my head. No welding required. I mounted it using aluminum tubing and adel clamps. Used gravity to drain into the main tanks when required. Believe I T'd into the main fuel line, used the valve on the tank to control the fuel. Worked great. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:21 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Don't you recognize our National Anthem?? -- "Hose A, can't you see --" Hi Russ, these Mexicans get everywhere,` Jose, can you see.....` Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: fire fly questions From: greg@skyelink.com Hi all Got a new firefly being bilt by bryan a costom air. any one know if you can use aviation fuel in the mix in a rotax 447. How much different it is to fly vs a mark 3x that i currently own,do they have any nasty stall tendency. any imfo would be great still wont to have a flyin in the spring for any one who wonts to attend. if the wind ever stops blowing in virgina i will send pic so everyone can see the field. it works great for me and i am a new pilot of only 35 hrs tt. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:29 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all just call it a "stall" that is really what it is. My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibility. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately describing it. I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest decent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjust to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and they increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up gentle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomplish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing. The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also produce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the plane quicker than the reduced stall speed will help. Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired landing point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjusting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a power failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approach it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as necessary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to adjust your pitch according to your flap usage. As always worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more time to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit easier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400 David Ok. So tell us why. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on landing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400 Joe As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will serve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till you are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the power. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce the power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at the same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the first time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with lots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notch of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with no flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings but I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then approach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm being too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too fast to flaps and no power. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: DAquaNut@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Joe, Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground. The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a conventional craft you are asking for trouble. Good Luck, Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80* today ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:00 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum > these Mexicans get everywhere,` Jose, can you see.....` > > Cheers > > Pat Patrick: How is your flying and your aircraft coming along? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:59 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help From: "Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL" "grantr" wrote: << He has military headsets and 1 GA headset. I have comtronic which is not compatable. I bought a cord thats suppose to adapt the GA headset to my comtronics. The head set works but the GA mic doesnt work. >> Hi, Grant - Military headsets and civilian GA headsets operate with different impedance levels - that is why the military sets won't work with our GA intercoms. And the Comtronics intercom will only work with Comtronics headsets. I know this, because I have a set (2 helmets w/built-in headsets and intercom). After I finished my initial 40 hours of flight testing, I no longer used the helmet, and began using a regular GA headset. I found that it would not work with the Comtronics intercom box. Like you, I purchased (from Comtronics) a patch cord that interfaced between my GA headset and the intercom, but my GA headsets STILL did not work. Just like you said, you can hear, but the mike does not work. When I called Comtronics to ask them why, they revealed to me that because of impedance differences between their headsets and GA headsets, the Comtronics intercom is not compatible with GA headsets. ("Great," I thought - "why couldn't they have told me this BEFOREhand?") At least they refunded me my $45 for the patch cord. My solution was to simply buy a regular GA intercom box. Dennis Kirby Mark-3, 912ul, Powerfin-72 in Cedar Crest, NM do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:24 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum How is your flying and your aircraft coming along?>> John, you really know how to hurt a guy. After finally getting the plane ,and me, rechecked out and certicated with test flying etc all done just before Xmas. I have run into electrical problems involving the fitting of a larger battery, in a different place of course. This should be done in the next couple of days and then I shall have to recalculate the C of G and then with luck, Wx permitting, which is unlikely according to the forecast I may be able to fly. Providing the strip is not still under water. We have floods for the 3rd time this year. Gales and Very low temps forecast for Easter. Looking back. I wish that I had bought a plane from the second hand market and then I would at least have continued to fly. during the protracted rebuild and the follow on problems. Hindsight is always 20/20 vision. Have fun on you planned trek to MV and beyond. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:50 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank At 09:00 AM 3/17/2008, John Hauck wrote: >First mod I did to my US a couple weeks after I started flying it in 1984, >was add a third 1.75 gal go cart tank inside the airframe above the engine >and behind my head. No welding required. I mounted it using aluminum >tubing and adel clamps. Used gravity to drain into the main tanks when >required. Believe I T'd into the main fuel line, used the valve on the >tank to control the fuel. Worked great. Great minds think alike :) I had considered doing the Adel clamp thing, but the shape of the tank and the routing of the control cables, etc., seems to make the seat back mounting more logical, plus I have some nice aluminum channels that slip perfectly over the tank flanges so I can slide it in instead of bolting it... the tank I'm using is here: http://fluids.flambeau.com/multipurpose_tanks/6.0_quart.html I also considered adding a new 5 gallon tank above the engine and using the original tank space for storage, but that was more work than I care to do at the moment. You didn't have any trouble with sucking air when the aux tank is empty? -Dana -- "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:25 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls At 12:07 PM 3/17/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these >planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level >of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast... My background is GA (Taylorcraft, mostly) but that was 15 years ago... but 10 hours flying a borrowed Quicksilver got me more than ready for my first flight in my UltraStar. Compared to a GA bird, the Quick's kinda like a Kolb, only more so (you just dive at the runway, 'cuz no matter what you do it's not going to float!). -Dana -- "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:55 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help At 12:27 PM 3/17/2008, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL wrote: >And the Comtronics intercom will only work with Comtronics headsets... >because of impedance differences between their headsets and GA headsets, >the Comtronics intercom is not compatible... Funny, though, my Comtronics helmet works perfectly with my Icom A24 radio, which also supposedly works with GA headsets. -Dana -- "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:08 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank > You didn't have any trouble with sucking air when the aux tank is empty? > > -Dana Dana: No. Neither did the US. ;-) Been 24 years so details are a little fuzzy. IIRC I turned off the fuel at the aux tank when transfer was complete. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:24 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls Dana: Not to disagree, too much, but Kolbs will also float, especially when you do not want them to. If you are in a tight situation and your Kolb has no brakes, the Kolbs will float forever. Amazing what ground effect and Kolbs will do. Get her right down there a foot or so off the sod and she will float. My MKIII with 40 degrees of flaps and it will float. One of the secrets of getting a Kolb to float is to shoot your approach a little hotter than normal. I judge others landing mistakes by my own many times. This flight to TNK and back I had a lot of time to think and to fly and land. We were taught to hover a rotary wing by looking out ahead of the aircraft, not down at the ground. We were taught to land them the same way, looking out ahead of the aircraft. Landing a Kolb is no different in this respect. Look out at the end of the runway when landing and the Kolb will gentlely kiss moma earth. Look down at the ground where she is going to drop in, and that is probably what she will do. Try it both ways and see what happens. Hard to judge distance looking down. john h mkIII Compared to a GA bird, the Quick's kinda like a Kolb, only more so (you just dive at the runway, 'cuz no matter what you do it's not going to float!). -Dana ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:41 AM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls I'm trying to remember in navy flight training, pre jets!, that we were told to look out of cockpit, 30-30...meaning 30 degrees down, and 30 from straight ahead on landing. My old eyeballs got no calibration markers left, but some residuals work fer me....never bent gear legs on FireFly. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:36 PM PST US From: David Key Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest i t for a altering my opinion. But I also have to disagree about changing the flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short. I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in different sports. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: L anding StallsDate: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400 The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all jus t call it a "stall" that is really what it is. My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these p lanes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibilit y. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately describing it. I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest de cent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjus t to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and th ey increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up g entle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomp lish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing . The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also pr oduce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the pla ne quicker than the reduced stall speed will help. Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired lan ding point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjus ting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a powe r failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approac h it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as nece ssary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to ad just your pitch according to your flap usage. As always worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more tim e to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit ea sier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it . From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400 David Ok. So tell us why. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on land ing. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400 Joe As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will s erve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till yo u are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the pow er. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce t he power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at th e same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the firs t time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with l ots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notc h of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with n o flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings b ut I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then a pproach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm bei ng too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too fast to flaps and no power. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: DAquaNut@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Joe, Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground. The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a c onventional craft you are asking for trouble. Good Luck, Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80* today It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:18 PM PST US From: "Jimmy Young" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank Dana, FYI, I just installed 2 new 6 gal tanks in my Firestar II. With regards to drilling holes, I had a lot of plastic cuttings in my new tanks after I drilled the holes with a "Unibit" drill bit. I washed it all out with some gas. So, from my experience if you cut holes, you will probably get some debri in the tank. Jimmy Young FS II Houston ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:47 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum From: "Thom Riddle" Regarding "missing" center section between wings on MkIII: Attached are a couple photos of Bob Bean's MKIII (and my Allegro) with "missing" center section. You can't see it in the photo very well but Bob made some Lexan end plates (airflow fences) that are the shape of the airfoil plus about 2-3" all around. According to my memory, the addition of the airflow fences made a very big improvement compared to flying it without the fences. BB can chime in any time if my memory is in error. -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170467#170467 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bob_bean_and_mkiii__bethany_airpark_129.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/bean_mkiii_and_allegro__bethany_510.jpg ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:59 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls At 01:49 PM 3/17/2008, John Hauck wrote: >Dana: > >Not to disagree, too much, but Kolbs will also float, especially when you >do not want them to. If you are in a tight situation and your Kolb has no >brakes, the Kolbs will float forever Actually it was the Quicksilver I was referring to that didn't float-- at all. My US isn't that bad, though nothing compared to my old T-Craft... T-Crafts were notorious floaters. With only 10 hours in it, I'm still working out my preferred technique in the US, what with no flaps and slips not really doing much of anything except changing the angle the wind hits my face :) -Dana -- If aliens are smart enough to travel through space, why do they keep abducting the dumbest people on earth? ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:18 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank Where'd you get the tanks & how much? TNK told me their 6 gal. tanks would not fit a FS II........ Howard Shackleford FS II SC In a message dated 3/17/2008 4:46:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jdy100@comcast.net writes: FYI, I just installed 2 new 6 gal tanks in my Firestar II. **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:02 PM PST US From: "Jimmy Young" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank Howard- I got them from Travis at TNK. They fit, but it is a tight fit. Dan Glib in Arizona owns a FS II and he gave me some advice which worked pretty well. I'll send you off-line a pic he sent of his installation that helped me. At his suggestion, I put velcro strips on the tanks where the cage tubing comes in contact to prevent wear, as the 6 gal tanks are not as thick walled as the 5 gal tanks are. It worked out nice. The tanks actually hold 6.5 gal with a little air-room left, so it really gives you 13 gal. If anyone else is interested in the pic, I've sent one to the Matronics Photoshare site, but it says it will take a few days to post it. Or, you can email me off line and I'll send you one. Jimmy Young FS II Houston ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:36 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New Kolbee From: "Hose.A" Thanks Lanny. I've been talking to some folks about that very thing. Just gotta figure out how it needs to be done. -------- HoseA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170490#170490 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:22 PM PST US From: "Jmmy Hankinson" Subject: Kolb-List: Size of messages Fellow Koblers With the chance of being thrown into the brier patch. I would like to ask those who's messages are in very small print to if possible to increase the size of their printing. Some of us are older and it is hard to read some of the e-mails. I am 70 and use bifocals and I am in that group. To those that can and will, thanks. Jimmy Hankinson 912 863 7384 N6007L, Firefly JYL Sylvania, Ga. Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:55 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank Jimmy: You can attach a photo to the email you post to the Kolb List. john h If anyone else is interested in the pic, I've sent one to the Matronics Photoshare site, but it says it will take a few days to post it. Or, you can email me off line and I'll send you one. Jimmy Young FS II Houston ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:49 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Size of messages Hi Jimmy: I'm a year behind you and equipped with bifocals also. My Outlook Express seems to dictate that the font size is dictated by the size of font in the msg I am responding to. If I go above the referenced msg, then my normal font size appears. Hang in there and you guys print bigger. There is a way to increase the size of print on a web page, but can not remember how to do it. One of these young whipper snappers will likely jump in here and help us out. john h mkIII I am 70 and use bifocals and I am in that group. Jimmy Hankinson ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:23 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Size of messages Jimmy, This is what I was complaining about recently, when I asked how to be on the "rich text" format from Matronics. My email server (or something) WON'T let me use the "rich text". ( The rich text format allows me to increase the font size, and color). Unless I send an email in "plain text" format, it gets sent back rejected. This dumb tiny print is all I can muster. I'm blind as a bat, too, without my reading glasses. Apologies, Jimmy. Mike Welch With the chance of being thrown into the brier patch. I would like to ask those whos messages are in very small print to if possible to increase the size of their printing. Some of us are older and it is hard to read some of the e-mails. I am 70 and use bifocals and I am in that group. To those that can and will, thanks. Jimmy Hankinson Do Not Archive http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:02 PM PST US From: "Jimmy Young" Subject: Kolb-List: 6 gallon tanks in a FS II Replying to >Re: Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank John, Here is the pic of 2 - 6 gallon tanks purchased from TNK in a FS II, hope it makes it. I Put mine in the same way. Credit for the pic goes to Dan G. in AZ Jimmy Young FS II Houston ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:03 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Size of messages From: "grantr" I am not sure what you are using. I use the kolb list forums and do not use email to check this list. http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=5 Anyway the easy way to enlarge the text when you are in your Internet explorer web browser is to go to your View menu beside the edit menu and left click it. This menu is at the top left of your screen. Then scroll down to text size and chose largest. That should have the text large enough for you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170519#170519 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Landing Stalls From: "Wade Lawicki" Dana, Depends on what model Quick, I have a 2 place Sprint that with float for what feels like forever! Of course that is comparing it to my FS. Fly Safe, Wade -------- Fly Safe! Wade Nashville Tn. FS 2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170520#170520 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:46 PM PST US From: herb Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Size of messages Most mail programs allow for text size and color... I have used Eudora for some months now and find it to have more features than I can use.. Herb I do not remember the letters on the eye chart?? :-) Herb At 07:53 PM 3/17/2008, you wrote: > > >Jimmy, > >This is what I was complaining about recently, when I asked how to >be on the "rich text" format from Matronics. My email server (or >something) WON'T let me use the "rich text". ( The rich text format >allows me to increase the font size, and color). > > Unless I send an email in "plain text" format, it gets sent back > rejected. This dumb tiny print is all I can muster. I'm blind as > a bat, too, without my reading glasses. > >Apologies, Jimmy. > >Mike Welch > > >With the chance of being thrown into the brier patch. I would like >to ask those who's messages are in very small print to if possible >to increase the size of their printing. Some of us are older and it >is hard to read some of the e-mails. I am 70 and use bifocals and I >am in that group. > >To those that can and will, thanks. > >Jimmy Hankinson > > >Do Not Archive > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > >http://forums.matronics.com > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge >with star power. >http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:27 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum I put the fences on after flying it with no center section. I could tell a lot of lift was being lost. The fences prevent spillage off the wing roots. I figure I have the best arrangement due to better airflow and less drag. Any airfoil that has an engine popping up through it can't provide much lift. I have since thought about a tip modification but won't mess with that until I bash something. BB On 17, Mar 2008, at 5:15 PM, Thom Riddle wrote: > > Regarding "missing" center section between wings on MkIII: > > Attached are a couple photos of Bob Bean's MKIII (and my Allegro) > with "missing" center section. You can't see it in the photo very > well but Bob made some Lexan end plates (airflow fences) that are > the shape of the airfoil plus about 2-3" all around. According to > my memory, the addition of the airflow fences made a very big > improvement compared to flying it without the fences. BB can chime > in any time if my memory is in error. > > -------- > Thom Riddle > N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL > N197BG FS1/447 > -------------------- > Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, > not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason > and your own common sense. > - Buddha > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170467#170467 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > bob_bean_and_mkiii__bethany_airpark_129.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > bean_mkiii_and_allegro__bethany_510.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly From: "Don G" I have always believe the FireFly was about the best little airplane at handling crosswinds of anything in the 500 lb class....or maybe even 600 ponders... If you want to see from the pilots seat how the Fly works in a 25 knot 90 degree wind...take a look at the video on my brothers page here http://www.dgmodels.rchomepage.com/index.htm its about halfway down....past the models.. Look close at the very begining at the windsock...standing straight as a board...And the FireFly was completely predictable and no sweat to control at all. there were 2 Firestar owners there that day...hanger mates , and they both told me after I was done they would dare fly in this wind... And for what its worth, My Kitfox speedster is 700 lbs empty and is way too much of a handful on the ground to fly comfortably in the same conditions. It will do it...but its a thrill....and more risky. FireStar land slower, and lifts more though, so for cross country...it might be a better pick. with a 503 it oughtta be almost as fast as a FFly. Hard to say. I alway thought if I build another FireFly, I would not cut the wing spar tube and leave it as shipped, which would add almost 2 feet of wing.( 20 inchs if I remember right ..not quite a FireStar...but all you would need is to add a rib on each side and you make better use of the materials sent, and The Fly would land a tad slower and haul a bit more without getting mushy...sort of a cross between them.......... Splitting hairs maybe.... -------- Don G. Central Illinois Kitfox IV Speedster Luscombe 8A http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170554#170554 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.