Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:44 AM - Firestar Project (william sullivan)
2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (gary aman)
3. 06:00 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (John Hauck)
4. 06:17 AM - FireFly Website (Jack B. Hart)
5. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (John Hauck)
6. 07:04 AM - Re: FireFly Website (George Alexander)
7. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (boyd)
8. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: FireFly Website (Jack B. Hart)
9. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
10. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Jack B. Hart)
11. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Robert Laird)
12. 02:05 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (David Key)
13. 03:03 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (David Key)
14. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (boyd)
15. 06:31 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
16. 06:31 PM - Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (grantr)
17. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Denny Rowe)
18. 11:37 PM - Re: 6 gallon tanks in a FS II (Dan G.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Firestar Project |
Just an update on the Firestar project. Both wings have had the holes patched.
One wing has a slight dent in a rib, behind the thickest part on the top. I don't
think it will bother anything, and I'm certain no tubes were broken, so I'll
leave it alone for now. Both wings are now on the plane, in the folded position.
I had the muffler and manifold sandblasred for $20. I welded a "star" crack
in the muffler intake elbow with a gasless MIG. Very delicate welding- I think
the material is brittle, and thinned out. A lot of exterior pitting- salt
air, maybe, as it came from Long Island and was flown frequently over salt water.
The manifold was drilled for two more holes, and installed with a total of
6 bolts and new gaskets. The muffler is painted but not installed- too dark
last night and raining today. The muffler was rubbing on the fan shroud- I'll
have to space it out. The new tires I installed had cracks between the ribs, so
Aircraft Spruce immediately exchanged them.
Excellent service from them. I have the option of having a ground adjustable AOL
by drilling a couple more holes in the front mounting adapter channels. It
could give me a total of 3 available AOL's, if I set the aileron control rods
correctly. Has anyone ever tried this? Keep in mind that the wing is 2 1/2" back
from standard mounting. The gap seal will have to wait until I figure out whether
I will build or borrow a trailer. I still have to set and weld new aileron
control rods, switch out the bent landing gear legs, fix the static port on
the ASI, and mostly wait out the miserable weather.
I am also eyeing the original wings for repair and modification, as my living
room is empty again. The wife is still tolerating me, but I might be pushing
it.
Bill Sullivan
FS l
Windsor Locks, Ct.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Just a thought here;
On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and held
it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to hold
the speed and angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed
this way .It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff
roll.
----- Original Message ----
From: lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:34:01 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help
grantr wrote:
> I have had a few good comments and tips. Does anyone else want to chime in? Come
on guys i know you all have some sort of technique. :)
Well I can relate my FS II time, hopefully some of which will be pertinent to the
mark III.
It definitely is a tailwheel airplane, tho it's quite docile, so it certainly can
get wild on you if ithe tail goes ape in one direction or the other. I had
one or two of the back/forth takeoffs in the FS II when I was very early on with
it, tho fortunately didn't get off the runway or anything. Differential braking
saved the bacon on one of the takeoffs. Slowly applying throttle helps a
great deal and was the technique used since then.
As for the landing, the FS II in particular is a low-inertia design, so it lands
a lot more like an ultralight than the big iron. You run out of energy pretty
quick in the roundout and flare, but you don't necessarily have to drive it
onto the runway either (unless you're wheel landing it in some wind).
I'd try a slower roundout to get a good idea of what things should look like at
first. Assist that with a little bit of power to simulate a higher-inertia plane
to slow the roundout down. Do this for a while to get used to it. Then start
practicing without power for the real deal...
As for the stall, I don't recall there being anything strange about it, it's very
conventional with no surprises. The FS II does give you all the warning signs,
mushy controls, lightness in the butt, suddenly lots quieter, just like any
other plane, but only for a very short time. Don't blink or you'll miss em!
Again, typical of low-inertia planes.
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170838#170838
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Gary A:
Had to sit here a minute to think how I made my normal takeoffs.
Usually, depending on the airstrip, I keep the throttle centered, when
the tail starts up, I keep it level, at flying speed a little aft stick,
and we are flying. At Lakeland and Oshkosh, we usually pick up a main
wheel a little early to coax the aircraft into flying a little early.
john h
mkIII
On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick
back and held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the
stick forward to hold the speed and angle of climb desired.Everyone
who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a soft field
takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll.
Message 4
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Kolbers,
I just up dated my web site. I write my own htmls and I developed the web
site using a machine that is now about 12 years old. It had a 800 x 600
pixel screen. I used some width control statements that used percent
instead of the number of pixels. For those who had the newer or wider
screens, this caused the pages to become very stretched from side to
side.
I purchased a couple of new computers, and I could see the effect. I have
corrected all the htmls so that they are forced into 800 pixel widths and I
removed all full page length commands. This compacts the pages, which
should make them easier to read.
If you would like to see the new look, it can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly.html
Almost warm enough to fly, but we have seen nothing but rain for a couple
of days.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Morning Gang:
"Usually, depending on the airstrip, I keep the throttle centered, when
the tail starts up, I"
Naw, I don't keep the throttle centered on takeoff, I keep the control
stick centered, but I do have the throttle WAO. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Website |
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
> Kolbers,
>
> I just up dated my web site. I write my own htmls and I developed the web
> site using a machine that is now about 12 years old. It had a 800 x 600
> pixel screen. I used some width control statements that used percent
> instead of the number of pixels. For those who had the newer or wider
> screens, this caused the pages to become very stretched from side to
> side.
>
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
Jack:
New computers...... Major $ expenditure
Hours to convert..... Labor Hour expenditure
Service to the Kolb family...... PRICELESS!!!!!
Thanks, Jack! Great Job!
--------
George Alexander
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170908#170908
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
I'm Open for an education here. but I was told that the shortest take off
roll, at least from a hard surface, was to get the tail up after adding
power, and this would allow you to accelerate faster because of reduced
drag on the wing, then pull the stick back when up to take off speed. I
have done testing, taking off clean, 20 & 40 Deg flaps. Both clean and 40
deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff roll, and 20
deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter. The explanation was that even though
40 deg of flaps should allow you to fly slower because of greater lift,
the extra drag caused a much slower acceleration. Now I can hear you
thinking between the lines. if 40 was slower why not 20 Deg of flaps being
shorter as well.. The explanation would be that if you chart the lift to
drag ratio on a chart,,,, 20 deg of flaps produces quite a bit of added
lift with only a small drag penalty,,, while 40 deg of flaps, while
producing a little more lift than 20 deg, is affected by much higher drag
ratio. In getting a tail dragger endorsement in a supper cub,, the shortest
takeoff was starting with 10 deg flaps, getting the tail up to reduce drag
on the wings then, at the same time, pulling the stick back while adding
additional flaps. Again this if from a hard surface runway,,,, soft field
takeoff would be quite different.
Boyd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Just a thought here;
On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and
held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to
hold the speed and angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was
instructed this way .It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the
shortest takeoff roll.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Website |
At 07:01 AM 3/19/08 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Jack:
>
>New computers...... Major $ expenditure
>
>Hours to convert..... Labor Hour expenditure
>
>Service to the Kolb family...... PRICELESS!!!!!
>
>Thanks, Jack! Great Job!
>
>--------
>George Alexander
>http://gtalexander.home.att.net
George,
My wife's printer died, and I had to purchase a new printer, but none of the
new printers would work with our old machines. This forced the upgrade. My
son has been after me for ever to get an Apple. I let him pick one out and
tried to foist it off onto my wife. She did not go for it, so I had to
purchase a Dell for her. It came with Vista. We have been through
technology HELL in the last two weeks. I was able to load Microsoft Office
for XL into her Dell and to convert things so that it looks like XL for her.
Her old machine is sitting on a table close by for backup, but she has not
touched it for a week. If this continues for a month, I will put the old
machine away.
I have been uploading files to my son's server and then downloading them
into the new machines. I am slowly moving to the Apple. It is a great
machine with many hidden features. I am still in the discovery stage.
The neat thing is that total update cost in dollars is the same as when I
bought a Kaypro II, eight bit, Z80 computer and daisy wheel printer back in
the early 1980's. It was a wonderful machine, and basically it compared the
card feed IBM 1620 that was popular at the time. Over the eight bit years,
I wore out a half dozen pin printers.
Technology is wonderful, in that I can live in the boonies, and converse
with just about anyone in the world. With the new machines, my son and I
are trying to video conference back and forth so that we can see and
converse with our granddaughter in Indianapolis. And Google is the most
wonderful at your finger tips information library card catalog.
Some fault new technology as bad, but technology has no morality. The
morality only comes into play as to how people apply technology.
Still raining and the White River is moving closer.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
In a message dated 3/19/2008 11:56:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
by0ung@brigham.net writes:
Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff
roll, and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter.
Boyd,
I don't know what you are flying, but my older original model Kolb FireStar,
with no flaps, gets off in about 100 feet or so now. So, if I had flaps
and used 20 degrees, WOW! I could lift off vertically. No need for a runway.
hehehe
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Just a thought here;
>On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and
>held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to
>hold the speed and angle of climb desired. Everyone who has flown it was
>instructed this way. It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the
>shortest takeoff roll.
Gary,
I believe this is good practice, as you are always ready for the unexpected.
In most cases this will work. Once I stopped by at a grass field to meet a
friend. I had asked if the field was freshly mowed and he said it was. But
what I didn't know and found out was that a good part of the field was
covered by water. On final, you could not see it from the air, but when I
three pointed down, water flew every where. This is where my concern for fuel
usage let me down. I should have flown a low flyby to check out the field.
I tried my normal soft field takeoff three times, but I could not get off
before hitting water. To get off, I back taxied until I was in the middle
of a puddle. Then I became a little more aggressive on the throttle and let
the tail come up. Just before I got to the next puddle, I pulled the stick
back against the stop and the FireFly popped up into ground effect. If it
had not popped, I would have had to chop the throttle, and try again.
Flying off and on hard surface, I always use about 4 to 5 degrees of
flaperon. This lets the FireFly stagger off in a three point
attitude.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Grant --
Just about any method mentioned already will work in any situation.
However, I do believe each situation has a preferred method.
This is how I see it:
Method #1 : When it's a smooth turf runway, I do what John H. does, put the
stick at "neutral", let the wheel come up on it's own, then when I get to
flying speed, I pull back just a bit on the stick and I'm away. (If it's
--really-- smooth, I can also use Method # 3.)
Method #2 : When it's a rough or very rough field/terrain, I will
intentionally bring my tailwheel up as soon as I possibly can, usually
around 25-30mph, in order to minimize the stress on the tailwheel. I then
wait for about 5-10mph past flying speed and the plane usually does the rest
with just some gentle persuasion on the stick. If I really want to get off
the field quickly, then at flying speed, I'll pop it up with a quick pull on
the stick, then push the stick back down so I'm flying in ground effect,
then wait for my airspeed to build before I pull up.
Method #3 : When it's a hard surface runway, I can do either of the two
above, or I can just pull back the stick all the way, and wait for the plane
to take off on it's own, then adjust the angle until I'm at best-climb.
However, since I feel it's less stressful on the aircraft to use Method # 1,
then I'll usually do that even on hard-surface or very-smooth-turf runways.
Anytime there is a possibility for gusts to hit me during my take-off roll,
I might try to keep the tailwheel down a bit longer, as long as I don't
think it will harm it... but where it's gusting and I have to pick up the
tailwheel, well, I "get ready" for anything that might get thrown at me and
get "happy feet" and a 'lively hand" when the gust comes a callin'. :-)
-- Robert
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Just a thought here;
>
> >On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back
> and
> >held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward
> to
> >hold the speed and angle of climb desired. Everyone who has flown it was
> >instructed this way. It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the
> >shortest takeoff roll.
>
> Gary,
>
> I believe this is good practice, as you are always ready for the
> unexpected.
> In most cases this will work. Once I stopped by at a grass field to meet
> a
> friend. I had asked if the field was freshly mowed and he said it was.
> But
> what I didn't know and found out was that a good part of the field was
> covered by water. On final, you could not see it from the air, but when I
> three pointed down, water flew every where. This is where my concern for
> fuel
> usage let me down. I should have flown a low flyby to check out the
> field.
>
> I tried my normal soft field takeoff three times, but I could not get off
> before hitting water. To get off, I back taxied until I was in the middle
> of a puddle. Then I became a little more aggressive on the throttle and
> let
> the tail come up. Just before I got to the next puddle, I pulled the
> stick
> back against the stop and the FireFly popped up into ground effect. If it
> had not popped, I would have had to chop the throttle, and try again.
>
> Flying off and on hard surface, I always use about 4 to 5 degrees of
> flaperon. This lets the FireFly stagger off in a three point
> attitude.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 12
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Couple of things
You said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle
of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb
when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim chan
ge and the plane will increase speed rather quickly"
On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the w
ing.On my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.On my plane if
I raise my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. (
try it over the runway at 10 feet or so)On my plane if I raise my flaps and
I'm under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly.
I'm encouraged that your instructor agrees that it is not good pratice to t
ool with the flaps on final.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis
t: Landing StallsDate: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400
David/All
I need to proof read better.
Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps.
When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never eve
r retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while
nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so
short final.... not real short.
There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your fla
ps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively
reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes
a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of
pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As
the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your spee
d under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude.
Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of you
r plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach spee
d constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well
and no, the plane never comes close to stalling.
A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had prac
ticed the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out lan
ding with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed
in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to
put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notc
h but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. W
hen I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of m
y best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not
that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like lan
ding with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some powe
r and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult?
When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide
slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing thro
ttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good
idea IF there is a better way.
Yes it is the same sport.
Again worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls
That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest i
t for a altering my opinion.But I also have to disagree about changing the
flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short.
I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in d
ifferent sports.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: L
anding StallsDate: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400
The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all jus
t call it a "stall" that is really what it is.
My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these p
lanes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of
seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast.
This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibilit
y. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots
"training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us
about this very issue very accurately describing it.
I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest de
cent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjus
t to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and
some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and th
ey increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up g
entle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomp
lish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing
. The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also pr
oduce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the pla
ne quicker than the reduced stall speed will help.
Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired lan
ding point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjus
ting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a powe
r failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approac
h it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as nece
ssary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to ad
just your pitch according to your flap usage.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs
a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more tim
e to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit ea
sier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it
.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis
t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400
David
Ok. So tell us why.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on land
ing.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis
t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400
Joe
As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will s
erve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till yo
u are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the pow
er. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce t
he power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at th
e same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the firs
t time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with l
ots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notc
h of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with n
o flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than
for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is
one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings b
ut I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then a
pproach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm bei
ng too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too
fast to flaps and no power.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: DAquaNut@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
Joe,
Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference
between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows
down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground.
The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to
about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a c
onventional craft you are asking for trouble.
Good Luck,
Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80*
today
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Message 13
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I mean I'm increasing my angle of attack. Which means I am closer to stalll
ing.
From: dhkey@msn.comTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kolb-List: Landi
ng StallsDate: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:02:27 -0500
Couple of thingsYou said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively red
ucing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a
stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pi
tch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly" On my
plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the wing.O
n my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.On my plane if I rai
se my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. (try i
t over the runway at 10 feet or so)On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm
under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly. I'm encouraged that your ins
tructor agrees that it is not good pratice to tool with the flaps on final.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis
t: Landing StallsDate: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400
David/All
I need to proof read better.
Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps.
When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never eve
r retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while
nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so
short final.... not real short.
There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your fla
ps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively
reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes
a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of
pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As
the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your spee
d under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude.
Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of you
r plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach spee
d constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well
and no, the plane never comes close to stalling.
A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had prac
ticed the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out lan
ding with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed
in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to
put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notc
h but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. W
hen I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of m
y best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not
that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like lan
ding with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some powe
r and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult?
When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide
slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing thro
ttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good
idea IF there is a better way.
Yes it is the same sport.
Again worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls
That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest i
t for a altering my opinion.But I also have to disagree about changing the
flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short.
I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in d
ifferent sports.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: L
anding StallsDate: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400
The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all jus
t call it a "stall" that is really what it is.
My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these p
lanes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of
seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast.
This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibilit
y. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots
"training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us
about this very issue very accurately describing it.
I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest de
cent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjus
t to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and
some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and th
ey increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up g
entle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomp
lish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing
. The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also pr
oduce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the pla
ne quicker than the reduced stall speed will help.
Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired lan
ding point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjus
ting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a powe
r failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approac
h it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as nece
ssary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to ad
just your pitch according to your flap usage.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs
a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more tim
e to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit ea
sier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it
.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis
t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400
David
Ok. So tell us why.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on land
ing.
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis
t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400
Joe
As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will s
erve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till yo
u are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the pow
er. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce t
he power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at th
e same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the firs
t time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with l
ots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notc
h of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with n
o flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than
for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is
one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings b
ut I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then a
pproach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm bei
ng too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too
fast to flaps and no power.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: DAquaNut@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
Joe,
Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference
between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows
down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground.
The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to
about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a c
onventional craft you are asking for trouble.
Good Luck,
Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80*
today
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
I am flying a mkIII with a 912 and the testing was done on a summer day with
over 6000 ft density altitude with field elevation of 4226 ft. doesn't
sound like apples here. But when you get it down to a vertical take off I
want to see the video.
Boyd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In a message dated 3/19/2008 11:56:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
by0ung@brigham.net writes:
Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff
roll, and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter.
Boyd,
I don't know what you are flying, but my older original model Kolb FireStar,
with no flaps, gets off in about 100 feet or so now. So, if I had flaps
and used 20 degrees, WOW! I could lift off vertically. No need for a
runway. hehehe
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Landing Stalls |
Let me be perfectly clear I don't/didn't recommend anyone be messing
with their flaps on short final let alone at 10 ft and certainly not
near stall speed.
I'm just trying to share information. I'm not sure what someone else is
doing. Subject closed from my end.
PLEASE Do Not Archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls
Couple of things
You said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the
angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall.
In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch
up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly"
On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of
the wing.
On my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.
On my plane if I raise my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is
likely to go down. (try it over the runway at 10 feet or so)
On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm under Vs then the plane will
stall immeadatly.
I'm encouraged that your instructor agrees that it is not good pratice
to tool with the flaps on final.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400
David/All
I need to proof read better.
Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using
flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you
never ever retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do
this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on
short final, so short final.... not real short.
There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract
your flaps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are
effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of
attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final
you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase
speed rather quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the
nose a bit to keep your speed under control but don't over control.
Practice this a bit at altitude.
Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose
of your plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your
approach speed constant. Notice the change in the potential landing
point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to stalling.
A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I
had practiced the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap
engine out landing with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I
had a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot
and used the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never
locked the flaps in any notch but used it like someone would use a
throttle to adjust my glide slope. When I had my landing spot made I
fully retracted my flaps and made one of my best landings ever. Yes I
could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not that great a pilot and
landing with no power and no flaps is just like landing with one notch
of flaps and some power. I normally land with some power and one notch
of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult?
When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust
your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also
changing throttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final
isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way.
Yes it is the same sport.
Again worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls
That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to
digest it for a altering my opinion.
But I also have to disagree about changing the flap setting on
short final, particulary retracting them if you are short. I adjusting
power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in different
sports.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400
The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could
we all just call it a "stall" that is really what it is.
My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how
quickly these planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also
the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming
up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it
has such great visibility. The result is that people have this inborn
and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high.
Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately
describing it.
I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has
the lowest decent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to
pull up and adjust to a good landing flair. This can best be
accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they
increase the decent rate/angle and they increase the rate of speed that
these planes slow down. You can set up gentle approach with flaps but
you have to greatly increase the power accomplish it. The main problem
is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing. The more power you
have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also produce more drag
than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the plane quicker
than the reduced stall speed will help.
Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their
desired landing point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not
use flaps. adjusting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases
the odds of a power failure. I believe the rule is that if you change
the throttle on approach it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can
be moved in and out as necessary on approach to get to your desired
landing point. You just have to adjust your pitch according to your flap
usage.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be
called occurs a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a
little more time to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb
steering is a bit easier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the
way that I would teach it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400
David
Ok. So tell us why.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: David Key
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum
I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not
use flaps on landing.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the
Forum
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400
Joe
As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing.
Your experience will serve you poorly. On your first landings keep the
power maybe on 25% till you are within less than a foot of the ground.
Then and only then cut the power. Also don't use flaps at all. As you
get more experience SLOWLY reduce the power you set for approach or set
one notch of flap. Don't do both at the same time. In fact you may be
better off adding a bit more power the first time you use one notch of
flaps. Some of us still carry some power with lots of experience. I like
to carry some power because landing with one notch of flaps with some
power will feel just like no power (engine out) with no flaps. I know
this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than for brief
periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is one of
our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings but I
would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then
approach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm
being too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they
move too fast to flaps and no power.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: DAquaNut@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the
Forum
Joe,
Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb .
The biggest difference between your Kolb and what you are used to, is
it has more drag and slows down quickly. You dont want to flare it until
you are close to the ground. The closer the better. Actually you
hardly flare at all. Just fly it to about a foot off the ground and back
of the throttle. If you flare like a conventional craft you are asking
for trouble.
Good Luck,
Ed Diebel ( Firefly
62 In Houston) 80* today
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Thanks a lot everyone for the helpful tips.
On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 to 45mph.
It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. This is
usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the left from
the engine torque and p factor.. We lift off at 55 as the tires begin to shake
from being worn and out of balance.
>From all of the post this is the wrong approach. We should be taking off with
full back or neutral stick and let the tail lift on its own.
My plane does not have differential brakes on it either so its all rudder for the
steering. The grass landings are easier to handle than the paved landings.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171130#171130
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help |
Grant
Sounds to me like your wheel alignment may be off if its that squirly on
pavement.
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help
>
> Thanks a lot everyone for the helpful tips.
>
> On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40
> to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail.
> This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the
> left from the engine torque and p factor.. We lift off at 55 as the tires
> begin to shake from being worn and out of balance.
>
>>From all of the post this is the wrong approach. We should be taking off
>>with full back or neutral stick and let the tail lift on its own.
>
> My plane does not have differential brakes on it either so its all rudder
> for the steering. The grass landings are easier to handle than the paved
> landings.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171130#171130
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 8:52 PM
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 6 gallon tanks in a FS II |
The 6 gal tanks fit fine if you turn the front one sideways so the
handle does not interfere with the frame cross member (makes it easier
to fill from the side anyway). Definitely a great deal from TNK. The
other thing you can see in the photo is that the front tank sticks
forward enough to interfere with the rear sling seat. This was not a
problem for me because I used a rigid rear seat back.
Jimmy - Is there any chance I will get to see your plane at Monument
Valley this year? I'm planning on making the trip.
Dan G.
503 F2
Tucson
Jimmy Young wrote:
> Replying to >Re: Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank
> <http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list/0081.html>
>
> John,
>
> Here is the pic of 2 - 6 gallon tanks purchased from TNK in a FS
> II, hope it makes it. I Put mine in the same way. Credit for the pic
> goes to Dan G. in AZ
>
> Jimmy Young
> FS II
> Houston
>
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