---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/19/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:44 AM - Firestar Project (william sullivan) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (gary aman) 3. 06:00 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (John Hauck) 4. 06:17 AM - FireFly Website (Jack B. Hart) 5. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (John Hauck) 6. 07:04 AM - Re: FireFly Website (George Alexander) 7. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (boyd) 8. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: FireFly Website (Jack B. Hart) 9. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) 10. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Jack B. Hart) 11. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Robert Laird) 12. 02:05 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (David Key) 13. 03:03 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (David Key) 14. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (boyd) 15. 06:31 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 16. 06:31 PM - Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (grantr) 17. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Denny Rowe) 18. 11:37 PM - Re: 6 gallon tanks in a FS II (Dan G.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:46 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar Project Just an update on the Firestar project. Both wings have had the holes patched. One wing has a slight dent in a rib, behind the thickest part on the top. I don't think it will bother anything, and I'm certain no tubes were broken, so I'll leave it alone for now. Both wings are now on the plane, in the folded position. I had the muffler and manifold sandblasred for $20. I welded a "star" crack in the muffler intake elbow with a gasless MIG. Very delicate welding- I think the material is brittle, and thinned out. A lot of exterior pitting- salt air, maybe, as it came from Long Island and was flown frequently over salt water. The manifold was drilled for two more holes, and installed with a total of 6 bolts and new gaskets. The muffler is painted but not installed- too dark last night and raining today. The muffler was rubbing on the fan shroud- I'll have to space it out. The new tires I installed had cracks between the ribs, so Aircraft Spruce immediately exchanged them. Excellent service from them. I have the option of having a ground adjustable AOL by drilling a couple more holes in the front mounting adapter channels. It could give me a total of 3 available AOL's, if I set the aileron control rods correctly. Has anyone ever tried this? Keep in mind that the wing is 2 1/2" back from standard mounting. The gap seal will have to wait until I figure out whether I will build or borrow a trailer. I still have to set and weld new aileron control rods, switch out the bent landing gear legs, fix the static port on the ASI, and mostly wait out the miserable weather. I am also eyeing the original wings for repair and modification, as my living room is empty again. The wife is still tolerating me, but I might be pushing it. Bill Sullivan FS l Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:41 AM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help Just a thought here; On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to hold the speed and angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll. ----- Original Message ---- From: lucien Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:34:01 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help grantr wrote: > I have had a few good comments and tips. Does anyone else want to chime in? Come on guys i know you all have some sort of technique. :) Well I can relate my FS II time, hopefully some of which will be pertinent to the mark III. It definitely is a tailwheel airplane, tho it's quite docile, so it certainly can get wild on you if ithe tail goes ape in one direction or the other. I had one or two of the back/forth takeoffs in the FS II when I was very early on with it, tho fortunately didn't get off the runway or anything. Differential braking saved the bacon on one of the takeoffs. Slowly applying throttle helps a great deal and was the technique used since then. As for the landing, the FS II in particular is a low-inertia design, so it lands a lot more like an ultralight than the big iron. You run out of energy pretty quick in the roundout and flare, but you don't necessarily have to drive it onto the runway either (unless you're wheel landing it in some wind). I'd try a slower roundout to get a good idea of what things should look like at first. Assist that with a little bit of power to simulate a higher-inertia plane to slow the roundout down. Do this for a while to get used to it. Then start practicing without power for the real deal... As for the stall, I don't recall there being anything strange about it, it's very conventional with no surprises. The FS II does give you all the warning signs, mushy controls, lightness in the butt, suddenly lots quieter, just like any other plane, but only for a very short time. Don't blink or you'll miss em! Again, typical of low-inertia planes. LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170838#170838 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:26 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help Gary A: Had to sit here a minute to think how I made my normal takeoffs. Usually, depending on the airstrip, I keep the throttle centered, when the tail starts up, I keep it level, at flying speed a little aft stick, and we are flying. At Lakeland and Oshkosh, we usually pick up a main wheel a little early to coax the aircraft into flying a little early. john h mkIII On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to hold the speed and angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:42 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Website Kolbers, I just up dated my web site. I write my own htmls and I developed the web site using a machine that is now about 12 years old. It had a 800 x 600 pixel screen. I used some width control statements that used percent instead of the number of pixels. For those who had the newer or wider screens, this caused the pages to become very stretched from side to side. I purchased a couple of new computers, and I could see the effect. I have corrected all the htmls so that they are forced into 800 pixel widths and I removed all full page length commands. This compacts the pages, which should make them easier to read. If you would like to see the new look, it can be seen at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly.html Almost warm enough to fly, but we have seen nothing but rain for a couple of days. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:06 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help Morning Gang: "Usually, depending on the airstrip, I keep the throttle centered, when the tail starts up, I" Naw, I don't keep the throttle centered on takeoff, I keep the control stick centered, but I do have the throttle WAO. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:17 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly Website From: "George Alexander" jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: > Kolbers, > > I just up dated my web site. I write my own htmls and I developed the web > site using a machine that is now about 12 years old. It had a 800 x 600 > pixel screen. I used some width control statements that used percent > instead of the number of pixels. For those who had the newer or wider > screens, this caused the pages to become very stretched from side to > side. > > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN Jack: New computers...... Major $ expenditure Hours to convert..... Labor Hour expenditure Service to the Kolb family...... PRICELESS!!!!! Thanks, Jack! Great Job! -------- George Alexander http://gtalexander.home.att.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170908#170908 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:46 AM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help I'm Open for an education here. but I was told that the shortest take off roll, at least from a hard surface, was to get the tail up after adding power, and this would allow you to accelerate faster because of reduced drag on the wing, then pull the stick back when up to take off speed. I have done testing, taking off clean, 20 & 40 Deg flaps. Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff roll, and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter. The explanation was that even though 40 deg of flaps should allow you to fly slower because of greater lift, the extra drag caused a much slower acceleration. Now I can hear you thinking between the lines. if 40 was slower why not 20 Deg of flaps being shorter as well.. The explanation would be that if you chart the lift to drag ratio on a chart,,,, 20 deg of flaps produces quite a bit of added lift with only a small drag penalty,,, while 40 deg of flaps, while producing a little more lift than 20 deg, is affected by much higher drag ratio. In getting a tail dragger endorsement in a supper cub,, the shortest takeoff was starting with 10 deg flaps, getting the tail up to reduce drag on the wings then, at the same time, pulling the stick back while adding additional flaps. Again this if from a hard surface runway,,,, soft field takeoff would be quite different. Boyd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Just a thought here; On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to hold the speed and angle of climb desired.Everyone who has flown it was instructed this way .It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the shortest takeoff roll. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:28 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly Website At 07:01 AM 3/19/08 -0700, you wrote: > > >Jack: > >New computers...... Major $ expenditure > >Hours to convert..... Labor Hour expenditure > >Service to the Kolb family...... PRICELESS!!!!! > >Thanks, Jack! Great Job! > >-------- >George Alexander >http://gtalexander.home.att.net George, My wife's printer died, and I had to purchase a new printer, but none of the new printers would work with our old machines. This forced the upgrade. My son has been after me for ever to get an Apple. I let him pick one out and tried to foist it off onto my wife. She did not go for it, so I had to purchase a Dell for her. It came with Vista. We have been through technology HELL in the last two weeks. I was able to load Microsoft Office for XL into her Dell and to convert things so that it looks like XL for her. Her old machine is sitting on a table close by for backup, but she has not touched it for a week. If this continues for a month, I will put the old machine away. I have been uploading files to my son's server and then downloading them into the new machines. I am slowly moving to the Apple. It is a great machine with many hidden features. I am still in the discovery stage. The neat thing is that total update cost in dollars is the same as when I bought a Kaypro II, eight bit, Z80 computer and daisy wheel printer back in the early 1980's. It was a wonderful machine, and basically it compared the card feed IBM 1620 that was popular at the time. Over the eight bit years, I wore out a half dozen pin printers. Technology is wonderful, in that I can live in the boonies, and converse with just about anyone in the world. With the new machines, my son and I are trying to video conference back and forth so that we can see and converse with our granddaughter in Indianapolis. And Google is the most wonderful at your finger tips information library card catalog. Some fault new technology as bad, but technology has no morality. The morality only comes into play as to how people apply technology. Still raining and the White River is moving closer. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:03 AM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help In a message dated 3/19/2008 11:56:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung@brigham.net writes: Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff roll, and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter. Boyd, I don't know what you are flying, but my older original model Kolb FireStar, with no flaps, gets off in about 100 feet or so now. So, if I had flaps and used 20 degrees, WOW! I could lift off vertically. No need for a runway. hehehe Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:33 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help Just a thought here; >On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back and >held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward to >hold the speed and angle of climb desired. Everyone who has flown it was >instructed this way. It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the >shortest takeoff roll. Gary, I believe this is good practice, as you are always ready for the unexpected. In most cases this will work. Once I stopped by at a grass field to meet a friend. I had asked if the field was freshly mowed and he said it was. But what I didn't know and found out was that a good part of the field was covered by water. On final, you could not see it from the air, but when I three pointed down, water flew every where. This is where my concern for fuel usage let me down. I should have flown a low flyby to check out the field. I tried my normal soft field takeoff three times, but I could not get off before hitting water. To get off, I back taxied until I was in the middle of a puddle. Then I became a little more aggressive on the throttle and let the tail come up. Just before I got to the next puddle, I pulled the stick back against the stop and the FireFly popped up into ground effect. If it had not popped, I would have had to chop the throttle, and try again. Flying off and on hard surface, I always use about 4 to 5 degrees of flaperon. This lets the FireFly stagger off in a three point attitude. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:57 AM PST US From: "Robert Laird" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help Grant -- Just about any method mentioned already will work in any situation. However, I do believe each situation has a preferred method. This is how I see it: Method #1 : When it's a smooth turf runway, I do what John H. does, put the stick at "neutral", let the wheel come up on it's own, then when I get to flying speed, I pull back just a bit on the stick and I'm away. (If it's --really-- smooth, I can also use Method # 3.) Method #2 : When it's a rough or very rough field/terrain, I will intentionally bring my tailwheel up as soon as I possibly can, usually around 25-30mph, in order to minimize the stress on the tailwheel. I then wait for about 5-10mph past flying speed and the plane usually does the rest with just some gentle persuasion on the stick. If I really want to get off the field quickly, then at flying speed, I'll pop it up with a quick pull on the stick, then push the stick back down so I'm flying in ground effect, then wait for my airspeed to build before I pull up. Method #3 : When it's a hard surface runway, I can do either of the two above, or I can just pull back the stick all the way, and wait for the plane to take off on it's own, then adjust the angle until I'm at best-climb. However, since I feel it's less stressful on the aircraft to use Method # 1, then I'll usually do that even on hard-surface or very-smooth-turf runways. Anytime there is a possibility for gusts to hit me during my take-off roll, I might try to keep the tailwheel down a bit longer, as long as I don't think it will harm it... but where it's gusting and I have to pick up the tailwheel, well, I "get ready" for anything that might get thrown at me and get "happy feet" and a 'lively hand" when the gust comes a callin'. :-) -- Robert On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:43:22 -0700 (PDT) > > Just a thought here; > > >On takeoff in the Firestar,I have always begun the roll with stick back > and > >held it here until the wheels lifted then slowly eased the stick forward > to > >hold the speed and angle of climb desired. Everyone who has flown it was > >instructed this way. It's like a soft field takeoff and always gives the > >shortest takeoff roll. > > Gary, > > I believe this is good practice, as you are always ready for the > unexpected. > In most cases this will work. Once I stopped by at a grass field to meet > a > friend. I had asked if the field was freshly mowed and he said it was. > But > what I didn't know and found out was that a good part of the field was > covered by water. On final, you could not see it from the air, but when I > three pointed down, water flew every where. This is where my concern for > fuel > usage let me down. I should have flown a low flyby to check out the > field. > > I tried my normal soft field takeoff three times, but I could not get off > before hitting water. To get off, I back taxied until I was in the middle > of a puddle. Then I became a little more aggressive on the throttle and > let > the tail come up. Just before I got to the next puddle, I pulled the > stick > back against the stop and the FireFly popped up into ground effect. If it > had not popped, I would have had to chop the throttle, and try again. > > Flying off and on hard surface, I always use about 4 to 5 degrees of > flaperon. This lets the FireFly stagger off in a three point > attitude. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:04 PM PST US From: David Key Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls Couple of things You said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim chan ge and the plane will increase speed rather quickly" On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the w ing.On my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.On my plane if I raise my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. ( try it over the runway at 10 feet or so)On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly. I'm encouraged that your instructor agrees that it is not good pratice to t ool with the flaps on final. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: Landing StallsDate: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400 David/All I need to proof read better. Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never eve r retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final.... not real short. There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your fla ps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your spee d under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude. Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of you r plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach spee d constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to stalling. A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had prac ticed the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out lan ding with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notc h but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. W hen I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of m y best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like lan ding with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some powe r and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult? When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing thro ttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way. Yes it is the same sport. Again worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest i t for a altering my opinion.But I also have to disagree about changing the flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short. I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in d ifferent sports. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: L anding StallsDate: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400 The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all jus t call it a "stall" that is really what it is. My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these p lanes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibilit y. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately describing it. I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest de cent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjus t to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and th ey increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up g entle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomp lish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing . The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also pr oduce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the pla ne quicker than the reduced stall speed will help. Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired lan ding point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjus ting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a powe r failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approac h it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as nece ssary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to ad just your pitch according to your flap usage. As always worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more tim e to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit ea sier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it . From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400 David Ok. So tell us why. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on land ing. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400 Joe As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will s erve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till yo u are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the pow er. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce t he power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at th e same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the firs t time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with l ots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notc h of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with n o flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings b ut I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then a pproach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm bei ng too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too fast to flaps and no power. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: DAquaNut@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Joe, Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground. The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a c onventional craft you are asking for trouble. Good Luck, Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80* today It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:52 PM PST US From: David Key Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls I mean I'm increasing my angle of attack. Which means I am closer to stalll ing. From: dhkey@msn.comTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kolb-List: Landi ng StallsDate: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:02:27 -0500 Couple of thingsYou said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively red ucing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pi tch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly" On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the wing.O n my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.On my plane if I rai se my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. (try i t over the runway at 10 feet or so)On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly. I'm encouraged that your ins tructor agrees that it is not good pratice to tool with the flaps on final. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: Landing StallsDate: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400 David/All I need to proof read better. Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never eve r retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final.... not real short. There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your fla ps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your spee d under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude. Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of you r plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach spee d constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to stalling. A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had prac ticed the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out lan ding with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notc h but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. W hen I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of m y best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like lan ding with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some powe r and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult? When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing thro ttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way. Yes it is the same sport. Again worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest i t for a altering my opinion.But I also have to disagree about changing the flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short. I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in d ifferent sports. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Kolb-List: L anding StallsDate: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400 The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all jus t call it a "stall" that is really what it is. My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these p lanes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibilit y. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately describing it. I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest de cent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjus t to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and th ey increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up g entle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomp lish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing . The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also pr oduce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the pla ne quicker than the reduced stall speed will help. Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired lan ding point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjus ting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a powe r failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approac h it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as nece ssary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to ad just your pitch according to your flap usage. As always worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more tim e to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit ea sier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it . From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400 David Ok. So tell us why. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on land ing. From: NeilsenRM@comcast.netTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-Lis t: New "Kolbee" ... New to the ForumDate: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400 Joe As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will s erve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till yo u are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the pow er. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce t he power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at th e same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the firs t time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with l ots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notc h of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with n o flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings b ut I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then a pproach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm bei ng too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too fast to flaps and no power. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: DAquaNut@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Joe, Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground. The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a c onventional craft you are asking for trouble. Good Luck, Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80* today It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:19 PM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help I am flying a mkIII with a 912 and the testing was done on a summer day with over 6000 ft density altitude with field elevation of 4226 ft. doesn't sound like apples here. But when you get it down to a vertical take off I want to see the video. Boyd >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 3/19/2008 11:56:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung@brigham.net writes: Both clean and 40 deg flaps had , as close as I could tell, the same takeoff roll, and 20 deg flaps was 50 to 100 ft shorter. Boyd, I don't know what you are flying, but my older original model Kolb FireStar, with no flaps, gets off in about 100 feet or so now. So, if I had flaps and used 20 degrees, WOW! I could lift off vertically. No need for a runway. hehehe Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:17 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls Let me be perfectly clear I don't/didn't recommend anyone be messing with their flaps on short final let alone at 10 ft and certainly not near stall speed. I'm just trying to share information. I'm not sure what someone else is doing. Subject closed from my end. PLEASE Do Not Archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls Couple of things You said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly" On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the wing. On my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up. On my plane if I raise my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. (try it over the runway at 10 feet or so) On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly. I'm encouraged that your instructor agrees that it is not good pratice to tool with the flaps on final. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400 David/All I need to proof read better. Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never ever retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final.... not real short. There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your flaps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your speed under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude. Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of your plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach speed constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to stalling. A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had practiced the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out landing with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notch but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. When I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of my best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like landing with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some power and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult? When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing throttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way. Yes it is the same sport. Again worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest it for a altering my opinion. But I also have to disagree about changing the flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short. I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in different sports. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400 The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all just call it a "stall" that is really what it is. My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibility. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately describing it. I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest decent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjust to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and they increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up gentle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomplish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing. The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also produce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the plane quicker than the reduced stall speed will help. Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired landing point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjusting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a power failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approach it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as necessary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to adjust your pitch according to your flap usage. As always worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Because the dreaded Kolb drop, or stall is what it used to be called occurs a little later and a little slower which gives the pilot a little more time to make adjustments in the landing environment. Kolb steering is a bit easier to tackle the slower you are going. It's the way that I would teach it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:42:15 -0400 David Ok. So tell us why. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: David Key To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum I respectfully disagree with the idea that you should not use flaps on landing. ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: NeilsenRM@comcast.net To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0400 Joe As Ed has suggested your biggest problem is landing. Your experience will serve you poorly. On your first landings keep the power maybe on 25% till you are within less than a foot of the ground. Then and only then cut the power. Also don't use flaps at all. As you get more experience SLOWLY reduce the power you set for approach or set one notch of flap. Don't do both at the same time. In fact you may be better off adding a bit more power the first time you use one notch of flaps. Some of us still carry some power with lots of experience. I like to carry some power because landing with one notch of flaps with some power will feel just like no power (engine out) with no flaps. I know this first hand. Some of us never use full flaps other than for brief periods on approach to hit the landing point you want. There is one of our members that uses full flaps and power off on all his landings but I would wait for that after your first thousand landings and even then approach it with added power. There will be those that will tell you I'm being too conservative but most GA pilots will have problems if they move too fast to flaps and no power. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: DAquaNut@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New "Kolbee" ... New to the Forum Joe, Welcome to the list. congrats on your new Kolb . The biggest difference between your Kolb and what you are used to, is it has more drag and slows down quickly. You dont want to flare it until you are close to the ground. The closer the better. Actually you hardly flare at all. Just fly it to about a foot off the ground and back of the throttle. If you flare like a conventional craft you are asking for trouble. Good Luck, Ed Diebel ( Firefly 62 In Houston) 80* today -------------------------------------------------------------- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help From: "grantr" Thanks a lot everyone for the helpful tips. On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the left from the engine torque and p factor.. We lift off at 55 as the tires begin to shake from being worn and out of balance. >From all of the post this is the wrong approach. We should be taking off with full back or neutral stick and let the tail lift on its own. My plane does not have differential brakes on it either so its all rudder for the steering. The grass landings are easier to handle than the paved landings. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171130#171130 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:01 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help Grant Sounds to me like your wheel alignment may be off if its that squirly on pavement. Denny ----- Original Message ----- From: "grantr" Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:29 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help > > Thanks a lot everyone for the helpful tips. > > On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 > to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. > This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the > left from the engine torque and p factor.. We lift off at 55 as the tires > begin to shake from being worn and out of balance. > >>From all of the post this is the wrong approach. We should be taking off >>with full back or neutral stick and let the tail lift on its own. > > My plane does not have differential brakes on it either so its all rudder > for the steering. The grass landings are easier to handle than the paved > landings. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171130#171130 > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 8:52 PM > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:29 PM PST US From: "Dan G." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 6 gallon tanks in a FS II The 6 gal tanks fit fine if you turn the front one sideways so the handle does not interfere with the frame cross member (makes it easier to fill from the side anyway). Definitely a great deal from TNK. The other thing you can see in the photo is that the front tank sticks forward enough to interfere with the rear sling seat. This was not a problem for me because I used a rigid rear seat back. Jimmy - Is there any chance I will get to see your plane at Monument Valley this year? I'm planning on making the trip. Dan G. 503 F2 Tucson Jimmy Young wrote: > Replying to >Re: Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank > > > John, > > Here is the pic of 2 - 6 gallon tanks purchased from TNK in a FS > II, hope it makes it. I Put mine in the same way. Credit for the pic > goes to Dan G. in AZ > > Jimmy Young > FS II > Houston > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.