---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/20/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Dana Hague) 2. 04:00 AM - Re: Re: ultra star (Dana Hague) 3. 05:04 AM - Bumblebees can't fly!! (David Kulp) 4. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help (Jack B. Hart) 5. 08:47 AM - Re: Fly the plane!! (GeoR38@aol.com) 6. 09:32 AM - Re: Fly the plane!! (Mike Welch) 7. 10:42 AM - Re: Fly the plane!!........reply () 8. 12:38 PM - Re: TNK Website (pj.ladd) 9. 01:03 PM - Re: Landing Stalls (jb92563) 10. 01:13 PM - Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! (R. Hankins) 11. 02:50 PM - Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! (henry.voris) 12. 04:33 PM - florida tax (Larry Cottrell) 13. 07:41 PM - Re: Fly the plane!! (GeoR38) 14. 07:46 PM - Re: Fly the plane!! (GeoR38@aol.com) 15. 08:10 PM - Re: Firestar Versus Firefly (Don G) 16. 08:26 PM - Re: Fly the plane!! (Wade Lawicki) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:30 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help At 09:29 PM 3/19/2008, grantr wrote: >On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 >to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. >This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the >left from the engine torque and p factor.. Torque will only roll the plane, not yaw it. P-factor will tend to yaw the plane, but only at higher angles of attack (i.e. it'll want to yaw the plane while the tail's down, but not afterwards). If the plane tries to yaw just as you lift the tail, that's gyroscopic precession, all taildraggers do it to a greater or lesser extent; you just have to be ready for it. A misalignment between your tailwheel and rudder could be causing it, too. > My plane does not have differential brakes on it either so its all > rudder for the steering. The grass landings are easier to handle than the > paved landings. You shouldn't be using differential brakes on takeoff anyway, unless things _really_ get out of hand. Grass is always easier than pavement, as there's less friction to side motion. -Dana -- End rush hour traffic now! Legalize vehicular weaponry! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:17 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star At 08:35 AM 3/9/2008, tc1917 wrote: >I have a pic of an ultrastar with the alum legs that someone might be >interested in. I crunched the originals in an engine out so I rebuilt >them with the plans from a friend and they were fabulous. I could not >believe how much it changed the landing characteristics. wow, >great. much better than the original. This uses the old style very small >firestar gear legs. I have the plans and pics if anyone is interested in >it. Ted Cowan. Ted, I'd like to see them. Is it something you can post, perhaps in the Yahoo Ultrastar group files section? -Dana do not archive -- End rush hour traffic now! Legalize vehicular weaponry! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:57 AM PST US From: "David Kulp" Subject: Kolb-List: Bumblebees can't fly!! Yesterday I went to see my doctor for a tune up. While he's working on me we always have rich discussions; politics, philosophy, science, etc. During the course of our conversation yesterday I made the statement that bumblebees can't fly. He responded that, although by our understanding of aeronautical laws they can't, but scientists have recently discovered what holds them in the air... vortices!! While bumblebees can't fly in and of themselves, their little wings are... Vortex Generators! When I came home I researched it on the web and here's a link you may want to access. http://www.physorg.com/news89459870.html This info ought to get VGs out of the Seafoam category anyway. Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA FireFly 098 We have enough youth; how about a Fountain of Smart. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:08 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Takeoff & landing & stall help At 06:29 PM 3/19/08 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks a lot everyone for the helpful tips. > >On the paved runway we have been forcing the tail off the ground around 40 to 45mph. It takes some forward pressure on the stick to unstick the tail. This is usually where it gets squirrelly as the plane wants to dart to the left from the engine torque and p factor.. We lift off at 55 as the tires begin to shake from being worn and out of balance. > Grant, It really sounds like you have a wheel alignment problem, such as toe in or out, or negative chamber. Both of these are easily checked by adding some bags of sand to the seat(s) and rolling the plane to an fro to settle the gear. A little positive chamber and zero toe-in are good. The only other thing that can cause such a problem is unequal or low tire pressure. If tire pressure is too low, it increases rolling resistance, and as the load rocks from side to side it will cause yaw problems. Raise your tire pressure to the max and see if it improves the situation. My FireFly was wicked on hard surfaces until I fixed all of the above. Toe-in and chamber can be adjusted with judicious force application with a long lever over the axle. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:12 AM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fly the plane!! In a message dated 2/22/2008 1:52:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com writes: John, and group of Kolb Guys, I just watched all 3 videos, in their entirety, and must say that this latest discussion about "Kolb quit" (as Pat prefers to call it) has been the most useless thread I've read in years!! Watching these gentlemen fly and land their Firestars reminded me of why I wanted a Kolb in the first place...namely because they are incredibly docile machines. Conversions about stalling and bending landing gear and Kolb drop and other inane subjects have only lead to fears to those of us that have yet to fly our planes. I have several hundred hours of flight time on my Cessna 172. I have never come even close to bending the landing gear. I've never dropped it in from 10' feet up. I've never stalled it as I was landing. (Although I watched someone do this on a 152 rental plane). Now I say to myself "why would I fear landing a Kolb, providing I FLY THE PLANE!!!" Now, I'm NOT coming down on anyone who has ever bent landing gear. I know crap happens. Even the best among us can have a lapse of concentration and make a misjudgement. This may very well happen to me, someday. But having just watched an excellent example of potential Kolb performance, long drawn-out discussions on falling out the sky seem useless. Learn to fly the plane, simple as that. I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am building an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft. Mike Welch Kolb MkIII Mike I am sorry that I have taken so long to kinda catch up on my email, and I think I understand your source of frustration that comes through on this email of yours. It is an example of "how close do you want to inspect a subject? " Do you drive a camel....of course not...so you don't need to know too much about them. The Arabs have up to 400 words describing types of camels and we have 2. Camel and dromedary. For those of us who have fl own the Firestar or other Kolbs, there is a phenomenon that has been identified as a flight characteristic of the Kolb not seen as profoundly in some other types of craft., Not a big deal, but certainly identifiable. Homer suggested it was caused by low mass and hi drag or maybe it was lo drag....who cares. It was an attempt to suggest its cause, but he did acknowledge that it existed. I could start this all up again by suggesting that the cause of it includes something else, but I won't. Don't think some on the list could handle it without stressing their sensibilities. (please notice my spelling is impeccable)....just teasin......but it really is. I guess my only point, Mike is ....don't be frustrated. I love my Firestar which I built in my garage in 1992 and towed it down here to the Villages in Florida in 2004. George Randolph Firestar driver from the Villages , fla **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:09 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Fly the plane!! Brother George, Thanks for the reply. It isn't that I wanted to squash t he discussion of the flying characteristics of Kolb aircraft, it's just tha t I felt that many were giving the impression that landing Kolb airplanes w ere like landing the "Wright Flyer", or some other oddly shaped craft. To be honest, I really wasn't very frustrated, either. If Kolbs have a s lightly peculiar landing tendency, and someone advises you about it, would you not, then, avoid that tendency?? Is it that bad that it cannot be avoi ded? I have no quarrel with anyone about their views and opinions about flying their planes, and whatever landing technique they find pleasing. My posit ion was I was just trying to point out that I don't believe Kolbs have an " eary" landing style. They don't, do they? I wouldn't know, because I haven't flown one, yet. I am still fairly convinced Kolbs are reasonably docill, and manageable, p roviding one flies the plane, and doesn't let the plane fly them. BTW, George, nice spelling, grammar, and punctuation. he he he Mike Welch From: GeoR38@aol.comDate: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:44:00 -0400Subject: Re: Kolb- List: Fly the plane!!To: kolb-list@matronics.com In a message dated 2/22/2008 1:52:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdnanwelch 7@hotmail.com writes: John, and group of Kolb Guys, I just watched all 3 videos, in their entire ty, and must say that this latest discussion about "Kolb quit" (as Pat pref ers to call it) has been the most useless thread I've read in years!! Watc hing these gentlemen fly and land their Firestars reminded me of why I want ed a Kolb in the first place...namely because they are incredibly docile ma chines. Conversions about stalling and bending landing gear and Kolb drop and other inane subjects have only lead to fears to those of us that have y et to fly our planes. I have several hundred hours of flight time on my Ce ssna 172. I have never come even close to bending the landing gear. I've never dropped it in from 10' feet up. I've never stalled it as I was landi ng. (Although I watched someone do this on a 152 rental plane). Now I say to myself "why would I fear landing a Kolb, providing I FLY THE PLANE!!!" Now, I'm NOT coming down on anyone who has ever bent landing gear. I know crap happens. Even the best among us can have a lapse of concentration an d make a misjudgement. This may very well happen to me, someday. But havi ng just watched an excellent example of potential Kolb performance, long dr awn-out discussions on falling out the sky seem useless. Learn to fly the plane, simple as that. I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoin t of knowing I am building an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced ai rcraft.Mike WelchKolb MkIII Mike I am sorry that I have taken so long to kinda catch up on my email, an d I think I understand your source of frustration that comes through on thi s email of yours. It is an example of "how close do you want to inspect a s ubject? " Do you drive a camel....of course not...so you don't need to know too much about them. The Arabs have up to 400 words describing types of camels and w e have 2. Camel and dromedary. For those of us who have fl own the Firesta r or other Kolbs, there is a phenomenon that has been identified as a fli ght characteristic of the Kolb not seen as profoundly in some other types o f craft., Not a big deal, but certainly identifiable. Homer suggested it wa s caused by low mass and hi drag or maybe it was lo drag....who cares. It w as an attempt to suggest its cause, but he did acknowledge that it existed. I could start this all up again by suggesting that the cause of it includes something else, but I won't. Don't think some on the list could handle it without stressing their sensibilities. (please notice my spelling is impecc able)....just teasin......but it really is. I guess my only point, Mike is ....don't be frustrated. I love my Firestar which I built in my garage in 1992 and towed it down here to the Villages in Florida in 2004. George Randolph Firestar driver from the Villages , fla Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:17 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Fly the plane!!........reply My trustee Kolb MKIII is without a doubt the most enjoyable and scenic airplane that I have ever flown which includes my next favorites, the J-3, the Hummer, Kasperwing, and most taildraggers of the 1940's and all hang gliders and sailplanes. I like it especially in the summer time with my 1/2 doors. The air circulation is perfect and the visibility is even better; and, I get more air to the prop. All good things. If there is a negative, it is the prop noise that finds it's way forward. (working on that) My MkIII reacts very similar to a J-3 in both performance ahd handling. Yes, I have performed the famous Kolb drop and am almost expert in rebending gears legs. The reason for my dumbness is because I have tried landing like a Cub or Citabria wherein the tail wheel will hit slightly sooner that the mains at full stall. That would be fine were my heights not so high. I am fairly certain that gap seals and VG's on the elevator would help, but then the tail wheel would c o! ntact too much before the mains come down. Enough for the learning curve. Now, with VG's on the wing (52 ea), it floats down gently. At 60mph approach, 50 mph round out to about 2 feet and very slight release of elevator it just sits on the runway rolling along slowly after the tailwheel hits only slightly before the mains. It is a delight. The advise here on the net has been good and having a little power on landing is both safe and reassuring. It is a pilots choice. Vic (Sacramento, 916,722-9692 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:55 PM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: TNK Website Soon to have more time on the new X than Patrick has on his X. ;-) >> Ouch, John. You may well be right. The first of the seasons fly ins is scheduled for this Sunday but the WX for the Easter weekend is 25 knots, wintry showers with some snow so that loks like a bust. Raining and blowing today already (Thursday)Shame because given reasonable weather it is always well attended. Been suffering with some back trouble for some weeks. If I can`t get the Xtra into the air perhaps I can fix some wings on the little electric invalid chair I have been using.. Perhaps red bull will sponsor me. Incidentally if anyone can see the coverage of the Air Sports Show from Wanaka, New Zealand it is worth watching. Gliding, parachuting, free fall and crosscountry hang gliding, Tiger Moth racing (Le Mans start) etc., the pics are outstanding and the computer work enables you to watch the guys going on cross countries with comp. generated tracks in real time, with heights.. A lot of the stuff was new to me including racing round pylons while freefalling. A mate in NZ sent me a DVD as we have not seen it in the UK yet. Given the way some of the sporting stuff is chosen we may never see it. Ultralights I understand are featured in a n episode which has not been broadcast yet. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:04 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Landing Stalls From: "jb92563" Don't forget that deployed flaps DECREASE the airspeed at which you STALL(You can fly slower) so if you are at or near stall and retract your flaps(INCREASES stall speed)....you will likely stall instantly. Conversely, once you have touched down, retracting flap will help prevent ballooning back into the air if a gust comes down the runway at you. If you want to play with the flap settings on final you need to carry extra speed to allow a greater safety margin above stall....else you run out of height and speed at the same time.....and we know how much grief and pain THAT causes from watching the Road Runner and Coyote get it on! [Wink] -------- Ray Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202) Moni MotorGlider Schreder HP-11 Glider Riverside County, CA Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171307#171307 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! From: "R. Hankins" Here is another interesting article on the subject: http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/3410 Beekeeping is one of my other hobbies. -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171310#171310 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! From: "henry.voris" 20mar08 I would have more faith in those pages that refer to bumble bees, if the photos they use showed bumble bees... rather than honey bees... http://hercules.users.netlink.co.uk/Bee.html Aloha, -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171332#171332 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:18 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Kolb-List: florida tax Hi, A friend sent this link to me today concerning taxation in Florida. I remember a recent thread about the taxes in Florida. Perhaps this will shed some light on the subject. http://tinyurl.com/2lzauu Larry C do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! From: "GeoR38" Mike .... trust me it is small but a real problem to those who have never experienced Kolb drop. I have bent 7 axles and 5 I would have gto say wee due to this phenomenon. Personally, I think it is due to the angle of incidence between the horizontal stabilizer and the wing, what this means is that some of the wing and tail is approaching stall even when flying cruise. ie, it is a draggy configuration that provides very good stability. You might say it makes washout unnecessary to achieve the stability of slow flight, you know how a washout wing first stalls in the middle then the stall progresses out to the wingtips as the plane slows down? But you still have some lift due to the unstalled part of the wing, but you will sink..... just like the Kolb does. Well, it has Verrry little dihedral for slow stability, soooooo it uses the angle of incidence between wing and tail to achieve that necessary ingredient. This is just part of the story, but touches on the main parts to explain Kolb drop. Oh, btw, I straightened most of my bent gears during those early learning years, so it didn't actually cost me anything George Randolph -------- George Randolph Firestar driver, The Villages, fl Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171403#171403 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:21 PM PST US From: GeoR38@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fly the plane!! Matt sent e a form letter that I completed my answer on but am not sure what it was all about. do not archive George **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:12 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly From: "Don G" I would say it it like this, when you are learning to fly a Kolb...land with power...and the more you learn the less power you will need...but then...that depends on the wind too...I didnt land at Idle every time...depends on how good I set up on final..If you get low...and set up slow..you will need power...but you can dive it in from unbelievable angles and pull level above the turf and set it right in also...because it does not float. About the worst thing I can think of about a FireFly is...it handles and preforms so well, it will seriously tempt you to do thing you should NOT do in it. I cannot speak for other models than the FireFly however... and Your memory ain't that bad John....my first ride in a Kolb was in yours pard... Built the plane and had never had even a ride, till you came by showed me the ropes and as I look back, the conversations we had were of more value then the actual ride. (Even the ones about Kolb flight charactistics) What I will speak of as to the FireFly...it does not take long for that little bird to just become a part of you...and you can do things with it by just "feel". The FireFly has no bad habits...its super predictable.. After a fella figgers out just how fast it gonna drop in and at what speed....just make sure your wheels are really close to the turf when you arrive at that speed...weather you have power or not. I have flown a ton of different part 103 birds...going all the way back to the begining..late 70's and my first...a weedhopper.. But absolutely none compare with a FireFly. It may be 103 compliant by weight...but it really stand head and shoulders above the rest. Like the difference between a 175cc moped and a 175cc motocrosser...it just handles real well and performs... Learn it, and you can do things the others cant even dream about. Now...I didnt learn the complete envelope without making mistakes...but I never bent more than one gear leg at a time! I'll tell you something else about learning to fly the FireFly. Before I had mine done...I stood down at Sun-N-Fun the year when the "other Flagfly" won grandchampion ultralite...(the one that inspired my paintjob) and I watched a fella fly that thing all day long. I said to myself...jeez...that guy must live in that airplane...he is the smoothest stick I have ever seen. I had seen other Kolbs fly locally, and alot of em ploppin em in...staggering them up in the air..but this guy...I just knew he had must have lived in that pretty bird. I watched him real careful and learned an awful lot...I watched the elevators and listened to the engine..watched him shoot dozens and dozens or takeoffs and landings. WEll..I found out the airplane wasn't even his!...nope..he drove one a those big old MK3 hogs with that huge engine...hmmm...must be something to this I thought..Never did get to talk to him that day though.. about 3 months later...that fella was kind enough to stop by Shelby County airport on his way from OshKosh home...and he gave me a Kolb ride to help me get up the nerve to test fly my just about complete plane. He stood in my shed and talked over the FireFly and just shared what he knew about these Kolbs. Showed me things on the craft I oughtta know.. I took his advice...because he explained this airplane to me straight forward...no pussy-footing wit the terms..he Just TOLD me how to fly the FireFly..He told me what it would do and how I oughtta handle it. That first flight was perfect...so was the next and the next and the next... And after wearing out one engine on that airplane..I can tell you he was right on everything he said..I was lucky to have had him stop and give me a prep. That day I met John Hauck for the first time. Did I ever thank you for that day John? I will always be grateful as heck you know...God Bless ya! -------- Don G. Central Illinois Kitfox IV Speedster Luscombe 8A http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171407#171407 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! From: "Wade Lawicki" George, No offense intended but, I have 200 hrs. on my FS with no previous GA or tail dragger experience and have NEVER bent a leg or broke an axle. The DROP is the effect of a STALL not a cause? All planes do it! Its not the plane, its the pilot in command. Fly Safe, Wade -------- Fly Safe! Wade Nashville Tn. FS 2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171411#171411 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.