---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/21/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: ultra star (Jeffrey Jones) 2. 06:50 AM - tanks (robert bean) 3. 06:58 AM - Fw: Re: ultra star (Jeffrey Jones) 4. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! (jerb) 5. 09:07 AM - Re: Fly the plane!! (JetPilot) 6. 09:29 AM - Re: Fw: Re: ultra star (Dana Hague) 7. 11:21 AM - Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! (R. Hankins) 8. 11:49 AM - Re: Fly the plane!! (R. Hankins) 9. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) 10. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! () 11. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Dana Hague) 12. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Bob Noyer) 13. 02:53 PM - Re: TNK Website (Russ Kinne) 14. 04:54 PM - Re: Fly the plane!! (JetPilot) 15. 05:06 PM - Re: TNK Website (JetPilot) 16. 05:16 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Dana Hague) 17. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (boyd) 18. 05:55 PM - Re: tanks (Ron) 19. 06:02 PM - V speeds for MK III (grantr) 20. 07:26 PM - stalls (william sullivan) 21. 08:42 PM - Re: tanks (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 22. 09:29 PM - Re: tanks (ElleryWeld@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:42 AM PST US From: "Jeffrey Jones" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star Dana, I bought an Ultra Star from Ted and very well may be the one you are discussing. Very nice flyer and having the Firestar gear legs made it enjoyable. Below is a link of some pics that may be of interest. I have some more and movies flying the Ultra Star as well. http://www.jeffandbeckyjones.com/Kolb/Ultra%20Star/P3300043.JPG -Jeff >Time: 04:00:17 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star At 08:35 AM 3/9/2008, tc1917 wrote: >I have a pic of an ultrastar with the alum legs that someone might be >interested in. I crunched the originals in an engine out so I rebuilt >them with the plans from a friend and they were fabulous. I could not >believe how much it changed the landing characteristics. wow, >great. much better than the original. This uses the old style very small >firestar gear legs. I have the plans and pics if anyone is interested in >it. Ted Cowan. Ted, I'd like to see them. Is it something you can post, perhaps in the Yahoo Ultrastar group files section? -Dana do not archive -- End rush hour traffic now! Legalize vehicular weaponry! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:53 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: tanks Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities. These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE They have large openings and some plumbing installed. The 12V pump may be questionable though. http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y BB, sunny and windy up here this morning. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:56 AM PST US From: "Jeffrey Jones" Subject: Fw: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star Dana, This link may help in seeing more Ultra Star pics: http://www.jeffandbeckyjones.com/Kolb/ -Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey Jones Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 7:31 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star Dana, I bought an Ultra Star from Ted and very well may be the one you are discussing. Very nice flyer and having the Firestar gear legs made it enjoyable. Below is a link of some pics that may be of interest. I have some more and movies flying the Ultra Star as well. http://www.jeffandbeckyjones.com/Kolb/Ultra%20Star/P3300043.JPG -Jeff >Time: 04:00:17 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star At 08:35 AM 3/9/2008, tc1917 wrote: >I have a pic of an ultrastar with the alum legs that someone might be >interested in. I crunched the originals in an engine out so I rebuilt >them with the plans from a friend and they were fabulous. I could not >believe how much it changed the landing characteristics. wow, >great. much better than the original. This uses the old style very small >firestar gear legs. I have the plans and pics if anyone is interested in >it. Ted Cowan. Ted, I'd like to see them. Is it something you can post, perhaps in the Yahoo Ultrastar group files section? -Dana do not archive -- End rush hour traffic now! Legalize vehicular weaponry! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:39 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! Ya Henry, I'm with you. The same thought came to me as I read each off the referenced articles. Sure makes you wonder about the articles credibility when their discussing bumble bees and pictures of honey bee's are shown. jerb At 04:47 PM 3/20/2008, you wrote: > >20mar08 > >I would have more faith in those pages that refer to bumble bees, if >the photos they use showed bumble bees... rather than honey bees... > >http://hercules.users.netlink.co.uk/Bee.html > >Aloha, > >-------- >Henry >Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo > >Do Not Archive > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171332#171332 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! From: "JetPilot" It does not matter what you call it, the Kolb drop, stall, or whatever you want to label put on it, it does exist. The Kolb has a much greater tendency to lose its energy on landing, and result in a sudden drop on landing, resulting in a lot of bent gear. I have no use for people in denial, or that try to explain away facts, it is what it is. Cessna and most other GA aircraft are more forgiving on landing, that just the fact. There are a couple things you can do about Kolb Drop, the best is to install VG's on your Kolb, VG's will practically eliminate this in a Kolb, not totally eliminate, but it will make a dramatic difference. Second is to recognize this flight characteristic and learn to deal with it. I have no problem landing my Kolb, but I am not perfect, so for the times I do not execute a perfect landing, and it happens to all pilots, the VG's make it forgiving enough that I don't bend anything. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171500#171500 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:19 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Fw: Kolb-List: Re: ultra star At 09:56 AM 3/21/2008, Jeffrey Jones wrote: >Dana, > >This link may help in seeing more Ultra Star pics: > >http://www.jeffandbeckyjones.com/Kolb/ Thanks, I had already navigated back to those. Nice looking plane. -Dana -- Abandon all hope, ye who PRESS ENTER here. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:57 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Bumblebees can't fly!! From: "R. Hankins" If you read the article you will see that it is about bees in general, thus the honey bee picture. I had a similar post half written, then deleted it when I actually read the whole thing. do not archive -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171524#171524 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:49:27 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! From: "R. Hankins" Blaming bent gear legs on the plane is like blaming one's slice on the golf club or a bad serve on one's tennis racket. It is not a reflection on the equipment, but the person using it. -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171535#171535 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:49 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Versus Firefly Don G., Nice post you had there. This part of your story made me laugh. Kinda like comparing a lightweight motorcycle vs. a HOG (Harley). Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive In a message dated 3/20/2008 11:10:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donghe@one-eleven.net writes: WEll..I found out the airplane wasn't even his!...nope..he drove one a those big old MK3 hogs with that huge engine. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:50 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! where does Mike live and what does he fly? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:30 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! At 12:04 PM 3/21/2008, JetPilot wrote: >It does not matter what you call it, the Kolb drop, stall, or whatever you >want to label put on it, it does exist. The Kolb has a much greater >tendency to lose its energy on landing, and result in a sudden drop on >landing, resulting in a lot of bent gear. I have no use for people in >denial, or that try to explain away facts, it is what it is. Cessna and >most other GA aircraft are more forgiving on landing, that just the fact. I really hope we can move on to another subject. Every aircraft has its own particular stall behavior. A Cessan is different from a Piper, which is different from a P-51 which is different from a Quicksilver or... a Kolb. I haven't heard anybody denying that Kolbs fly like... well, Kolbs, but calling it the "Kolb Drop" or anything else, like it's something unusual, is absurd, as is expecting a Kolb to fly just like a Cessna (or a P-51). Taylorcrafts (which I mention because I used to own one), for example, have a tendency to float forever on landing if you don't start your flare rather early, compared to, say, a Cub (or a Kolb!), but nobody calls it the "T-Craft Travel" or anything like that. If you want to mellow your Kolb's stall behavior by installing VG's (and accepting any compromises that might entail), have at it. But it doesn't mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"), or one without VG's is "bad"; it simply reflects the preferences of the owner. -Dana -- When you get it right mighty beasts float up into the sky When you get it wrong people die -Roger Bacon (c1384) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:11 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! Regarding "poor' landings, bent legs: As a 12 yr old I had to work on an uncle's farm. I was "breaking" sod in an old pasture with two mindful mules. Couldn't seem to hold the plow handles to make a straight furrow. Uncle comes over from next field to inspect my very uneven furrows. Checks the harness, mules' bits, their ears. Diagnosis: "Son, you gotta be smartern' them mules to operate 'em." Let us spread a thick film of SeaFoam over Kolb-Quit, and let it lie (not lay). do not archive regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:23 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: TNK Website In re the Air Show from Wanaka (NZ) -- there are indeed come nifty videos there. Even one called "hitchhiking from Wanaka to Wellington" -- and I've DONE that!!! Wow, how's that for coincidence? Just google "Wanaka NZ", click on the Youtube link and you're there. Lots of fun videos & even a bunch of crashes. > > Incidentally if anyone can see the coverage of the Air Sports Show > from Wanaka, New Zealand it is worth watching. Gliding, > parachuting, free fall and crosscountry hang gliding, Tiger Moth > racing (Le Mans start) etc., > > the pics are outstanding and the computer work enables you to watch > the guys going on cross countries with comp. generated tracks in > real time, with heights.. A lot of the stuff was new to me > including racing round pylons while freefalling. A mate in NZ sent > me a DVD as we have not seen it in the UK yet. Given the way some > of the sporting stuff is chosen we may never see it. Ultralights I > understand are featured in a n episode which has not been broadcast > yet. > > Cheers > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! From: "JetPilot" Dana wrote: > At 12:04 PM 3/21/2008, JetPilot wrote: > > If you want to mellow your Kolb's stall behavior by installing VG's (and > accepting any compromises that might entail), have at it. But it doesn't > mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"), or one without VG's is > "bad"; it simply reflects the preferences of the owner. > > -Dana > > This is not a matter of " preference " , VG's improve the flying and landing characteristics of a Kolb, period. There is no downside except the 100 bucks they cost and a couple hours of work. One of the main reasons I bought a Kolb was because of its short field, and slow speed capability. Being able reduce the stall speed by 10 MPH, and have a plane with a much better feel at slow speed made VG's worth the 100 bucks they cost many times over. Getting rid of the Kolb Drop on landing was just an added bonus I did not expect. R Hankins, Aircraft manufacturers go to a lot of research and effort to make planes more forgiving and fly better. Most people and manufacturers are smart enough to recognize that good design is important. To blame bad flight characteristics of an airplane on pilots poor skills rather than fixing an obvious problem is just plain stupid. Gone are the days of airplanes that were unstable, hard to fly, and would spin at the first chance, we are fortunate that aircraft design improved rather than just blaming the pilot each time a plane went into a spin an crashed. The Kolb drop is an undesirable characteristic of the planes we fly, it is what it is. Fortunately, it is easy enough to fix for those smart enough recognize it and open minded enough to try VG's. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171611#171611 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:00 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: TNK Website From: "JetPilot" slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: > > > John, I'm sure several of us will be interested in the droop tip > comparison. I don't have a high > regard for them mostly because the industry seems to have gone the > other way with winglets. > > I think the Droop wingtips will be very successful. Droop tips work very well for STOL type aircraft, like KOLBS. If the benefit of the Droop tips is great enough, I will modify my Kolb and put them on. I'm glad to see TNK improving their planes, that is exactly what is needed to any aircraft design and company to survive long term. Homer designed the Kolb more than 20 years ago, a great design to have survived this long, but definitely should be improved to remain competitive. Winglets are mostly for saving fuel at cruise speeds, not really an issue on Kolbs. Since when have you seen winglets on STOL type airplanes ? Seems someone did not think things through very well they said they don't like droop tips because everyone else is going to winglets. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171612#171612 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:56 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! At 07:51 PM 3/21/2008, JetPilot wrote: >This is not a matter of " preference " , VG's improve the flying and >landing characteristics of a Kolb, period. There is no downside except >the 100 bucks they cost and a couple hours of work... Don't they also reduce the cruise speed somewhat? Then there's the issue of having all these things sticking out where they could be damaged, which would be an issue for those of us who regularly fold (or wash) their wings. > The Kolb drop is an undesirable characteristic of the planes we fly, it > is what it is. Fortunately, it is easy enough to fix for those smart > enough recognize it... One could say that stalls in general are "undesirable", and design them out of airplanes. It's been tried, rather successfully in the case of the Ercoupe... but it didn't remain popular because most pilots don't think of stalls as being an "undesirable" flight characteristic, just a flight condition that has to be handled appropriately. -Dana -- The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:43 PM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! Cessna and most other GA aircraft are more forgiving on landing, that just the fact. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cessna and most other GA aircraft put in quite a bit of washout in their wings.... this causes the center part of the wing to stall first while the outboard ends of the wing are still flying.. this allows for a bit softer break on a stall. The kolb with the straight wing, (no washout),,,, should, because of the wing cord and aspect ratio start stalling at the center,, but the entire wing reaches the critical angle at nearly the same time. Boyd Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:38 PM PST US From: Ron Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tanks Folks I recommend that anyone that wants a custom fuel tank get in touch with the local Boating service folks and have them fabricate you a tank for your exact specs. Its easy inexpensive and made of aluminum. I had both of my tanks fabricated that way and they are strong and exactly as I want them. Each tank, and mine are big at 14 gallons each was about 175 dollars don't know what todays prices are but should not be too much more. Measure 3 times before you order as you will get exactly what you tell them no refunds. I would to make sure fabricate the model out of cardboard to make sure it fits and is exactly the shape you want, including the fittings and whatever. Only then go and order. Ron (Arizona) ====================== ---- robert bean wrote: ============ Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities. These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE They have large openings and some plumbing installed. The 12V pump may be questionable though. http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y BB, sunny and windy up here this morning. -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:34 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: V speeds for MK III From: "grantr" Does anyone know the max speed the flaps can be deployed? How do you determine your normal approach speed? 1.3 X stall? So stall at 45 approach at about 60? We have been using 65 Also what is the VNE with out aileron counter weights? Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171626#171626 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:14 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: stalls Dana- I recieved my training on an Alon A2 Ercoupe about 40 years ago, and we could definately stall them. I could not get spin training, because Ercoupes did not have enough rudder. If I remember, the stalls were typical- quiet, light in the seat, a shudder, and a wing would start to drop. Recovery was also standard- power, and push the nose down. I think they weighed about 1300 pounds- 4 times what our Firestar l weighs. The Ercoupe took off at 55, and landed at 88. I don't remember the stall speed. Bill Sullivan FS l Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:17 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tanks Now your going to start spraying your crops with your Kolb now this I gotta see J/K Ellery in Maine do not archive In a message dated 3/21/2008 8:51:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, slyck@frontiernet.net writes: --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities. These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE They have large openings and some plumbing installed. The 12V pump may be questionable though. http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y BB, sunny and windy up here this morning. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:27 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tanks I am building my own aluminum tank and just as big as I can fit in the mk3 ,so I can stay away from this planet with the kolb dropping syndrome this world sucks Kolbs to the ground LMAO yea right Ellery do not archive In a message dated 3/21/2008 7:56:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, captainron1@cox.net writes: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron Folks I recommend that anyone that wants a custom fuel tank get in touch with the local Boating service folks and have them fabricate you a tank for your exact specs. Its easy inexpensive and made of aluminum. I had both of my tanks fabricated that way and they are strong and exactly as I want them. Each tank, and mine are big at 14 gallons each was about 175 dollars don't know what todays prices are but should not be too much more. Measure 3 times before you order as you will get exactly what you tell them no refunds. I would to make sure fabricate the model out of cardboard to make sure it fits and is exactly the shape you want, including the fittings and whatever. Only then go and order. Ron (Arizona) ====================== ---- robert bean wrote: ============ --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities. These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE They have large openings and some plumbing installed. The 12V pump may be questionable though. http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y BB, sunny and windy up here this morning. -- kugelair.com **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. 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