Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:24 AM - Re: V speeds for MK III (Dave Bigelow)
2. 04:44 AM - ceiling (william sullivan)
3. 04:51 AM - Re: tanks (Russ Kinne)
4. 05:19 AM - Re: stalls (Dana Hague)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: stalls (robert bean)
6. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: V speeds for MK III (Robert Laird)
7. 06:43 AM - Re: stalls (Eugene Zimmerman)
8. 07:10 AM - Re: tanks (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
9. 07:19 AM - Re: tanks (olendorf)
10. 07:29 AM - Re: tanks (planecrazzzy)
11. 07:31 AM - Re: stalls (robert bean)
12. 07:31 AM - Re Ceiling (Jack B. Hart)
13. 07:34 AM - Re: V speeds for MK III (boyd)
14. 08:20 AM - Re: ceiling (Larry Cottrell)
15. 08:30 AM - Aileron counterweights (Mike Welch)
16. 08:38 AM - Re: ceiling (TheWanderingWench)
17. 09:16 AM - Re: ceiling (Robert Laird)
18. 09:18 AM - Fly-in at Homer's (TK)
19. 10:06 AM - Re: Fly-in at Homer's (Eugene Zimmerman)
20. 10:19 AM - Re: Fly-in at Homer's (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft))
21. 11:15 AM - Re: Aileron counterweights (planecrazzzy)
22. 12:32 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Charlie England)
23. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (pj.ladd)
24. 02:12 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft))
25. 02:40 PM - Re: Aileron counterweights (JetPilot)
26. 02:58 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (JetPilot)
27. 03:17 PM - Re: Aileron counterweights (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
28. 04:10 PM - Re: ceiling (Dana Hague)
29. 04:15 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague)
30. 04:20 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague)
31. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft))
32. 05:02 PM - Firestar Project (william sullivan)
33. 05:31 PM - Re: Firestar Project (Dana Hague)
34. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague)
35. 06:04 PM - Firestar Project (william sullivan)
36. 06:15 PM - Re: Flying with VGs (Possums)
37. 06:42 PM - Re: Re: Flying with VGs (Larry Bourne)
38. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Flying with VGs (Eugene Zimmerman)
39. 10:19 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Ed Chmielewski)
40. 10:24 PM - Balancing act for ailerons (Mike Welch)
41. 10:31 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Ed Chmielewski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: V speeds for MK III |
Generally, for ultralights, I use 1.5 times the stall speed for approach. That
would be 45 mph approach for 30 mph stall. In the case of a 45 mph stall speed,
that works out to about 67.
Slow high drag aircraft are more affected by gusts and gradient than their larger
cousins who use 1.3 x stall speed for approach. Also, you end up with more
flare energy and can avoid the dreaded "Kolb Kwit"! [Twisted Evil]
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171671#171671
Message 2
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A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. Whenever
we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on the carb heat
to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates of the Kolbs, does
anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need carb heat?
Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l with a 447?
I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and others
have mentioned 12k.
The TNK info is vague on this.
Bill Sullivan
FS l
Windsor Locks, Ct.
Message 3
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Ellery
You may find yourself in the tank-making business!
On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:25 AM, ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote:
>
> I am building my own aluminum tank and just as big as I can fit in
> the mk3 ,so I can stay away from this planet with the kolb
> dropping syndrome this world sucks Kolbs to the ground LMAO yea right
>
> Ellery
> do not archive
>
> In a message dated 3/21/2008 7:56:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> captainron1@cox.net writes:
>
> Folks I recommend that anyone that wants a custom fuel tank get in
> touch with the local Boating service folks and have them fabricate
> you a tank for your exact specs. Its easy inexpensive and made of
> aluminum. I had both of my tanks fabricated that way and they are
> strong and exactly as I want them. Each tank, and mine are big at
> 14 gallons each was about 175 dollars don't know what todays
> prices are but should not be too much more.
> Measure 3 times before you order as you will get exactly what you
> tell them no refunds. I would to make sure fabricate the model out
> of cardboard to make sure it fits and is exactly the shape you
> want, including the fittings and whatever. Only then go and order.
>
> Ron (Arizona)
>
> ======================
>
>
> ---- robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> ============
>
> Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities.
> These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE
> They have large openings and some plumbing installed.
>
> The 12V pump may be questionable though.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y
>
> BB, sunny and windy up here this es y --> -
> MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web
> Site ; ========================
>
>
> Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
>
>
Message 4
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At 10:23 PM 3/21/2008, william sullivan wrote:
>Dana- I recieved my training on an Alon A2 Ercoupe about 40 years ago, and
>we could definately stall them. I could not get spin training, because
>Ercoupes did not have enough rudder. If I remember, the stalls were typical...
Well, I may well been mistaken. I know they can't be spun, of course, but
I thought the elevator travel was limited to prevent a stall except in the
most extreme conditions. Pull the wheel full back and it just sorta mushes
down, though it goes down pretty fast. Maybe that was only the early ones,
which also had no rudder pedals.
-Dana
do not archive
--
Dyslexics Untie!
Message 5
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I have ridden in two different ercoupes. The early models were sans
rudder pedals and you steered
on the ground with the steering wheel like a car. The elevator was
rigged to prevent true stalls and
it was supposedly spin proof. Some neanderthal types retro-fitted
rudder pedals.
The last versions manf by Alon had a more attractive bubble canopy
and O-200 continental.
The wing was stubby and high lift so the impression on take off was
like a mini airliner:
You would roar down the runway seemingly glued to the ground and then
suddenly be climbing
at a fairly steep angle.
I admired the wing design, very light aluminum with diagonal ribs
needing no drag members.
Much lighter than a MkIII wing and no lift strut.
BB
do not archive
On 22, Mar 2008, at 8:14 AM, Dana Hague wrote:
>
> At 10:23 PM 3/21/2008, william sullivan wrote:
>> Dana- I recieved my training on an Alon A2 Ercoupe about 40 years
>> ago, and we could definately stall them. I could not get spin
>> training, because Ercoupes did not have enough rudder. If I
>> remember, the stalls were typical...
>
> Well, I may well been mistaken. I know they can't be spun, of
> course, but I thought the elevator travel was limited to prevent a
> stall except in the most extreme conditions. Pull the wheel full
> back and it just sorta mushes down, though it goes down pretty
> fast. Maybe that was only the early ones, which also had no rudder
> pedals.
>
> -Dana
>
> do not archive
> --
> Dyslexics Untie!
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: V speeds for MK III |
My MkIIIC stalls at about 42mph, and I've always used 60mph as my
approach speed... which is close to the 1.5 x formula (which would be
63mph). If I feel the need for added authority, I'll approach at 65.
When I practice engine-out landing, I'll approach at 60, which is
close to best-glide, but when I'm at about 200 feet, I'll point the
nose down radically so that I get at least 65mph, so my flare (which
bleeds off a lot of speed) won't slow me down below stall by the time
I let the planet come up and kiss my wheels. :-)
On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Dave Bigelow <up_country@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Generally, for ultralights, I use 1.5 times the stall speed for approach. That
would be 45 mph approach for 30 mph stall. In the case of a 45 mph stall
speed, that works out to about 67.
>
> Slow high drag aircraft are more affected by gusts and gradient than their larger
cousins who use 1.3 x stall speed for approach. Also, you end up with more
flare energy and can avoid the dreaded "Kolb Kwit"! [Twisted Evil]
>
> --------
> Dave Bigelow
> Kamuela, Hawaii
> FS2, HKS 700E
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171671#171671
>
>
Message 7
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On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:09 AM, robert bean wrote:
> I admired the wing design, very light aluminum with diagonal ribs
> needing no drag members.
> Much lighter than a MkIII wing and no lift strut.
Really? How much weight would I save using ercoupe wings rather than
my Kolb wings on my Firestar?
Perhaps my Firestar could make part 103....... AND also totally
eliminate the infamous kolb kwit without those controversial pointy
things all over my kolb wings.
Message 8
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If I can find the time to build fuel tanks only for Kolbers I would be
willing as I am busy building planes for other guys and building Well Drilling
Rigs part time 50 hours a week for a friend
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
In a message dated 3/22/2008 6:52:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
russ@rkiphoto.com writes:
Ellery
You may find yourself in the tank-making business!
On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:25 AM, _ElleryWeld@aol.com_
(mailto:ElleryWeld@aol.com) wrote:
I am building my own aluminum tank and just as big as I can fit in the mk3
,so I can stay away from this planet with the kolb dropping syndrome this
world sucks Kolbs to the ground LMAO yea right
Ellery
do not archive
In a message dated 3/21/2008 7:56:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_captainron1@cox.net_ (mailto:captainron1@cox.net) writes:
(mailto:captainron1@cox.net) >
Folks I recommend that anyone that wants a custom fuel tank get in touch
with the local Boating service folks and have them fabricate you a tank for
your exact specs. Its easy inexpensive and made of aluminum. I had both of my
tanks fabricated that way and they are strong and exactly as I want them. Each
tank, and mine are big at 14 gallons each was about 175 dollars don't know
what todays prices are but should not be too much more.
Measure 3 times before you order as you will get exactly what you tell them
no refunds. I would to make sure fabricate the model out of cardboard to make
sure it fits and is exactly the shape you want, including the fittings and
whatever. Only then go and order.
Ron (Arizona)
======================
---- robert bean <_slyck@frontiernet.net_ (mailto:slyck@frontiernet.net) >
wrote:
============
(mailto:slyck@frontiernet.net) >
Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities.
These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE
They have large openings and some plumbing installed.
The 12V pump may be questionable though.
_http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y_ (http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y)
BB, sunny and windy up here this es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ;
____________________________________
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Message 9
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I just had an aluminum tank custom made for my Firestar by these guys.
http://www.alumiworx.com/cart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=23
It was about $180 shipped for my 8 gallon tank. Prices will vary depending on
options, size and shipping. I'm pretty happy with it but they left off the mounting
tabs. I'm currently recovering my plane so I haven't filled it with fuel
yet. I know it doesn't leak water.
I did make a cardboard tank first and that is a must. I found issues I didn't think
of when drawing it out on paper.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171701#171701
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank_480.jpg
Message 10
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A tank "COULD" hold water , but leak Diesel...
I don't know about Gas....
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
olendorf wrote:
> I just had an aluminum tank custom made for my Firestar by these guys.
>
> http://www.alumiworx.com/cart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=23
>
> It was about $180 shipped for my 8 gallon tank. Prices will vary depending on
options, size and shipping. I'm pretty happy with it but they left off the
mounting tabs. I'm currently recovering my plane so I haven't filled it with
fuel yet. I know it doesn't leak water.
>
> I did make a cardboard tank first and that is a must. I found issues I didn't
think of when drawing it out on paper.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171705#171705
Message 11
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alas there is a hitch to that idea. To use it as a cantilever
attachment a box structure would have to be
created in the center section to take the stress, thereby canceling
out any weight savings.
If an attach point was created on the spar without compromising it,
you could use a lift strut.
The early wings were fabric covered but the same neanderthals
sometimes metallized them.
The conversion would be more applicable to a MkIII than a FS.
google "breezy" for an experimental craft that used lots of different
wings, had a welded tube fuselage, and pusher
engine. -somewhat before the Kolb.
BB do not archive
On 22, Mar 2008, at 9:40 AM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:09 AM, robert bean wrote:
>
>> I admired the wing design, very light aluminum with diagonal ribs
>> needing no drag members.
>> Much lighter than a MkIII wing and no lift strut.
>
>
> Really? How much weight would I save using ercoupe wings rather
> than my Kolb wings on my Firestar?
>
> Perhaps my Firestar could make part 103....... AND also totally
> eliminate the infamous kolb kwit without those controversial
> pointy things all over my kolb wings.
>
>
Message 12
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From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: ceiling
> A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking.
Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on
the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates of
the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need carb
heat?
> Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l with a
447? I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen-
and others have mentioned 12k.
> The TNK info is vague on this.
Bill,
Don't have a ceiling answer for you, but do not assume that the Bing
carburetor will not ice up. In saturated or high humidity conditions with
the engine running with below cruise power, the Bing will ice up.
Jack B. Hart, FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 13
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| Subject: | V speeds for MK III |
Does anyone know the max speed the flaps can be deployed?
How do you determine your normal approach speed? 1.3 X stall? So stall at 45
approach at about 60? We have been using 65
Also what is the VNE with out aileron counter weights?
Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
I asked kolb the same question years back and was told that if you can pull
the handle you are ok.... I don't know what others have done but I started
the white arch at 70. According to kolb the early mkIII did not have a
gusset welded to the actuating arm and the flap torque tube. Without this
gusset the joint was much weaker and could fail with higher loads.
VNE with out aileron counter weights---- I have never seen any data showing
different vne with or without counter weights. The only thing I have seen
published is a vne of 100. (my .02 cents worth,,, if you have ever
experienced any flutter,,, keep it 15 to 20 below that speed,,, cancel
that,,, install the counter weights.)
Approach speeds.. I use 65 solo and 70 with a passenger.
Message 14
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According to the FAA (sport pilot) it is 10,000 feet. While it will go a
lot higher it just takes a loooooooong time.
Larry C
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: william sullivan
To: kolb list
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:41 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: ceiling
A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me
thinking. Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember
having to put on the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb
and descent rates of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar
engines don't need carb heat?
Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l
with a 447? I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably
with oxygen- and others have mentioned 12k.
The TNK info is vague on this.
Bill Sullivan
FS l
Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
3/21/2008 5:52 PM
Message 15
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| Subject: | Aileron counterweights |
Kolb guys,
Do any of you guys have any insight on how I should make aileron counterw
eights?
I'm at the point where I need to install them, now. My wings are completel
y finished,
and ready for fabric. I'd like to do the counterweights next, and my manua
l doesn't
address this subject, as I recall.
Specifically, what is the main objective, when making the ailerons balanc
ed (other
than the obvious!!)? Like...do you balance them WITHOUT the push-rod hooke
d up?
Or, are they balanced in flying configuration, with the push-rods hooked up
?
Hints, pointers, and especially photos, would be greatly appreciated.
Mike Welch
MkIII
_________________________________________________________________
Watch =93Cause Effect,=94 a show about real people making a real difference
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--- william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net> wrote:
... I know somebody went to
> about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and
> others have mentioned 12k.
> Bill Sullivan
>
You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you
don't stay up there very long. A friend of mine flew
his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without oxygen.
He just wanted to see how high he could take it, so
circled, circled, circled, up, up, up. At 17,700' it
just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the nose
down. I don't remember how long it took him to get up
there and back into "breathable, normal" air. If
you're interested, I can find out.
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
Maxair Drifter
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
Message 17
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On 3/22/08, TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you
> don't stay up there very long. A friend of mine flew
> his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without oxygen.
> He just wanted to see how high he could take it, so
> circled, circled, circled, up, up, up. At 17,700' it
> just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the nose
> down. I don't remember how long it took him to get up
> there and back into "breathable, normal" air. If
> you're interested, I can find out.
Arty --
I hate to say it, but, this is really bad advice to be handing out.
The decreased partial pressure of oxygen encountered at increasing
altitude can quickly lead to incapacitation or death. The lethal
effects of acute altitude hypoxia cannot be underestimated. Deaths
have occurred at altitude between 17,000 and 20,000 feet.
Even hypoxic episodes that lead to mental confusion may result
ultimately in the loss of the airplane because of the mental
disorientation during or after the episode.
The atmospheric pressure decrease at 10,000-foot altitude causes 523mm
Hg ambient air pressure resulting in 87 percent hemoglobin saturation
and 61mm Hg arterial oxygen.
At 15,000 feet (429mm Hg) the hemoglobin saturation is 80 percent (we
need 87-97 percent for normal functioning), and arterial oxygen is
44mm Hg (the body requires 60-100mm Hg.).
Every individual has a different ability to withstand such low partial
pressures, and that ability can actually change day-to-day, so it's
not predictable.
-- Robert
Message 18
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| Subject: | Fly-in at Homer's |
Kolb List members,
I've been in contact with Clara and Homer Kolb and they have agreed to
again host a fly-in at their farm which is outside of Spring City, PA,
the birth place of our fantastic flying machines. It will be held on
June 14th,, Father's Day weekend as usual. Arrive in the morning and be
there by noon for the gathering of pilots and the picnic they most
generously provide for us. It's a great time to meet the Kolb family
and other pilots that fly in from various locations. The "Barn"
contains many of Homer's early designs to take to the air. Also you can
see his tractor collection.
Many of us gather at Smoketown Airport east of Lancaster City, Lancaster
County, PA that morning to make up a flight to go to their farm, come
join us. Makes an impressive sight with ten or more planes arriving
together, Homer always enjoys that. Will update on plans as we get
close to the time. Having been well fed and sharing stories and ideas
with the other pilots, most of us leave in the afternoon to fly to an
Ultralight Fly-in at "Shreveport North" in York County, Pa where we camp
out. That fly-in starts on Friday 13th. before Homer's and lasts
through Sunday 15th.. Some have used this fly-in as a stopover from out
of state to go the Homer's. Camping is permitted with good food
available. It's scheduled again this year, but check in closer to the
date.
Those that have attended before will tell you what a great time was had
and what good people the Kolb's are. Those that haven't made it before
should try this year. You get to meet some really interesting
individuals that fly or drive in.
This is not an event that is scheduled to continue as an annual
activity, but at the pleasure and convenience of Clara, Homer and their
family. We already skipped one year because they had other plans.
The Kolb private airstrip is shown on both the New York and Washington
sectionals located northwest of Philadelphia just outside the Phila. B
ring along the Schuylkill River. You can also look it up on AirNav.com.
Hope you put this on your calender to do and I get to see you there
again or for the first time!
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fly-in at Homer's |
>>> Fly-in at Homer's ? ? ? AGAIN ? ? ? <<<
YEEE HAAAAAAAA ! ! !
Thanks Terry!
On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:15 PM, TK wrote:
> Kolb List members,
>
> I've been in contact with Clara and Homer Kolb and they have agreed
> to again host a fly-in at their farm which is outside of Spring
> City, PA, the birth place of our fantastic flying machines. It will
> be held on June 14th,, Father's Day weekend as usual. Arrive in the
> morning and be there by noon for the gathering of pilots and the
> picnic they most generously provide for us. It's a great time to
> meet the Kolb family and other pilots that fly in from various
> locations. The "Barn" contains many of Homer's early designs to
> take to the air. Also you can see his tractor collection.
>
> Many of us gather at Smoketown Airport east of Lancaster City,
> Lancaster County, PA that morning to make up a flight to go to their
> farm, come join us. Makes an impressive sight with ten or more
> planes arriving together, Homer always enjoys that. Will update on
> plans as we get close to the time. Having been well fed and sharing
> stories and ideas with the other pilots, most of us leave in the
> afternoon to fly to an Ultralight Fly-in at "Shreveport North" in
> York County, Pa where we camp out. That fly-in starts on Friday
> 13th. before Homer's and lasts through Sunday 15th.. Some have used
> this fly-in as a stopover from out of state to go the Homer's.
> Camping is permitted with good food available. It's scheduled again
> this year, but check in closer to the date.
>
> Those that have attended before will tell you what a great time was
> had and what good people the Kolb's are. Those that haven't made it
> before should try this year. You get to meet some really
> interesting individuals that fly or drive in.
>
> This is not an event that is scheduled to continue as an annual
> activity, but at the pleasure and convenience of Clara, Homer and
> their family. We already skipped one year because they had other
> plans.
>
> The Kolb private airstrip is shown on both the New York and
> Washington sectionals located northwest of Philadelphia just outside
> the Phila. B ring along the Schuylkill River. You can also look it
> up on AirNav.com.
> Hope you put this on your calender to do and I get to see you there
> again or for the first time!
>
> Terry - FireFly #95
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Fly-in at Homer's |
Hi Terry:
Thanks for the info and the work you volunteer to get this flyin
coordinated.
I have been to Homer's flyin and had a great time.
This year, I plan to fly up, as well as John W from Texas and Steven G
from Tennessee.
Look forward to seeing all the guys and gals from that part of our
country.
john h
Labhart Field, KY
I've been in contact with Clara and Homer Kolb and they have agreed
to again host a fly-in at their farm which is outside of Spring City,
PA, the birth place of our fantastic flying machines. It will be held
on June 14th,, Father's Day weekend as usual.
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron counterweights |
I balanced mine without being connected to the plane....
But later , I extended them about an inch and a half more....
Because when I'd be folding up....The aileron would "hang"
Maybe because of the "angle of the wing" compared to when I balanced
them the first time , the wing was flat...( Level )
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
Snowed in.....Workin on my Buttercup...
.
.
.
.
[quote="mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co"]Kolb guys,
Do any of you guys have any insight on how I should make aileron counterweights?
I'm at the point where I need to install them, now. My wings are completely finished,
and ready for fabric. I'd like to do the counterweights next, and my manual doesn't
address this subject, as I recall.
Specifically, what is the main objective, when making the ailerons balanced
(other
than the obvious!!)? Like...do you balance them WITHOUT the push-rod hooked up?
Or, are they balanced in flying configuration, with the push-rods hooked up?
Hints, pointers, and especially photos, would be greatly appreciated.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people makce=text_watchcause' target='_new'>Learn
more.
> [b]
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
Dana Hague wrote:
>
> I'm adding an auxiliary tank to my UltraStar... I have a pretty good
> idea of how I'll plumb it, but I'd like to collect some other opinions.
>
> My US has the stock setup with two 1.75 gallon tanks under my legs.
> I'm at a bit of a loss why the valves (the ones that plug into the
> tanks through a rubber bushing) have two outlets. The manual says to
> cap one side of one tank's valve, connect the two tanks together, and
> run the remaining outlet to the engine. When I got my plane, there
> was no cap, the tanks were connected as per the manual, and both
> outlets were connected together via a "Y" fitting, thence to the
> engine. Other than replacing all the tubing, I left it the way it was
> (but see below).
>
> I've considered moving the bulb primer to one leg of the "Y". This
> would require closing the other tank valve when priming, but with both
> valves open would give the fuel a path around the primer bulb in case
> of blockage (such a blockage in a brand new primer bulb almost ended
> my first flight before I made it around the pattern once). Thoughts?
>
> But on to the real reason for this post. The new 1.5 gallon (for a
> total of 5 gallons) tank will be mounted, quick release, to the rear
> of the seat (I'm actually mounting it to the seat back itself as I
> don't want to do any welding on the cage). I'm also using a quick
> disconnect connector in the fuel line so I can remove the tank if I
> need to carry it somewhere to be filled, for example if I land out
> somewhere and have to get fuel. The separate removable tank also
> makes oil mixing easy. Since this tank will be above the other tanks,
> I'll open the valve to drain it down when the others are half empty.
>
> The issue is plumbing. The obvious thought is to simply connect it
> via a tee fitting into the fuel lines. However, I'm concerned that
> once the aux tank is empty the fuel pump will start sucking air from
> the aux tank instead of fuel from the lower tanks, which would be a
> bad thing. :) The alternative, which seems the best approach, is to
> connect the aux tank into a new fitting on top of one of the main
> tanks... but I'm open to other thoughts and suggestions. I'm also
> naturally concerned with getting any debris from the drilling out of
> the tank (I'd rather not have to drain and remove it, etc.), and
> drilling large holes in thin plastic is a PITA anyway, so my thought
> is to drill the hole with a sharpened piece of tubing rather than a
> conventional drill.
>
> -Dana
> --
> Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock.
My neighbor acquired a Thorp T-18 in a trade a couple of years ago. It
had a baggage compartment aux tank plumbed through a shutoff into a 'T'
at the bottom of the main tank, which is between the instrument panel &
the firewall. It almost quit on him when when the aux tank emptied while
flying it home from the trade. In order to prevent it from sucking air,
the aux tank valve had to be closed before the tank was completely
empty. Bede BD-4 fliers have the same problem due to multiple fuel
pickups in each wing tank. (Yes, that's the way the fuel system was
designed.) If one pickup 'unports', it will suck air & cause fuel
starvation.
There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with this; most low wing factory
planes require you to switch tanks as the selected tank nears the empty
point to avoid sucking air from the empty tank. However, it does add
work load & cushion crimp at every tank switching event. But as you
fear, it's likely to cause engine stoppage if you forget to shut off the
aux as it empties. That might be a much bigger deal in a Kolb with its
lower inertia & the likelihood that you'll be flying closer to the
ground than would be the case in a bigger factory plane.
I'm struggling with the same decision on the RV-7 I'm building now.
It'll be much easier to plumb the aux tanks directly to the fuel
delivery line, but there's always the risk of engine stoppage when an
aux tank runs dry. (Of course, the same thing is true with the 2 stock
main tanks, also, & there are almost 5000 RVs flying with that system.)
FWIW,
Charlie
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fly the plane!! |
But it doesn't mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"),>>
Hi,
that is a strange statement. Is an "increase of 30% on the cruise without
compromising the amazing short field performance", better? I would have
said so.
This is from a flight test of the new `Savannah VG` in the April `Microlight
Flying, our major magazine.
The Savannah is quite popular here. Around 30 flying. They are all metal
with a very thick wing designed for short field performance. Previously
they were fitted with a `slot` on the leading edge. This has been done away
with in the `VG` variant and vortex generators have been fitted the full
length of the wing in its place.
In this case we are not talking about `Kolb quit` or any other name for a
stall. The Savannah has always had good low speed handling characteristics
and there is no mention in the article of landing speeds being affected by
the VG`s. There is a mention of a `very` small increase in ground roll and
thats it. It is the increase in cruise speed which has caught the observers
eye.
"The old Savannah was not exactly a sluggard with a cruise of 75-80 mph but
this one, with the same old Jabiru up front was slipping along at 100mph at
2700rpm - an astonishing 30% improvement. Gaining 5mph can take masses of
tinkering with an established design but here an apparently minor mod has
changed it from Land Rover to Range Rover in a single bound`
"The Savannah has already proved a popluar aircraft in its standard form but
3 `VG` kits have been sold and it wouldn`t surprise me if if Classic owners
didn`t choose to replace the old wing with the new. At around 1000 it seems
a snip for all that exttra performance."
All this of course begs the question Do I want VG`s or even `do I need VG`s.
As far as John H is concerned the answer to both questions is `No` and
some others agree but I think there is little point in arguing about the
effectiveness of VG`s. That is proved. They do just what it says on the tin.
I hereby solemnly swear that I will not ever, ever, ever, write another word
to the list about VG`s
Cheers
Pat
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
> My neighbor acquired a Thorp T-18 in a trade a couple of years ago. It
> had a baggage compartment aux tank plumbed through a shutoff into a 'T' at
> the bottom of the main tank, which is between the instrument panel & the
> firewall. It almost quit on him when when the aux tank emptied while
> flying it home from the trade. In order to prevent it from sucking air,
> the aux tank valve had to be closed before the tank was completely empty.
> Charlie
Charlie/Dana:
I built and flew an US and FS that both had aux tanks that gravity fed into
the main tank(s). IIRC I plumbed them into the tanks and not into a T.
Plastic tanks are easy to work with when adding additional fittings. I
never pulled fuel from the tops, but from the bottoms of tanks, using the
large rubber grommets and special outlet fittings that pushed into them.
With approximately 1,500 hours on both aircraft, I never experienced any
problem with the fuel fittings or with my systems.
Take care,
john h
Labhart Field, KY
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron counterweights |
Mike,
Here is a good article on how to balance control surfaces.
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
Also attached are some pictures of the aileron counter balances on my plane, as
well as a MK III classic. If you need more detailed pictures of how they are
attached into the aileron tubes, let me know and I will take some. After
reading some reports of minor flutter in the Rudder of some Kolbs, I also counter
balanced the rudder in much the same way as ailerons.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
I put a 6 gallon Aux tank in my Kolb MK III to give me 16 gallons total fuel.
I did not want to complicate the fuel system or run any risk of having my motor
quit due to fuel mismanagement by myself ( Made it idiot proof in case I get
distracted ). What I did was have the AUX tank feed into an electric Facett
pump with an on - off valve. I fly until my main tank get empty enough to take
the extra 6 gallons, at which ponit I open the valve and turn on the pump
which fills up the stock mains on my MK III in flight.
If I forget and leave it on and forget the valve, no harm done, it pumps until
empty and then I hear the pump rattling as it starts to suck air when there is
no more to pump into the mains. If I pump to early, it just over fills the
mains and runs out the vent tube out to bottom of the plane, I lose some gas,
but no harm done. Even a failure of any part of the aux fuel system, the fuel
hose, pump, valve, etc will not result in engine failure. No matter what I
do with this system, there is no way to screw it up to the point of making the
engine quit.
I added the aux tank and extra 6 gallons of fuel to my stock MK III fuel system
with no modification to the cage or original fuel system. When I buy the new
18 gallon tank from TNK I will have 24 gallons of fuel as the AUX will work with
the new tank the same way it works with the stock tanks. What I really like
about this AUX tank is that I always leave it empty unless I am flying cross
country, so for the vast majority of my local flights, only fill the mains with
no weight penalty from carrying extra gas. Cost was less than 150 dollars
for everything. I can post pictures and schematics for anyone that wants them.
Mike
I can post pictures and schematic if anyone is interested.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron counterweights |
Mike
just like on Large aircraft I would think, Un hook all linkage and make th
e
aileron balance on the hindgepoint
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:30:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com writes:
Kolb guys,
Do any of you guys have any insight on how I should make aileron
counterweights?
I'm at the point where I need to install them, now. My wings are completel
y
finished,
and ready for fabric. I'd like to do the counterweights next, and my manua
l
doesn't
address this subject, as I recall.
Specifically, what is the main objective, when making the ailerons balanced
(other
than the obvious!!)? Like...do you balance them WITHOUT the push-rod hooke
d
up?
Or, are they balanced in flying configuration, with the push-rods hooked u
p?
Hints, pointers, and especially photos, would be greatly appreciated.
Mike Welch
MkIII
____________________________________
Watch =9CCause Effect,=9D a show about real people makce=text_
watchcause'
target='_new'>Learn more.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol
hom00030000000001)
Message 28
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At 07:41 AM 3/22/2008, william sullivan wrote:
> A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking.
> Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on
> the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates
> of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need
> carb heat?
My understanding is that while icing is possible (and does occasionally
happen), it's less likely for three reasons: First, the slide carburetors
we use are less likely to ice up than the butterfly type used on
conventional engines; the oil mixed with the gas makes ice less likely to
adhere to the carburetor surfaces, and the nature of the 2-stroke induction
means some mixture is blown back part way into the manifold / carburetor
before the piston covers the inlet port, heating and/or dislodging any ice.
This was some of the information I was given last year when I thought I had
an icing problem, but it turned out to be a jetting problem (too rich for
the hot humid weather I was flying in).
That said, there _are_ outfits making electric carburetor heaters for Bing
carburetors (basically a heated plate that sandwiches between the carb and
manifold.
-Dana
--
Stupidity got us into this mess... why can't it get us out?
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
At 03:28 PM 3/22/2008, Charlie England wrote:
>...But as you fear, it's likely to cause engine stoppage if you forget to
>shut off the aux as it empties. That might be a much bigger deal in a Kolb
>with its lower inertia & the likelihood that you'll be flying closer to
>the ground than would be the case in a bigger factory plane...
Of course it's less of an issue in a conventional plane, too, because the
prop will continue to windmill, and the engine will restart as soon as fuel
is restored.
I don't recall how my T-Craft was plumbed, but there was no issue leaving
the aux wing tank valve open even after it was fully drained into the main
tank. But, come to think of it, with gravity feed all the way to the
carburetor it wouldn't be an issue anyway. Sometimes it WAS an issue if it
failed to start draining when the main tank was empty and the fuel was
needed, but that's another story...
-Dana
--
If we wish to "restore" respect for the law, a good start would be to
pass only laws that people will respect.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
At 05:24 PM 3/22/2008, Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft) wrote:
>I built and flew an US and FS that both had aux tanks that gravity fed
>into the main tank(s). IIRC I plumbed them into the tanks and not into a T.
>
>Plastic tanks are easy to work with when adding additional fittings. I
>never pulled fuel from the tops, but from the bottoms of tanks, using the
>large rubber grommets and special outlet fittings that pushed into them.
By "I never pulled fuel from the tops" I presume you mean fittings in the
bottom as opposed to the dip tube fittings about halfway up that is the US
stock setup (I think)?
I ordered the push in / rubber grommet fitting with the screen and valve
for the aux tank, and I'll run it into the side of one of the main tanks
wherever it's convenient. I'll also use a self sealing quick disconnect in
the fuel line so I can remove the tank when necessary.
-Dana
--
If we wish to "restore" respect for the law, a good start would be to
pass only laws that people will respect.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
( Made it idiot proof in case I get distracted ). What I did was have the
AUX tank feed into an electric Facett pump with an on - off valve. I fly
until my main tank get empty enough to take the extra 6 gallons, at which
ponit I open the valve and turn on the pump which fills up the stock mains
on my MK III in flight.
>
> If I forget and leave it on and forget the valve, no harm done, it pumps
> until empty and then I hear the pump rattling as it starts to suck air
> when there is no more to pump into the mains.
>
>
> Mike
Mike B:
What do you do if the idiot forgets to turn on the vlave and start the pump
before the mains are empty?
If you put an operator in the cycle, in my opinion, it ain't idiot proof.
No way I could hear my electric fuel pump rattling in flight, not unless the
engine was shut down.
I fly with 25 gal of fuel in one tank. If I run out of that, then I'm the
idiot. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Labhart Field, KY
Message 32
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| Subject: | Firestar Project |
Busy day today- decent weather, and everybody left me alone. The KXP wings are
now fully mounted and aligned. The aileron control rods are cut and welded,
and being painted tomorrow. I changed both landing gear legs, as they were mis-matched
and both bent. Tomorrow- paint the rods, install and adjust. Tighten
and maybe re-locate the fuel pump- the aileron control horn bumps or is really
close when folded. Maybe fix the ASI static line, and a little glue on some loose
windshield trim. Progress, anyway.
Dana etc., the Ercoupes I flew - 3 or 4 different ones- all had the bubble
canopy and rudder pedals. they were fairly new (in 1968) and had only minor differences.
They cost $9700 back then, new. Lessons were $20 an hour- $14 for the
plane (with gas) and $6 for the instructor.
Bill Sullivan
FS l
Windsor Locks, Ct.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Project |
At 07:59 PM 3/22/2008, william sullivan wrote:
> Busy day today- decent weather, and everybody left me alone. The KXP
> wings are now fully mounted...
How soon do you think until you're ready to fly it?
> Dana etc., the Ercoupes I flew - 3 or 4 different ones- all had the
> bubble canopy and rudder pedals. they were fairly new (in 1968) and had
> only minor differences. They cost $9700 back then, new. Lessons were $20
> an hour- $14 for the plane (with gas) and $6 for the instructor.
Ah, the good old days! :) When I learned to fly in 1976 the C-150 was $15
wet and the instructor $10.
The only Ercoupe I ever flew (once) was an older (40's?) with no rudder
pedals. This was back in the mid 80's I guess. Didn't care for it all
that much, but I was in a "real men fly taildraggers" frame of mind...
hmmm, come to think of it I guess I still am! :)
-Dana
--
Income tax: capital punishment.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank |
At 07:46 PM 3/22/2008, Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft) wrote:
>What do you do if the idiot forgets to turn on the vlave and start the
>pump before the mains are empty?
>
>If you put an operator in the cycle, in my opinion, it ain't idiot proof.
Been there, done [something like] that... filled the main tank in the
T-Craft, then the aux tank, forgetting to closed the valve. Soaked the
whole front of the plane with avgas, then had to wait hours for it to dry,
hoping nobody would walk by with a lit cigarette. Worst part was I was in
a hurry, en route from NJ to Ohio, with sunset looming.
-Dana
do not archive this pointless anecdote...
--
Income tax: capital punishment.
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| Subject: | Firestar Project |
Dana- The plane should be ready in a couple of weeks- weather and interruptions
permitting. I still have to make a wheel dolly that I can use with the wings
folded. I also should find and modify a boat trailer, even if other transport
is available. We also have to take a couple of refresher courses. I am usually
lucky where my neck is concerned,but I do manage random acts of pure stupidity,
just for variety. I would rather depend on training than memory, and my
reading of air maps has been long gone.
do not archive
Bill Sullivan
FS l
Windsor Locks, Ct.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with VGs |
[quote="jb92563"]Possums,
Love that landing movie....quote]
So .......I'm trying to find out how you can add attachments to this part of the
list "Read this topic online here" without affecting the "email" part of the
list and forcing people to have to download something they don't choose to?
Got any idea? or "How do you do it"?
--------
Possum
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171827#171827
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with VGs |
Only way I know of is to publish it, then put the link in the email to
the List. A regular attachment will open automatically with the message
and cause grief to those on dial up. Not fair to
'em. Lar. Do not Archive.
Possums wrote:
>
> [quote="jb92563"]Possums,
>
> Love that landing movie....quote]
>
> So .......I'm trying to find out how you can add attachments to this part of
the list "Read this topic online here" without affecting the "email" part of the
list and forcing people to have to download something they don't choose to?
> Got any idea? or "How do you do it"?
>
> --------
> Possum
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171827#171827
>
>
>
--
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
www.gogittum.com/blog
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with VGs |
Possum,
Just sign up for a free Google Gmail account and you will have all the
space you need to up load photos, documents, videos and more.
Then you can link it to any email you wish.
Here is an example of a document I just did.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d3jhg27_0fr7x2tcf
On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Possums wrote:
>
> [quote="jb92563"]Possums,
>
> Love that landing movie....quote]
>
> So .......I'm trying to find out how you can add attachments to this
> part of the list "Read this topic online here" without affecting the
> "email" part of the list and forcing people to have to download
> something they don't choose to?
> Got any idea? or "How do you do it"?
>
> --------
> Possum
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171827#171827
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Fly the plane!! |
Roger/All,
Exactly. It's merely a stall, why blame the aircraft?
Dad was a cabinetmaker. He had a saying, "'It's a poor workman who
blames his tools." Sorry guys, but if it quacks and smells like one....
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks@grantspass.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 2:46 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!!
>
> Blaming bent gear legs on the plane is like blaming one's slice on the
> golf club or a bad serve on one's tennis racket. It is not a reflection
> on the equipment, but the person using it.
>
> --------
> Roger in Oregon
> 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171535#171535
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Balancing act for ailerons |
Mike B., Rick, Ellery, & Mike & Jaz, Thanks a ton, guys, for your helpfu
l tips. (But, seriously, did Jaz really help out much? Hmm?)Thanks especi
ally to Mike B. for the Tony Bingelis article and Mike's Bigelow's counterb
alance/aileronphotos, and to Rick G. for the methodical steps involved. I
have plenty of useful information to build the counterbalances.....and wil
l wait until the aileron is completely finished before "locking in" the fin
al weight position. Muchas gracias, amigos. Just in case no one else as
ks, Mike B., yes, I'd like to see that extra 6 gallon tank setup.Maybe in t
he future, if the present 10 gallons (4+ hours plus reserve) I have isn't e
nough, I may want to add an extra 3 hours of flying with the 6 gallon tank.
Mike WelchMkIII PS Has anyone ever heard of "Tar Baby?" Building my pl
ane reminds me of Br'er Rabbit and Tar Baby.
I can't seem to touch one thing...without having to get stuck doing somethi
ng else. And the young guys
are saying "what the heck is a Tar Baby"!!
Do Not Archive
_________________________________________________________________
Watch =93Cause Effect,=94 a show about real people making a real difference
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Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Fly the plane!! |
Hi Pat,
Despite all the good they do, I doubt the VG's in this case are
responsible for the increased cruise speed. More likely is the removal of
the leading-edge slot. In some cases, VG's can cause a slight decrease in
cruise.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!!
>
> But it doesn't mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"),>>
>
> Hi,
(Snip)
There is a mention of a `very` small increase in ground roll and
> thats it. It is the increase in cruise speed which has caught the
> observers eye.
>
> "The old Savannah was not exactly a sluggard with a cruise of 75-80 mph
> but this one, with the same old Jabiru up front was slipping along at
> 100mph at 2700rpm - an astonishing 30% improvement.
(Snip)
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
>
>
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