---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/22/08: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:24 AM - Re: V speeds for MK III (Dave Bigelow) 2. 04:44 AM - ceiling (william sullivan) 3. 04:51 AM - Re: tanks (Russ Kinne) 4. 05:19 AM - Re: stalls (Dana Hague) 5. 06:12 AM - Re: stalls (robert bean) 6. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: V speeds for MK III (Robert Laird) 7. 06:43 AM - Re: stalls (Eugene Zimmerman) 8. 07:10 AM - Re: tanks (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 9. 07:19 AM - Re: tanks (olendorf) 10. 07:29 AM - Re: tanks (planecrazzzy) 11. 07:31 AM - Re: stalls (robert bean) 12. 07:31 AM - Re Ceiling (Jack B. Hart) 13. 07:34 AM - Re: V speeds for MK III (boyd) 14. 08:20 AM - Re: ceiling (Larry Cottrell) 15. 08:30 AM - Aileron counterweights (Mike Welch) 16. 08:38 AM - Re: ceiling (TheWanderingWench) 17. 09:16 AM - Re: ceiling (Robert Laird) 18. 09:18 AM - Fly-in at Homer's (TK) 19. 10:06 AM - Re: Fly-in at Homer's (Eugene Zimmerman) 20. 10:19 AM - Re: Fly-in at Homer's (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)) 21. 11:15 AM - Re: Aileron counterweights (planecrazzzy) 22. 12:32 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Charlie England) 23. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (pj.ladd) 24. 02:12 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)) 25. 02:40 PM - Re: Aileron counterweights (JetPilot) 26. 02:58 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (JetPilot) 27. 03:17 PM - Re: Aileron counterweights (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 28. 04:10 PM - Re: ceiling (Dana Hague) 29. 04:15 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague) 30. 04:20 PM - Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague) 31. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)) 32. 05:02 PM - Firestar Project (william sullivan) 33. 05:31 PM - Re: Firestar Project (Dana Hague) 34. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank (Dana Hague) 35. 06:04 PM - Firestar Project (william sullivan) 36. 06:15 PM - Re: Flying with VGs (Possums) 37. 06:42 PM - Re: Re: Flying with VGs (Larry Bourne) 38. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Flying with VGs (Eugene Zimmerman) 39. 10:19 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Ed Chmielewski) 40. 10:24 PM - Balancing act for ailerons (Mike Welch) 41. 10:31 PM - Re: Re: Fly the plane!! (Ed Chmielewski) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:16 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: V speeds for MK III From: "Dave Bigelow" Generally, for ultralights, I use 1.5 times the stall speed for approach. That would be 45 mph approach for 30 mph stall. In the case of a 45 mph stall speed, that works out to about 67. Slow high drag aircraft are more affected by gusts and gradient than their larger cousins who use 1.3 x stall speed for approach. Also, you end up with more flare energy and can avoid the dreaded "Kolb Kwit"! [Twisted Evil] -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171671#171671 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:25 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: ceiling A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need carb heat? Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l with a 447? I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and others have mentioned 12k. The TNK info is vague on this. Bill Sullivan FS l Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:28 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tanks Ellery You may find yourself in the tank-making business! On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:25 AM, ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote: > > I am building my own aluminum tank and just as big as I can fit in > the mk3 ,so I can stay away from this planet with the kolb > dropping syndrome this world sucks Kolbs to the ground LMAO yea right > > Ellery > do not archive > > In a message dated 3/21/2008 7:56:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > captainron1@cox.net writes: > > Folks I recommend that anyone that wants a custom fuel tank get in > touch with the local Boating service folks and have them fabricate > you a tank for your exact specs. Its easy inexpensive and made of > aluminum. I had both of my tanks fabricated that way and they are > strong and exactly as I want them. Each tank, and mine are big at > 14 gallons each was about 175 dollars don't know what todays > prices are but should not be too much more. > Measure 3 times before you order as you will get exactly what you > tell them no refunds. I would to make sure fabricate the model out > of cardboard to make sure it fits and is exactly the shape you > want, including the fittings and whatever. Only then go and order. > > Ron (Arizona) > > ====================== > > > ---- robert bean wrote: > > ============ > > Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities. > These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE > They have large openings and some plumbing installed. > > The 12V pump may be questionable though. > > http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y > > BB, sunny and windy up here this es y --> - > MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web > Site ; ======================== > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:05 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: stalls At 10:23 PM 3/21/2008, william sullivan wrote: >Dana- I recieved my training on an Alon A2 Ercoupe about 40 years ago, and >we could definately stall them. I could not get spin training, because >Ercoupes did not have enough rudder. If I remember, the stalls were typical... Well, I may well been mistaken. I know they can't be spun, of course, but I thought the elevator travel was limited to prevent a stall except in the most extreme conditions. Pull the wheel full back and it just sorta mushes down, though it goes down pretty fast. Maybe that was only the early ones, which also had no rudder pedals. -Dana do not archive -- Dyslexics Untie! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:27 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: stalls I have ridden in two different ercoupes. The early models were sans rudder pedals and you steered on the ground with the steering wheel like a car. The elevator was rigged to prevent true stalls and it was supposedly spin proof. Some neanderthal types retro-fitted rudder pedals. The last versions manf by Alon had a more attractive bubble canopy and O-200 continental. The wing was stubby and high lift so the impression on take off was like a mini airliner: You would roar down the runway seemingly glued to the ground and then suddenly be climbing at a fairly steep angle. I admired the wing design, very light aluminum with diagonal ribs needing no drag members. Much lighter than a MkIII wing and no lift strut. BB do not archive On 22, Mar 2008, at 8:14 AM, Dana Hague wrote: > > At 10:23 PM 3/21/2008, william sullivan wrote: >> Dana- I recieved my training on an Alon A2 Ercoupe about 40 years >> ago, and we could definately stall them. I could not get spin >> training, because Ercoupes did not have enough rudder. If I >> remember, the stalls were typical... > > Well, I may well been mistaken. I know they can't be spun, of > course, but I thought the elevator travel was limited to prevent a > stall except in the most extreme conditions. Pull the wheel full > back and it just sorta mushes down, though it goes down pretty > fast. Maybe that was only the early ones, which also had no rudder > pedals. > > -Dana > > do not archive > -- > Dyslexics Untie! > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:44 AM PST US From: "Robert Laird" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: V speeds for MK III My MkIIIC stalls at about 42mph, and I've always used 60mph as my approach speed... which is close to the 1.5 x formula (which would be 63mph). If I feel the need for added authority, I'll approach at 65. When I practice engine-out landing, I'll approach at 60, which is close to best-glide, but when I'm at about 200 feet, I'll point the nose down radically so that I get at least 65mph, so my flare (which bleeds off a lot of speed) won't slow me down below stall by the time I let the planet come up and kiss my wheels. :-) On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Dave Bigelow wrote: > > Generally, for ultralights, I use 1.5 times the stall speed for approach. That would be 45 mph approach for 30 mph stall. In the case of a 45 mph stall speed, that works out to about 67. > > Slow high drag aircraft are more affected by gusts and gradient than their larger cousins who use 1.3 x stall speed for approach. Also, you end up with more flare energy and can avoid the dreaded "Kolb Kwit"! [Twisted Evil] > > -------- > Dave Bigelow > Kamuela, Hawaii > FS2, HKS 700E > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171671#171671 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:32 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: stalls On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:09 AM, robert bean wrote: > I admired the wing design, very light aluminum with diagonal ribs > needing no drag members. > Much lighter than a MkIII wing and no lift strut. Really? How much weight would I save using ercoupe wings rather than my Kolb wings on my Firestar? Perhaps my Firestar could make part 103....... AND also totally eliminate the infamous kolb kwit without those controversial pointy things all over my kolb wings. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:50 AM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tanks If I can find the time to build fuel tanks only for Kolbers I would be willing as I am busy building planes for other guys and building Well Drilling Rigs part time 50 hours a week for a friend Ellery in Maine do not archive In a message dated 3/22/2008 6:52:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, russ@rkiphoto.com writes: Ellery You may find yourself in the tank-making business! On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:25 AM, _ElleryWeld@aol.com_ (mailto:ElleryWeld@aol.com) wrote: I am building my own aluminum tank and just as big as I can fit in the mk3 ,so I can stay away from this planet with the kolb dropping syndrome this world sucks Kolbs to the ground LMAO yea right Ellery do not archive In a message dated 3/21/2008 7:56:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, _captainron1@cox.net_ (mailto:captainron1@cox.net) writes: (mailto:captainron1@cox.net) > Folks I recommend that anyone that wants a custom fuel tank get in touch with the local Boating service folks and have them fabricate you a tank for your exact specs. Its easy inexpensive and made of aluminum. I had both of my tanks fabricated that way and they are strong and exactly as I want them. Each tank, and mine are big at 14 gallons each was about 175 dollars don't know what todays prices are but should not be too much more. Measure 3 times before you order as you will get exactly what you tell them no refunds. I would to make sure fabricate the model out of cardboard to make sure it fits and is exactly the shape you want, including the fittings and whatever. Only then go and order. Ron (Arizona) ====================== ---- robert bean <_slyck@frontiernet.net_ (mailto:slyck@frontiernet.net) > wrote: ============ (mailto:slyck@frontiernet.net) > Group, here's a thought about gas tank possibilities. These are very heavy wall plastic, most likely HDPE They have large openings and some plumbing installed. The 12V pump may be questionable though. _http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y_ (http://tinyurl.com/29bh7y) BB, sunny and windy up here this es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ; ____________________________________ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. _Watch the video on AOL Home_ (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0003000000000 1) . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: tanks From: "olendorf" I just had an aluminum tank custom made for my Firestar by these guys. http://www.alumiworx.com/cart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=23 It was about $180 shipped for my 8 gallon tank. Prices will vary depending on options, size and shipping. I'm pretty happy with it but they left off the mounting tabs. I'm currently recovering my plane so I haven't filled it with fuel yet. I know it doesn't leak water. I did make a cardboard tank first and that is a must. I found issues I didn't think of when drawing it out on paper. -------- Scott Olendorf Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop Schenectady, NY http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171701#171701 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank_480.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: tanks From: "planecrazzzy" A tank "COULD" hold water , but leak Diesel... I don't know about Gas.... Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN .. .. .. olendorf wrote: > I just had an aluminum tank custom made for my Firestar by these guys. > > http://www.alumiworx.com/cart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=23 > > It was about $180 shipped for my 8 gallon tank. Prices will vary depending on options, size and shipping. I'm pretty happy with it but they left off the mounting tabs. I'm currently recovering my plane so I haven't filled it with fuel yet. I know it doesn't leak water. > > I did make a cardboard tank first and that is a must. I found issues I didn't think of when drawing it out on paper. -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171705#171705 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:00 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: stalls alas there is a hitch to that idea. To use it as a cantilever attachment a box structure would have to be created in the center section to take the stress, thereby canceling out any weight savings. If an attach point was created on the spar without compromising it, you could use a lift strut. The early wings were fabric covered but the same neanderthals sometimes metallized them. The conversion would be more applicable to a MkIII than a FS. google "breezy" for an experimental craft that used lots of different wings, had a welded tube fuselage, and pusher engine. -somewhat before the Kolb. BB do not archive On 22, Mar 2008, at 9:40 AM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: > > > On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:09 AM, robert bean wrote: > >> I admired the wing design, very light aluminum with diagonal ribs >> needing no drag members. >> Much lighter than a MkIII wing and no lift strut. > > > Really? How much weight would I save using ercoupe wings rather > than my Kolb wings on my Firestar? > > Perhaps my Firestar could make part 103....... AND also totally > eliminate the infamous kolb kwit without those controversial > pointy things all over my kolb wings. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:46 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Re Ceiling From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: ceiling > A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need carb heat? > Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l with a 447? I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and others have mentioned 12k. > The TNK info is vague on this. Bill, Don't have a ceiling answer for you, but do not assume that the Bing carburetor will not ice up. In saturated or high humidity conditions with the engine running with below cruise power, the Bing will ice up. Jack B. Hart, FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:53 AM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: V speeds for MK III Does anyone know the max speed the flaps can be deployed? How do you determine your normal approach speed? 1.3 X stall? So stall at 45 approach at about 60? We have been using 65 Also what is the VNE with out aileron counter weights? Thanks >>>>>>>>>>> I asked kolb the same question years back and was told that if you can pull the handle you are ok.... I don't know what others have done but I started the white arch at 70. According to kolb the early mkIII did not have a gusset welded to the actuating arm and the flap torque tube. Without this gusset the joint was much weaker and could fail with higher loads. VNE with out aileron counter weights---- I have never seen any data showing different vne with or without counter weights. The only thing I have seen published is a vne of 100. (my .02 cents worth,,, if you have ever experienced any flutter,,, keep it 15 to 20 below that speed,,, cancel that,,, install the counter weights.) Approach speeds.. I use 65 solo and 70 with a passenger. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:38 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ceiling According to the FAA (sport pilot) it is 10,000 feet. While it will go a lot higher it just takes a loooooooong time. Larry C do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: william sullivan To: kolb list Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:41 AM Subject: Kolb-List: ceiling A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need carb heat? Also, does anyone know the rated service ceiling of a Firestar l with a 447? I know somebody went to about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and others have mentioned 12k. The TNK info is vague on this. Bill Sullivan FS l Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 3/21/2008 5:52 PM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:06 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Aileron counterweights Kolb guys, Do any of you guys have any insight on how I should make aileron counterw eights? I'm at the point where I need to install them, now. My wings are completel y finished, and ready for fabric. I'd like to do the counterweights next, and my manua l doesn't address this subject, as I recall. Specifically, what is the main objective, when making the ailerons balanc ed (other than the obvious!!)? Like...do you balance them WITHOUT the push-rod hooke d up? Or, are they balanced in flying configuration, with the push-rods hooked up ? Hints, pointers, and especially photos, would be greatly appreciated. Mike Welch MkIII _________________________________________________________________ Watch =93Cause Effect,=94 a show about real people making a real difference . Learn more. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:02 AM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ceiling --- william sullivan wrote: ... I know somebody went to > about 17k with a Kolb- presumably with oxygen- and > others have mentioned 12k. > Bill Sullivan > You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you don't stay up there very long. A friend of mine flew his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without oxygen. He just wanted to see how high he could take it, so circled, circled, circled, up, up, up. At 17,700' it just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the nose down. I don't remember how long it took him to get up there and back into "breathable, normal" air. If you're interested, I can find out. Arty Trost Sandy, Oregon Maxair Drifter www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com "Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:42 AM PST US From: "Robert Laird" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ceiling On 3/22/08, TheWanderingWench wrote: > You can go pretty high without oxygen as long as you > don't stay up there very long. A friend of mine flew > his Thundergull with a 447 to 17,700' without oxygen. > He just wanted to see how high he could take it, so > circled, circled, circled, up, up, up. At 17,700' it > just wouldn't climb any more, and he pointed the nose > down. I don't remember how long it took him to get up > there and back into "breathable, normal" air. If > you're interested, I can find out. Arty -- I hate to say it, but, this is really bad advice to be handing out. The decreased partial pressure of oxygen encountered at increasing altitude can quickly lead to incapacitation or death. The lethal effects of acute altitude hypoxia cannot be underestimated. Deaths have occurred at altitude between 17,000 and 20,000 feet. Even hypoxic episodes that lead to mental confusion may result ultimately in the loss of the airplane because of the mental disorientation during or after the episode. The atmospheric pressure decrease at 10,000-foot altitude causes 523mm Hg ambient air pressure resulting in 87 percent hemoglobin saturation and 61mm Hg arterial oxygen. At 15,000 feet (429mm Hg) the hemoglobin saturation is 80 percent (we need 87-97 percent for normal functioning), and arterial oxygen is 44mm Hg (the body requires 60-100mm Hg.). Every individual has a different ability to withstand such low partial pressures, and that ability can actually change day-to-day, so it's not predictable. -- Robert ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:33 AM PST US From: TK Subject: Kolb-List: Fly-in at Homer's Kolb List members, I've been in contact with Clara and Homer Kolb and they have agreed to again host a fly-in at their farm which is outside of Spring City, PA, the birth place of our fantastic flying machines. It will be held on June 14th,, Father's Day weekend as usual. Arrive in the morning and be there by noon for the gathering of pilots and the picnic they most generously provide for us. It's a great time to meet the Kolb family and other pilots that fly in from various locations. The "Barn" contains many of Homer's early designs to take to the air. Also you can see his tractor collection. Many of us gather at Smoketown Airport east of Lancaster City, Lancaster County, PA that morning to make up a flight to go to their farm, come join us. Makes an impressive sight with ten or more planes arriving together, Homer always enjoys that. Will update on plans as we get close to the time. Having been well fed and sharing stories and ideas with the other pilots, most of us leave in the afternoon to fly to an Ultralight Fly-in at "Shreveport North" in York County, Pa where we camp out. That fly-in starts on Friday 13th. before Homer's and lasts through Sunday 15th.. Some have used this fly-in as a stopover from out of state to go the Homer's. Camping is permitted with good food available. It's scheduled again this year, but check in closer to the date. Those that have attended before will tell you what a great time was had and what good people the Kolb's are. Those that haven't made it before should try this year. You get to meet some really interesting individuals that fly or drive in. This is not an event that is scheduled to continue as an annual activity, but at the pleasure and convenience of Clara, Homer and their family. We already skipped one year because they had other plans. The Kolb private airstrip is shown on both the New York and Washington sectionals located northwest of Philadelphia just outside the Phila. B ring along the Schuylkill River. You can also look it up on AirNav.com. Hope you put this on your calender to do and I get to see you there again or for the first time! Terry - FireFly #95 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:51 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fly-in at Homer's >>> Fly-in at Homer's ? ? ? AGAIN ? ? ? <<< YEEE HAAAAAAAA ! ! ! Thanks Terry! On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:15 PM, TK wrote: > Kolb List members, > > I've been in contact with Clara and Homer Kolb and they have agreed > to again host a fly-in at their farm which is outside of Spring > City, PA, the birth place of our fantastic flying machines. It will > be held on June 14th,, Father's Day weekend as usual. Arrive in the > morning and be there by noon for the gathering of pilots and the > picnic they most generously provide for us. It's a great time to > meet the Kolb family and other pilots that fly in from various > locations. The "Barn" contains many of Homer's early designs to > take to the air. Also you can see his tractor collection. > > Many of us gather at Smoketown Airport east of Lancaster City, > Lancaster County, PA that morning to make up a flight to go to their > farm, come join us. Makes an impressive sight with ten or more > planes arriving together, Homer always enjoys that. Will update on > plans as we get close to the time. Having been well fed and sharing > stories and ideas with the other pilots, most of us leave in the > afternoon to fly to an Ultralight Fly-in at "Shreveport North" in > York County, Pa where we camp out. That fly-in starts on Friday > 13th. before Homer's and lasts through Sunday 15th.. Some have used > this fly-in as a stopover from out of state to go the Homer's. > Camping is permitted with good food available. It's scheduled again > this year, but check in closer to the date. > > Those that have attended before will tell you what a great time was > had and what good people the Kolb's are. Those that haven't made it > before should try this year. You get to meet some really > interesting individuals that fly or drive in. > > This is not an event that is scheduled to continue as an annual > activity, but at the pleasure and convenience of Clara, Homer and > their family. We already skipped one year because they had other > plans. > > The Kolb private airstrip is shown on both the New York and > Washington sectionals located northwest of Philadelphia just outside > the Phila. B ring along the Schuylkill River. You can also look it > up on AirNav.com. > Hope you put this on your calender to do and I get to see you there > again or for the first time! > > Terry - FireFly #95 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:56 AM PST US From: "Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fly-in at Homer's Hi Terry: Thanks for the info and the work you volunteer to get this flyin coordinated. I have been to Homer's flyin and had a great time. This year, I plan to fly up, as well as John W from Texas and Steven G from Tennessee. Look forward to seeing all the guys and gals from that part of our country. john h Labhart Field, KY I've been in contact with Clara and Homer Kolb and they have agreed to again host a fly-in at their farm which is outside of Spring City, PA, the birth place of our fantastic flying machines. It will be held on June 14th,, Father's Day weekend as usual. Terry - FireFly #95 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron counterweights From: "planecrazzzy" I balanced mine without being connected to the plane.... But later , I extended them about an inch and a half more.... Because when I'd be folding up....The aileron would "hang" Maybe because of the "angle of the wing" compared to when I balanced them the first time , the wing was flat...( Level ) Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN Snowed in.....Workin on my Buttercup... .. .. .. .. [quote="mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co"]Kolb guys, Do any of you guys have any insight on how I should make aileron counterweights? I'm at the point where I need to install them, now. My wings are completely finished, and ready for fabric. I'd like to do the counterweights next, and my manual doesn't address this subject, as I recall. Specifically, what is the main objective, when making the ailerons balanced (other than the obvious!!)? Like...do you balance them WITHOUT the push-rod hooked up? Or, are they balanced in flying configuration, with the push-rods hooked up? Hints, pointers, and especially photos, would be greatly appreciated. Mike Welch MkIII Watch Cause Effect, a show about real people makce=text_watchcause' target='_new'>Learn more. > [b] -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171759#171759 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_counter_balance_rods__checkered_001_169.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_counter_balance_rods__checkered_002_113.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_counter_balance_rods__checkered_004_665.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:02 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank Dana Hague wrote: > > I'm adding an auxiliary tank to my UltraStar... I have a pretty good > idea of how I'll plumb it, but I'd like to collect some other opinions. > > My US has the stock setup with two 1.75 gallon tanks under my legs. > I'm at a bit of a loss why the valves (the ones that plug into the > tanks through a rubber bushing) have two outlets. The manual says to > cap one side of one tank's valve, connect the two tanks together, and > run the remaining outlet to the engine. When I got my plane, there > was no cap, the tanks were connected as per the manual, and both > outlets were connected together via a "Y" fitting, thence to the > engine. Other than replacing all the tubing, I left it the way it was > (but see below). > > I've considered moving the bulb primer to one leg of the "Y". This > would require closing the other tank valve when priming, but with both > valves open would give the fuel a path around the primer bulb in case > of blockage (such a blockage in a brand new primer bulb almost ended > my first flight before I made it around the pattern once). Thoughts? > > But on to the real reason for this post. The new 1.5 gallon (for a > total of 5 gallons) tank will be mounted, quick release, to the rear > of the seat (I'm actually mounting it to the seat back itself as I > don't want to do any welding on the cage). I'm also using a quick > disconnect connector in the fuel line so I can remove the tank if I > need to carry it somewhere to be filled, for example if I land out > somewhere and have to get fuel. The separate removable tank also > makes oil mixing easy. Since this tank will be above the other tanks, > I'll open the valve to drain it down when the others are half empty. > > The issue is plumbing. The obvious thought is to simply connect it > via a tee fitting into the fuel lines. However, I'm concerned that > once the aux tank is empty the fuel pump will start sucking air from > the aux tank instead of fuel from the lower tanks, which would be a > bad thing. :) The alternative, which seems the best approach, is to > connect the aux tank into a new fitting on top of one of the main > tanks... but I'm open to other thoughts and suggestions. I'm also > naturally concerned with getting any debris from the drilling out of > the tank (I'd rather not have to drain and remove it, etc.), and > drilling large holes in thin plastic is a PITA anyway, so my thought > is to drill the hole with a sharpened piece of tubing rather than a > conventional drill. > > -Dana > -- > Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. My neighbor acquired a Thorp T-18 in a trade a couple of years ago. It had a baggage compartment aux tank plumbed through a shutoff into a 'T' at the bottom of the main tank, which is between the instrument panel & the firewall. It almost quit on him when when the aux tank emptied while flying it home from the trade. In order to prevent it from sucking air, the aux tank valve had to be closed before the tank was completely empty. Bede BD-4 fliers have the same problem due to multiple fuel pickups in each wing tank. (Yes, that's the way the fuel system was designed.) If one pickup 'unports', it will suck air & cause fuel starvation. There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with this; most low wing factory planes require you to switch tanks as the selected tank nears the empty point to avoid sucking air from the empty tank. However, it does add work load & cushion crimp at every tank switching event. But as you fear, it's likely to cause engine stoppage if you forget to shut off the aux as it empties. That might be a much bigger deal in a Kolb with its lower inertia & the likelihood that you'll be flying closer to the ground than would be the case in a bigger factory plane. I'm struggling with the same decision on the RV-7 I'm building now. It'll be much easier to plumb the aux tanks directly to the fuel delivery line, but there's always the risk of engine stoppage when an aux tank runs dry. (Of course, the same thing is true with the 2 stock main tanks, also, & there are almost 5000 RVs flying with that system.) FWIW, Charlie ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:51 PM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! But it doesn't mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"),>> Hi, that is a strange statement. Is an "increase of 30% on the cruise without compromising the amazing short field performance", better? I would have said so. This is from a flight test of the new `Savannah VG` in the April `Microlight Flying, our major magazine. The Savannah is quite popular here. Around 30 flying. They are all metal with a very thick wing designed for short field performance. Previously they were fitted with a `slot` on the leading edge. This has been done away with in the `VG` variant and vortex generators have been fitted the full length of the wing in its place. In this case we are not talking about `Kolb quit` or any other name for a stall. The Savannah has always had good low speed handling characteristics and there is no mention in the article of landing speeds being affected by the VG`s. There is a mention of a `very` small increase in ground roll and thats it. It is the increase in cruise speed which has caught the observers eye. "The old Savannah was not exactly a sluggard with a cruise of 75-80 mph but this one, with the same old Jabiru up front was slipping along at 100mph at 2700rpm - an astonishing 30% improvement. Gaining 5mph can take masses of tinkering with an established design but here an apparently minor mod has changed it from Land Rover to Range Rover in a single bound` "The Savannah has already proved a popluar aircraft in its standard form but 3 `VG` kits have been sold and it wouldn`t surprise me if if Classic owners didn`t choose to replace the old wing with the new. At around 1000 it seems a snip for all that exttra performance." All this of course begs the question Do I want VG`s or even `do I need VG`s. As far as John H is concerned the answer to both questions is `No` and some others agree but I think there is little point in arguing about the effectiveness of VG`s. That is proved. They do just what it says on the tin. I hereby solemnly swear that I will not ever, ever, ever, write another word to the list about VG`s Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:17 PM PST US From: "Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank > My neighbor acquired a Thorp T-18 in a trade a couple of years ago. It > had a baggage compartment aux tank plumbed through a shutoff into a 'T' at > the bottom of the main tank, which is between the instrument panel & the > firewall. It almost quit on him when when the aux tank emptied while > flying it home from the trade. In order to prevent it from sucking air, > the aux tank valve had to be closed before the tank was completely empty. > Charlie Charlie/Dana: I built and flew an US and FS that both had aux tanks that gravity fed into the main tank(s). IIRC I plumbed them into the tanks and not into a T. Plastic tanks are easy to work with when adding additional fittings. I never pulled fuel from the tops, but from the bottoms of tanks, using the large rubber grommets and special outlet fittings that pushed into them. With approximately 1,500 hours on both aircraft, I never experienced any problem with the fuel fittings or with my systems. Take care, john h Labhart Field, KY ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:33 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron counterweights From: "JetPilot" Mike, Here is a good article on how to balance control surfaces. http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html Also attached are some pictures of the aileron counter balances on my plane, as well as a MK III classic. If you need more detailed pictures of how they are attached into the aileron tubes, let me know and I will take some. After reading some reports of minor flutter in the Rudder of some Kolbs, I also counter balanced the rudder in much the same way as ailerons. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171784#171784 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolbcounterbalance3_194.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolbcounterbalance2_166.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolbcounterbalance_139.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:05 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank From: "JetPilot" I put a 6 gallon Aux tank in my Kolb MK III to give me 16 gallons total fuel. I did not want to complicate the fuel system or run any risk of having my motor quit due to fuel mismanagement by myself ( Made it idiot proof in case I get distracted ). What I did was have the AUX tank feed into an electric Facett pump with an on - off valve. I fly until my main tank get empty enough to take the extra 6 gallons, at which ponit I open the valve and turn on the pump which fills up the stock mains on my MK III in flight. If I forget and leave it on and forget the valve, no harm done, it pumps until empty and then I hear the pump rattling as it starts to suck air when there is no more to pump into the mains. If I pump to early, it just over fills the mains and runs out the vent tube out to bottom of the plane, I lose some gas, but no harm done. Even a failure of any part of the aux fuel system, the fuel hose, pump, valve, etc will not result in engine failure. No matter what I do with this system, there is no way to screw it up to the point of making the engine quit. I added the aux tank and extra 6 gallons of fuel to my stock MK III fuel system with no modification to the cage or original fuel system. When I buy the new 18 gallon tank from TNK I will have 24 gallons of fuel as the AUX will work with the new tank the same way it works with the stock tanks. What I really like about this AUX tank is that I always leave it empty unless I am flying cross country, so for the vast majority of my local flights, only fill the mains with no weight penalty from carrying extra gas. Cost was less than 150 dollars for everything. I can post pictures and schematics for anyone that wants them. Mike I can post pictures and schematic if anyone is interested. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171785#171785 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:57 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aileron counterweights Mike just like on Large aircraft I would think, Un hook all linkage and make th e aileron balance on the hindgepoint Ellery in Maine do not archive In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:30:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com writes: Kolb guys, Do any of you guys have any insight on how I should make aileron counterweights? I'm at the point where I need to install them, now. My wings are completel y finished, and ready for fabric. I'd like to do the counterweights next, and my manua l doesn't address this subject, as I recall. Specifically, what is the main objective, when making the ailerons balanced (other than the obvious!!)? Like...do you balance them WITHOUT the push-rod hooke d up? Or, are they balanced in flying configuration, with the push-rods hooked u p? Hints, pointers, and especially photos, would be greatly appreciated. Mike Welch MkIII ____________________________________ Watch =9CCause Effect,=9D a show about real people makce=text_ watchcause' target='_new'>Learn more. (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol hom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:42 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: ceiling At 07:41 AM 3/22/2008, william sullivan wrote: > A couple of questions- Dana's mention of the Ercoupe got me thinking. > Whenever we used to do stalls in the Ercoupe, I remember having to put on > the carb heat to deter icing. With the incredible climb and descent rates > of the Kolbs, does anyone know why the 447 and similar engines don't need > carb heat? My understanding is that while icing is possible (and does occasionally happen), it's less likely for three reasons: First, the slide carburetors we use are less likely to ice up than the butterfly type used on conventional engines; the oil mixed with the gas makes ice less likely to adhere to the carburetor surfaces, and the nature of the 2-stroke induction means some mixture is blown back part way into the manifold / carburetor before the piston covers the inlet port, heating and/or dislodging any ice. This was some of the information I was given last year when I thought I had an icing problem, but it turned out to be a jetting problem (too rich for the hot humid weather I was flying in). That said, there _are_ outfits making electric carburetor heaters for Bing carburetors (basically a heated plate that sandwiches between the carb and manifold. -Dana -- Stupidity got us into this mess... why can't it get us out? ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:56 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank At 03:28 PM 3/22/2008, Charlie England wrote: >...But as you fear, it's likely to cause engine stoppage if you forget to >shut off the aux as it empties. That might be a much bigger deal in a Kolb >with its lower inertia & the likelihood that you'll be flying closer to >the ground than would be the case in a bigger factory plane... Of course it's less of an issue in a conventional plane, too, because the prop will continue to windmill, and the engine will restart as soon as fuel is restored. I don't recall how my T-Craft was plumbed, but there was no issue leaving the aux wing tank valve open even after it was fully drained into the main tank. But, come to think of it, with gravity feed all the way to the carburetor it wouldn't be an issue anyway. Sometimes it WAS an issue if it failed to start draining when the main tank was empty and the fuel was needed, but that's another story... -Dana -- If we wish to "restore" respect for the law, a good start would be to pass only laws that people will respect. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:31 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel system plumbing, aux tank At 05:24 PM 3/22/2008, Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft) wrote: >I built and flew an US and FS that both had aux tanks that gravity fed >into the main tank(s). IIRC I plumbed them into the tanks and not into a T. > >Plastic tanks are easy to work with when adding additional fittings. I >never pulled fuel from the tops, but from the bottoms of tanks, using the >large rubber grommets and special outlet fittings that pushed into them. By "I never pulled fuel from the tops" I presume you mean fittings in the bottom as opposed to the dip tube fittings about halfway up that is the US stock setup (I think)? I ordered the push in / rubber grommet fitting with the screen and valve for the aux tank, and I'll run it into the side of one of the main tanks wherever it's convenient. I'll also use a self sealing quick disconnect in the fuel line so I can remove the tank when necessary. -Dana -- If we wish to "restore" respect for the law, a good start would be to pass only laws that people will respect. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:00 PM PST US From: "Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft)" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank ( Made it idiot proof in case I get distracted ). What I did was have the AUX tank feed into an electric Facett pump with an on - off valve. I fly until my main tank get empty enough to take the extra 6 gallons, at which ponit I open the valve and turn on the pump which fills up the stock mains on my MK III in flight. > > If I forget and leave it on and forget the valve, no harm done, it pumps > until empty and then I hear the pump rattling as it starts to suck air > when there is no more to pump into the mains. > > > Mike Mike B: What do you do if the idiot forgets to turn on the vlave and start the pump before the mains are empty? If you put an operator in the cycle, in my opinion, it ain't idiot proof. No way I could hear my electric fuel pump rattling in flight, not unless the engine was shut down. I fly with 25 gal of fuel in one tank. If I run out of that, then I'm the idiot. ;-) john h mkIII Labhart Field, KY ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:34 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar Project Busy day today- decent weather, and everybody left me alone. The KXP wings are now fully mounted and aligned. The aileron control rods are cut and welded, and being painted tomorrow. I changed both landing gear legs, as they were mis-matched and both bent. Tomorrow- paint the rods, install and adjust. Tighten and maybe re-locate the fuel pump- the aileron control horn bumps or is really close when folded. Maybe fix the ASI static line, and a little glue on some loose windshield trim. Progress, anyway. Dana etc., the Ercoupes I flew - 3 or 4 different ones- all had the bubble canopy and rudder pedals. they were fairly new (in 1968) and had only minor differences. They cost $9700 back then, new. Lessons were $20 an hour- $14 for the plane (with gas) and $6 for the instructor. Bill Sullivan FS l Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:58 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar Project At 07:59 PM 3/22/2008, william sullivan wrote: > Busy day today- decent weather, and everybody left me alone. The KXP > wings are now fully mounted... How soon do you think until you're ready to fly it? > Dana etc., the Ercoupes I flew - 3 or 4 different ones- all had the > bubble canopy and rudder pedals. they were fairly new (in 1968) and had > only minor differences. They cost $9700 back then, new. Lessons were $20 > an hour- $14 for the plane (with gas) and $6 for the instructor. Ah, the good old days! :) When I learned to fly in 1976 the C-150 was $15 wet and the instructor $10. The only Ercoupe I ever flew (once) was an older (40's?) with no rudder pedals. This was back in the mid 80's I guess. Didn't care for it all that much, but I was in a "real men fly taildraggers" frame of mind... hmmm, come to think of it I guess I still am! :) -Dana -- Income tax: capital punishment. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:49 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: fuel system plumbing, aux tank At 07:46 PM 3/22/2008, Travis Brown (Kolb Aircraft) wrote: >What do you do if the idiot forgets to turn on the vlave and start the >pump before the mains are empty? > >If you put an operator in the cycle, in my opinion, it ain't idiot proof. Been there, done [something like] that... filled the main tank in the T-Craft, then the aux tank, forgetting to closed the valve. Soaked the whole front of the plane with avgas, then had to wait hours for it to dry, hoping nobody would walk by with a lit cigarette. Worst part was I was in a hurry, en route from NJ to Ohio, with sunset looming. -Dana do not archive this pointless anecdote... -- Income tax: capital punishment. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:36 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar Project Dana- The plane should be ready in a couple of weeks- weather and interruptions permitting. I still have to make a wheel dolly that I can use with the wings folded. I also should find and modify a boat trailer, even if other transport is available. We also have to take a couple of refresher courses. I am usually lucky where my neck is concerned,but I do manage random acts of pure stupidity, just for variety. I would rather depend on training than memory, and my reading of air maps has been long gone. do not archive Bill Sullivan FS l Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Flying with VGs From: "Possums" [quote="jb92563"]Possums, Love that landing movie....quote] So .......I'm trying to find out how you can add attachments to this part of the list "Read this topic online here" without affecting the "email" part of the list and forcing people to have to download something they don't choose to? Got any idea? or "How do you do it"? -------- Possum Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171827#171827 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:43 PM PST US From: Larry Bourne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flying with VGs Only way I know of is to publish it, then put the link in the email to the List. A regular attachment will open automatically with the message and cause grief to those on dial up. Not fair to 'em. Lar. Do not Archive. Possums wrote: > > [quote="jb92563"]Possums, > > Love that landing movie....quote] > > So .......I'm trying to find out how you can add attachments to this part of the list "Read this topic online here" without affecting the "email" part of the list and forcing people to have to download something they don't choose to? > Got any idea? or "How do you do it"? > > -------- > Possum > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171827#171827 > > > -- Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com www.gogittum.com/blog ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:38 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flying with VGs Possum, Just sign up for a free Google Gmail account and you will have all the space you need to up load photos, documents, videos and more. Then you can link it to any email you wish. Here is an example of a document I just did. http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d3jhg27_0fr7x2tcf On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Possums wrote: > > [quote="jb92563"]Possums, > > Love that landing movie....quote] > > So .......I'm trying to find out how you can add attachments to this > part of the list "Read this topic online here" without affecting the > "email" part of the list and forcing people to have to download > something they don't choose to? > Got any idea? or "How do you do it"? > > -------- > Possum > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171827#171827 > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:04 PM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! Roger/All, Exactly. It's merely a stall, why blame the aircraft? Dad was a cabinetmaker. He had a saying, "'It's a poor workman who blames his tools." Sorry guys, but if it quacks and smells like one.... Ed in JXN MkII/503 Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Hankins" Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 2:46 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! > > Blaming bent gear legs on the plane is like blaming one's slice on the > golf club or a bad serve on one's tennis racket. It is not a reflection > on the equipment, but the person using it. > > -------- > Roger in Oregon > 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171535#171535 > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:57 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Balancing act for ailerons Mike B., Rick, Ellery, & Mike & Jaz, Thanks a ton, guys, for your helpfu l tips. (But, seriously, did Jaz really help out much? Hmm?)Thanks especi ally to Mike B. for the Tony Bingelis article and Mike's Bigelow's counterb alance/aileronphotos, and to Rick G. for the methodical steps involved. I have plenty of useful information to build the counterbalances.....and wil l wait until the aileron is completely finished before "locking in" the fin al weight position. Muchas gracias, amigos. Just in case no one else as ks, Mike B., yes, I'd like to see that extra 6 gallon tank setup.Maybe in t he future, if the present 10 gallons (4+ hours plus reserve) I have isn't e nough, I may want to add an extra 3 hours of flying with the 6 gallon tank. Mike WelchMkIII PS Has anyone ever heard of "Tar Baby?" Building my pl ane reminds me of Br'er Rabbit and Tar Baby. I can't seem to touch one thing...without having to get stuck doing somethi ng else. And the young guys are saying "what the heck is a Tar Baby"!! Do Not Archive _________________________________________________________________ Watch =93Cause Effect,=94 a show about real people making a real difference . Learn more. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:31 PM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! Hi Pat, Despite all the good they do, I doubt the VG's in this case are responsible for the increased cruise speed. More likely is the removal of the leading-edge slot. In some cases, VG's can cause a slight decrease in cruise. Ed in JXN MkII/503 ----- Original Message ----- From: "pj.ladd" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fly the plane!! > > But it doesn't mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"),>> > > Hi, (Snip) There is a mention of a `very` small increase in ground roll and > thats it. It is the increase in cruise speed which has caught the > observers eye. > > "The old Savannah was not exactly a sluggard with a cruise of 75-80 mph > but this one, with the same old Jabiru up front was slipping along at > 100mph at 2700rpm - an astonishing 30% improvement. (Snip) > > Cheers > > Pat > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.