Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:48 AM - Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra (John Codd)
2. 03:54 AM - Re: Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley (pj.ladd)
3. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra (Denny Rowe)
4. 08:23 AM - Gas, and prop clearance (william sullivan)
5. 08:26 AM - Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra (JetPilot)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: Naked FireStar (Ralph B)
7. 08:37 AM - Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra (JetPilot)
8. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra (boyd)
9. 09:32 AM - Re: Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley (boyd)
10. 09:47 AM - Re: Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley (HShack@aol.com)
11. 09:58 AM - Re: Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley (boyd)
12. 10:29 AM - Re: Gas, and prop clearance (Jack B. Hart)
13. 10:49 AM - Re: Gas, and prop clearance (JetPilot)
14. 12:04 PM - The weather's lousy again (possums)
15. 01:52 PM - Paper indicators (william sullivan)
16. 03:43 PM - toe out on the main gear (Mike Welch)
17. 04:29 PM - Re: toe out on the main gear (planecrazzzy)
18. 05:19 PM - Re: Gas, and prop clearance (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
19. 05:19 PM - Re: toe out on the main gear (Russ Kinne)
20. 05:20 PM - Re: Gas, and prop clearance (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
21. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: toe out on the main gear (Mike Welch)
22. 05:44 PM - Re: toe out on the main gear (Mike Welch)
23. 05:50 PM - Re: toe out on the main gear (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
24. 08:03 PM - Re: The weather's lousy again (Wade Lawicki)
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| Subject: | Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra |
Hi Frank, here in the UK we all run Jabiru 2200's on our Mk3 Xtras, your
main clearance problem will be propellor to the flaps/torque tubes on
the wing, New Kolb supplied our engine mounts for the Jabiru equipped
Xtras, and you will also need the 2 1/2" prop shaft extension supplied
by Jabiru.
I also use the Prince P tip prop, a 62" x 41", these props are ideally
suited to the Jab in the Xtra, but don't forget that they have anhedral
and when loaded up in the climb they twist and reduce pitch to get a
better climb, I believe this moves the tips forward which would bring
the tips nearer to the flap/aileron torque tubes than a simple static
measurement would indicate, I would suggest a phone call to Donny at
Prince Propellors would be adviseable to see what movement forward (if
any) there is on this prop in the climb,
Rgds, John Codd, Mk111 Xtra, Jabiru 2200.
----- Original Message -----
From: gary aman
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra
Frank,
my mk-3C W2200 jabiru has more clearance than that.You may want to
contact Kolb as they had a mount for Jabiru at one time .I think
wing/flap clearance will be more of a concern than rear of fuselage.As
best I can recall I have almost a foot of fuselage clearance.High rpm
props make a lot of noise on a pusher,and my MK-3 is no exception.The
2200 is a sweet running engine.
G.Aman,MK-3C Jabiru 2200,298 hrs.
----- Original Message ----
From: Frankd <frankd@foundrynet.com>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 4:43:40 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra
Hi Guys,
This may not be a Kolb question per se, but you guys might know the
answer.
I am mounting a Jabiru 2200 on a Kolb Mark 111 extra with a Prince
Aircraft 63" prop. (P/N 419.877,5557)
The clearance at the tip of the prop away from the Fuselage body near
the tail tube is 2.5 inches.
At normal operating RPM's , what flex should I expect at the tips of
the prop? Do I have enough clearance from the aircraft body?
Also, is this a good engine/prop combo?
Appreciate any input.
Rgds
FrankD
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley |
To whoever it was wondering if they should go to MV may I say YES.
I made it last year via a drive from San Diego, Palm Springs, Las Vegas,
Bryce, Lake Mead. Monument Valley itself is spectacular, the camping
ground is convenient, the store keeps good supplies and the restaurant
will keep you full of tacos.
The talk around the camp ground in the evening alone was worth the
drive. I only got one flight in and that by the courtesy of the Cessna
driver whose name escapes me at the moment. Thanks again to him. He had
been working all day flying Navaho kids around the area, thus ensuring
the continued welcome of the Kolbers to the Navaho reservation. He was
pretty bushed but cheerfully added Wendy and I to his flight list. It
was spectacular and I would have loved to done it in a Kolb, but there
you go.
If you can, fly in. If you can`t drive. Its worth it.
Cheers
Pat
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra |
Thanks Ellery,
That is correct, I was refering to boom clearance, I have a lot more
than that to the trailing edge.
Denny rowe
----- Original Message -----
From: ElleryWeld@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra
I understand that Prince P-Tip Propeller is a good match for your
application However I think you are going to need more of an extension
on your prop to give you more room between the back of your Fuselage
Trailing edge of wings and your prop, some of the other guys on this
list was explaining they had less clearance than what you have but they
was talking about clearance between the prop tip and the Boom tube not
the back of there Fuselage Just trying to verify this info correctly
for you
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
In a message dated 3/29/2008 12:55:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
frankd@foundrynet.com writes:
Thanks for the reply's everyone.
The Prince Aircraft prop came with the engine when I got it. It is
listed in the Aircraft Spruce Catalogue and has unique drooping tips
built in that is designed to enhance performance.. Its a wood core with
glass finish and that is why I did not know about flex forward under
power.
Just to be clear, the clearance I measured is from the prop tip
forward to the fuselage cage. I have seen prop flex on Cessna's when in
power run-up but it's minimal. Since I don't have my wings attached
yet, I did not even think about clearance from the training edge..
It sounds like there is enough clearance even if the prop does flex
some, from your guys experience. I will continue as is.
On a related note, what is the ideal incidence of the engine thrust
line in relation to the wing bottom? Should it be the same incidence?
I got an engine mount from Titan aircraft to fit the Jabiru to the MkIII
Extra and would like to verify incidence before I bolt it all down
finally.
Now at the stage of spraying silver on all the fabric so aiming to
have it all ready for flight THIS year... thats as close as I will aim
for..
Good feedback.. Thanks
f
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Checked by AVG.
3/28/2008 10:58 AM
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| Subject: | Gas, and prop clearance |
Ellery- Do you run gas with alcohol in the Rotax 447? There was a lot of discussion
on the List, but I never got a good conclusion out of it. Does the mogas
sold at airports contain alcohol? Mine came from Long Island, N.Y., and he said
just use auto high test. I don't know about the alcohol down there, but I think
they have it. I don't know what you have in Maine.
I have been listening to the comments on prop clearance, so I checked my aileron
tube to prop by forcibly bending the prop toward the tube. the closest I
got was about 3/4". Would you suggest a piece of cardboard taped to the tube
and a full power run up?
Bill Sullivan
FS/KX-447
Windsor Locks, Ct.
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| Subject: | Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra |
Frank,
It does seem that you are talking about prop clearance from the prop to the Fuselage
structure forward of it, not clearance to the boom. If that is the case,
2 1/2 inches is not enough. Even though the prop blades to do not bend much
in flight ( Someone quoted 1 inch ) which sounds reasonable.. The engine is
mounted on Rubber mounts, and it is possible for the engine to twist, and move
around a bit in its mounts. This small but normal movement of the engine will
translate to a much larger movement at the prop tips. Combine the bit of
prop twist you get forward, with the engine movement, and its very possible that
the prop could strike the structure that is only 2 1/2 inches forward.
I have a 4 inch spacer between my Rotax 912-s and prop. If the prop is to close
to the wing / fuse, you will get more noise, more beating on the fabric from
the prop. If the prop does hit something forward of it, its a pretty good bet
that it will come apart and cause not only an engine out, but could rip the
engine from its mounts, making the aircraft uncontrollable. This is a pretty
serious safety item, which is why I used over 2 inches from my boom, and a 4 inch
spacer to give me lots of room between the prop and the wings.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Naked FireStar |
knowvne(at)aol.com wrote:
> Damn THAT UV is strong... hahaha 8-)
Now I know why I live up here in the north country [Laughing]
do not archive
Ralph
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar
N91493 E-AB
21 years flying it
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| Subject: | Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra |
[quote="Steve Boetto"]
Prop flex forward in excess of an inch. Other props flex less. On a Kolb with
an upswept boom this tends to increase clearance, However, it can dramatically
decrease clearance to the back of the wing.
[quote]
Steve
Given a 70 inch prop, and that I have more than 6 inches of clearance between my
prop and wings, I consider 1 inch of flex to be minimal :) I think the engine
twisting in is rubber mounts has more potential to change clearances than
flexing of the prop. The two strokes start pretty smooth, but the 912's have
a lot of travel in the rubber mounts, and can move around quite a bit on start.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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| Subject: | Re: Prop clearence on Kolb Mark 111 extra |
Doesn't a prop extension seem like a good idea, in this case, knowledgable
Kolb guys?
Mike Welch
MkIII
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YES a prop extension helped a bit with performance (3mh) , less noise, and
less worry.
Boyd
MkIII c
912ul 3 inch ext, on warp prop.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley |
Sooooo what are you saying, is it by invitation only?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YES,,, it was and still remains an open invitation to All. read my words
from my last post.
quote
My thoughts were that as a "KOLB FLY IN" with an invitation to ALL,
Un quote.
And It was not limited to ALL KOLBS,,,, All,,,,,,,, everyone,,,,,, you
can come be car, truck, motorcycle, buss, BAMH, planes( of all sorts),
trains, peddel bike, skateboard, foot, ford, chevy, VW, Toyota, datsun,
Volvo, keds, converse, nike, flip flops,,,, etc, golly if you had
come barefoot we would have welcomed you.
I hope you are having as much fun with this as I am,,,,, I am certainly
not trying to create a problem here. And hope you can hear the laughter in
my voice by the words I have chosen...
Do not archive,
Boyd
Ps what is a Datsun,,, and where did that come from?
Pps thanks for the photos. And if dave gets the skeeter ready, are you
flying in the 175?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley |
So, what are the dates?
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 3/30/2008 12:32:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
by0ung@brigham.net writes:
My thoughts were that as a =9CKOLB FLY IN=9D with an invitation
to ALL
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| Subject: | Kolb Fly-In at Monument Valley |
So, what are the dates?
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
In a message dated 3/30/2008 12:32:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
by0ung@brigham.net writes:
My thoughts were that as a "KOLB FLY IN" with an invitation to ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
May 15th through 18th 2008... seems to me that it has been the first
weekend after mothers day in the US. I know mothers day in UK is
different.
Boyd
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, and prop clearance |
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
.......................
I have been listening to the comments on prop clearance, so I checked my aileron
tube to prop by forcibly bending the prop toward the tube. the closest I
got was about 3/4". Would you suggest a piece of cardboard taped to the tube and
a full power run up?
.......................
Bill,
Cardboard is a little harsh. You might want to try:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly83.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, and prop clearance |
Testing is a good idea, although I would not just do a full power run up, I would
also do the test in flight. You are likely to get more movement in Taxi and
flight then just on a full power run up. Gyroscopic forces, Turbulence, etc.
can all move the engine and prop more than just a run up.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | The weather's lousy again |
But it was nice yesterday - went to the race track.
You might want to turn the volume down.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2287232/7182318
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| Subject: | Paper indicators |
Thanks, Jack. I knew I'd seen them somewhere.
do not archive
Bill Sullivan
FS/KX
Windsor Locks, Ct.
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| Subject: | toe out on the main gear |
Kolbers,
I am resetting the "toe out" on my new Handy Dandy Steel Gear Legs. Checking
my
old MkIII instruction book states to align them straight inline with the fuselage
centerline, or slightly toe out.
"Slightly toe out" seems a lot vague to me. Does anyone have actual toe setting
details, or the best recommended "toe out setting (in degrees), for a tail
dragger, in general?
Here is what I presently have:
With an 8 foot straight edge, lined up parallel with the tire, I have about
1.75 inches toe out, compared to straight inline with the centerline.
My calculations are.....in 8 feet my "toe out" measures 1.75"
my 8 foot straightedge = 96 inches (the radius)
circumference = 3.14 x diameter
circumference = 3.14 x 96 x 2
circumference = 602.88" (of an 8' radius
circle)
A degree = 1/360 of a circle, or in my case; 602.88" / 360 degrees = 1.68
inches/degree
So, it would appear I have very close to 1 degree toe out, possibly 1.1 degree
toe out.
Does this sound about right? Any opinions???
Mike Welch
MkIII on steel gear legs
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: toe out on the main gear |
I know NOTHING about this...
But I've always known "Toe - in ".....
Just like putting a bolt "down or back"....
Seems like if the axle nut should come off ...
"Toe - out" would make the wheel fly off....
"toe - in" would force it tighter on the axle....
My Firestar has "Toe-in"... So does the trailer I made to haul it...
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN... ( Jaz "ALSO" has Toe-in )
.
.
.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, and prop clearance |
I dont run alcohol in my gas I save that for after dark when I am done
flying (Crown Royal) im not sure is there is any in the fuel in maine I just
always run Super from my Local store and sometimes AVGas from an airport if they
didn't have and Mogas avaliable there
DO YOU HAVE A BIG 2 3/4" thick aluminum space between your prop shaft and
your prop? Are you running a IVO Prop?
tie the tail down good and do a runup on the engine and you should be able
to see how close the prop is running to your aileron Torq Tubes from the side
view way out by the wing tip Be careful
Ellery
In a message dated 3/30/2008 10:24:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
williamtsullivan@att.net writes:
Ellery- Do you run gas with alcohol in the Rotax 447? There was a lot of
discussion on the List, but I never got a good conclusion out of it. Does the
mogas sold at airports contain alcohol? Mine came from Long Island, N.Y., and
he said just use auto high test. I don't know about the alcohol down there,
but I think they have it. I don't know what you have in Maine.
I have been listening to the comments on prop clearance, so I checked my
aileron tube to prop by forcibly bending the prop toward the tube. the closest
I got was about 3/4". Would you suggest a piece of cardboard taped to the
tube and a full power run up?
Bill Sullivan
FS/KX-447
Windsor Locks, Ct.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: toe out on the main gear |
Mike
FWIW 1.75" sounds like a lot!
On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:40 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Kolbers,
>
> I am resetting the "toe out" on my new Handy Dandy Steel Gear
> Legs. Checking my
> old MkIII instruction book states to align them straight inline
> with the fuselage centerline, or slightly toe out.
>
> "Slightly toe out" seems a lot vague to me. Does anyone have
> actual toe setting details, or the best recommended "toe out
> setting (in degrees), for a tail dragger, in general?
>
> Here is what I presently have:
>
> With an 8 foot straight edge, lined up parallel with the tire, I
> have about 1.75 inches toe out, compared to straight inline with
> the centerline.
>
> My calculations are.....in 8 feet my "toe out" measures 1.75"
> my 8 foot straightedge = 96
> inches (the radius)
> circumference = 3.14 x diameter
> circumference = 3.14 x 96 x 2
> circumference = 602.88" (of an
> 8' radius circle)
>
> A degree = 1/360 of a circle, or in my case; 602.88" / 360
> degrees = 1.68 inches/degree
>
> So, it would appear I have very close to 1 degree toe out,
> possibly 1.1 degree toe out.
>
> Does this sound about right? Any opinions???
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII on steel gear legs
>
> ">No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Gas, and prop clearance |
oops sorry I forgot the Do Not Archive on that last message
Ellery
Do not archive
In a message dated 3/30/2008 10:24:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
williamtsullivan@att.net writes:
Ellery- Do you run gas with alcohol in the Rotax 447? There was a lot of
discussion on the List, but I never got a good conclusion out of it. Does the
mogas sold at airports contain alcohol? Mine came from Long Island, N.Y., and
he said just use auto high test. I don't know about the alcohol down there,
but I think they have it. I don't know what you have in Maine.
I have been listening to the comments on prop clearance, so I checked my
aileron tube to prop by forcibly bending the prop toward the tube. the closest
I got was about 3/4". Would you suggest a piece of cardboard taped to the
tube and a full power run up?
Bill Sullivan
FS/KX-447
Windsor Locks, Ct.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: toe out on the main gear |
> My Firestar has "Toe-in"... So does the trailer I made to haul it...
>
> Gotta Fly...
> Mike & "Jaz" in MN... ( Jaz "ALSO" has Toe-in )
> Do Not Archive
Mike & "Jaz",
You Firestar is supposed to have a tiny bit of "toe out", not "toe in".
Taildragger aircraft are set up with a slight amount of toe out, because if you
land on only one wheel (crosswind landing, or whatever), it will have the tendency
to drive away
from the centerline, plopping you down onto the other wheel, which is what you
want. A "toe in"
wheel would want to drive toward the raised wheel, worsening the one-wheel condition.
I thought Jaz was afflicted with "toe jam", not "toe in". Might be my error,
though. (PS, don't
tell him I said so. I understand he is sensitive about these matters).
Mike Welch
MkIII, no toe jam football here!
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Message 22
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| Subject: | toe out on the main gear |
>Mike
>FWIW 1.75" sounds like a lot!
>Russ
Russ,
Are you sure you have an accurate picture of my situation?
Picture this. There is a string perfectly parallel to the centerline of the
airplane, but 44" away from the centerline.
This parallel string runs just barely along side of the outside edge of the wheel
(either one).
Now, if you place an 8 foot long straight-edge just touching that string, next
to the wheel. At the far end of the
straight-edge, set it to 1.75" away from the string. This creates a 1 degree angle,
"toe out".
I know it sounds as though it may be excessive, but without the straight-edge,
you almost can't see that the wheel isn't parallel with the string. 1 degree
is really hard to tell that is has any "toe out". You need the straight-edge
to
even know.
Mike Welch
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: toe out on the main gear |
what you have there will work just fine, you dont want any toe in on a tail
dragger as it will make things very interesting for others to watch at fast
speeds with the mains still on the Pavement
personally I like mine Very straight the tires wear more even
Ellery in Maine
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In a message dated 3/30/2008 5:44:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
airspeedx3@yahoo.com writes:
Kolbers,
I am resetting the "toe out" on my new Handy Dandy Steel Gear Legs.
Checking my
old MkIII instruction book states to align them straight inline with the
fuselage centerline, or slightly toe out.
"Slightly toe out" seems a lot vague to me. Does anyone have actual toe
setting details, or the best recommended "toe out setting (in degrees), for a
tail dragger, in general?
Here is what I presently have:
With an 8 foot straight edge, lined up parallel with the tire, I have
about 1.75 inches toe out, compared to straight inline with the centerline.
My calculations are.....in 8 feet my "toe out" measures 1.75"
my 8 foot straightedge = 96 inches (the
radius)
circumference = 3.14 x diameter
circumference = 3.14 x 96 x 2
circumference = 602.88" (of an 8'
radius circle)
A degree = 1/360 of a circle, or in my case; 602.88" / 360 degrees = 1.68
inches/degree
So, it would appear I have very close to 1 degree toe out, possibly 1.1
degree toe out.
Does this sound about right? Any opinions???
Mike Welch
MkIII on steel gear legs
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| Subject: | Re: The weather's lousy again |
Possum,
Ive never heard the play by play of my life like that before!!!
But now I have 4 planes and a big SMILE : )
Fly Safe,
Wade
--------
Fly Safe! Wade
Nashville Tn.
FS 2
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