Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Gear Legs (Cat36Fly@aol.com)
2. 09:20 AM - Re: Gear Legs (Mike Welch)
3. 11:03 AM - Re: Gear Legs (Larry Cottrell)
4. 11:56 AM - Gear legs, and wing incidences (Mike Welch)
5. 12:01 PM - Re: Gear Legs (robert bean)
6. 12:23 PM - gear legs (robert bean)
7. 12:39 PM - Re: Gear Legs (Larry Cottrell)
8. 04:00 PM - Re: marvel oil (Ron)
9. 05:05 PM - q (Russ Kinne)
10. 05:25 PM - Re: q (possums)
11. 05:41 PM - Re: q (planecrazzzy)
12. 05:48 PM - Re: q (Dana Hague)
13. 05:52 PM - FireFly flight instructions??? (Don G)
14. 05:52 PM - Re: Gear Legs (thumb)
15. 05:58 PM - Re: q (John Hauck)
16. 06:35 PM - Re: q (robert bean)
17. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: q (possums)
18. 07:39 PM - Re: Dead Stick and other Videos (N111KX (Kip))
19. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: Dead Stick and other Videos (possums)
Message 1
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General Question to all;
Have A MkIII X with the aluminum gear legs. On occasion the plane wants to
nose over, especially when loaded with a couple of fairly big guys (175 +200).
I know there were some problems like this when the MKIIIx came out but I
haven't heard about any lately. Is this do to the new steel gear legs that has
moved the wheels forward. I am considering installing them but would like to
get some feed back on the pro's and con's of the new legs.
Thanks
Larry Tasker
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Larry,
I'm not sure what you've read recently (last three months), but the subject
of steel gear legs has been discussed extensively. I decided to make my own
steel gear legs, like a few others have done, and one of them (John Bickham) was
kind enough to supply me with sizes, measurements, drawings, pictures, etc.
I had enough useful information to be able to tackle the job of making my own,
fairly easily.
Brian, at TNK tech support, was VERY helpful in informing me of all the ramifications
of the gear leg changes. He gave me some the background information,
plus made some measurements for me (of the new yellow Xtra's wings, hor. stab.,
etc.)
The result: I could not be happier! My MkIII now sits up almost 6" taller
at the fuselage. The wheels sit about 3" to 4" further forward, and maybe 12"
wider overall stance (not exactly sure about the stance, it's just a guess,
because I didn't actually measure the old stance---I'm just going by what it looks
like)
In MY opinion, if you made the change to the steel legs, I believe you'd wonder
why you had not done it a lot earlier. The wheels will sit a few inches
further forward, a little wider stance, and best of all...taller.
The New Kolb sells the steel legs, as I am sure you are already aware. The
factory legs will significantly alleviate the ailments you mentioned, no doubt.
But, if for some reason, you want the wheels to be even more forward than
the factory's legs, then you could make your own, as I did.
If you want the wheels to be even more than 3"-4", let me know. I can tell
you how to fix it so that if you make your own, you can do that.
Whether you go with the factory legs, or go to the trouble of making your own,
I'm certain you will like the improvement!! But, realize there a couple of
minor modifications you'll also need to include in your project.
First of all, when adding the longer steel legs, your plane's wings will have
too high of a "rake", in the taxi position. In other words, there's too much
incidence in the wing's mounting angle. The high angle works for the shorter
aluminum legs, but if you go to the taller steel legs, you'll need to drill
new holes on the wing's mounting tabs, to take some of the incidence out of the
angle. (For more details, contact me off-list).
Secondly, by adjusting the main wing's incidence, this will cause the angle
of the horizontal stabilizers to be off, too. For the aluminum legs, the front
edge of the hor. stab's are mounted quite high at their front mounting spot
on the boom tube. If you go to steel legs, that front mounting height has to
be lowered a couple of inches, or so. The enclosed attachment is something I
put together from some nice gents who were kind enough to make some measurements
for me. Again, for more information, contact me off-list...I can help decipher
it for you).
I hope this information is a little helpful. I've also enclosed a picture
of my steel legs installed. Although I do NOT have an Xtra, you get the idea
of what I've built. You may note that I haven't adjusted the wing's incidence,
yet.
For those that care, I'm almost finished with my fiberglass droop tips. More
on that later.
Larry, like I said, if you decide you absolutely just have to build your own
steel legs, rather than buy them, I have a compendium of information, to help
make the process painless.
Mike Welch
Kolb MkIII CX
Cat36Fly@aol.com wrote:
General Question to all;
Have A MkIII X with the aluminum gear legs. On occasion the plane wants to nose
over, especially when loaded with a couple of fairly big guys (175 +200). I
know there were some problems like this when the MKIIIx came out but I haven't
heard about any lately. Is this do to the new steel gear legs that has moved
the wheels forward. I am considering installing them but would like to get some
feed back on the pro's and con's of the new legs.
Thanks
Larry Tasker
---------------------------------
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Food.
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Larry,
I'm not sure what you've read recently (last three months), but the
subject of steel gear legs has been discussed extensively. I decided to
make my own steel gear legs, like a few others have done, and one of
them (John Bickham) was kind enough to supply me with sizes,
measurements, drawings, pictures, etc. I had enough useful information
to be able to tackle the job of making my own, fairly easily.
Mike,
I have been wanting the steel legs for some time. I had thought
last year that I had a source for the steel legs, but it didn't pan out,
and TNK hadn't offered theirs at the time. Terry Davis had a extra set
that he kindly let me have at a very reasonable price. I do like them a
lot. The weakest part of the old Kolb design was the legs. Due to the
angle forward that they set, if something goes wrong then that leg stabs
into the ground causing substantial problems. However I understand why
it was designed that way, but I would prefer to take my chances with
sturdier legs.
I question that you would need to change the wing incidence
However, when the plane is up on its gear the wing incidence is the same
whether the legs are long or short. In the two flights that I have made
with mine since my last completion, I can find no difference at all in
any of the flight charactistics.
Thanks for the offer
Larry C
Message 4
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| Subject: | Gear legs, and wing incidences |
Larry,
Regarding the wing's incidence with steel legs, yes, you are probably correct,
when changing the legs on the Firestar.
I think what I may be confusing is my conversation with Brian, @ TNK tech support,
when he explained to me that when they were doing the flight testing on
the newly invented Xtra, that they found they had to lower the incidence on
the flying surfaces (front and back) due to the wedge shaped nose, and its' tendency
to "plow" into the air, causing a nosedown pressure. IIRC, tho, it seemed
as though this also tied in with the steel leg mods, too.
Whatever the other Larry decides to do regarding his new gear legs, he should
run it past Brian, for sure.
Thanks for the correction.
Mike Welch
---------------------------------
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Message 5
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Larry, my $.02 worth on Mike's behalf;
The incidence change has more to do with airflow change than longer
legs.
Since he has reconfigured the nose ala Xtra there is more downthrust
forward of the CG.
I believe the factory Xtra also has the different incidence. I am
going to give it a try on my
modified MkIII too even though it doesn't have as wide a nose as the
Xtra.
The stock MkIII nose bowl, having a large radius front enables the
air to easily flow
to a lower pressure area- a very good design.
My plane, although modestly powered, exhibits an uncomfortable and
nearly indescribable
sensation over 70 MPH. You can feel a sort of struggling oscillation
going on that makes you
want to slow back down. At 65 no problem.
I attribute this to the pointy nose and very wide, transitioning to
nearly flat, windshield
creating a lot of downthrust (that doesn't occur with a stock nose
and windshield)
Just my opinion but when I do lower those leading edges I'll give a
report on what happened.
BB
On 4, May 2008, at 1:59 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
>
> Larry,
>
> I'm not sure what you've read recently (last three months), but
> the subject of steel gear legs has been discussed extensively. I
> decided to make my own steel gear legs, like a few others have
> done, and one of them (John Bickham) was kind enough to supply me
> with sizes, measurements, drawings, pictures, etc. I had enough
> useful information to be able to tackle the job of making my own,
> fairly easily.
>
>
> Mike,
> I have been wanting the steel legs for some time. I had thought
> last year that I had a source for the steel legs, but it didn't pan
> out, and TNK hadn't offered theirs at the time. Terry Davis had a
> extra set that he kindly let me have at a very reasonable price. I
> do like them a lot. The weakest part of the old Kolb design was the
> legs. Due to the angle forward that they set, if something goes
> wrong then that leg stabs into the ground causing substantial
> problems. However I understand why it was designed that way, but I
> would prefer to take my chances with sturdier legs.
>
> I question that you would need to change the wing incidence
> However, when the plane is up on its gear the wing incidence is the
> same whether the legs are long or short. In the two flights that I
> have made with mine since my last completion, I can find no
> difference at all in any of the flight charactistics.
> Thanks for the offer
> Larry C
>
>
Message 6
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for comparison:
a locally based MkIII (with steel factory legs)
DSCN1166.JPG
my duck-billed creation:
welded steel tube windshield posts
more foot room on the rudder pedals.
It all comes apart with 10-32 screws
DSCN1158.JPG copy
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 7
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----- Original Message -----
From: robert bean
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Gear Legs
Larry, my $.02 worth on Mike's behalf;
The incidence change has more to do with airflow change than longer
legs.
Since he has reconfigured the nose ala Xtra there is more downthrust
forward of the CG.
I believe the factory Xtra also has the different incidence. I am
going to give it a try on my
modified MkIII too even though it doesn't have as wide a nose as the
Xtra.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Oops, I guess I didn't read far enough on Mikes email, I thought he
was replying to me and my Firestar. Sorry, when I saw Larry in the
address, I jumped to an incorrect conclusion.
Larry C
do not archive
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I would not worry about any wash down of oil by ethanol. Ethanol is a very poor
solvent when it comes to Petroleum based oils. Gasoline is a much more effective
solvent for washing the oil off. I have already tested that and found that
its very hard to remove Petro oil with ethanol, almost on par with trying to
remove the oil with water, but very easy to do with gasoline. I suspect that the
only reason E-85 washed the oil off at all was because of the 15% gasoline
in it.
Ron (now in NC)
Is there any Kolb active group in NC, today would have been a good day to visit.
============================
---- tc1917 <tc1917@hughes.net> wrote:
============
was wondering, with the advent of the alky in our gas of late, could we
ofset the cylinder 'wash-down' of oil from alcohol by adding marvel oil to
our gas. I know it says not to put additives into our gas but it might help
a little. what do all you experts think? Ted Cowan, Alabama Slingshot 912
UL
--
kugelair.com
Message 9
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List
New subject, and no rush about getting answers. I spect many are
readying for MV trips.
But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light? I've done a lot
of low-altitude, low speed flying (mostly swordfish spotting and
whale research) and have relied fairly heavily on having a stall-
warning alarm. At least I think I have; after hundreds of hours it's
all automatic by now. Have been accused of wearing out the stall-
warning horn; but that's not (quite) true.
However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall warning
when I start flying a Kolb.
Opinions?
Russ Kinne
do not archive
Message 10
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At 07:59 PM 5/4/2008, you wrote:
>
>List
>New subject, and no rush about getting answers. I spect many are
>readying for MV trips.
>But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light? I've done a lot
>of low-altitude, low speed flying (mostly swordfish spotting and
>whale research) and have relied fairly heavily on having a stall-
>warning alarm. At least I think I have; after hundreds of hours it's
>all automatic by now. Have been accused of wearing out the stall-
>warning horn; but that's not (quite) true.
>However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall warning
>when I start flying a Kolb.
>Opinions?
>Russ Kinne
>do not archive
I don't know anyone that has one on a Kolb.
I don't think you are going to need one, you can feel the stall coming and
it (or mine) just mushes and tries to keep flying.
Here's flying right on the edge of a stall - 25mph.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8643180947591432536&hl=en
I you want a good clean break, you pretty much have to yank the nose up.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1724203084033037294&hl=en
Message 11
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Hey Possum,
That was odd watching the stall where you pulled the stick back
to make it stall more..... I noticed you never had to really push the stick
forward to recover....
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181115#181115
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At 07:59 PM 5/4/2008, Russ Kinne wrote:
>However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall warning
>when I start flying a Kolb.
>Opinions?
Learned to fly in 150's that had stall horns, never had one in my T-Craft,
or the Quick I flew for awhile, or my US... and never missed it. If you
practice stalls, know your plane, and know that an imminent stall feels
like, you won't need a horn.
-Dana
--
Why are there Interstate highways in Hawaii?
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| Subject: | FireFly flight instructions??? |
Gents, I was asked awhile back to write down flight instructions for the Firefly
I built sometime back for the fella who bought it from its current owners. Upon
reflection, and remembering how many questions I had in my own mind about
flying a Kolb before I was helped out by a friendly Kolb owner, I thought I would
post the doc here, simply for new prospective owners. Now I am sure some with
more journalistic talent than I, and better pilots than I, might want to add
their own comments...go ahead. I am not the first word or the last on this
subject. This is simply for the archives.
Kolb FireFly SN098 Flight instructions (R447 power)
Starting:
Set Wheel chocks
Set Throttle to Idle
Turn on electric fuel pump and wait for 10 seconds
Turn on ign switch
Pull primer/enrichener lever (over left side seat)
Place left foot on tirePull recoil.
Hold plane and manually caress throttle up until engine smoothes out. Close enrichener
lever/circuit.
When engine seems warmed up enough to lower throttlePull chocksjump in..Strap inand
taxi. Turn off electric fuel pump. (personal pref)
Take off:
When aligned on runwaygently ease throttle up to max as ground speed increases.
DO NOT increase throttle to fast, or due to high thrustlinecraft will nose over
.
This will simply have to come by experience as airspeed indicator wont be working
yet.
You dont want to have too little groundspeed that the elevators are not effective
enough to hold the nose up or the tail down.
In the first stages of feeling this out, You will find that if enough speed is
attained to raise the tail ,then lower it, (tail control I call it) you will
have enough elevator to keep it down at full throttle. IF you cannot lower the
tail after bringing it up, you are on the edgewait for groundspeed to pick up
more or lower throttle if the nose is going overso if you can bring the tail
up, and then lower ityou can be at full throttle. This all happen very quicklyand
will become a fluid practice after a few tries. I would estimate from idle
to full throttle will be 5 or 6 secondswheels off will be aprox 3 or 4 seconds
later..maybe 5 if heavy
My technique isSet flaperons to then increasing throttle and groundspeed evenly
until I can raise the tailthen full throttle and lower tail back to ground or
slightly above.let it fly off.
Airspeed will be working by now, and after breaking ground hold airspeed to 55
-60 mph and climb.make sure rpms are at or above 6000if much below, say 5800abort
takeoff and see why engine is not coming up to speed. (fuelProp etc..) I usually
have flaperons back to neutral by pattern altitude.
If angle of climb is to great for your tastethen let speed go to 65 or 70(grin)
After good familiarity with aircraftclimbouts can be accomplished at 45 to 50
mph indicated easilybut, the angle of attack is so steep, you will be accused
of showing off or flying recklessly if you do this at fly-ins or air shows Unless
of courseeveryone there is a Kolb driver..then no one will think a moment
about it!
For methese speeds worked well (your mileage may vary)
Climb out = 55/60 indicated
Cruise = 70/75this greatly influence by weight but engine likes 56 to 5800 rpms.
Max speed..85/90 mph at 6500 rpms .cautionwhen operating here, or anywhere
above 6200 rpms..fuel goes thru engine at an alarming rate. My estimate
is 10 /12 gph.
Approach =60
Stall = 30
LANDING:
As with any very light weight craft, 098 will loose airspeed very quickly when
power is removed. For this reason, Until you get alot of experience in it, Landing
should be flown with some power at all times, until the moment of touchdown.
For your first few landings:
Fly the pattern at 601/2 flaperons on base leg, (Notice pitch effect!!)!.maintain
60 on finaland even over the numbers,, then at 10 to 15 feet, slowly lower
throttle and altitude, (throttle can be left at 3000 rpms and it will come down
)
When wheel touchcut power.
This would be best accomplished on a long runway, as to see how fast airspeed goes
away at lower throttle setting.
If you get in troublethe FireFly will Fly away very quickly and resume a climb
with full power .
It is very easy to reverse Vertical speed with power and attitudedont force a bad
landing
There is nothing in the air that will bend a Kolband she loves to flyso if the
cross wind has you askewor for whatever reason you dont think it is gonna be a
pretty landinghit the gas and fly awayjust remember when you apply throttle quicklythere
will be a strong pitching moment of the nose down and the tail up..(that
high thrustline)..so have a little backpressure on the stick as you push
the throttle forwardand be ready for it.
Also remember, these numbers and speeds quoted above are for Kolb FireFly #098
Other single seat Kolbs will no doubt have slightly different numbers.
My last word of advice, if you are a pilot, and have basic piloting skillsthen
DO NOT try and get the feel of the airplane by taxing it around with the tail
up and all that jazzyou probably will never get to enjoy flying it if you do,
just the joy of repairing it. All you need to know about an airplanes ground handling
is which pedal makes it go which way, and how to hold the upwind wing
down in a crosswind.. You get the Feel for an aircraft in the air. If , after
you have taken off for the first timeyou are intimidated about landing itthen
go back to altitude and play with itstall ittake steep turns. Fool around with
slow flight and watch the airspeed and Vertical Speed and get the feel of
the ailerons at low speedsand the flaperon settingscheck the feel of the stick///its
different with flaperons deployed than withoutand has different effectiveness
Then..pick a long runway and FLY the aircraft down to 10 ft or less of altitude
at an airspeed you already know works, and slowly remove the power and let it
come downas soon as the wheels touch.. cut the power and if you have timego and
take off again and do this again. If you concentrate to hard on getting a flare
the craft will likely end up ceaseing to fly to high and plop down the last
few feet due to lack or inertia. This is how the gear get bent. A lot of typical
GA pilots do this in a Kolb, they stop flying the plane and pull the stick
back and just freeze, waiting for it to settle. Dont do this..Fly it all the
way to touchdown.
Remember, as I said, there is nothing in the Air that will Bend an aircraft, but
just about everything on the ground will. So I have adopted this strategy for
over 30 years of flying, when an airplane is movingkeep its time on the ground
at an absolute minimum. This is when it is most vulnerable to damage.
I dont claim to have never bent an aircraft..in fact I have bent severalI guess
thats how I know this rule works the best.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181119#181119
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This is for Mike Welch,sorry guys I don't have his e-mail. Mike
would you send me pictures on how you did your wheel pants off list. My
e-mail is bill_joe@bellsouth.net Thanks
Bill Futrell
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Gear Legs
Larry,
I'm not sure what you've read recently (last three months), but the
subject of steel gear legs has been discussed extensively. I decided to
make my own steel gear legs, like a few others have done, and one of
them (John Bickham) was kind enough to supply me with sizes,
measurements, drawings, pictures, etc. I had enough useful information
to be able to tackle the job of making my own, fairly easily.
Brian, at TNK tech support, was VERY helpful in informing me of all
the ramifications of the gear leg changes. He gave me some the
background information, plus made some measurements for me (of the new
yellow Xtra's wings, hor. stab., etc.)
The result: I could not be happier! My MkIII now sits up almost 6"
taller at the fuselage. The wheels sit about 3" to 4" further forward,
and maybe 12" wider overall stance (not exactly sure about the stance,
it's just a guess, because I didn't actually measure the old
stance---I'm just going by what it looks like)
In MY opinion, if you made the change to the steel legs, I believe
you'd wonder why you had not done it a lot earlier. The wheels will sit
a few inches further forward, a little wider stance, and best of
all...taller.
The New Kolb sells the steel legs, as I am sure you are already
aware. The factory legs will significantly alleviate the ailments you
mentioned, no doubt. But, if for some reason, you want the wheels to be
even more forward than the factory's legs, then you could make your own,
as I did.
If you want the wheels to be even more than 3"-4", let me know. I
can tell you how to fix it so that if you make your own, you can do
that.
Whether you go with the factory legs, or go to the trouble of making
your own, I'm certain you will like the improvement!! But, realize
there a couple of minor modifications you'll also need to include in
your project.
First of all, when adding the longer steel legs, your plane's wings
will have too high of a "rake", in the taxi position. In other words,
there's too much incidence in the wing's mounting angle. The high angle
works for the shorter aluminum legs, but if you go to the taller steel
legs, you'll need to drill new holes on the wing's mounting tabs, to
take some of the incidence out of the angle. (For more details, contact
me off-list).
Secondly, by adjusting the main wing's incidence, this will cause
the angle of the horizontal stabilizers to be off, too. For the
aluminum legs, the front edge of the hor. stab's are mounted quite high
at their front mounting spot on the boom tube. If you go to steel legs,
that front mounting height has to be lowered a couple of inches, or so.
The enclosed attachment is something I put together from some nice gents
who were kind enough to make some measurements for me. Again, for more
information, contact me off-list...I can help decipher it for you).
I hope this information is a little helpful. I've also enclosed a
picture of my steel legs installed. Although I do NOT have an Xtra, you
get the idea of what I've built. You may note that I haven't adjusted
the wing's incidence, yet.
For those that care, I'm almost finished with my fiberglass droop
tips. More on that later.
Larry, like I said, if you decide you absolutely just have to build
your own steel legs, rather than buy them, I have a compendium of
information, to help make the process painless.
Mike Welch
Kolb MkIII CX
Cat36Fly@aol.com wrote:
General Question to all;
Have A MkIII X with the aluminum gear legs. On occasion the plane
wants to nose over, especially when loaded with a couple of fairly big
guys (175 +200). I know there were some problems like this when the
MKIIIx came out but I haven't heard about any lately. Is this do to the
new steel gear legs that has moved the wheels forward. I am considering
installing them but would like to get some feed back on the pro's and
con's of the new legs.
Thanks
Larry Tasker
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Be a better friend, newshound, and
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> But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light?
> Russ Kinne
Russ:
That is what I use my ASI for.
john r
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It would have to be a pretty loud horn for me to hear it :)
BB
do not archive
On 4, May 2008, at 8:55 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> > But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light?
>> Russ Kinne
> Russ:
>
> That is what I use my ASI for.
>
> john r
>
>
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At 08:38 PM 5/4/2008, you wrote:
>
>Hey Possum,
>
> That was odd watching the stall where you pulled the stick back
>
>to make it stall more..... I noticed you never had to really push the stick
>
>forward to recover....
I noticed that too, now that you mentioned it.
But I don't really think about what I'm doing anymore, I've been
in the same plan so long.
The plan picks up enough speed on the break without me having to
add any - I guess.
The controls used to be sloppy at 30mph - before I added the VGs.
But I know you don't need them if you don't want to add them.
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick and other Videos |
Added another. Duct tape makes for a nice camera mount... [Wink]
--------
Kip
Firestar II (born September 2000)
Atlanta, GA
N111KX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181153#181153
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dead Stick and other Videos |
At 10:36 PM 5/4/2008, you wrote:
>
>Added another. Duct tape makes for a nice camera mount... [Wink]
>
>--------
>Kip
Where ?
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