Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:45 AM - Re: trim (pj.ladd)
2. 02:48 AM - Re: Q (pj.ladd)
3. 03:07 AM - Re: trim (pj.ladd)
4. 03:17 AM - Re: trim (pj.ladd)
5. 03:23 AM - Re: trim (pj.ladd)
6. 03:34 AM - Re: trim (pj.ladd)
7. 04:01 AM - Re: trim (Dana Hague)
8. 04:27 AM - Re: Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? (Jack B. Hart)
9. 04:45 AM - Re: Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? (Dana Hague)
10. 05:36 AM - Re: trim (robert bean)
11. 05:54 AM - Re: Q (John Hauck)
12. 05:57 AM - Re: trim (John Hauck)
13. 10:59 AM - For Sale - Skyforce Skymap IIIC - NEW - Latest Database (Matt Dralle)
14. 11:09 AM - Re: trim (boyd)
15. 11:26 AM - trim (pj.ladd)
16. 11:36 AM - Re: Q (pj.ladd)
17. 12:09 PM - Red Bull at Monument Valley (Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL)
18. 02:23 PM - Re: Red Bull at Monument Valley (John Hauck)
19. 02:35 PM - Re: Red Bull at Monument Valley (robert bean)
20. 02:58 PM - For Sale - RMI uEncoder - NEW - Assembled (Matt Dralle)
21. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? (Jack B. Hart)
22. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? (Dana Hague)
23. 07:44 PM - fuel (william sullivan)
24. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? (John Hauck)
Message 1
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Thanks Steve,
I will check. Sorry about the boo boo., can`t think things through as
well as I once did. Slapped wrist. I bet you are not the only one to
catch me out. Oh the shame, the humiliatiion.
Pat
Message 2
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, you should be able to CORRECT the fault. >>
I could probably do that with a 200 lb. plus person in the passenger
seat. Didn`t have this trouble with the Challenger where the passenger
sits behind the pilot as God intended.
Cheers
Patl
Message 3
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Hi John
<<Keep that up and you will catch up with me and my flight time in a
MKIIIx>>
I should live so long.
<<You did not mention is the X was trimmed up in yaw. If not, the X
will fly one wing low.>>
String stays pretty much in the middle so I don`t think it is that. I
have no trim tab on the rudder and can`t remember one on the plans. I
shall have to check.
The rebuild was done by a professional. Like you we have to construct
more than 50% of the plane but that rule doesn`t apply to repairs. The
guy has a good reputation and the work I saw before it was covered
seemed good. Not that I know much about metalwork. I grew up in a Timber
and Builders Merchnts so I am more at home with wood.
Good luck on the way to MV
Pat
Message 4
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back up a little before I started adding a trim tab. >>
Hi Mike,
thanks for your thoughts. I will do some checking. Someone else has pointed
out that the rear wing fittings are slightly different and should be fitted
one way up on one wing and `upside down` on the other.
The port wing is the one that was rebuilt after the crunch but the builder
has a top class reputation and I would not expect him to build a cranky
wing. Still, even Homer nods.
Cheers
Pat
Message 5
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Wow that is quite a bit out of trim>>
Hi Rick,
thanks for the advice. The adjusters look like the first step.
Advice is pouring in. What a great list.
Enjoy MV. Wish I could make it again this year
Cheers and thanks
Pat
Message 6
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I currently have a homely looking tab on the right wing, I plan on
replacing it with a longer.
narrower one for esthetic reasons. Haven't rushed it because it
flies hands-off.>>
Hi Robert,
What size is your tab and what size are you thinking of going to. What
have you made it from. Metal,. perspex? How is it fixed and to what.
Aileron trailing edge is pretty thin to take a rivet.
It has been pointed out to me that I got the `push-pull` direction wrong
. Probably a whole new thread there!
Thanks
Pat
Message 7
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At 06:31 AM 5/9/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
>What size is your tab and what size are you thinking of going to. What
>have you made it from. Metal,. perspex? How is it fixed and to what.
>Aileron trailing edge is pretty thin to take a rivet.
Pat, I put trim tabs on the elevator of my US using .025 aluminum (Alclad)
and I held them on with #4-40 screws tapped into the trailing edge tube...
figuring I could easily remove them or also easily drill them out and use
1/8" rivets if necessary for a more permanent attachment, but so far it
hasn't been necessary, they're holding fine.
-Dana
--
Campaigns to bearproof all garbage containers in some national parka have
been difficult, because as one biologist put it, "There is a considerable
overlap between the intelligence levels of the smartest bears and the
dumbest tourists."
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? |
Dana,
There is a solution to the problem of slow roll rate and wing twist.
Shorten the chord of the aileron. This will reduce aileron dynamic loading
so that ailerons can be more easily displaced. And at the same time it
reduces the amount of twisting moment which the aileron subjects the wing
for a given aileron tip displacement. This in turn removes significant load
from the aileron control mechanism.
I built one of the early FireFlys and after flying it a few hours, I reduced
the aileron chord to nine inches. As a result, I have a FireFly that is
very light on the controls and it flys like a P-51 if you keep the speed up.
No trouble flying in the middle of the day or during windy conditions, and
I can fly it cross country in the middle of the day with out a sore shoulder.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? |
At 08:14 AM 5/9/2008, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>There is a solution to the problem of slow roll rate and wing twist.
>Shorten the chord of the aileron. This will reduce aileron dynamic loading
>so that ailerons can be more easily displaced. And at the same time it
>reduces the amount of twisting moment which the aileron subjects the wing
>for a given aileron tip displacement. This in turn removes significant load
>from the aileron control mechanism...
Shortening the aileron chord would certainly reduce control forces, but it
won't increase the roll rate for a given aileron deflection. It takes a
certain amount of aerodynamic force to cause a certain roll rate; with less
aileron you need more deflection to achieve that same force. I don't have
a problem with the stick force. The real solution, as John H. and others
have pointed out, is to reinforce the wing spar attachment.
I'm currently not up for a project as large as rebuilding the ailerons. If
I was, I think I'd leave the chord alone but split them, and make the inner
half into flaps... but that's a project for another year.
-Dana
--
Campaigns to bearproof all garbage containers in some national parka have
been difficult, because as one biologist put it, "There is a considerable
overlap between the intelligence levels of the smartest bears and the
dumbest tourists."
Message 10
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Me too with the screws. I used little dome head stainless. I
figured I could easily take
it off if it wasn't right. I bent a little "L" at the attach area
and then bent that to fit the aileron
Over a piece of round tube. It has a little wiggle but hasn't fallen
off yet.
The shape is approx. 6" X 2" and when I make a new one it will be
10" X 1 1/2"
I will also run a bead of silicone behind it.
Wings are still wrapped in an old pool cover up in the shed so those
numbers are from memory.
BB
On 9, May 2008, at 6:55 AM, Dana Hague wrote:
> At 06:31 AM 5/9/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
>
>> What size is your tab and what size are you thinking of going to.
>> What have you made it from. Metal,. perspex? How is it fixed and
>> to what. Aileron trailing edge is pretty thin to take a rivet.
>
> Pat, I put trim tabs on the elevator of my US using .025 aluminum
> (Alclad) and I held them on with #4-40 screws tapped into the
> trailing edge tube... figuring I could easily remove them or also
> easily drill them out and use 1/8" rivets if necessary for a more
> permanent attachment, but so far it hasn't been necessary, they're
> holding fine.
>
> -Dana
> --
> Campaigns to bearproof all garbage containers in some national
> parka have been difficult, because as one biologist put it, "There
> is a considerable overlap between the intelligence levels of the
> smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."
>
>
Message 11
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Patrick:
Recommend youj sell your Kolb and buy another Challenger.
john h
mkIII
Didn`t have this trouble with the Challenger where the passenger sits
behind the pilot as God intended.
Patl
Message 12
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Patrick:
A MKIIIx with no adverse yaw problem is one of a kind. I know of no
other that does not fly without a rudder trim tab.
In fact, all my Kolbs, US, FS, and MKIII, required rudder trim tabs or a
very strong foot.
john h
mkIII
<<You did not mention is the X was trimmed up in yaw. If not, the X
will fly one wing low.>>
String stays pretty much in the middle so I don`t think it is that. I
have no trim tab on the rudder and can`t remember one on the plans. I
shall have to check.
Good luck on the way to MV
Pat
Message 13
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| Subject: | For Sale - Skyforce Skymap IIIC - NEW - Latest Database |
Dear Listers,
I am selling a new-in-box Skyforce Skymap IIIC full color GPS moving map with Topo.
The database and firmware were just upgraded 05/2008. Includes a Panel
Mounting bracket, GPS Antenna, cigarette lighter adapter, carrying case, and all
manuals. Brand new, never used. No scratches. The pictures below are of
the actual unit. The LCD color display on the IIIC is extremely nice and very
bright. Gives altitude readout. RS232 output.
I have over $2500 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $2200 plus
shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first
served.
Please email me off list at dralle@matronics.com if you are interested.
Matt Dralle
List Admin / RV-4 Builder
1ea - Skyforce Skymap IIIC w/ GPS and Americas Database. . .$2367.00 . .$2367.00
1ea - Panel Mount. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$98.00 . . .$98.00
1ea - Firmware and Database Update 5/8/2008. . . . . . . . . .$50.00 . . .$50.00
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $2515.00
Message 14
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Hi,
managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra yesterday in very thermic
conditions with poor viz. Landed after the flight with my wrist aching
from
holding up the port wing. Just to make things crystal clear in my
mind,,,
you are saying it rolls to the left if you let go of the stick?
I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum lift on the port wing
and
minimum on the starboard, within the limits of fiddling with the washers
and
I had about 40 litres of water lashed to the passengers seat. Still a
long
way out of trim
I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method on my next flight to
see
if that helps. After that it seems that the only recourse is to fit a
trim
tab. I am sure someone has experience with this. Any comments? I
presume
that I should fit it to the aileron in such a way that it tends to push
the
s`board aileron down and the port one, up. If the trim tab pushes the
s=92board/right aileron down and the port/left aileron up, that will
cause
it to roll to the left even worse
Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn=92t seem much there to pop a
rivet
in. I put 2 or 3 pop rivits into the trailing edge, and one on each
rib, at
the forward part of the tab. What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that
could be used temporarily to try the idea out.
Any ideas about he size a tab would need to be? . if the aircraft
rolls
left (hands off) then you want the trim tab to force the left/port
aileron
down and the right/s=92board aileron up depending on the force required
to
keep it straight and level, will dictate the amount of trim tab
required.
My trim tab fits between two ribs on the aileron, total length is about
4
inches front to back, with a bend at the center, with the front half
laid
flat on a table, the trailing edge is about =BD inch off the table. That
should give you some idea on the amount of bend required.
If the plane roles to the left you would be best served by placing the
trim
tab at the bottom center of the right aileron with the bend pointing
down.
Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately blowing half a gale.
If it
doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying today
Pat
Before I put on a tab, I would adjust the incidence of the wing so that
when
in straight and level flight, both of the ailerons lined up with the
flaps.
Then remove the roll with the trim tab.
When I first built my MKIII rolled to the right, but when in straight
and
level flight the ailerons were straight with the flaps, I changed the
incidence of the wings to eliminate the stick pressure but then the
ailerons
in relation to the flaps were no longer in a straight line. So I took
the
incidence changes back out of the wings and installed the trip tab, it
now
flies straight with no stick pressure and the entire training edge lines
up
nicely while in flight.
Boyd Young
Kolb MKIII C
Brigham City Ut.
Message 15
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Thanks everyone for your suggestions regarding my trim problem.
Just returned from my field and Steve Green seems to have hit the nail
on the head with his suggestion that the offset joint connecting the
trailing edge to the cage was upside down.. They are both the wrong way
round. The worst possible combination.
Shall have to leave the work until tomorrow as I shall need another pair
of hands to support the wing.
Pity as it is a quiet evening, warm, no wind and a flight would have
been nice. There isa bit of thundercloud building, white but very hard
edged so it will probably rain in the next few hours.
Thanks again to everyone on this great list. I will report back on the
success or otherwise of the corrective work. Fingers crossed.
Pat
Message 16
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Recommend youj sell your Kolb and buy another Challenger.>>
With VG`s fitted.?
Pat :-)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Red Bull at Monument Valley |
Kolb Friends -
Here's a short video I discovered recently.
This is what was happening the week before our 5th annual Kolb Gathering
at Monument Valley, last year.
It is also the reason why the Goulding's runway got new pavement, and
why they painted "RB" on the approach end of runway 35. (Instead of
"35.")
HYPERLINK
"http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-7-6-red_bull-hitt
ing-pylon.MOV"
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-7-6-red_bull-hitti
ng-pylon.MOV
Dennis Kirby
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull at Monument Valley |
> It is also the reason why the Goulding's runway got new pavement, and
> why they painted "RB" on the approach end of runway 35. (Instead of
> "35.")
>
> Dennis Kirby
Dennis K:
MV, UT25, is 16/34.
I didn't pay much attention to the RB painted on the runway so can not
remember if it was on 16 or 34, or both.
I mention this only for clarification. If I don't I am apt to remember the
last thing I saw written on the MV runway and think it is 17/35. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull at Monument Valley |
This HAS to be another Kirby...
(click on air race)
http://www.redbullcopilot.com/
On 9, May 2008, at 3:04 PM, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL wrote:
> AL" <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
>
>
> Kolb Friends -
>
> Here's a short video I discovered recently.
> This is what was happening the week before our 5th annual Kolb
> Gathering
> at Monument Valley, last year.
> It is also the reason why the Goulding's runway got new pavement, and
> why they painted "RB" on the approach end of runway 35. (Instead of
> "35.")
>
> HYPERLINK
> "http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-7-6-red_bull-
> hitt
> ing-pylon.MOV"
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-7-6-red_bull-
> hitti
> ng-pylon.MOV
>
> Dennis Kirby
> Cedar Crest, NM
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | For Sale - RMI uEncoder - NEW - Assembled |
Dear Listers,
I am selling a new, never used, fully assembled RMI uEncoder. The uEncoder just
had all of the latest hardware and software updates factory installed including
the new high contrast LCD display supporting Fahrenheit temp readings AND
the new LED fiberoptic backlight. The uEncoder displays airspeed, altitude, fpm,
OAT, and outputs Mode C data for most transponders.
The uEncoder is in new condition with no scratches and all installation material
and manuals. The pictures below are of the actual unit for sale. The table
below lists all of the items included.
I have nearly $1500 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $1100
plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first
served.
Please email me off list at dralle@matronics.com if you are interested.
Matt Dralle
List Admin / RV-4 Builder
1ea - RMI microENCODER ASSEMBLED . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1179.00 . $1179.00
1ea - RMI Factory Upgrade of LCD (Fahrenheit Temp, US Miles),
. . . . . . Fiberoptic LED Backlight, Latest Firmware . . . . . $ 315.00 . $ 315.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1494.00
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? |
At 07:42 AM 5/9/08 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Shortening the aileron chord would certainly reduce control forces, but it
>won't increase the roll rate for a given aileron deflection. It takes a
>certain amount of aerodynamic force to cause a certain roll rate; with less
>aileron you need more deflection to achieve that same force. I don't have
>a problem with the stick force. The real solution, as John H. and others
>have pointed out, is to reinforce the wing spar attachment.
>
Dana,
You are correct in that a shorter chord aileron will not provide the same
roll rate as a longer chord aileron for the same angular displacement.
If one cuts the aileron chord in half, you have to about double the
displacement to get the same change in lift for the same air speed. In
doing this the center of pressure of the short chord aileron will be at
one-fourth as apposed to one-half the chord for the full chord aileron. If
one flys both ailerons at the same speed the full aileron dynamic load will
be 1.2 times that of the short aileron. This means the bell crank torque
required to hold the full aileron in position will be 2.4 times that of the
half chord aileron.
All of the above would be true if the wing was perfectly stiff. But in
reality, the tail of the wing kicks up and lowers the relative AOA from what
it should be. And so one will see a slower roll rate from the full aileron
than the half chord aileron. If you want to reduce wing warping use shorter
chord ailerons with greater displacement.
Adding a steel root rib as used in the FireFly does nothing for the main
spar attachment point but it will help to transfer some of the twist load to
the wing rear attachment point. But it will not completely stiffen the
whole wing. High roll rates at speed will still warp or twist the wing.
Fly safe
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? |
At 08:35 PM 5/9/2008, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>If one cuts the aileron chord in half, you have to about double the
>displacement to get the same change in lift for the same air speed. In
>doing this the center of pressure of the short chord aileron will be at
>one-fourth as apposed to one-half the chord for the full chord aileron.
OK, I'll buy that. Not sure it's really linear but let's go with it.
>If one flys both ailerons at the same speed the full aileron dynamic load
>will
>be 1.2 times that of the short aileron. This means the bell crank torque
>required to hold the full aileron in position will be 2.4 times that of the
>half chord aileron.
Where do you get the 1.2 from... and thus the 2.4?
If you have to move the aileron twice as far to get the same effect (same
aerodynamic force), but the moment arm to the center of pressure is halved,
then the torque applied to the aileron is also halved. However, you have
to move the stick twice as far (not possible on the US, at least not on mine).
To get the same control authority for a given stick deflection, then you
have to adjust the control linkage to get double the aileron movement for
the same stick deflection, which multiplies the torque by a factor of
two... net result, same stick force.
>All of the above would be true if the wing was perfectly stiff. But in
>reality, the tail of the wing kicks up and lowers the relative AOA from what
>it should be. And so one will see a slower roll rate from the full aileron
>than the half chord aileron. If you want to reduce wing warping use shorter
>chord ailerons with greater displacement.
I don't see that at all. If the rolling force (regardless of the aileron
size) is the same, then the amount of twist it causes in the wing should be
the same.
>Adding a steel root rib as used in the FireFly does nothing for the main
>spar attachment point but it will help to transfer some of the twist load to
>the wing rear attachment point. But it will not completely stiffen the
>whole wing. High roll rates at speed will still warp or twist the wing.
The modification suggested for the US is not a steel root rib (which it
already has), but a collar to reinforce the main spar attachment to the
root rib, keep the spar tube round, and keep the spar from twisting...
though I'm not convinced how the modification, as I understand it, would
help that much.
-Dana
--
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
Message 23
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I suggest that anyone interested in ethanol in their fuel read the last few days
of the Matronics Rotax List Digest. Very interesting, informative reading-
especially for those making long CC flights.
do not archive
Bill Sullivan
FS/KX/447
Windsor Locks, Ct.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Ultrastar aileron bellcrank? |
> All of the above would be true if the wing was perfectly stiff. But in
> reality, the tail of the wing kicks up and lowers the relative AOA from
> what
> it should be. And so one will see a slower roll rate from the full
> aileron
> than the half chord aileron. If you want to reduce wing warping use
> shorter
> chord ailerons with greater displacement.
>
> Adding a steel root rib as used in the FireFly does nothing for the main
> spar attachment point but it will help to transfer some of the twist load
> to
> the wing rear attachment point. But it will not completely stiffen the
> whole wing. High roll rates at speed will still warp or twist the wing.
>
> Fly safe
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H:
I have a feeling you don't know what you are talking about. You say, "But
in reality, the tail of the wing kicks up and lowers the relative AOA from
what it should be." How do you know this is reality? Have you been there
and done that?
I believe I tried previously to explain what actually happens to the early
model US wing when the ailerons are actuated. The entire wing twist with
the main spar because the main spare "oil cans". The two internal tubes
butt welded to the inboard rib, then riveted to the inside of themain spar,
top and bottom, can not keep the main spar in its original round shape.
This effectively cancels out all the aileron input. No, it does not happen
as the result of docile control input. One has to be a bit agressive to
twist the wing.
Old Kolb discovered there was a better way to attach the main spar to the
inboard rib, thus, the 4130 ring. Some models the ring slipped inside the
main spar and some models the spar slipped inside the ring. My FS had the
ring and it fixed the problem. No more wing twist when the ailerons were
actuated.
To the best of my knowledge, all the subsequent model Kolbs, after the early
US, do not suffer from wing twist. The problem was solved.
john h
mkIII
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