Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:53 AM - Re: Re: ciikie salute! (Dan G.)
2. 04:37 AM - Firestar project (william sullivan)
3. 09:02 AM - Re: Firestar project (Eugene Zimmerman)
4. 09:37 AM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (JetPilot)
5. 09:44 AM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (JetPilot)
6. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (Jack B. Hart)
7. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (George Myers)
8. 01:58 PM - Re: Firestar project (robert bean)
9. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (robert bean)
10. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (robert bean)
11. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (Mike Welch)
12. 05:28 PM - Re: Firestar project (Dana Hague)
13. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (Jack B. Hart)
14. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (herb)
15. 05:59 PM - Re: Firefly landing leg reinforcement (Jack B. Hart)
16. 07:07 PM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (JetPilot)
17. 08:38 PM - Ethanol (Frank Clyma)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ciikie salute! |
I also want to thank Jon for the cookies as I was able to sample one
last Friday. Tasted especially good because I chose to fly that evening
instead of stopping for dinner. MV was a great trip especially because
of the company (despite what you've heard about these guys ;-) Next
time, tho, I won't leave a 25' trailer in the middle of the area the
turboprops use for picking up tourists. The crew sitting under the wing
in the second photo is John W, Rick Nielson, and John H .
Regards to all
Dan G
503 F2 N963DG
Tucson, AZ
Young, Rick Neilson
John Hauck wrote:
>
>Karen stole my cookie!
>
>Seriously, Jon, we all enjoyed the homemade cookies. Thanks for going to the
effort and expense of sending them to us.
>
>John W and I are still waiting for 25 to 30 mph winds to subside so we can fly
the 100 odd miles to the Rock House, 6 miles south of Burns Junction, OR. Lucky
for us, the FBO has been very generous with their courtesy car and hospitality.
Looks like we may be here until Friday morning, unless a miracle happens.
>
>Take care,
>
>--------
>John Hauck
>MKIII/912ULS
>hauck's holler, alabama
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184236#184236
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Firestar project |
I corrected the dihedral yesterday. I ordered 2 new ends from TNK, and had them
make them 8" long, just in case. I put a level on the main frame, and corrected
with a jack. Then I jacked up each wing, and used a line level on mason's
twine. The twine was duct taped to the inboard bottom of the wing. When I had
the correct measurement, I drilled a spotter hole for a rivet. I took the strut
off, cut the excess tube end, and lubed with "Fluid Film" on all parts- including
inside the tube. After drilling and riveting, all rivets and joints were
sealed with silicone sealant.
The only problems I ran into was to constantly check the frame level as I jacked
the wing- the weight shift would change the level. Also, gusts of wind-
15mph- would stop the work, and then I'd re-check the level.
Thanks to Ellery, Ed Harvey, and TNK for measurements and procedures. Dihedral
looks good. Love my Makita drill- only went through 1 battery for 52 holes.
Next part of the project is to install the 5 gallon tank. Whoever made this
thing made sure the 10 gallon tank won't fall out. I might have to cut it out.
There is a "tube and plate" top clamp riveted in place; a strap; and about a
2" flange at the bottom. Access is going to be through the fabric behind the
seat. I will replace all fuel line while I can.
Bill Sullivan
FS/KX/447
Windsor Locks,
Ct.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar project |
On May 24, 2008, at 7:34 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> Next part of the project is to install the 5 gallon tank. Whoever
> made this thing made sure the 10 gallon tank won't fall out. I might
> have to cut it out.
What a shame.
Someday you will wish you had more fuel capacity.
You will be as "legal" with ten gallon as you will be with five anyway
with a Kolb FS/KX/447.
Running out of fuel can be ultimately more costly than anything else
you fear .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
[quote="pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com"]Is yours a Gravity feed?>>
Hi,
No. Tanks are a couple of feet below the engine. Pick up is from the top of
the tanks and the balancing air inlets are grommet push fit into the handles.
Fuel is drawn equally from both tanks. If I add a third tank, feeding fuel
into the same pick up line and adding a tee to the same air line there would
be no more chance of sucking air than already exists. They will all empty together
(roughly). I assume that I should have to install the tank at the same
level as the existing ones?
If I can do this it saves all the problems of transfer of fuel.
Cheers
Pat
> [b]
Pat,
I would not add a third tank to this system. Pulling fuel from the top of the
tank is not a good setup, if you get even the slightest leak anywhere in a suction
system such as this you will just be sucking air and the engine will quit.
Adding a third tank to this system just increases the chances that you will
one day have a slight leak somewhere.
Also, all three tanks need to have the same vent pressure, and need to be at the
same level for this system to work. If one of the tanks is emptied before the
others for any reason, its pickup tube will immediately fill the fuel system
with air, and you will be flying a glider, no matter how full the other two
tanks are.
Three tanks being drawn from the top could work, but it is a system with a lot
of unnecessary risks and is just an engine failure waiting to happen.
Fuel systems should be pressure fed, that way a pinhole would be a very slow drip
instead of a sudden engine stoppage. You also have vapor lock to consider,
and a lot of other reasons that your fuel system should be pressure fed rather
than having a pump suction fed from the tanks. I had the standard fuel tanks
on my MK III, and changed it so that the fuel pump is now below the level
of the tanks.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184643#184643
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
Mark,
Why would your engine quit if your Facet pump failed ? Don't you have an engine
driven pump ? Most installations have both, on my Kolb the engine does not
quit when I turn the Facet pump off.
Also, there is no advantage to installing a relay to control the facet pump. There
is not reason to try to "Isolate" the pump from the rest of the electrical
system. You only complicate the electrical, and increase risk of a failure
for absoluetly nothing. The facet pump draws very little power and is not prone
to electrical failures.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184644#184644
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
At 09:35 AM 5/24/08 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Fuel systems should be pressure fed, that way a pinhole would be a very
slow drip instead of a sudden engine stoppage. You also have vapor lock to
consider, and a lot of other reasons that your fuel system should be
pressure fed rather than having a pump suction fed from the tanks. I had
the standard fuel tanks on my MK III, and changed it so that the fuel pump
is now below the level of the tanks.
>
Mike,
The nice thing about a suction system and feeding from the top of the tank
is there is less likelihood of a fire. I believe I would rather go with the
silent engine rather than a fire. But in both cases the chances of either
are fairly small.
Jack B.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
I decided to make one of these and ordered a facet pump. Since I have an old
twinstar and only have a 5 gallon tank, bungee a 5 gal tank on the boom tube
just in front of the H frame. Doubles my range. Knowing how I am, I got to
worrying about what would happen if I left the pump running too long and the
main tank overflowed. So I got to thinking what would be nice would be to
pressurize the bottom tank a little at a time, forcing the gas into the top
tank as needed. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, so I ran a pickup
tube in through the cap using a grommet, and then a line from the top of the
tank with a grommet & L to the front next to the seat and put a cutoff valve
on it. Now after flying a while I just puff a lung full of air in the tube &
shut the valve. So long as it holds pressure I know I still have fuel in the
bottom tank. So long as I'm breathing I can transfer fuel. Works great.
Didn't cost me a penny. I have a little mirror I strap on my wrist as a fuel
gauge so when the tank gets down a gallon or two I go to huffin' & puffin'.
If anybody's interested I'll post some pictures.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R. Hankins
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 4:44 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?
George:
Here are some quick shots of my setup. I'll be using it to fly 356 air
miles to the Rock House this Wednesday to meet up with John H, John W, and
Larry and Karen Cottrell.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183894#183894
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080677_108.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080678_142.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080679_587.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080680_184.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080682_125.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080683_157.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar project |
Yea, I hate when that happens. Nearly as bad is trying to squeeze
another mile out
of a low tank to get home.
Got 8 gallons of precious fluid poured in this evening to maybe go to
the first social
event hereabouts tomorrow morning. -winds depending.
-chicken BB
do not archive
On 24, May 2008, at 11:58 AM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>
>
> On May 24, 2008, at 7:34 AM, william sullivan wrote:
>
>> Next part of the project is to install the 5 gallon tank. Whoever
>> made this thing made sure the 10 gallon tank won't fall out. I
>> might have to cut it out.
>
>
> What a shame.
> Someday you will wish you had more fuel capacity.
> You will be as "legal" with ten gallon as you will be with five
> anyway with a Kolb FS/KX/447.
>
> Running out of fuel can be ultimately more costly than anything
> else you fear .
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
re: fuel pump relay.... call me quirky.
Guess I'm used to relays after many years in the HVAC business.
My old (homemade) water source heat pump is a Rube Goldberg heaven.
No flames at my house unless I light up the oxy acetylene.
water press switch, time delay relay for the fan, low temp relay,
+ stuff I can't remember. Cheaper than ignition based heat.
BTW I'm living dangerously with the facet being my sole fuel supply.
Car engines seem to lack mechanical pumps with the advent of FI
BB
do not archive
On 24, May 2008, at 12:42 PM, JetPilot wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Why would your engine quit if your Facet pump failed ? Don't you
> have an engine driven pump ? Most installations have both, on my
> Kolb the engine does not quit when I turn the Facet pump off.
>
> Also, there is no advantage to installing a relay to control the
> facet pump. There is not reason to try to "Isolate" the pump from
> the rest of the electrical system. You only complicate the
> electrical, and increase risk of a failure for absoluetly nothing.
> The facet pump draws very little power and is not prone to
> electrical failures.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184644#184644
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
Pretty innovative George. Just don't go huffin' and SUCKIN" heh heh
I have the standard two fives in my MkIII. I have them top fed and
valved for either/or
If my second tank is half full I will go both on the TO trip and
single on the return.
I also carry a mechanical transfer pump just in case.
At 2 1/2 GPH my 8 gallons usable gives me a decent range in the old
tugboat.
BB
do not archive
On 24, May 2008, at 3:40 PM, George Myers wrote:
>
> I decided to make one of these and ordered a facet pump. Since I
> have an old
> twinstar and only have a 5 gallon tank, bungee a 5 gal tank on the
> boom tube
> just in front of the H frame. Doubles my range. Knowing how I am, I
> got to
> worrying about what would happen if I left the pump running too
> long and the
> main tank overflowed. So I got to thinking what would be nice would
> be to
> pressurize the bottom tank a little at a time, forcing the gas into
> the top
> tank as needed. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, so I ran
> a pickup
> tube in through the cap using a grommet, and then a line from the
> top of the
> tank with a grommet & L to the front next to the seat and put a
> cutoff valve
> on it. Now after flying a while I just puff a lung full of air in
> the tube &
> shut the valve. So long as it holds pressure I know I still have
> fuel in the
> bottom tank. So long as I'm breathing I can transfer fuel. Works
> great.
> Didn't cost me a penny. I have a little mirror I strap on my wrist
> as a fuel
> gauge so when the tank gets down a gallon or two I go to huffin' &
> puffin'.
> If anybody's interested I'll post some pictures.
> George
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R. Hankins
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 4:44 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas?
>
>
> George:
> Here are some quick shots of my setup. I'll be using it to fly 356
> air
> miles to the Rock House this Wednesday to meet up with John H, John
> W, and
> Larry and Karen Cottrell.
>
> --------
> Roger in Oregon
> 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183894#183894
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080677_108.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080678_142.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080679_587.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080680_184.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080682_125.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080683_157.jpg
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
> re: fuel pump relay.... call me quirky.> Guess I'm used to relays after m
any years in the HVAC business.> My old (homemade) water source heat pump i
s a Rube Goldberg heaven.> No flames at my house unless I light up the oxy
acetylene.> water press switch, time delay relay for the fan, low temp rela
y,> + stuff I can't remember. Cheaper than ignition based heat.> > BTW I'm
living dangerously with the facet being my sole fuel supply.> Car engines s
eem to lack mechanical pumps with the advent of FI> BB> do not archive>
Bob,
Car engines don't have mechanical fuel pumps anymore, because they use th
ose scary, prone to failure, explosive & always spookey...in-tank fuel pump
s. Oooooooooohhh!!!!! (ghost noises!)
Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL in-ta
nk fuel pumps....brushless motors. Ooooooh! (more ghost noises)
Mike Welch
_________________________________________________________________
Change the world with e-mail. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft.
ld
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar project |
At 11:58 AM 5/24/2008, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>Someday you will wish you had more fuel capacity.
>You will be as "legal" with ten gallon as you will be with five anyway
>with a Kolb FS/KX/447.
Bill's got it at or very close to 103 legal weight. And a 10 gallon tank
is a much more obvious violation than a few pounds overweight.
-Dana
--
Please let me know if you did not receive this.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL in-tank fuel
pumps....brushless motors. Ooooooh! (more ghost noises)
...........................
Mike,
I cut open the one that came out of the tank on my 96 GMC Sonoma and the
pump had brushes.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
Same here Jack...the motor, brushes and all was immersed in gasoline... Herb
At 08:40 PM 5/24/2008, you wrote:
>
>From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:22 -0700
>
>Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL
>in-tank fuel pumps....brushless motors. Ooooooh! (more ghost noises)
>...........................
>
>Mike,
>
>I cut open the one that came out of the tank on my 96 GMC Sonoma and the
>pump had brushes.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Winchester, IN
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly landing leg reinforcement |
From: william sullivan
Jack- Did you try the Firefly legs yet?
do not archive
Bill,
I got a chance to fly late this afternoon. During taxiing, the ride is a
little rougher than before. Noticed no difference in handling during a
cross wind take off and landing. In watching the wheels, there is no
outward flex of the leg.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? |
George,
I also thought about the possibility of overfilling the main tank in my Kolb with
the AUX tank. If I every got really brain dead, and pumped my AUX fuel into
my main tanks way to soon, the mains would overfill and go out the vent tube
for my main tanks which exits the bottom of the plane. The worst that happens
is I pump gas overboard at 4 bucks a gallon [Evil or Very Mad]
Mark,
The Facet pump is pretty darn reliable as long as you have a fuel filter in line
before the pump. I would worry more about an electrical failure making that
pump stop rather than the pump itself. What kind of engine do you have ?
The engine driven fuel pump on the Rotax 447 trike that I fly only costs about
30 bucks. It would be cheap and easy to have both pumps on your plane which
would keep your engine running in case a wire breaks or electrical power lost
for some reason.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184697#184697
Message 17
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Ethanol laced fuel is now showing up in the greater Jacksonville FL
area, at major brand stations. I got a positive "olive jar" test on
Chevron last week----their pumps have been marked for several weeks now.
Three days ago the "10% Ethanol" warning was put on the BP/Amoco pumps,
although the gas still tests OK. I asked the attendant if they might
leave the premium alone, and he said he haden't heard.
I'd like to hear more about what people are using for fuel in the areas
already effected. (In addition to the recent round of discussion on the
subject.) Everybody is going to have to deal with this soon.
Frank Clyma
Jacksonville FL
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