---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/24/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:53 AM - Re: Re: ciikie salute! (Dan G.) 2. 04:37 AM - Firestar project (william sullivan) 3. 09:02 AM - Re: Firestar project (Eugene Zimmerman) 4. 09:37 AM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (JetPilot) 5. 09:44 AM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (JetPilot) 6. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (Jack B. Hart) 7. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (George Myers) 8. 01:58 PM - Re: Firestar project (robert bean) 9. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (robert bean) 10. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (robert bean) 11. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (Mike Welch) 12. 05:28 PM - Re: Firestar project (Dana Hague) 13. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (Jack B. Hart) 14. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (herb) 15. 05:59 PM - Re: Firefly landing leg reinforcement (Jack B. Hart) 16. 07:07 PM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (JetPilot) 17. 08:38 PM - Ethanol (Frank Clyma) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:09 AM PST US From: "Dan G." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ciikie salute! I also want to thank Jon for the cookies as I was able to sample one last Friday. Tasted especially good because I chose to fly that evening instead of stopping for dinner. MV was a great trip especially because of the company (despite what you've heard about these guys ;-) Next time, tho, I won't leave a 25' trailer in the middle of the area the turboprops use for picking up tourists. The crew sitting under the wing in the second photo is John W, Rick Nielson, and John H . Regards to all Dan G 503 F2 N963DG Tucson, AZ Young, Rick Neilson John Hauck wrote: > >Karen stole my cookie! > >Seriously, Jon, we all enjoyed the homemade cookies. Thanks for going to the effort and expense of sending them to us. > >John W and I are still waiting for 25 to 30 mph winds to subside so we can fly the 100 odd miles to the Rock House, 6 miles south of Burns Junction, OR. Lucky for us, the FBO has been very generous with their courtesy car and hospitality. Looks like we may be here until Friday morning, unless a miracle happens. > >Take care, > >-------- >John Hauck >MKIII/912ULS >hauck's holler, alabama > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184236#184236 > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:15 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar project I corrected the dihedral yesterday. I ordered 2 new ends from TNK, and had them make them 8" long, just in case. I put a level on the main frame, and corrected with a jack. Then I jacked up each wing, and used a line level on mason's twine. The twine was duct taped to the inboard bottom of the wing. When I had the correct measurement, I drilled a spotter hole for a rivet. I took the strut off, cut the excess tube end, and lubed with "Fluid Film" on all parts- including inside the tube. After drilling and riveting, all rivets and joints were sealed with silicone sealant. The only problems I ran into was to constantly check the frame level as I jacked the wing- the weight shift would change the level. Also, gusts of wind- 15mph- would stop the work, and then I'd re-check the level. Thanks to Ellery, Ed Harvey, and TNK for measurements and procedures. Dihedral looks good. Love my Makita drill- only went through 1 battery for 52 holes. Next part of the project is to install the 5 gallon tank. Whoever made this thing made sure the 10 gallon tank won't fall out. I might have to cut it out. There is a "tube and plate" top clamp riveted in place; a strap; and about a 2" flange at the bottom. Access is going to be through the fabric behind the seat. I will replace all fuel line while I can. Bill Sullivan FS/KX/447 Windsor Locks, Ct. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:23 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar project On May 24, 2008, at 7:34 AM, william sullivan wrote: > Next part of the project is to install the 5 gallon tank. Whoever > made this thing made sure the 10 gallon tank won't fall out. I might > have to cut it out. What a shame. Someday you will wish you had more fuel capacity. You will be as "legal" with ten gallon as you will be with five anyway with a Kolb FS/KX/447. Running out of fuel can be ultimately more costly than anything else you fear . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:52 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? From: "JetPilot" [quote="pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com"]Is yours a Gravity feed?>> Hi, No. Tanks are a couple of feet below the engine. Pick up is from the top of the tanks and the balancing air inlets are grommet push fit into the handles. Fuel is drawn equally from both tanks. If I add a third tank, feeding fuel into the same pick up line and adding a tee to the same air line there would be no more chance of sucking air than already exists. They will all empty together (roughly). I assume that I should have to install the tank at the same level as the existing ones? If I can do this it saves all the problems of transfer of fuel. Cheers Pat > [b] Pat, I would not add a third tank to this system. Pulling fuel from the top of the tank is not a good setup, if you get even the slightest leak anywhere in a suction system such as this you will just be sucking air and the engine will quit. Adding a third tank to this system just increases the chances that you will one day have a slight leak somewhere. Also, all three tanks need to have the same vent pressure, and need to be at the same level for this system to work. If one of the tanks is emptied before the others for any reason, its pickup tube will immediately fill the fuel system with air, and you will be flying a glider, no matter how full the other two tanks are. Three tanks being drawn from the top could work, but it is a system with a lot of unnecessary risks and is just an engine failure waiting to happen. Fuel systems should be pressure fed, that way a pinhole would be a very slow drip instead of a sudden engine stoppage. You also have vapor lock to consider, and a lot of other reasons that your fuel system should be pressure fed rather than having a pump suction fed from the tanks. I had the standard fuel tanks on my MK III, and changed it so that the fuel pump is now below the level of the tanks. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184643#184643 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? From: "JetPilot" Mark, Why would your engine quit if your Facet pump failed ? Don't you have an engine driven pump ? Most installations have both, on my Kolb the engine does not quit when I turn the Facet pump off. Also, there is no advantage to installing a relay to control the facet pump. There is not reason to try to "Isolate" the pump from the rest of the electrical system. You only complicate the electrical, and increase risk of a failure for absoluetly nothing. The facet pump draws very little power and is not prone to electrical failures. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184644#184644 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:56 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? At 09:35 AM 5/24/08 -0700, you wrote: > >Fuel systems should be pressure fed, that way a pinhole would be a very slow drip instead of a sudden engine stoppage. You also have vapor lock to consider, and a lot of other reasons that your fuel system should be pressure fed rather than having a pump suction fed from the tanks. I had the standard fuel tanks on my MK III, and changed it so that the fuel pump is now below the level of the tanks. > Mike, The nice thing about a suction system and feeding from the top of the tank is there is less likelihood of a fire. I believe I would rather go with the silent engine rather than a fire. But in both cases the chances of either are fairly small. Jack B. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:40 PM PST US From: "George Myers" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? I decided to make one of these and ordered a facet pump. Since I have an old twinstar and only have a 5 gallon tank, bungee a 5 gal tank on the boom tube just in front of the H frame. Doubles my range. Knowing how I am, I got to worrying about what would happen if I left the pump running too long and the main tank overflowed. So I got to thinking what would be nice would be to pressurize the bottom tank a little at a time, forcing the gas into the top tank as needed. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, so I ran a pickup tube in through the cap using a grommet, and then a line from the top of the tank with a grommet & L to the front next to the seat and put a cutoff valve on it. Now after flying a while I just puff a lung full of air in the tube & shut the valve. So long as it holds pressure I know I still have fuel in the bottom tank. So long as I'm breathing I can transfer fuel. Works great. Didn't cost me a penny. I have a little mirror I strap on my wrist as a fuel gauge so when the tank gets down a gallon or two I go to huffin' & puffin'. If anybody's interested I'll post some pictures. George -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R. Hankins Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? George: Here are some quick shots of my setup. I'll be using it to fly 356 air miles to the Rock House this Wednesday to meet up with John H, John W, and Larry and Karen Cottrell. -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183894#183894 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080677_108.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080678_142.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080679_587.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080680_184.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080682_125.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080683_157.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:48 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar project Yea, I hate when that happens. Nearly as bad is trying to squeeze another mile out of a low tank to get home. Got 8 gallons of precious fluid poured in this evening to maybe go to the first social event hereabouts tomorrow morning. -winds depending. -chicken BB do not archive On 24, May 2008, at 11:58 AM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: > > > On May 24, 2008, at 7:34 AM, william sullivan wrote: > >> Next part of the project is to install the 5 gallon tank. Whoever >> made this thing made sure the 10 gallon tank won't fall out. I >> might have to cut it out. > > > What a shame. > Someday you will wish you had more fuel capacity. > You will be as "legal" with ten gallon as you will be with five > anyway with a Kolb FS/KX/447. > > Running out of fuel can be ultimately more costly than anything > else you fear . > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:33 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? re: fuel pump relay.... call me quirky. Guess I'm used to relays after many years in the HVAC business. My old (homemade) water source heat pump is a Rube Goldberg heaven. No flames at my house unless I light up the oxy acetylene. water press switch, time delay relay for the fan, low temp relay, + stuff I can't remember. Cheaper than ignition based heat. BTW I'm living dangerously with the facet being my sole fuel supply. Car engines seem to lack mechanical pumps with the advent of FI BB do not archive On 24, May 2008, at 12:42 PM, JetPilot wrote: > > Mark, > > Why would your engine quit if your Facet pump failed ? Don't you > have an engine driven pump ? Most installations have both, on my > Kolb the engine does not quit when I turn the Facet pump off. > > Also, there is no advantage to installing a relay to control the > facet pump. There is not reason to try to "Isolate" the pump from > the rest of the electrical system. You only complicate the > electrical, and increase risk of a failure for absoluetly nothing. > The facet pump draws very little power and is not prone to > electrical failures. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184644#184644 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:05 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? Pretty innovative George. Just don't go huffin' and SUCKIN" heh heh I have the standard two fives in my MkIII. I have them top fed and valved for either/or If my second tank is half full I will go both on the TO trip and single on the return. I also carry a mechanical transfer pump just in case. At 2 1/2 GPH my 8 gallons usable gives me a decent range in the old tugboat. BB do not archive On 24, May 2008, at 3:40 PM, George Myers wrote: > > I decided to make one of these and ordered a facet pump. Since I > have an old > twinstar and only have a 5 gallon tank, bungee a 5 gal tank on the > boom tube > just in front of the H frame. Doubles my range. Knowing how I am, I > got to > worrying about what would happen if I left the pump running too > long and the > main tank overflowed. So I got to thinking what would be nice would > be to > pressurize the bottom tank a little at a time, forcing the gas into > the top > tank as needed. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, so I ran > a pickup > tube in through the cap using a grommet, and then a line from the > top of the > tank with a grommet & L to the front next to the seat and put a > cutoff valve > on it. Now after flying a while I just puff a lung full of air in > the tube & > shut the valve. So long as it holds pressure I know I still have > fuel in the > bottom tank. So long as I'm breathing I can transfer fuel. Works > great. > Didn't cost me a penny. I have a little mirror I strap on my wrist > as a fuel > gauge so when the tank gets down a gallon or two I go to huffin' & > puffin'. > If anybody's interested I'll post some pictures. > George > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R. Hankins > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 4:44 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? > > > George: > Here are some quick shots of my setup. I'll be using it to fly 356 > air > miles to the Rock House this Wednesday to meet up with John H, John > W, and > Larry and Karen Cottrell. > > -------- > Roger in Oregon > 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183894#183894 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080677_108.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080678_142.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080679_587.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080680_184.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080682_125.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1080683_157.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:58 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? > re: fuel pump relay.... call me quirky.> Guess I'm used to relays after m any years in the HVAC business.> My old (homemade) water source heat pump i s a Rube Goldberg heaven.> No flames at my house unless I light up the oxy acetylene.> water press switch, time delay relay for the fan, low temp rela y,> + stuff I can't remember. Cheaper than ignition based heat.> > BTW I'm living dangerously with the facet being my sole fuel supply.> Car engines s eem to lack mechanical pumps with the advent of FI> BB> do not archive> Bob, Car engines don't have mechanical fuel pumps anymore, because they use th ose scary, prone to failure, explosive & always spookey...in-tank fuel pump s. Oooooooooohhh!!!!! (ghost noises!) Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL in-ta nk fuel pumps....brushless motors. Ooooooh! (more ghost noises) Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft. ld ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:59 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar project At 11:58 AM 5/24/2008, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: >Someday you will wish you had more fuel capacity. >You will be as "legal" with ten gallon as you will be with five anyway >with a Kolb FS/KX/447. Bill's got it at or very close to 103 legal weight. And a 10 gallon tank is a much more obvious violation than a few pounds overweight. -Dana -- Please let me know if you did not receive this. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:39 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? From: Mike Welch Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL in-tank fuel pumps....brushless motors. Ooooooh! (more ghost noises) ........................... Mike, I cut open the one that came out of the tank on my 96 GMC Sonoma and the pump had brushes. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:14 PM PST US From: herb Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? Same here Jack...the motor, brushes and all was immersed in gasoline... Herb At 08:40 PM 5/24/2008, you wrote: > >From: Mike Welch >Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:22 -0700 > >Oh, btw, Facet uses the same style motor for their fuel pump as ALL >in-tank fuel pumps....brushless motors. Ooooooh! (more ghost noises) >........................... > >Mike, > >I cut open the one that came out of the tank on my 96 GMC Sonoma and the >pump had brushes. > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:31 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly landing leg reinforcement From: william sullivan Jack- Did you try the Firefly legs yet? do not archive Bill, I got a chance to fly late this afternoon. During taxiing, the ride is a little rougher than before. Noticed no difference in handling during a cross wind take off and landing. In watching the wheels, there is no outward flex of the leg. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:22 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? From: "JetPilot" George, I also thought about the possibility of overfilling the main tank in my Kolb with the AUX tank. If I every got really brain dead, and pumped my AUX fuel into my main tanks way to soon, the mains would overfill and go out the vent tube for my main tanks which exits the bottom of the plane. The worst that happens is I pump gas overboard at 4 bucks a gallon [Evil or Very Mad] Mark, The Facet pump is pretty darn reliable as long as you have a fuel filter in line before the pump. I would worry more about an electrical failure making that pump stop rather than the pump itself. What kind of engine do you have ? The engine driven fuel pump on the Rotax 447 trike that I fly only costs about 30 bucks. It would be cheap and easy to have both pumps on your plane which would keep your engine running in case a wire breaks or electrical power lost for some reason. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184697#184697 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:07 PM PST US From: "Frank Clyma" Subject: Kolb-List: Ethanol Ethanol laced fuel is now showing up in the greater Jacksonville FL area, at major brand stations. I got a positive "olive jar" test on Chevron last week----their pumps have been marked for several weeks now. Three days ago the "10% Ethanol" warning was put on the BP/Amoco pumps, although the gas still tests OK. I asked the attendant if they might leave the premium alone, and he said he haden't heard. I'd like to hear more about what people are using for fuel in the areas already effected. (In addition to the recent round of discussion on the subject.) Everybody is going to have to deal with this soon. Frank Clyma Jacksonville FL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.