---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/25/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - engine out...uh oh (Jimmy Young) 2. 05:46 AM - Acetone in Fuel (knowvne@aol.com) 3. 06:04 AM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (pj.ladd) 4. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (pj.ladd) 5. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (pj.ladd) 6. 07:41 AM - Re: engine out...uh oh (planecrazzzy) 7. 07:51 AM - Re: Acetone in Fuel (JetPilot) 8. 07:58 AM - Re: Acetone in Fuel (JetPilot) 9. 08:52 AM - Re: Acetone in Fuel (lucien) 10. 09:06 AM - Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (lucien) 11. 09:30 AM - Re: engine out...uh oh (robert bean) 12. 09:31 AM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (robert bean) 13. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? (neilsenrm@comcast.net) 14. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Acetone in Fuel (knowvne@aol.com) 15. 03:48 PM - Re: engine out...uh oh (Jimmy Young) 16. 07:15 PM - Re: [KolbUltrastar] Engine quit today, now to figure out why? (Dana Hague) 17. 09:22 PM - Re: engine out...uh oh (DAquaNut@aol.com) 18. 10:33 PM - Tragedy at Skinner Ranch, Jordan Valley, Oregon (Ken Korenek) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:48 AM PST US From: Jimmy Young Subject: Kolb-List: engine out...uh oh Kolbers, Yesterday I had an engine out forced landing after about 15 minutes into my flight. I was at about 1000 ft. and the engine started coughing a bit and dropped most of it's power. I made an uneventful off-field landing in a hayfield. It was my first engine out experience, and I will be the first to admit that once I landed and stopped, my thoughts were that any other good news is just a bonus. Your priorities will change rapidly depending on your situation. I called a friend who came out to pick me up, after a good walk through the country. I contacted the owner of the property and returned to stake her down and put a tarp over her. I'll be going out this morning to fold her up and haul her home for diagnosis. I'll update the List with my findings later. Jimmy Young FS II Houston TX ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:41 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Acetone in Fuel From: knowvne@aol.com Hi guys=C2- Have any of you tried putting acetone in the fuel? Here is some interesting info that allegedly improves gas Mileage in our car s... http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/ Mark -----Original Message----- From: Frank Clyma Sent: Sat, 24 May 2008 11:33 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Ethanol Ethanol laced fuel is now showing up in the greater Jacksonville FL area, at major brand stations. I got a positive "olive jar" test on Chevron last week----their pumps have been marked for several weeks now.=C2- Three days ago the "10% Ethanol" warning was put on the BP/Amoco pumps, although the gas still tests OK.=C2-I asked the attendant if they m ight leave the premium alone, and he said he haden't heard. =C2- I'd like to hear more=C2-about what people are=C2-using for fuel in the areas already effected.=C2- (In addition to the recent round of discussion on the subject.)=C2- Everybody is going to have to deal with this soon. =C2- Frank Clyma Jacksonville FL ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:55 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? The worst that happens is I pump gas overboard at 4 bucks a gallon >> I should waste it at 4 bucks a gallon before it gets to 8 bucks which it is over here Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:18 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? I have the standard two fives in my MkIII. I have them top fed and valved for either/or>> Hi Robert, Just curious. Why go to the extra complication. Why not have the pump draw all the time from both tanks. You will go just as far. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:12 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? Adding a third tank to this system just increases the chances that you will one day have a slight leak somewhere.>> Hi Mike, although in theory you are correct I think that sort of thinking is on a par with the idea that the way to make sure that there is no bomb on a plane you are flying in is to take one with you. The statistical chance of there being 2 bombs on board are so small that you can fly in safety. The same arguement would apply to having a bigger tank, a longer fuel line etc. The corollary is that the smaller tank you have the safer it is and you can see where that arguement leads. Surely the object of having extra fuel, in whatever form, larger tanks or extra tanks is to help ensure that you do NOT run out of fuel. Of course if you are the sort of idiot who regularly runs his tanks to the bottom then you will eventually come unstuck no matter how much fuel you carry. If you have a disastrous leak then the more little tanks you have the safer you will be .On the other hand according to you the more tanks you have the more likely you are to have a leak. I think I will walk Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: engine out...uh oh From: "planecrazzzy" Hi Jim, Glad to hear things turned out alright.... How many hours on the engine ? 503 ? .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN .. .. .. Jimmy Young wrote: > Kolbers, > > Yesterday I had an engine out forced landing after about 15 minutes > into my flight. I was at about 1000 ft. and the engine started > coughing a bit and dropped most of it's power. I made an uneventful > off-field landing in a hayfield. It was my first engine out experience, > Jimmy Young > FS II > Houston TX -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184740#184740 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:15 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acetone in Fuel From: "JetPilot" Putting acetone in fuel sounds like a REALLY BAD idea. I never put acetone in my fuel in my car, airplane, not even my lawn mower. Talk about something that could attack seals, fuel lines, plastic, etc. There is always someone that is willing to give bad advice. This reminds me of the guy that told me brother in law that a little brake fluid in his transmission would make it work like new, it took about 5 minutes to eat through the seals and spill all the fluid out on the ground under the car.. Although I agree acetone could improve fuel economy a lot when the engine quits and you do not burn any gas while replacing parts in the fuel system. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184741#184741 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:58 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acetone in Fuel From: "JetPilot" Here we go, the website Mark listed above has a link to this warning: *A note of extreme caution: Acetone is a very powerful solvent, and extremely corrosive to rubber. In fact, when the acetone hits a rubber fuel line, or o-rings, or any other rubber part coming into contact with the acetone, it will slowly be dissolved away. With continual corrosion of the rubber, it will eventually disintegrate, leading to extensive repairs of the fuel line, and a possibly worse if it happened while driving. When it all comes down to it, realize that you are using the acetone at your own consequence. I wonder how many people are going to run out and try this in their cars due to the article above, I expect Kolb and other airplane drivers will be much smarter than to try something like this. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184744#184744 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acetone in Fuel From: "lucien" Yeah, kinda have to agree with Mike here. It's generally not a good idea to put anything in an engine other that what is called for with it. That means, if it's supposed to take gas, put only gas in it. If it takes motor oil or 2-stroke oil, only put motor oil/2-stroke oil in it, and etc. Works for me. Our engines are designed to go all the way out to TBO with only the required fuels and oils anyway, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put any other stuff in it, in my view. Acetone is a great cleaner and degreaser, but probably a lousy fuel for a Rotax..... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184749#184749 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:33 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? From: "lucien" I had a transfer system on my ultralight years ago, it had a seat tank and I used an electric fuel pump from the car parts store to pump it up into the main root tube tank. I suppose I used it about 3 times before I got rid of it as all the extra tubing and keeping track of when to fill the main tank, etcl, started making me a bit nervous. I'm a kicking-around-the-patch type flyer anyway (probably part of the reason I like sailplane so much) and didn't have a need for really long-haul fuel reserves at the time, so I dismantled it. Otherwise, I'd have simply kept the seat tank as an auxiliary tank and had the pump draw out of both of them at the same time. So I'd say try to simply add another tank and put it in as part of the regular fuel supply and forgo the transfer dealie. I.e. John H and John W. have larger custom tanks in their planes for extra range (I believe without any transer type setup, correct me if I"m wrong) and that seems to be the best way to go IMO. For what it's worth, when I fly my titan home from Nebraska, I airport-hopped enough that I never started getting low on fuel with its 15 gal. tank. And that's feeding the 912uls. But I suppose in more remote areas that's not as much of an option so a bigger tank would be needed.... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184750#184750 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:08 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: engine out...uh oh Hey Jimmy, join the club. This morning I had a trip to a fly in b'fast cut short. In my case the push-in fitting on the carb decided to part ways with the top cover. (that guy will get threads now!) good news/bad news: this hay field was long alfalfa (bad news) The last few feet of the slide was with a good view of the hay out the windshield as the old Kolb tipped up on the nose. -lots of drag. Some cosmetic blems on the nosebowl, bent pitot assy. -and the aluminum tailwheel spring snapped off. A visual inspection revealed that an old fracture at that point, just where it emerges from the steel receiver tube. A generous neighbor and new friend gave me a lift back to my car and tools. I stuck the spring back in, drilled one hole, shortened the chains and flew it back out of a soft, bumpy cornfield. It took about 40 bounces to get the right levitation. 15 minutes round trip. No breakfast. On 25, May 2008, at 7:26 AM, Jimmy Young wrote: > > Kolbers, > > Yesterday I had an engine out forced landing after about 15 minutes > into my flight. I was at about 1000 ft. and the engine started > coughing a bit and dropped most of it's power. I made an uneventful > off-field landing in a hayfield. It was my first engine out > experience, and I will be the first to admit that once I landed and > stopped, my thoughts were that any other good news is just a bonus. > Your priorities will change rapidly depending on your situation. > > I called a friend who came out to pick me up, after a good walk > through the country. I contacted the owner of the property and > returned to stake her down and put a tarp over her. I'll be going > out this morning to fold her up and haul her home for diagnosis. > I'll update the List with my findings later. > > Jimmy Young > FS II > Houston TX > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:55 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? If I have both full. Sometimes I have just one full for local flights and valve off the the other. On 25, May 2008, at 9:21 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > > I have the standard two fives in my MkIII. I have them top fed and > valved for either/or>> > > Hi Robert, Just curious. Why go to the extra complication. Why not > have the pump draw all the time from both tanks. You will go just > as far. > > Cheers > > Pat > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:01 PM PST US From: neilsenrm@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tansfer pump Ideas? I use a aux fuel tank in my airplane quite a bit and have for some years. The tank is almost exactly like Steven Green's aux tank. I might have copied the idea from him. A larger main tank would be better and safer if I was flying cross country more. The aux tank extends my range from 2.5 hours with no reserve 1.5 hours with my personal reserve to 4 hours or 3 hours with my personal reserve. The aux tank uses a simple top drain with a dip tube. I pump the fuel from the aux tank to the top of my main tanks as soon as I can on a long flight. The first transfer will be when I'm only down a few gallons and will continue every half hour till the aux tank is empty. I like to transfer early to keep my options open. If there is any problem with fuel transfer I want it to happen when I have the most fuel. I can safely drain the aux tank down to empty. I can remove this tank if necessary to retrive more fuel. I use the standard two 5 gallon main tanks and draw from the bottom. In ten years I have never had a leak. Three years ago I replaced to old tanks because I felt it was time. I like the idea of a bottom drain due to its simplicity. The drain always pulls fuel from the same level in the tank from the low spot on opposite sides from the other tank. If in turblance there is a momentary entry of air in the system it isn't a problem. With a top drain sucks air at best it would cause a potential pressure drop till the siphon action is restored. In the worst cases you might have a fuel flow stoppage from one tank or maybe even both tanks. If I were feeding fuel from the top I would have a selector valve and feed from only one tank at a time. This adds a point of failure from forgetting to switch tanks but the it would be less of a concern than unknownly having a one tank feed stoppage. my .02 worth Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC -------------- Original message -------------- From: "lucien" > > I had a transfer system on my ultralight years ago, it had a seat tank and I > used an electric fuel pump from the car parts store to pump it up into the main > root tube tank. > > I suppose I used it about 3 times before I got rid of it as all the extra tubing > and keeping track of when to fill the main tank, etcl, started making me a bit > nervous. > > I'm a kicking-around-the-patch type flyer anyway (probably part of the reason I > like sailplane so much) and didn't have a need for really long-haul fuel > reserves at the time, so I dismantled it. > > Otherwise, I'd have simply kept the seat tank as an auxiliary tank and had the > pump draw out of both of them at the same time. > > So I'd say try to simply add another tank and put it in as part of the regular > fuel supply and forgo the transfer dealie. I.e. John H and John W. have larger > custom tanks in their planes for extra range (I believe without any transer type > setup, correct me if I"m wrong) and that seems to be the best way to go IMO. > > For what it's worth, when I fly my titan home from Nebraska, I airport-hopped > enough that I never started getting low on fuel with its 15 gal. tank. And > that's feeding the 912uls. > But I suppose in more remote areas that's not as much of an option so a bigger > tank would be needed.... > > LS > > -------- > LS > FS II > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184750#184750 > > > > > > > > > >
I use a aux fuel tank in my airplane quite a bit and have for some years. The tank is almost exactly like Steven Green's aux tank. I might have copied the idea from him. A larger main tank would be better and safer if I was flying cross country more. The aux tank extends my range from 2.5 hours with no reserve 1.5 hours with my personal reserve to 4 hours or 3 hours with my personal reserve. The aux tank uses a simple top drain with a dip tube. I pump the fuel from the aux tank to the top of my main tanks as soon as I can on a long flight. The first transfer will be when I'm only down a few gallons and will continue every half hour till the aux tank is empty. I like to transfer early to keep my options open. If there is any problem with fuel transfer I want it to happen when I have the most fuel. I can safely drain the aux tank down to empty. I can remove this tank if necessary to retrive more fuel.
 
I use the standard two 5 gallon main tanks and draw from the bottom. In ten years I have never had a leak. Three years ago I replaced to old tanks because I felt it was time. I like the idea of a bottom drain due to its simplicity. The drain always pulls fuel from the same level in the tank from the low spot on opposite sides from the other tank. If in turblance there is a momentary entry of air in the system it isn't a problem. With a top drain sucks air at best it would cause a potential pressure drop till the siphon action is restored. In the worst cases you might have a fuel flow stoppage from one tank or maybe even both tanks. If I were feeding fuel from the top I would have a selector valve and feed from only one tank at a time. This adds a point of failure from forgetting to switch tanks but the it would be less of a concern than unknownly having a one tank feed stoppage.
 
my .02 worth
 
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>

> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien"
>
> I had a transfer system on my ultralight years ago, it had a seat tank and I
> used an electric fuel pump from the car parts store to pump it up into the main
> root tube tank.
>
> I suppose I used it about 3 times before I got rid of it as all the extra tubing
> and keeping track of when to fill the main tank, etcl, started making me a bit
> nervous.
>
> I'm a kicking-around-the-patch type flyer anyway (probably part of the reason I
> like sailplane so much) and didn't have a need for really long-haul fuel
> reserves at the time, so I dismantled it.
>
> Otherwise, I'd have simply kept the seat tank as an auxi liary tank and had the
> pump draw out of both of them at the same time.
>
> So I'd say try to simply add another tank and put it in as part of the regular
> fuel supply and forgo the transfer dealie. I.e. John H and John W. have larger
> custom tanks in their planes for extra range (I believe without any transer type
> setup, correct me if I"m wrong) and that seems to be the best way to go IMO.
>
> For what it's worth, when I fly my titan home from Nebraska, I airport-hopped
> enough that I never started getting low on fuel with its 15 gal. tank. And
> that's feeding the 912uls.
> But I suppose in more remote areas that's not as much of an option so a bigger
> tank would be needed....
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> FS II
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184750 #18475 ===== ======================================================
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Acetone in Fuel From: knowvne@aol.com Hi Mike Yes I would have to agree with you.. I wasn't endorsing the use of the stuff as an additive=C2- =C2-but I thought it was an interesting=C2-article given the direction f uel prices are going these days... Personally I think Gas is cheaper than truck repairs... =C2- At least for right now anyway hahahahaha 8-) BTW =C2-those E trikes=C2-ARE starting to look better and better... 8-( Mark -----Original Message----- From: JetPilot Sent: Sun, 25 May 2008 10:48 am Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Acetone in Fuel Putting acetone in fuel sounds like a REALLY BAD idea. I never put acetone in my fuel in my car, airplane, not even my lawn mower. Talk about something t hat could attack seals, fuel lines, plastic, etc. There is always someone that is willing to give bad advice. This reminds me of the guy that told me brother in law that a little brake fluid in his transmission would make it work like ne w, it took about 5 minutes to eat through the seals and spill all the fluid out on the ground under the car.. Although I agree acetone could improve fuel economy a lot when the engine qu its and you do not burn any gas while replacing parts in the fuel system. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you cou ld have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184741#184741 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:59 PM PST US From: Jimmy Young Subject: Kolb-List: Re: engine out...uh oh All, I spent all day getting my plane out of the field and back to the hanger with the help of a good friend. When I got there this morning, I changed out the plugs to see if it would turn over & run. It fired up after some coaxing, but it was not running well at all. I watched the engine temps and within less than a minute it was obvious the #1 cyl is not running. I shut it down and proceeded to move on with the task of transporting her home. Tomorrow I'll see if I can figure out what happened. For planecrazy; you asked how many hrs. on the engine: it's a 503 DCDI with 205 hrs. I checked the rings thru the exhaust ports at 175 hrs, and they were fairly clean and moving freely. I plan to check for spark at the plugs tomorrow and move on from there. I did look at the carb bowls out in the field, both were full of clean gas, no water or visible contamination. The #2 cyl plugs looked good, nice tan color, but the #1 cyl plugs were a darkish metallic grey color, not wet or oily, but a color indicative of either no ignition or way too rich. Jimmy Young FS II Houston ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:20 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Kolb-List: RE: [KolbUltrastar] Engine quit today, now to figure out why? Well, I flew it today for about 45 minutes, first time since the failure. Ran it on the ground for awhile at various throttle settings, no trouble, then took off, climbed to around 300' and flew around for awhile (within gliding distance of the field, of course!). Not a bobble from the engine. CHT and EGT both where they should be. It's looking like the float needle was indeed bad and probably caused at least the quitting when at low rpm's and perhaps the drop from cruise rpm as well. Somebody suggested that could've been icing, if it iced up at the main jet/needle where the fuel is atomizing and coldest, it could be sudden, much more so than icing on the butterfly of a standard carb. Certainly I'll keep a close eye on it for the next few flights, though... On a sorta related note, afterwards I went for a ride in a friend's new Aircam. What a neat airplane! It just LEAPS off the ground, 'bout 100' takeoff roll... you can take off and fly all day on one engine, so cruising around low over the forest is no worries... if the engine quits there's a spare! :) -Dana -- But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:41 PM PST US From: DAquaNut@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: engine out...uh oh In a message dated 5/25/2008 6:31:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jdy100@comcast.net writes: Kolbers, Yesterday I had an engine out forced landing after about 15 minutes into my flight. Jimmy, So glad to hear you were up to the task at hand, and you had a suitable spot to land and those great big tires on her! I will be at the hanger in the next couple of days. Glad You and your bird are OK! Ed Diebel **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:00 PM PST US From: "Ken Korenek" Subject: Kolb-List: Tragedy at Skinner Ranch, Jordan Valley, Oregon Kolbers, It is with a heavy heart that I must inform you that John Williamson, Kolb Kolbra, N49KK crashed and was killed just before 10 AM local time, Sunday, May 25th at the Skinner Ranch Airport (12OR), Jordan Valley, Oregon. (Skyvector Link: http://skyvector.com/#35-9-3-5601-1393) >From information relayed from the remote area by the investigating Sherriff, John was flying with two other airplanes. The other two planes landed and were going to take pictures as John did a fly-by. As he flew by in a sharp bank, something happened and he went down. It is almost certain that he did not suffer. All this information is very preliminary and the only thing certain is that we lost a friend. I am John's flying buddy here in Arlington and am trying my best to help the family thru this tragedy. I was unaware of who was accompanying John after the Monument Valley weekend, so if any of you know who the other two planes and pilots might be, please relay any contact information you may have to me. I will keep you all posted as new information presents itself and will advise you of funeral arrangements when they are final. John was a really good guy and I am going to miss him. Ken Korenek Arlington, Texas 817-657-6500 cell 817-483-8054 home 972-641-5029 work kkorenek@tx.rr.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.