---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/18/08: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:08 AM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (pj.ladd) 2. 02:24 AM - Re: Re: William Sullivan accident (pj.ladd) 3. 02:40 AM - Re: Re: William Sullivan accident (pj.ladd) 4. 04:10 AM - Re: gas (Thom Riddle) 5. 05:49 AM - Kolb Twinstar MK II for sale (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?No=EBl_Bouchard?=) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: gas (JetPilot) 7. 07:44 AM - Re: gas (Thom Riddle) 8. 07:56 AM - Re: William Sullivan accident (JetPilot) 9. 11:43 AM - William Sullivans Accident (william sullivan) 10. 01:19 PM - Re: William Sullivan accident (planecrazzzy) 11. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: gas (boyd) 12. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: William Sullivan accident (robert bean) 13. 03:34 PM - Re: William Sullivans Accident (Dana Hague) 14. 03:48 PM - Re: William Sullivans Accident (David Key) 15. 04:29 PM - Re: William Sullivans Accident (Dana Hague) 16. 04:57 PM - Crow Hopping -- was WSullivan's accident (Ben Ransom) 17. 05:57 PM - Un-gusts (David Key) 18. 06:05 PM - Re: Crow Hopping -- was WSullivan's accident (lucien) 19. 06:17 PM - Re: William Sullivans Accident (Russ Kinne) 20. 06:26 PM - Re: Un-gusts (Russ Kinne) 21. 06:33 PM - Re: William Sullivans Accident (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 22. 06:49 PM - Re: Un-gusts (Dana Hague) 23. 07:05 PM - Re: Un-gusts (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 24. 07:17 PM - Re: William Sullivans Accident (The BaronVonEvil) 25. 07:25 PM - William Sullivans Accident (possums) 26. 07:34 PM - Re: Un-gusts (Dana Hague) 27. 08:56 PM - Re: Un-gusts (possums) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:59 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle and Pat, I think that is the > first time I've ever been told I look better than an old codger>> Waaaaaay better! Better than most of the young codgers too. Pat :-) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:41 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: William Sullivan accident FIRST FLIGHT.... Your supposed to go above the airstrip 2000 ft or so... and APPROACH a STALL.....>> Planecrazy.. you gotta be kidding. Here is a guy with minimum training who thinks he is doing a fast taxi with nothing more in his mind but keeping sraight and holding the tail up. A puff of wind and he suddenly finds himself at 20 feet. The only thing in his mind is `How the hell did I get up here and how do I get down?" The natural reaction is to close the throttle and we all know where that leads if the the nose is not put down at the same time. I think he did damn well to go on flying the plane and do a circuit while he sorted things out. The fact that his landing finished up so disastrously was sheer hard luck. How many of us made a good landing on a first solo even fully trained and EXPECTING to fly. Given just a smidgeon of good luck he may well have got away with it. You are perfectly right of course. All those things which you list are absolutely correct, but to expect a tyro, taken by surprise to carry them out is just a bit much. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:24 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: William Sullivan accident there were other ultralight pilots around to explain things to the reporters and police>> Hi Dana, I have learned from bitter experience that no reporter is interested in facts. The story, written up to be as exciting as possible is everything. When I was Secretary of my local gliding club I got fed up with every outlanding being written up as a `crash landing`, or `Glider runs out of wind`. I contacted the Editors of all local papers etc.,gave them my contact numbers so that any story could be checked. No one ever checked.. When I crashed my hang glider, on my first flight, and broke my leg it was the same. Admittedly the scene was pretty spectacular with the local fire brigade and an ambulance, both with lights flashing busily employed carrying me out from a field about a mile from the road but from the story in the local press you would have thought that Concorde had ploughed in with a full load of passengers. Someone said that a journalist is a man who would rather write 20 thousand words rather than check one fact. You better believe it. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: gas From: "Thom Riddle" Mike, I use an olive jar too. But when I find gas with alcohol in it the phase separation line goes up compared to the plain water level, not down. The reason for this is that the water extracts the alcohol from the gas not the other way around as you stated. So if alcohol is present in the gasoline sample the phase separation line moves up in the jar. See following from EAA website on the subject: EAA's auto fuel Alcohol Test Kit allows a pilot or aircraft maintenance technician to make preventative tests on auto fuel, even before fuel is purchased for an aircraft. Simply pour water, then auto fuel, in the included test tube and shake it to mix the contents. When the mixture has settled within five to 10 minutes, a gauge on the test tube indicates whether the water level has risen. An increase in the amount of water on the gauge indicates that alcohol is present in the fuel. The gauge will also indicate the percentage of alcohol. EAA's kit is simpler than previous tests, as much less fuel is used to make a determination. -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. - Bertrand Russell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188445#188445 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:47 AM PST US From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?No=EBl_Bouchard?= Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar MK II for sale Hello Kolber, I have decided to sell my beloved Benedicte ... She is a Kolb Twinstar MK II Rotax 503 Built in 1990, New Wings / elevators covering in 2002 The frame has around 600 Hrs and the 503 has something like 150 Hours since last full rebuilt 2 years ago. The plane is in Montreal Canada I am asking $8000 Firm. For more info please email directly to: noel@teledata.qc.ca Best ... Noel ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:41 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: gas From: "JetPilot" You are correct Tom. Fortunately, I have not had any positive results for ethanol in BP premium yet, but there was alcohol in the fuel the level of the water would increase, not decrease. In the end, if I found any evidence if mixing, I would not use the gas. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188470#188470 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: gas From: "Thom Riddle" Mike, If you have a Sunoco station in your area you can see what it actually looks like in your olive jar test tube by sampling their gas. I think they have been lacing their gasoline (all grades) with ethanol for decades. It is the only one around here that I know for sure has ethanol. No problem yet to date finding other brands without it, even the 87 octane I use. do not archive -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. - Bertrand Russell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188474#188474 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:38 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: William Sullivan accident From: "JetPilot" Sorry to hear of Williams accident... I have to agree with Pat on this one, the theory and what you should do is very easy and makes perfect sense on the ground. When someone gets into the air for the first time in a very different airplane like a Kolb, it becomes a matter of just reacting to what is happening at the moment... Most people get so overwhelmed in this situation that calm intelligent analysis of the situation just is not going to happen. William, Don't let this scare you to bad, it would have happened to just about anyone with your experience level. Everyone I take up in my MK III tries to slow and flare very high, they would all stall and damage the airplane if I did not shove the stick forward for them on the first few landings. No matter how much we talk about not flaring to high and not letting the plane slow down, they all make the same mistake until they see and try a couple landings for themselves. Get some hours of training next time and it will be easy for you. Flying a Kolb is very different from a Cessna, but it is easy once you get a couple hours and are used to the different characteristics. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188475#188475 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:35 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and started to cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. That is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wife says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about 2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife. People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as there WERE gusts from time to time. Written by William T. Sullivan, Typed by Norma J. Sullivan Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: William Sullivan accident From: "planecrazzzy" Hi Pat, If he would have done his homework....He would have known that "THESE" planes will get airborne on ya.... "I" had to Taxi in front of my DAR....Per instructions of my FAA principal inspector .... I told them , I will only taxi slow... I didn't have my Tailwheel endorsement or my 5 hrs in a "Like" aircraft and I told them that other people have found themselves in the air... You gotta ask yerself "What IF"..especially in our little world of flying... Instead of thinking , Oh it probably won't happen to "ME"... .. .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN .. .. .. pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > FIRST FLIGHT.... > > Your supposed to go above the airstrip 2000 ft or so... > > and APPROACH a STALL.....>> > > Planecrazy.. you gotta be kidding. Here is a guy with minimum training who > thinks he is doing a fast taxi with nothing more in his mind but keeping > sraight and holding the tail up. A puff of wind and he suddenly finds > himself at 20 feet. The only thing in his mind is `How the hell did I get > up here and how do I get down?" > The natural reaction is to close the throttle and we all know where that > leads if the the nose is not put down at the same time. I think he did damn > well to go on flying the plane and do a circuit while he sorted things out. > The fact that his landing finished up so disastrously was sheer hard luck. > How many of us made a good landing on a first solo even fully trained and > EXPECTING to fly. Given just a smidgeon of good luck he may well have got > away with it. > > You are perfectly right of course. All those things which you list are > absolutely correct, but to expect a tyro, taken by surprise to carry them > out is just a bit much. > > Cheers > > Pat -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188502#188502 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_metal__front_spar_connectors_003_663.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_metal__lift_strut_brackets_002_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_tips__in_space_001_151.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:00 PM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: gas If the water level is lower than your line, or gone all together after mixing with the gas and shaking the jar, then it indicates that the gas has alcohol in it ( ethanol) [Evil or Very Mad] Alcohol mixes with water and enables the water to mix with the gas making your water level go down or disappear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well now this test will work depending on the amounts of water and gas in percents........ If you put in 50% water and 50%gas... then shake it up... the alcohol will come out of the gas,,,, and the apparent water level will have increased. 90% gas and 10% water will work as you have described.... provided there is no water mixed with the gas already. With one test showing more water and the other showing less.... there is probably one mix somewhere in the middle percentages that would show no change. Best make sure which side of the curve you are testing. I like the 50 50 test. Boyd Young MkIII C 525+ hours and counting. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:24 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: William Sullivan accident That is an example of what I consider the weakness in the DAR method. -A lack of uniformity. Looks to me that it is up to the whims of each and every inspector as to what is required. My inspection was done by a genyoowine FAA guy and he didn't even want to hear the engine run. Makes sense, if it doesn't run , it's a safe airplane. :o) In my case a fast taxi wouldn't have been much threat. That overweight tugboat needs the goodyear blimp to help it separate from the ground. BB, expert in descent do not archive On 18, Jun 2008, at 4:16 PM, planecrazzzy wrote: > > > Hi Pat, > If he would have done his homework....He would have known > that "THESE" planes will get airborne on ya.... > > "I" had to Taxi in front of my DAR....Per instructions of my FAA > principal inspector .... I told them , I will only taxi slow... > > I didn't have my Tailwheel endorsement or my 5 hrs in a "Like" > aircraft > and I told them that other people have found themselves in the air... > > You gotta ask yerself "What IF"..especially in our little world > of flying... > > Instead of thinking , Oh it probably won't happen to "ME"... > . > . > . > > Gotta Fly... > Mike & "Jaz" in MN > . > . > . > > > pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: >> FIRST FLIGHT.... >> >> Your supposed to go above the airstrip 2000 ft or so... >> >> and APPROACH a STALL.....>> >> >> Planecrazy.. you gotta be kidding. Here is a guy with minimum >> training who >> thinks he is doing a fast taxi with nothing more in his mind but >> keeping >> sraight and holding the tail up. A puff of wind and he suddenly finds >> himself at 20 feet. The only thing in his mind is `How the hell >> did I get >> up here and how do I get down?" >> The natural reaction is to close the throttle and we all know >> where that >> leads if the the nose is not put down at the same time. I think >> he did damn >> well to go on flying the plane and do a circuit while he sorted >> things out. >> The fact that his landing finished up so disastrously was sheer >> hard luck. >> How many of us made a good landing on a first solo even fully >> trained and >> EXPECTING to fly. Given just a smidgeon of good luck he may well >> have got >> away with it. >> >> You are perfectly right of course. All those things which you list >> are >> absolutely correct, but to expect a tyro, taken by surprise to >> carry them >> out is just a bit much. >> >> Cheers >> >> Pat > > > -------- > . > . > . > . > . > Do Not Archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188502#188502 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > wing_metal__front_spar_connectors_003_663.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ > wing_metal__lift_strut_brackets_002_109.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_tips__in_space_001_151.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:34 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident Bill, First, I'm glad you're OK (more or less). Bad as it was, it could have been a lot worse! Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdrafts at 15'. What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can quickly reduce your airspeed from something above stall to below stall... and you drop. This may have been what happened. I the aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less likely to be a problem. However, if you're approaching at 35 mph in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un-gust... well, you get the picture. Add to this the inoperative ASI, the tendency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse. That's why in an ultralight you don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to the perspective of a pilot with GA experience) you literally DIVE the plane at the runway. Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together. -Dana At 02:40 PM 6/18/2008, william sullivan wrote: >I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the >news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what >happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to >slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and >considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list >about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither >was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it >had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the >advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been >turned to the right, so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and >gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled >around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the >climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at 4000rpm. I >flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and started to cut power. I put >the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. That is all I remember, >but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wife says it looked like >a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, >cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about >2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife. >People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as there >WERE gusts from time to time. > >Written by William T. Sullivan, >Typed by Norma J. Sullivan > > >Do not archive > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -- When Columbus came to America, there were no taxes, no debts, and no pollution. The women did all the work while the men hunted or fished all day. Ever since then, a bunch of idiotic do-gooders have been trying to "improve" the place. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:38 PM PST US From: David Key Subject: RE: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!! ague@comcast.netSubject: Re: Kolb-List: William Sullivans AccidentBill,Firs t, I'm glad you're OK (more or less). Bad as it was, it could have been a lot worse!Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdraft s at 15'. What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can quickly r educe your airspeed from something above stall to below stall... and you dr op. This may have been what happened. I the aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less likely to be a problem. However, if you're appr oaching at 35 mph in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un -gust... well, you get the picture. Add to this the inoperative ASI, the t endency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse. That's why in an ultralight yo u don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to the perspective of a pi lot with GA experience) you literally DIVE the plane at the runway.Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together.-DanaAt 02:40 PM 6/18/2008 , william sullivan wrote: I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the engine to slow the plan e down. I was concerned about stopping distances, and considering brakes an d stronger legs. (see previous posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, so I couldn't ju st put it down! I got it straight and gradually climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the climb rate gradual. The second pass was very g ood, again at 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and start ed to cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. T hat is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way down. My wif e says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane into the ground, buckli ng one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and flipping over. Last thing I remembe r was just about 2 feet off the ground, looking good. I got the rest from m y wife.People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as t here WERE gusts from time to time. Written by William T. Sullivan,Typed by Norma J. Sullivan Do not archive Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com ; - List Contribution Web Site - ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- When Columbus came to America, there were no taxes, no debts, and no pol lution. The women did all the work while the men hunted or fished all day. Ever since then, a bunch of idiotic do-gooders have been trying to "impro ve" the place. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:10 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: RE: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident At 06:46 PM 6/18/2008, David Key wrote: >I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!! What's so funny? Sailors have spoken of "non puffs" for years. It's a sudden, brief, lull in an otherwise steady wind. -Dana -- Please let me know if you did not receive this. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:09 PM PST US From: Ben Ransom Subject: Kolb-List: Crow Hopping -- was WSullivan's accident Although it's as old as Seafoam discussions, I dare post my own opinion again on "crow hopping". It's probably 10 years, so what the heck, here it is. I am a proponent of them, in ultralights, if done after dual training in a like aircraft. Crow hopping has two key pieces: Foremost is getting there in baby steps. Second, keep a mindset of very minor throttle changes, whether they be increase or decrease in rpm, and similarly, stay with minimal stick pitch changes. And I'm talking dual here!! I had 4.5 hours of transition training in a 2-place phantom many years ago. Most of that was crow hops, which started out as taxi, then fast taxi, etc. By hour 3 I would go down the runway just at flying speed, jockeying all 4 control inputs as needed. Important too, no wind until I was pretty good at it. I did a lot of flight with wheels 0 to 2ft AGL. No sudden moves, no surprises. Guess what, I got darn good at controlling the plane in that configuration, even adding in wind. When it came time to test fly my never before flown Firestar, I was confident of being able to handle transition issues near the ground. I'm posting just for the record that there are at least some (or at least one ;) ) who maintain that learning crow hopping properly is a good thing. Flying at altitude -- that's a lot simpler, and should be optional. -Ben/ KXP ps: All the best to you William -- get well soon. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:49 PM PST US From: David Key Subject: Kolb-List: Un-gusts Here are some phrases and terms I haven't figured out yet but I don=92t nee d an explanation to. What is concerning is that I've seen them applied to a ccident scenarios on this list. "kolb drop", "the air went away", and "un-gusts" I know being a pilot has the built in responsibility of always learning but in these cases I think it could work against you. Un-Gusts LOL!! I'm still cracking up. What's next, un-lift, my plane hit some un-lift and well as y ou can understand I was screwed. At some point someone has to call fiction fiction and made up made up and bull bull. If it's only to maintain some ki nd of integrity to this list, the phrases and terms used for years and to p revent new pilots from a total state of confusion. You know there is someon e out there thinking =93kolb-drop=94, =93un-gusts=94 I don=92t understand t his=85 (and you shouldn=92t) Have you ever heard this=85 "the forecast calls for ceilings two thousand b roken and winds 180 @ 16 un-gusts to 21" of course you haven=92t and you w on=92t. Have you ever heard the tower say =93use caution we=92ve had report s of un-gusts 2 miles off of 18=85=94 me neither and I won=92t. Have you ev er read in an FAA accident report that the plane went down due to un-gusts? Well your not going to. But you don=92t have to believe me, call a briefer and tell them you were c oncerned about un-gusts along your route and ask him if he can recommend a alternate route around the un-gusts. Then ponder this answer, =93well it=92 s defiantly gustier to the North so I=92d say you should go there I expect much less un-gusting there.=94 The weather was pleasant in Texas today there were un-tornados, un-rain and un-wind all day long, un-fortunately it was very un-cold. Would there be un-gusts if there weren=92t gusts and there wasn=92t someone there to fly in it? ague@comcast.netSubject: RE: Kolb-List: William Sullivans AccidentAt 06:46 PM 6/18/2008, David Key wrote: I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!!What's so funny? Sailors have spoken of "non puffs" for years. It's a sudden, br ief, lull in an otherwise steady wind.-Dana -- Please let me know if you did not receive this. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Crow Hopping -- was WSullivan's accident From: "lucien" bransom(at)ucdavis.edu wrote: > Although it's as old as Seafoam discussions, I dare post my own opinion > again on "crow hopping". It's probably 10 years, so what the heck, here > it is. I am a proponent of them, in ultralights, if done after dual > training in a like aircraft. > > Crow hopping has two key pieces: Foremost is getting there in baby > steps. Second, keep a mindset of very minor throttle changes, whether > they be increase or decrease in rpm, and similarly, stay with minimal > stick pitch changes. And I'm talking dual here!! > > I had 4.5 hours of transition training in a 2-place phantom many years > ago. Most of that was crow hops, which started out as taxi, then fast > taxi, etc. By hour 3 I would go down the runway just at flying speed, > jockeying all 4 control inputs as needed. Important too, no wind until > I was pretty good at it. I did a lot of flight with wheels 0 to 2ft > AGL. No sudden moves, no surprises. Guess what, I got darn good at > controlling the plane in that configuration, even adding in wind. When > it came time to test fly my never before flown Firestar, I was confident > of being able to handle transition issues near the ground. > > I'm posting just for the record that there are at least some (or at > least one ;) ) who maintain that learning crow hopping properly is a > good thing. Flying at altitude -- that's a lot simpler, and should be > optional. > > -Ben/ KXP > > ps: All the best to you William -- get well soon. I'll add my .02 on crow-hopping, mostly because it deceptively gets pilots in trouble..... In my experience, the crow hop is actually a pretty advanced maneuver and one that requires pretty intimate familiarity with the plane, more so than simply blasting off and landing normally. So I think it should be done only after some time in normal flight modes in the plane has been accumulated. I'll never tell why I know this, so don't ask.... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188542#188542 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:06 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident Two friends of mine were killed by an "ungust". to explain - Pilot was hot-dogging, 'chopping cotton' very low, pulled up sharply and the gust that was keeping them aloft just stopped. Dove in from about 100' Citabria. Showing off has NO place in sensible aviation do not archive On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:46 PM, David Key wrote: > I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!! > > > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:27:45 -0400 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > From: d-m-hague@comcast.net > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident > > Bill, > > First, I'm glad you're OK (more or less). Bad as it was, it could > have been a lot worse! > > Unless you're in rotor behind obstacles, you won't find downdrafts > at 15'. What you _will_ find is gusts or "un gusts", which can > quickly reduce your airspeed from something above stall to below > stall... and you drop. This may have been what happened. I the > aircraft you previously flew, the higher stall speed means such an > effect is a smaller percentage of the stall speed, so it's less > likely to be a problem. However, if you're approaching at 35 mph > in an airplane that stalls at 30, and you get a 10 mph un-gust... > well, you get the picture. Add to this the inoperative ASI, the > tendency of the plane to pitch up when you reduce power and the low > inertia of such a light plane, and it's even worse. That's why in > an ultralight you don't just "fly the plane to the ground", but (to > the perspective of a pilot with GA experience) you literally DIVE > the plane at the runway. > > Anyway, I hope you recover soon, and get to work rebuilding or > shopping for another or whatever makes sense, so we can fly together. > > -Dana > > At 02:40 PM 6/18/2008, william sullivan wrote: > I appreciate everyone's comments and sympathies. Seems like all of > the news reports and rumors have been wrong. Funny, nobody asked ME > what happened. I was doing taxi runs up to 2700rpm and killing the > engine to slow the plane down. I was concerned about stopping > distances, and considering brakes and stronger legs. (see previous > posts to the list about L.G. leg diameters) The Firestar was NOT > ready to fly, and neither was I. A gust of wind lifted the plane > near the end of the runway. If it had stayed down, I could have > stopped it with no problem. Following the advice of club members, I > went to WOT to go around. The plane had been turned to the right, > so I couldn't just put it down! I got it straight and gradually > climbed to 750 AGL. The ASI did not work at all. I circled around > to make a low pass over the runway, keeping the at 4000, and the > climb rate gradual. The second pass was very good, again at > 4000rpm. I flew down to within 10-15' of the ground and started to > cut power. I put the stick froward to compensate for The power cut. > That is all I remember, but my intent was to fly it all the way > down. My wife says it looked like a down draft pushed the plane > into the ground, buckling one L.G. leg, cartwheeling twice and > flipping over. Last thing I remember was just about 2 feet off the > ground, looking good. I got the rest from my wife. > People who say there was no wind that afternoon were NOT there, as > there WERE gusts from time to time. > > Written by William T. Sullivan, > Typed by Norma J. Sullivan > > > Do not archive > > Email Forum - > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ; > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > http://forums.matronics.com > ; > - List Contribution Web Site - > ; > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > -- > When Columbus came to America, there were no taxes, no debts, and > no pollution. The women did all the work while the men hunted or > fished all day. Ever since then, a bunch of idiotic do-gooders > have been trying to "improve" the place. > get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:14 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Un-gusts This is just semantics! -- we all know what they mean by an "un- gust" (though I'd never heard it before). If it confuses a new pilot, he needs more instruction. Okay, better to say "the gust stopped", or "quit", but we all know what was meant. do not archive On Jun 18, 2008, at 8:55 PM, David Key wrote: > Here are some phrases and terms I haven't figured out yet but I > don=92t need an explanation to. What is concerning is that I've seen > them applied to accident scenarios on this list. > > "kolb drop", "the air went away", and "un-gusts" > > I know being a pilot has the built in responsibility of always > learning but in these cases I think it could work against you. Un- > Gusts LOL!! I'm still cracking up. What's next, un-lift, my plane > hit some un-lift and well as you can understand I was screwed. At > some point someone has to call fiction fiction and made up made up > and bull bull. If it's only to maintain some kind of integrity to > this list, the phrases and terms used for years and to prevent new > pilots from a total state of confusion. You know there is someone > out there thinking =93kolb-drop=94, =93un-gusts=94 I don=92t understand this=85 > (and you shouldn=92t) > > Have you ever heard this=85 "the forecast calls for ceilings two > thousand broken and winds 180 @ 16 un-gusts to 21" of course you > haven=92t and you won=92t. Have you ever heard the tower say =93use > caution we=92ve had reports of un-gusts 2 miles off of 18=85=94 me > neither and I won=92t. Have you ever read in an FAA accident report > that the plane went down due to un-gusts? Well your not going to. > > But you don=92t have to believe me, call a briefer and tell them you > were concerned about un-gusts along your route and ask him if he > can recommend a alternate route around the un-gusts. Then ponder > this answer, =93well it=92s defiantly gustier to the North so I=92d say > you should go there I expect much less un-gusting there.=94 > > The weather was pleasant in Texas today there were un-tornados, un- > rain and un-wind all day long, un-fortunately it was very un-cold. > > Would there be un-gusts if there weren=92t gusts and there wasn=92t > someone there to fly in it? > > > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:24:23 -0400 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > From: d-m-hague@comcast.net > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident > > At 06:46 PM 6/18/2008, David Key wrote: > I thought I'd heard everything now I'm hearing about un-gusts? LOL!! > > What's so funny? Sailors have spoken of "non puffs" for years. > It's a sudden, brief, lull in an otherwise steady wind. > > -Dana > > > -- > Please let me know if you did not receive this. > get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:05 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident you literally DIVE the plane at the runway. You see this VIC Remember it Ellery in Maine do not archive In a message dated 6/18/2008 6:35:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, d-m-hague@comcast.net writes: you literally DIVE the plane at the runway. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:03 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Un-gusts At 08:55 PM 6/18/2008, David Key wrote: >...Un-Gusts LOL!! I'm still cracking up.... OK, fine. "The airplane was flying just above stall speed when a brief lull in the otherwise steady wind put him below stall speed..." Simpler to call it, as sailors do, a "non puff" (as opposed to a puff). I called it an un gust because fliers don't use the term "puff" much. Doesn't matter what you call it, the phenomenon is real. -Dana -- When you get it right mighty beasts float up into the sky When you get it wrong people die -Roger Bacon (c1384) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:09 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Un-gusts I think the term is "wind shear". Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Dana Hague To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Un-gusts At 08:55 PM 6/18/2008, David Key wrote: ...Un-Gusts LOL!! I'm still cracking up.... OK, fine. "The airplane was flying just above stall speed when a brief lull in the otherwise steady wind put him below stall speed..." Simpler to call it, as sailors do, a "non puff" (as opposed to a puff). I called it an un gust because fliers don't use the term "puff" much. Doesn't matter what you call it, the phenomenon is real. -Dana -- When you get it right mighty beasts float up into the sky When you get it wrong people die -Roger Bacon (c1384) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: William Sullivans Accident From: "The BaronVonEvil" Hi All When most people think of wind gusts they think of a sudden rush of wind coming at them or flying into them head on. I believe what is meant by un-gust are actually just gust of wind that moves [In the same direction as the aircraft is traveling] (Sorry I don't know how to do italics). This would make it appear that the wind has slowed or stopped relative to the motion of the plane. I think when that happens, you loose lift and then start to sink until you A. Move out of the still air, (relative to the A/C) B.The plane accelerates back up above stall speed or C. Ends up on the ground. I always try and carry a safe margin of speed on approach until I'm just above the ground within safe bounce altitude and then bleed off airspeed until touch down. Should I encounter a 10 to 15 mph gust from behind, my airspeed should still be above stall speed and continue flying until the plane accelerates with the gust or flies out of it. Un-Gust is as good a name as any for a generic term for this type of wind effect. Just My $.02 Carlos G. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188550#188550 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:40 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Kolb-List: William Sullivans Accident I remember wearing the brakes out on my CGS Hawk, taxing it up and down the runway (back in 1983) before I ever flew it. I did solo in a Cessna 150 after 4 hours and spent about 2 hours in a two-seat QuickSilver so I had some training. I can only see out of one eye, but I discovered that wasn't nearley the problem I though it would be. My fricking "Dealer" lived about 40 miles north of me and never could find the time to come look at the plane to see if it was built according to the plans. If you guys think "Kolb" plans have some deficiencies, you should have seen mine and if you think Kolbs are hard to build...I was not even sure if the wings were upside down or not. Anyway - he told me that if I would fly it up to his place, he would take a good look at it and make sure everything was OK. Back then, the Ultralight factories were going full bore, and the market was awash with new designs. And "knockoffs of new designs, and knockoffs of the knockoffs. Somebody would bring a new one up every two or three weeks, put it together & try to fly it the next day. There were plans with bicycle wheels for landing gear & worse - neat. So mine (being the state-of -the-art) looked pretty good. Back then, (state of the art) meant double surfaced wings, ailerons (not spoilers) and mine even had flaps!! All that being said, I had everyone at the airport help me go over the plane before it's first flight. I don't care who you are - that is always scary. They would find things like missing bolts, missing nuts, missing cotter pins ...etc. Things that would make the aircraft difficult or interesting to handle under any circumstances. If William would have been flying with us back then he would have fit right in. Just kidding. You just started 20 years too late William. BTW: I did get there, manage to land and get back. Cheated death again. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:17 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Un-gusts At 10:02 PM 6/18/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >I think the term is "wind shear". I suppose that could apply, but I always thought of wind shear as applying when an aircraft flew from a mass of air steadily moving at one velocity to another steadily moving at another velocity, whereas an un-gust (or gust) is more a transient bit of turbulence moving along with the wind, such that it temporarily cancels (or reinforces) the mainstream wind. Put another way, a gust can be either positive or negative (or sideways, a sudden brief wind shift). I suppose I should've said "lull" instead... but I think of a "non puff" (or "un gust") as a particularly short and sharp edged lull. -Dana -- Press any key... no, no, no, NOT THAT ONE! ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:42 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Un-gusts I have to land on this postage stamp every time I fly (at least 1,400 landings here - so far). Only one way out and in. (Always land up hill) and we got trees at the north end anyway. I learned a long time ago that if I have a 10 mph headwind while landing, I add 10 mph to the landing speed because it's going to "ungust" or quit when I get below the trees. BUT I hate the south/tail winds the most. You still have to add speed to the landing so you don't have loose controls (that adds 10 mph for the wind & 10 mph for what you added - VGs are nice) . We are not allowed a "bounce" with downwind landings. These Kolbs are like a horse, you've got to have enough wind going over the surfaces to make it do what you want it to do. If you want that left wing up, you better have wind going over it to make it do what you want it to do. Called "Horsing it in". http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=263159682459782825&hl=en ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.