Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:35 AM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Russ Kinne)
2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
3. 07:20 AM - Bill's Accident (edharvey1@juno.com)
4. 08:07 AM - You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0 (pj.ladd)
5. 08:43 AM - Re: One less hurdle (lucien)
6. 08:48 AM - Re: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0 (John Hauck)
7. 10:01 AM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
8. 11:18 AM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (knowvne@aol.com)
9. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Russ Kinne)
10. 01:28 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Russ Kinne)
11. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Jim Kmet)
12. 02:24 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (planecrazzzy)
13. 03:14 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Jim Kmet)
14. 03:35 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (herb)
15. 03:43 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (beauford T)
16. 04:07 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (robert bean)
17. 04:37 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (lucien)
18. 04:53 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (planecrazzzy)
19. 05:24 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Russ Kinne)
20. 05:27 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Russ Kinne)
21. 05:35 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (knowvne@aol.com)
22. 05:35 PM - Who is going to be at Arlington? (William and/or Justina Fyfe)
23. 07:37 PM - Re: reviews ()
24. 10:06 PM - Re: Who is going to be at Arlington? (TheWanderingWench)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: One less hurdle |
GOOD ON YOU CRISTAL! GO GIRL!!
It's all worth it
On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:50 PM, cristalclear13 wrote:
> <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>
> Last day of my vacation and I finished my long solo cross country
> today. What fun! My instructor has scheduled my checkride for July
> 16th. It's so close I can almost taste it. :)
>
> I can't wait to have a passenger with me in my Kolb.
>
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Cristal Waters
> Mark II Twinstar
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188839#188839
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: One less hurdle |
Jim
It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for responding.
The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to repair
one
if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get so
much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should
teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that should
be phased out.
> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or localizer
> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach
> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it>
You got me there. I never did a ILS or localizer approach. Never got my IFR
rating either. My enjoyment of flying is visual, if I can't see the ground I
don't want to be flying.
I assume that pilot weather reports are still coded and pilots still need to
learn the coding system for the written exam. Again a waist of time. Years
ago when there were teletype machines and fast data communication was at 103
baud there was a need for coded weather reports. Today with weather
briefers, decoded reports on DUAT and even more current real data on cell
phones there is no need to read coded data. The FAA should take the money
they spend on coding weather reports and spend it on staying up to date.
Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are some things
that have to be
taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we can't try
to change it.
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Kmet" <jlsk1@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
> Rick, when on a checkride, its up to the examiner on some options to
> "check out" the applicant on, and other options, like navigation, some
> things are not an option. "Tracking a radio navigation aid" is one of
> those Have to do`s", according to the examiner I use. Any Piece of
> equipment that is in the plane that`s being used on the checkride is fair
> game, therefore, if it has a VOR & ADF in it, not being up to speed on
> it, at least minimally, is grounds for grounding, ( pun intended)
> It also depends on Cristal`s instructor`s relationship with the intended
> examiner, if the CFI knows it`s a "hotbutton" with that particular
> examiner, guess what, " Today we`re going to learn about VOR & ADF.
> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or localizer
> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach
> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it>
> Keep that Red VW Humming........
> Jim Kmet
> Cookeville, TN
> CFII
> MK-3C (Flying)
> Kolbra (Under construction)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
>
>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>
>> Cristal
>>
>> It's great to hear about getting your pilots license. It's a lot of work.
>> Today we hear of to many that are continuing to fly illegally without a
>> license. And a few that try to fly with almost no training and hurt them
>> selves. Keep us informed of your progress.
>>
>> I wonder about your instructor wanting you to practice ADF and VORs. It
>> surprises me that these instruments are still in airplanes. Are you
>> getting GPS training or glass cockpits? I suppose you still had to learn
>> to decode weather briefings for your written. Check out Pilot-Mycast for
>> your cell phone. There is everything you can get from a weather briefer
>> direct, graphic and decoded.
>>
>> Also are you able to get flight training in something closer to a Kolb.
>> Are you going to fly off some of your hours in your Kolb? Be real careful
>> letting a GA instructor fly your plane or instruct in it. Pilots used to
>> the big heavies don't do well in a Kolb. The CFI instructor for Old Kolb
>> told me his most difficult students were long time GA pilots and
>> instructors.
>>
>> Rick Neilsen
>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:07 PM
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>
>>
>>> <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>>>
>>> Thank you all! I'm glad I have this group (and the handful of Waycross
>>> "airport bums" friends who encouraged me to start this path and have
>>> helped so much along the way) to share my steps of progress. Most of my
>>> friends and family are NOT pilots so they don't understand the
>>> challenges of each hurdle. With each accomplishment they ask, "So do
>>> you have your license yet?"
>>>
>>> I have some time off this week and am trying to fit in as much as I can.
>>> I completed my first solo cross country today. I flew to Vidalia from
>>> Waycross (57NM one way) in the Cessna 150. My instructor wanted me to
>>> practice using VOR and ADF along the way. I don't have those in my Kolb
>>> and besides I am still trying to make sure my Kolb is running right.
>>> I'll start a separate thread to talk about that.
>>>
>>> You guys are great encouragement! Thanks! (and Pat, I think that is
>>> the first time I've ever been told I look better than an old
>>> codger...I'm going to take that as a compliment [Laughing])
>>>
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Cristal Waters
>>> Mark II Twinstar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188420#188420
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Message 3
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Apparently my previous posting was so poorly worded that it left
the impression that we generally operate in a dangerous and irresponsible
manner. This is not the case. There has been only one instance that might
be so described and that was Bill's recent unintended flight. It was to
this flight only that I was referring when I said it was difficult to
defend.
The only other incident in our history occurred 2 years ago when
a fuel pump failure on takeoff resulted in an off field landing with no
injuries and minor damage.
This is not a record of dangerous and irresponsible flying
practices.
We are not sitting on our hands waiting for the ax to fall and
are actively negotiating with the town. Only this one incident has been
cited against us and one incident does not constitute a practice.
Ed Harvey
Firefly/447/IVO
Palmer, MA
____________________________________________________________
Click to find great rates on home insurance, save big, shop here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m3GBL2oII4dy1MWd9pUHDONY0z0o6ZpD8lgcflTWrgk0W8t/
Message 4
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| Subject: | You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter |
Edition 3.0
Hi All,
dont know if this is going to work but here is an example of a crop
circle in a field locally. Some people think it is the work of aliens(it
appeared overnight) but I think it more likely to be the local Young
Farmers Union, or the pub darts team.
It supposed to represent the numbers in pi but it is complicated to
explain. We had some Mandelbrot and Julian Equations last year.
The things I can see from my Kolb.
Cheers
Pat
The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos.
Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: One less hurdle |
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Jim
>
> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for responding.
>
> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to repair
> one
> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get so
> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should
> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that should
> be phased out.
>
Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the animosity
towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's actually not "inaccurate",
true it does take some skill to learn to use it at first, but after
that you really appreciate its simplicity and reliability.
The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a while now.
The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ means of navigation
(rather than as just one means among several).
That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things like VOR's.
Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this other "outdated"
technology.
I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous) idea
for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a GPS vs other
navigation methods thread).
In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more practical, for
size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit a decent King VOR
in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 barely works).
Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll _make_
the sucker fit.....
As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many require
DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a LOC/GS.
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter |
Edition 3.0
Patrick:
What altitude were you when you took this photo from your Kolb?
john h
mkIII
The things I can see from my Kolb.
Cheers
Pat
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
Lucien
Hey join in.
When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was
VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had
dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best
a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME
but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets.
A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just
teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power
goes out.
When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type
writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable
with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to
use E-Mail.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> Jim
>>
>> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
>> responding.
>>
>> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
>> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
>> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to
>> repair
>> one
>> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get
>> so
>> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
>> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should
>> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that
>> should
>> be phased out.
>>
>
>
> Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the
> animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's
> actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it
> at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and
> reliability.
>
> The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a
> while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_
> means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several).
>
> That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things
> like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this
> other "outdated" technology.
>
> I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous)
> idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a
> GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
>
> In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more
> practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit
> a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22
> barely works).
>
> Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll
> _make_ the sucker fit.....
>
> As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many
> require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a
> LOC/GS.
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> FS II
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
Rick =C2-
I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check
points
and Clock is telling me..
The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Distance
and speed is
right in your face.....=C2-
BUT here again you=C2-should already have =C2-numbers before leaving the
=C2-ground...
If the GPS fails for what ever reason =C2-and your=C2-50 miles out =C2
-the last thing you want=C2-
is a Panic attack at 3k...... =C2-Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ opt
ions than
the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) =C2-But landing in someone back yard to
ask
WHERE AM I =C2-just isnt cool hahahaha
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
st.net>=C2-
=C2-
Lucien=C2-
=C2-
Hey join in.=C2-
=C2-
When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was
VORs and ADFs.=C2-
Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had
dual VORs with DME and a ADF.=C2-
Believe me I used them and I was good at it.=C2-
At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.=C2-
At best
a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME
but Exactly where are you?
=C2-The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets.
A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just
teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power
goes out.=C2-
=C2-
When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type
writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable
with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to
use E-Mail.=C2-
=C2-
Rick Neilsen=C2-
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC=C2-
=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>=C2-
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM=C2-
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle=C2-
=C2-
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:=C2-
>> Jim=C2-
>>=C2-
>> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
>> responding.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
=C2-
>> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
=C2-
>> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to
>> repair=C2-
>> one=C2-
>> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get
>> so=C2-
>> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of=C2-
>> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should
=C2-
>> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that
>> should=C2-
>> be phased out.=C2-
>>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the
> animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's
> actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it
> at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and
> reliability.=C2-
>=C2-
> The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a
> while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_
> means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several).=C2-
>=C2-
> That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things
> like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this
> other "outdated" technology.=C2-
>=C2-
> I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous)
> idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a
> GPS vs other navigation methods thread).=C2-
>=C2-
> In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more
> practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit
> a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22
> barely works).=C2-
>=C2-
> Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll
> _make_ the sucker fit.....=C2-
>=C2-
> As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many
> require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a
> LOC/GS.=C2-
>=C2-
> LS=C2-
>=C2-
> --------=C2-
> LS=C2-
> FS II=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Read this topic online here:=C2-
>=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
=C2-
=C2-
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: One less hurdle |
About ADF's -- I think they're mainly used to listen to the ball
games!-- they pick up commercial stations.
And their range is WAY better than VOR's. You can home in on a
commercial station near your destination airport from a hundred
miles or more away.
And in Canada I'd never be without one -- everything else is just
too far apart.
ADF is a good and proven system - don't sell it short.
When/if unexpected fog sets in, or at night, it can save your butt.
But I agree it's perhaps foolish to spend much time & money on them
for 'normal' navigation, and requiring this is perhaps outdated. (Tho
it's really pretty easy)
On the other hand, ALL such knowledge will make you a better pilot.
But the Gov't does things like this. I believe the ship-captain
license still requires you to know the light code for minesweepers!
(3 geen lites in a triangle)
I for one have never even seen one underway, but have to know what
to look for anyway.
Get with it, Uncle Sam!
do not archive
On Jun 21, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> Jim
>
> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
> responding.
>
> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn
> that to
> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money
> to repair one
> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money
> and get so
> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training
> should
> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that
> should be phased out.
>
>> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or
>> localizer
>> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final
>> approach
>> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it>
>
> You got me there. I never did a ILS or localizer approach. Never
> got my IFR
> rating either. My enjoyment of flying is visual, if I can't see the
> ground I don't want to be flying.
>
> I assume that pilot weather reports are still coded and pilots
> still need to
> learn the coding system for the written exam. Again a waist of
> time. Years
> ago when there were teletype machines and fast data communication
> was at 103
> baud there was a need for coded weather reports. Today with weather
> briefers, decoded reports on DUAT and even more current real data
> on cell phones there is no need to read coded data. The FAA should
> take the money they spend on coding weather reports and spend it on
> staying up to date.
>
> Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are
> some things that have to be
> taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we
> can't try
> to change it.
>
> Do not archive
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kmet" <jlsk1@frontiernet.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 4:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
>
>>
>> Rick, when on a checkride, its up to the examiner on some options to
>> "check out" the applicant on, and other options, like navigation,
>> some
>> things are not an option. "Tracking a radio navigation aid" is
>> one of
>> those Have to do`s", according to the examiner I use. Any Piece of
>> equipment that is in the plane that`s being used on the checkride
>> is fair
>> game, therefore, if it has a VOR & ADF in it, not being up to
>> speed on
>> it, at least minimally, is grounds for grounding, ( pun intended)
>> It also depends on Cristal`s instructor`s relationship with the
>> intended
>> examiner, if the CFI knows it`s a "hotbutton" with that particular
>> examiner, guess what, " Today we`re going to learn about VOR & ADF.
>> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or
>> localizer
>> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final
>> approach
>> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it>
>> Keep that Red VW Humming........
>> Jim Kmet
>> Cookeville, TN
>> CFII
>> MK-3C (Flying)
>> Kolbra (Under construction)
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>
>>
>>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>>
>>> Cristal
>>>
>>> It's great to hear about getting your pilots license. It's a lot
>>> of work.
>>> Today we hear of to many that are continuing to fly illegally
>>> without a
>>> license. And a few that try to fly with almost no training and
>>> hurt them
>>> selves. Keep us informed of your progress.
>>>
>>> I wonder about your instructor wanting you to practice ADF and
>>> VORs. It
>>> surprises me that these instruments are still in airplanes. Are you
>>> getting GPS training or glass cockpits? I suppose you still had
>>> to learn
>>> to decode weather briefings for your written. Check out Pilot-
>>> Mycast for
>>> your cell phone. There is everything you can get from a weather
>>> briefer
>>> direct, graphic and decoded.
>>>
>>> Also are you able to get flight training in something closer to a
>>> Kolb.
>>> Are you going to fly off some of your hours in your Kolb? Be real
>>> careful
>>> letting a GA instructor fly your plane or instruct in it. Pilots
>>> used to
>>> the big heavies don't do well in a Kolb. The CFI instructor for
>>> Old Kolb
>>> told me his most difficult students were long time GA pilots and
>>> instructors.
>>>
>>> Rick Neilsen
>>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "cristalclear13"
>>> <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:07 PM
>>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>>
>>>
>>>> <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you all! I'm glad I have this group (and the handful of
>>>> Waycross
>>>> "airport bums" friends who encouraged me to start this path and
>>>> have
>>>> helped so much along the way) to share my steps of progress.
>>>> Most of my
>>>> friends and family are NOT pilots so they don't understand the
>>>> challenges of each hurdle. With each accomplishment they ask,
>>>> "So do
>>>> you have your license yet?"
>>>>
>>>> I have some time off this week and am trying to fit in as much
>>>> as I can.
>>>> I completed my first solo cross country today. I flew to
>>>> Vidalia from
>>>> Waycross (57NM one way) in the Cessna 150. My instructor wanted
>>>> me to
>>>> practice using VOR and ADF along the way. I don't have those in
>>>> my Kolb
>>>> and besides I am still trying to make sure my Kolb is running
>>>> right.
>>>> I'll start a separate thread to talk about that.
>>>>
>>>> You guys are great encouragement! Thanks! (and Pat, I think
>>>> that is
>>>> the first time I've ever been told I look better than an old
>>>> codger...I'm going to take that as a compliment [Laughing])
>>>>
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Cristal Waters
>>>> Mark II Twinstar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188420#188420
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will
admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another?
(Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)
Anyone gonna fess up?
do not archive
On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
> Rick
> I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
> Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my
> compass check points
> and Clock is telling me..
>
> The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-)
> Distance and speed is
> right in your face.....
>
> BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the
> ground...
>
> If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the
> last thing you want
> is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ
> options than
> the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back
> yard to ask
> WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>
> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> Lucien
>
> Hey join in.
>
> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic
> navigation was VORs and ADFs.
> Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual
> VORs with DME and a ADF.
> Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
>
> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
>
> At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a
> distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you?
>
>
> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you
> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach
> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the
> power goes out.
>
> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules
> and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are
> never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the
> battles to get some people to use E-Mail.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
> >
> >
> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
> >> responding.
> >>
> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn
> that to
> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is
> expensive and
> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the
> money to >> repair
> >> one
> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money
> and get >> so
> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
> >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot
> training should
> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment
> that >> should
> >> be phased out.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really
> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped
> up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take
> some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really
> appreciate its simplicity and > reliability.
> >
> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for
> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it
> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means
> among several).
> >
> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate
> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need
> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.
> >
> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and
> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into
> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
> >
> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more
> > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I
> could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat
> (the one in my A22 > barely works).
> >
> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to
> me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
> >
> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an
> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just
> a VOR and a > LOC/GS.
> >
> > LS
> >
> > --------
> > LS
> > FS II
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ==========
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ==========
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
>
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: One less hurdle |
Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are some things
> that have to be
> taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we can't try
> to change it.
Hey, no need for the apology, I rant all the time., heck, I agree with the
comment,but like you say, the rule is the rule.
Smiles, Jim
do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> Jim
>
> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
> responding.
>
> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to
> repair one
> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get
> so
> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should
> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that should
> be phased out.
>
>> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or
>> localizer
>> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach
>> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it>
>
> You got me there. I never did a ILS or localizer approach. Never got my
> IFR
> rating either. My enjoyment of flying is visual, if I can't see the ground
> I don't want to be flying.
>
> I assume that pilot weather reports are still coded and pilots still need
> to
> learn the coding system for the written exam. Again a waist of time. Years
> ago when there were teletype machines and fast data communication was at
> 103
> baud there was a need for coded weather reports. Today with weather
> briefers, decoded reports on DUAT and even more current real data on cell
> phones there is no need to read coded data. The FAA should take the money
> they spend on coding weather reports and spend it on staying up to date.
>
> Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are some
> things that have to be
> taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we can't try
> to change it.
>
> Do not archive
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Kmet" <jlsk1@frontiernet.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 4:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
>
>>
>> Rick, when on a checkride, its up to the examiner on some options to
>> "check out" the applicant on, and other options, like navigation, some
>> things are not an option. "Tracking a radio navigation aid" is one of
>> those Have to do`s", according to the examiner I use. Any Piece of
>> equipment that is in the plane that`s being used on the checkride is fair
>> game, therefore, if it has a VOR & ADF in it, not being up to speed on
>> it, at least minimally, is grounds for grounding, ( pun intended)
>> It also depends on Cristal`s instructor`s relationship with the intended
>> examiner, if the CFI knows it`s a "hotbutton" with that particular
>> examiner, guess what, " Today we`re going to learn about VOR & ADF.
>> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or
>> localizer
>> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach
>> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it>
>> Keep that Red VW Humming........
>> Jim Kmet
>> Cookeville, TN
>> CFII
>> MK-3C (Flying)
>> Kolbra (Under construction)
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>
>>
>>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>>
>>> Cristal
>>>
>>> It's great to hear about getting your pilots license. It's a lot of
>>> work.
>>> Today we hear of to many that are continuing to fly illegally without a
>>> license. And a few that try to fly with almost no training and hurt them
>>> selves. Keep us informed of your progress.
>>>
>>> I wonder about your instructor wanting you to practice ADF and VORs. It
>>> surprises me that these instruments are still in airplanes. Are you
>>> getting GPS training or glass cockpits? I suppose you still had to learn
>>> to decode weather briefings for your written. Check out Pilot-Mycast for
>>> your cell phone. There is everything you can get from a weather briefer
>>> direct, graphic and decoded.
>>>
>>> Also are you able to get flight training in something closer to a Kolb.
>>> Are you going to fly off some of your hours in your Kolb? Be real
>>> careful
>>> letting a GA instructor fly your plane or instruct in it. Pilots used to
>>> the big heavies don't do well in a Kolb. The CFI instructor for Old Kolb
>>> told me his most difficult students were long time GA pilots and
>>> instructors.
>>>
>>> Rick Neilsen
>>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:07 PM
>>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>>
>>>
>>>> <cristalclearwaters@juno.com>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you all! I'm glad I have this group (and the handful of Waycross
>>>> "airport bums" friends who encouraged me to start this path and have
>>>> helped so much along the way) to share my steps of progress. Most of
>>>> my
>>>> friends and family are NOT pilots so they don't understand the
>>>> challenges of each hurdle. With each accomplishment they ask, "So do
>>>> you have your license yet?"
>>>>
>>>> I have some time off this week and am trying to fit in as much as I
>>>> can.
>>>> I completed my first solo cross country today. I flew to Vidalia from
>>>> Waycross (57NM one way) in the Cessna 150. My instructor wanted me to
>>>> practice using VOR and ADF along the way. I don't have those in my
>>>> Kolb
>>>> and besides I am still trying to make sure my Kolb is running right.
>>>> I'll start a separate thread to talk about that.
>>>>
>>>> You guys are great encouragement! Thanks! (and Pat, I think that is
>>>> the first time I've ever been told I look better than an old
>>>> codger...I'm going to take that as a compliment [Laughing])
>>>>
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Cristal Waters
>>>> Mark II Twinstar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188420#188420
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
For some reason during my flight back from a Fly-in today...
My GPS was shutting off....??? I checked the connections but it did it again...
I do fly with current charts...and I have them in a plastic Sleeve so they
don't blow around....
But it got me thinking...What if I'm on one of my longer cross country flights...
.
Glad I had the training while getting my Private ticket...
.
.
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188949#188949
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/my_x_country_flight_to_baraboo_wi_001_202.jpg
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I have ne
ver been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my location", & usin
g all my "tools, have confirmed my position, but never been "lost". Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Kinne
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will admit
to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having c
ompass, clock & some other stuff too)
Anyone gonna fess up?
do not archive
On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
Rick
I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass
check points
and Clock is telling me..
The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Dist
ance and speed is
right in your face.....
BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the gro
und...
If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the last
thing you want
is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ opt
ions than
the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back yard to
ask
WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
comcast.net>
Lucien
Hey join in.
When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation wa
s VORs and ADFs.
Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs w
ith DME and a ADF.
Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance i
f it has DME but Exactly where are you?
The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a gr
aphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach
compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out.
When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and
type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfo
rtable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some peop
le to use E-Mail.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> Jim
>>
>> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >>
responding.
>>
>> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn tha
t to
>> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive a
nd
>> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to
>> repair
>> one
>> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and
get >> so
>> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
>> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training sh
ould
>> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that
>> should
>> be phased out.
>>
>
>
> Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand t
he > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's >
actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it
> at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reli
ability.
>
> The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a
> while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ >
means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several).
>
> That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate thin
gs > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all
this > other "outdated" technology.
>
> I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dange
rous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we
want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
>
> In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > pr
actical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit >
a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 >
barely works).
>
> Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me.
I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
>
> As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Ma
ny > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a >
LOC/GS.
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> FS II
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
Jim and all
Reminds me of story attributed to Daniel Boone..Someone asked him
after his long exploration of the wilds of Kenturcky ..if he had ever
been lost...He responded : "no, but I was bewildered once" . :-) Herb
At 05:11 PM 6/21/2008, you wrote:
>Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I
>have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my
>location", & using all my "tools, have confirmed my position, but
>never been "lost". Jim
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:russ@rkiphoto.com>Russ Kinne
>To: <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>kolb-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:23 PM
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>
>This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will
>admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another?
>(Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)
>Anyone gonna fess up?
>do not archive
>
>
>On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, <mailto:knowvne@aol.com>knowvne@aol.com wrote:
>
>>Rick
>>I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
>>Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my
>>compass check points
>>and Clock is telling me..
>>
>>The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-)
>>Distance and speed is
>>right in your face.....
>>
>>BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the ground...
>>
>>If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the
>>last thing you want
>>is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ
>>options than
>>the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back yard to ask
>>WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
>>
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard & Martha Neilsen
>><<mailto:NeilsenRM@comcast.net>NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>To: <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>kolb-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
>>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>>
>><<mailto:NeilsenRM@comcast.net>NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>
>>Lucien
>>
>>Hey join in.
>>
>>When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic
>>navigation was VORs and ADFs.
>>Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual
>>VORs with DME and a ADF.
>>Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
>>
>>At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
>>
>>At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a
>>distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you?
>>
>>
>> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you
>> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach
>> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the
>> power goes out.
>>
>>When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules
>>and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are
>>never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the
>>battles to get some people to use E-Mail.
>>
>>Rick Neilsen
>>Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien"
>><<mailto:lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>>To: <<mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
>>Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>
>> <<mailto:lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>> >
>> >
>> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> >> Jim
>> >>
>> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks
>> for >> responding.
>> >>
>> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
>> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
>> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the
>> money to >> repair
>> >> one
>> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less
>> money and get >> so
>> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
>> >> information at your fingertips It would seem that pilot training should
>> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment
>> that >> should
>> >> be phased out.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really
>> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have
>> cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it
>> does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that
>> you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability.
>> >
>> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for
>> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it
>> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means
>> among several).
>> >
>> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate
>> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need
>> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.
>> >
>> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and
>> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into
>> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
>> >
>> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot
>> more > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is,
>> if I could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a
>> heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barely works).
>> >
>> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it
>> to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
>> >
>> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an
>> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with
>> just a VOR and a > LOC/GS.
>> >
>> > LS
>> >
>> > --------
>> > LS
>> > FS II
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> >
>> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>==========
>>et="_blank"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>
>>==========
>>p://forums.matronics.com
>>==========
>>blank"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>==========
>>
>>
>>
>>----------
>><http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>Get
>>the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
>>
>>
>>
>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>
>>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
It doesn't just happen to Kolbers, Brother Kinne....one fine summer
Sunday morning in 1955 an Eastern Air Lines Martin 404 did that very
thing at Bowman Field in Louisville... hazy, milky calm morning... he
was talking to Standiford tower 5 miles away, but landed at Bowman... I
heard the commotion and looked up when he reversed the props to stop
it... I stood there with my skinny lineboy mouth hanging open as he
taxiied up... the "company" refused to let him take off again and hop
over to Standiford... he had to shut 'er down in front of the old
airline terminal and I chocked him... in about 2 hours they sent busses
to get 'em all... I am pretty sure he had plenty of compasses, clocks
and no tellin' what all in there... it sat there all that day and a crew
came to fetch it the next morning. Paperwork...?
Do Not archive
Beauford
FF076
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Kinne
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will
admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite
having compass, clock & some other stuff too)
Anyone gonna fess up?
do not archive
On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
Rick
I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my
compass check points
and Clock is telling me..
The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-)
Distance and speed is
right in your face.....
BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the
ground...
If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the
last thing you want
is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ
options than
the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back yard
to ask
WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
<NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Lucien
Hey join in.
When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation
was VORs and ADFs.
Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual
VORs with DME and a ADF.
Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a
distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you?
The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a
graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also
teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out.
When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules
and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are
never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to
get some people to use E-Mail.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien"
<lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
<lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
>
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> Jim
>>
>> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
>> responding.
>>
>> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn
that to
>> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is
expensive and
>> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money
to >> repair
>> one
>> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money
and get >> so
>> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth
of
>> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training
should
>> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment
that >> should
>> be phased out.
>>
>
>
> Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really
understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up
recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill
to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really appreciate its
simplicity and > reliability.
>
> The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for
quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it as
the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means among
several).
>
> That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate
things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to
learn all this > other "outdated" technology.
>
> I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and
dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here
(unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
>
> In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more >
practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could
fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in
my A22 > barely works).
>
> Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to
me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
>
> As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF.
Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and
a > LOC/GS.
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> FS II
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
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ontribution
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
Flying back from an aeronca convention at Middletown, Ohio in the mid
80s with a friend/passenger. Lovely
day, flying high enuff to see landmarks, yakking it up.... Funny
thing about those little
towns in Ohio, they all look the same. Have to admit I got somewhat
behind on my navigation
and wasn't sure where I was on the marks-a-lot line. Well that won't
do, I like to be on top
of things even if it's perfect flying conditions. About then I saw a
runway below and headed
down. Taxied up, and sectional in hand asked the folks standing
there where I was.
Great trip, tailwinds at 7000 both ways, but my bud had some evil
gas in the tent one night.
Shouldn't a gone across the street to that redneck bar.
BB
do not archive
On 21, Jun 2008, at 4:23 PM, Russ Kinne wrote:
> This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will
> admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another?
> (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)
> Anyone gonna fess up?
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Rick
>> I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
>> Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my
>> compass check points
>> and Clock is telling me..
>>
>> The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-)
>> Distance and speed is
>> right in your face.....
>>
>> BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving
>> the ground...
>>
>> If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the
>> last thing you want
>> is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more
>> LZ options than
>> the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back
>> yard to ask
>> WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>>
>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>
>> Lucien
>>
>> Hey join in.
>>
>> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic
>> navigation was VORs and ADFs.
>> Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual
>> VORs with DME and a ADF.
>> Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
>>
>> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
>>
>> At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a
>> distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you?
>>
>>
>> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you
>> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach
>> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the
>> power goes out.
>>
>> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules
>> and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people
>> are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the
>> battles to get some people to use E-Mail.
>>
>> Rick Neilsen
>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien"
>> <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>
>> <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>> >
>> >
>> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> >> Jim
>> >>
>> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks
>> for >> responding.
>> >>
>> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to
>> learn that to
>> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is
>> expensive and
>> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the
>> money to >> repair
>> >> one
>> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less
>> money and get >> so
>> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
>> >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot
>> training should
>> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment
>> that >> should
>> >> be phased out.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really
>> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have
>> cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it
>> does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that
>> you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability.
>> >
>> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for
>> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it
>> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means
>> among several).
>> >
>> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate
>> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need
>> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.
>> >
>> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and
>> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into
>> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
>> >
>> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more
>> > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I
>> could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat
>> (the one in my A22 > barely works).
>> >
>> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it
>> to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
>> >
>> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an
>> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with
>> just a VOR and a > LOC/GS.
>> >
>> > LS
>> >
>> > --------
>> > LS
>> > FS II
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ==========
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> p://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>> Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Lucien
>
> Hey join in.
>
> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was
> VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had
> dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best
> a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME
> but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets.
> A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just
> teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power
> goes out.
>
> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type
> writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable
> with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to
> use E-Mail.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
> ---
Well I'm ambivalent about GPS personally. I'm all for anything that reduces pilot
workload, but at the same time I get really nervous hanging multi-thousand
buck airplanes on little crappy electronic devices (especially digital ones).
Note tongue is a little in cheek here but....
It's sort of like the debate about putting new technology on engines - electronic
fuel injection, electronic spark advance and all this stuff. Fact is, you don't
need 95% of that stuff in an aircraft applications for a variety of reasons.
A good friend of mine back in TX once told me that the Lycosaurs and continentals
were so exactingly refined for aviation that they havn't changed since the
late 1940's. Or was it that they quit adding new features in the 1940's and then
it's merely been refining them for aviation that's gone on since...
Can't remember, but I think his point was quite well made ;).
I'd say CDI is the best innovation that's come to aircraft engines in the last
50 years and really the only one that truly improves an a/c engine's situation.
This may or may not be true of GPS in avionics. GPS has lot of downsides - it's
little crappy digital semiconductors, 100 bucks worth of parts being sold for
100 times that with the single-point failure problem in most cases, the GPS is
owned by the military and they frequently intentionally degrade the signal (like
they do here) with very little notice and on and on.
For reasons like this, I don't like the idea of GPS as _sole_ means of aviation.
I think it's fine as one of several and it's absolutely grand in that regard.
It adds so much simplicity to navigation and helps so much with situational
awareness and so on.
But I'm not convinced that it's reliable enough to justify pitching the "old technology"
out altogether. An analogue VOR or even two in good working condition
can by itself get you out of all kinds of jams even absent anything else (This
is how I found myself again on my private long xcountry for example when I
got lost).
I don't think FnAA agrees tho and they seem to be pushing it as sole means. So
who knows.
Like I said, if I could fit a good VOR in the titan I'd definitely install one...
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188966#188966
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
I have Nav/Com.... it has VOR....Which is a good backup for my GPS
.
.
Gotta Fly...
.
.
.
[quote="lucien"]
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Lucien
>
>
> Like I said, if I could fit a good VOR in the titan I'd definitely install one...
>
> LS
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
just a humorous comment -- many Bahamian natives fish in small
smacks, rocks for ballast, no compass, no lights, no nothing. Good
sailors, but the navigation is near-nonexistent.
After a storm, when they fetch up on an unknown coast or harbor,
their first call is "HELLO DIS PLACE' -- then someone ashore will yell
"WELCOME TO ABACO", and then they'll say "HELLOOOO ABACO!" and go on
from there. It works.
do not archive
On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
> Rick
> I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
> Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my
> compass check points
> and Clock is telling me..
>
> The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-)
> Distance and speed is
> right in your face.....
>
> BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the
> ground...
>
> If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the
> last thing you want
> is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ
> options than
> the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back
> yard to ask
> WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>
> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> Lucien
>
> Hey join in.
>
> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic
> navigation was VORs and ADFs.
> Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual
> VORs with DME and a ADF.
> Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
>
> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
>
> At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a
> distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you?
>
>
> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you
> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach
> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the
> power goes out.
>
> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules
> and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are
> never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the
> battles to get some people to use E-Mail.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>
> >
> >
> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for
> >> responding.
> >>
> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn
> that to
> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is
> expensive and
> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the
> money to >> repair
> >> one
> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money
> and get >> so
> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
> >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot
> training should
> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment
> that >> should
> >> be phased out.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really
> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped
> up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take
> some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really
> appreciate its simplicity and > reliability.
> >
> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for
> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it
> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means
> among several).
> >
> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate
> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need
> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.
> >
> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and
> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into
> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
> >
> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more
> > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I
> could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat
> (the one in my A22 > barely works).
> >
> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to
> me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
> >
> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an
> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just
> a VOR and a > LOC/GS.
> >
> > LS
> >
> > --------
> > LS
> > FS II
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ==========
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ==========
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
Thanx Jim. I can't make that claim!
On Jun 21, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Jim Kmet wrote:
> Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I
> have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my
> location", & using all my "tools, have confirmed my position, but
> never been "lost". Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Russ Kinne
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>
> This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will
> admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another?
> (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too)
> Anyone gonna fess up?
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Rick
>> I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
>> Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my
>> compass check points
>> and Clock is telling me..
>>
>> The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-)
>> Distance and speed is
>> right in your face.....
>>
>> BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving
>> the ground...
>>
>> If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the
>> last thing you want
>> is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more
>> LZ options than
>> the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back
>> yard to ask
>> WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
>>
>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>
>> Lucien
>>
>> Hey join in.
>>
>> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic
>> navigation was VORs and ADFs.
>> Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual
>> VORs with DME and a ADF.
>> Believe me I used them and I was good at it.
>>
>> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.
>>
>> At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a
>> distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you?
>>
>>
>> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you
>> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach
>> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the
>> power goes out.
>>
>> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules
>> and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people
>> are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the
>> battles to get some people to use E-Mail.
>>
>> Rick Neilsen
>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien"
>> <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle
>>
>> <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>> >
>> >
>> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> >> Jim
>> >>
>> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks
>> for >> responding.
>> >>
>> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to
>> learn that to
>> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is
>> expensive and
>> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the
>> money to >> repair
>> >> one
>> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less
>> money and get >> so
>> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of
>> >> information at your fingertips It would seem that pilot
>> training should
>> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment
>> that >> should
>> >> be phased out.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really
>> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have
>> cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it
>> does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that
>> you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability.
>> >
>> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for
>> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it
>> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means
>> among several).
>> >
>> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate
>> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need
>> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.
>> >
>> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and
>> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into
>> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).
>> >
>> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more
>> > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I
>> could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat
>> (the one in my A22 > barely works).
>> >
>> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it
>> to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....
>> >
>> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an
>> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with
>> just a VOR and a > LOC/GS.
>> >
>> > LS
>> >
>> > --------
>> > LS
>> > FS II
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ==========
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> p://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>> Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://
>> www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
> p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ics.com
> matronics.com/contribution
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff |
On my second Solo XC I land at a little dirt strip so to find out where I wa
s...=C2-
BUT I wouldn't have=C2-landed had they painted the name in the Dirt ...
Oh and I wasn't lost hahahaha
Never have landed at the Wrong Airport..=C2-
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Russ Kinne <russ@rkiphoto.com>
Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 4:23 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
This thread is getting interesting -- OK =C2-now, how many of you will adm
it to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having
compass, clock & some other stuff too)
Anyone gonna fess up?
do not archive
On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote:
Rick =C2-
I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock...
Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check
points
and Clock is telling me..
The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Distance
and speed is
right in your face.....=C2-
BUT here again you=C2-should already have =C2-numbers before leaving the
=C2-ground...
If the GPS fails for what ever reason =C2-and your=C2-50 miles out =C2
-the last thing you want=C2-
is a Panic attack at 3k...... =C2-Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ opt
ions than
the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) =C2-But landing in someone back yard to
ask
WHERE AM I =C2-just isnt cool hahahaha
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff
ast.net>=C2-
=C2-
Lucien=C2-
=C2-
Hey join in.=C2-
=C2-
When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was VO
Rs and ADFs.=C2-
Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs with D
ME and a ADF.=C2-
Believe me I used them and I was good at it.=C2-
At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.=C2-
At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it
has DME but Exactly where are you?
=C2-The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a gr
aphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach
compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out.=C2-
=C2-
When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type
writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortabl
e with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to
use E-Mail.=C2-
=C2-
Rick Neilsen=C2-
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC=C2-
=C2-
----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>=C2
-
To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>=C2-
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM=C2-
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle=C2-
=C2-
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:=C2-
>> Jim=C2-
>>=C2-
>> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >> resp
onding.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to
=C2-
>> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and
=C2-
>> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to >>
repair=C2-
>> one=C2-
>> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get
>> so=C2-
>> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of=C2
-
>> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should
=C2-
>> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that >> s
hould=C2-
>> be phased out.=C2-
>>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the >
animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's > act
ually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it > at
first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliabilit
y.=C2-
>=C2-
> The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a > w
hile now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ > mean
s of navigation (rather than as just one means among several).=C2-
>=C2-
> That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things >
like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this
> other "outdated" technology.=C2-
>=C2-
> I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous
) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want
a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).=C2-
>=C2-
> In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > practi
cal, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit > a dec
ent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barel
y works).=C2-
>=C2-
> Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'l
l > _make_ the sucker fit.....=C2-
>=C2-
> As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many >
require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a > LOC/G
S.=C2-
>=C2-
> LS=C2-
>=C2-
> --------=C2-
> LS=C2-
> FS II=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Read this topic online here:=C2-
>=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-
============C2-
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List=C2-
============C2-
p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
============C2-
blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
============C2-
=C2-
=C2-
Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution
Message 22
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| Subject: | Who is going to be at Arlington? |
Message 23
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As I remember, there are 4 levels of learning. Rote, Insight, Perception and finally
Reflex. I am an old, old flight instructor who learned in a tail dragger.
One can learn with an instructor or one can learn without an instructor.
A rusty old pilot in a new plane maybe just as prone to accident as a novice.
I taxied my Kolb Mark III Classic for about 3 or more hours before I even lifted
the tail at high speed. After all, over 1000 hours of labor and $18,000
dollars of investment, gets ones attention. How would one know how much taxi
time is required before trying to crow hop? It is somewhere between Perception
and Reflex. The more that one does not want to wreck his airplane, the more
he will want to achieve accurate and quick reflexs. One other thing: If one
gets confident enough to leave the airport, DO NOT just go up and fly around.
Make a plan to fly somewhere and do it. Such as: 5 - 10 pattern flights in
a row without touching wheels to the ground. In othe
r!
words, get comfortable with the approach before trying a landing.
Have an eventless flight. Vic
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Who is going to be at Arlington? |
I will be there.
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Sat, 6/21/08, William and/or Justina Fyfe <wjfyfe@att.net> wrote:
> From: William and/or Justina Fyfe <wjfyfe@att.net>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Who is going to be at Arlington?
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 5:29 PM
>
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