---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/21/08: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:35 AM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Russ Kinne) 2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 3. 07:20 AM - Bill's Accident (edharvey1@juno.com) 4. 08:07 AM - You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0 (pj.ladd) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: One less hurdle (lucien) 6. 08:48 AM - Re: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0 (John Hauck) 7. 10:01 AM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 8. 11:18 AM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (knowvne@aol.com) 9. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Russ Kinne) 10. 01:28 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Russ Kinne) 11. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: One less hurdle (Jim Kmet) 12. 02:24 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (planecrazzzy) 13. 03:14 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Jim Kmet) 14. 03:35 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (herb) 15. 03:43 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (beauford T) 16. 04:07 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (robert bean) 17. 04:37 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (lucien) 18. 04:53 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (planecrazzzy) 19. 05:24 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Russ Kinne) 20. 05:27 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (Russ Kinne) 21. 05:35 PM - Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff (knowvne@aol.com) 22. 05:35 PM - Who is going to be at Arlington? (William and/or Justina Fyfe) 23. 07:37 PM - Re: reviews () 24. 10:06 PM - Re: Who is going to be at Arlington? (TheWanderingWench) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:29 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle GOOD ON YOU CRISTAL! GO GIRL!! It's all worth it On Jun 20, 2008, at 9:50 PM, cristalclear13 wrote: > > > Last day of my vacation and I finished my long solo cross country > today. What fun! My instructor has scheduled my checkride for July > 16th. It's so close I can almost taste it. :) > > I can't wait to have a passenger with me in my Kolb. > > > do not archive > > -------- > Cristal Waters > Mark II Twinstar > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188839#188839 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:50 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle Jim It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for responding. The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to repair one if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get so much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that should be phased out. > Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or localizer > approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach > fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it> You got me there. I never did a ILS or localizer approach. Never got my IFR rating either. My enjoyment of flying is visual, if I can't see the ground I don't want to be flying. I assume that pilot weather reports are still coded and pilots still need to learn the coding system for the written exam. Again a waist of time. Years ago when there were teletype machines and fast data communication was at 103 baud there was a need for coded weather reports. Today with weather briefers, decoded reports on DUAT and even more current real data on cell phones there is no need to read coded data. The FAA should take the money they spend on coding weather reports and spend it on staying up to date. Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are some things that have to be taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we can't try to change it. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kmet" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > Rick, when on a checkride, its up to the examiner on some options to > "check out" the applicant on, and other options, like navigation, some > things are not an option. "Tracking a radio navigation aid" is one of > those Have to do`s", according to the examiner I use. Any Piece of > equipment that is in the plane that`s being used on the checkride is fair > game, therefore, if it has a VOR & ADF in it, not being up to speed on > it, at least minimally, is grounds for grounding, ( pun intended) > It also depends on Cristal`s instructor`s relationship with the intended > examiner, if the CFI knows it`s a "hotbutton" with that particular > examiner, guess what, " Today we`re going to learn about VOR & ADF. > Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or localizer > approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach > fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it> > Keep that Red VW Humming........ > Jim Kmet > Cookeville, TN > CFII > MK-3C (Flying) > Kolbra (Under construction) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:57 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > >> >> >> Cristal >> >> It's great to hear about getting your pilots license. It's a lot of work. >> Today we hear of to many that are continuing to fly illegally without a >> license. And a few that try to fly with almost no training and hurt them >> selves. Keep us informed of your progress. >> >> I wonder about your instructor wanting you to practice ADF and VORs. It >> surprises me that these instruments are still in airplanes. Are you >> getting GPS training or glass cockpits? I suppose you still had to learn >> to decode weather briefings for your written. Check out Pilot-Mycast for >> your cell phone. There is everything you can get from a weather briefer >> direct, graphic and decoded. >> >> Also are you able to get flight training in something closer to a Kolb. >> Are you going to fly off some of your hours in your Kolb? Be real careful >> letting a GA instructor fly your plane or instruct in it. Pilots used to >> the big heavies don't do well in a Kolb. The CFI instructor for Old Kolb >> told me his most difficult students were long time GA pilots and >> instructors. >> >> Rick Neilsen >> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "cristalclear13" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:07 PM >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >> >> >>> >>> >>> Thank you all! I'm glad I have this group (and the handful of Waycross >>> "airport bums" friends who encouraged me to start this path and have >>> helped so much along the way) to share my steps of progress. Most of my >>> friends and family are NOT pilots so they don't understand the >>> challenges of each hurdle. With each accomplishment they ask, "So do >>> you have your license yet?" >>> >>> I have some time off this week and am trying to fit in as much as I can. >>> I completed my first solo cross country today. I flew to Vidalia from >>> Waycross (57NM one way) in the Cessna 150. My instructor wanted me to >>> practice using VOR and ADF along the way. I don't have those in my Kolb >>> and besides I am still trying to make sure my Kolb is running right. >>> I'll start a separate thread to talk about that. >>> >>> You guys are great encouragement! Thanks! (and Pat, I think that is >>> the first time I've ever been told I look better than an old >>> codger...I'm going to take that as a compliment [Laughing]) >>> >>> do not archive >>> >>> -------- >>> Cristal Waters >>> Mark II Twinstar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188420#188420 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:57 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Bill's Accident From: edharvey1@juno.com Apparently my previous posting was so poorly worded that it left the impression that we generally operate in a dangerous and irresponsible manner. This is not the case. There has been only one instance that might be so described and that was Bill's recent unintended flight. It was to this flight only that I was referring when I said it was difficult to defend. The only other incident in our history occurred 2 years ago when a fuel pump failure on takeoff resulted in an off field landing with no injuries and minor damage. This is not a record of dangerous and irresponsible flying practices. We are not sitting on our hands waiting for the ax to fall and are actively negotiating with the town. Only this one incident has been cited against us and one incident does not constitute a practice. Ed Harvey Firefly/447/IVO Palmer, MA ____________________________________________________________ Click to find great rates on home insurance, save big, shop here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m3GBL2oII4dy1MWd9pUHDONY0z0o6ZpD8lgcflTWrgk0W8t/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:12 AM PST US From: "pj.ladd" Subject: Kolb-List: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0 Hi All, dont know if this is going to work but here is an example of a crop circle in a field locally. Some people think it is the work of aliens(it appeared overnight) but I think it more likely to be the local Young Farmers Union, or the pub darts team. It supposed to represent the numbers in pi but it is complicated to explain. We had some Mandelbrot and Julian Equations last year. The things I can see from my Kolb. Cheers Pat The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free! http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:10 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle From: "lucien" NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > Jim > > It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for responding. > > The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to > teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and > inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to repair > one > if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get so > much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of > information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should > teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that should > be phased out. > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and reliability. The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several). That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this other "outdated" technology. I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous) idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a GPS vs other navigation methods thread). In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 barely works). Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll _make_ the sucker fit..... As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a LOC/GS. LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:47 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0 Patrick: What altitude were you when you took this photo from your Kolb? john h mkIII The things I can see from my Kolb. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:49 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff Lucien Hey join in. When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it. At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out. When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to use E-Mail. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> Jim >> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >> responding. >> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to >> repair >> one >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get >> so >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that >> should >> be phased out. >> > > > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. > > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several). > > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. > > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). > > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barely works). > > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... > > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a > LOC/GS. > > LS > > -------- > LS > FS II > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff From: knowvne@aol.com Rick =C2- I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points and Clock is telling me.. The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Distance and speed is right in your face.....=C2- BUT here again you=C2-should already have =C2-numbers before leaving the =C2-ground... If the GPS fails for what ever reason =C2-and your=C2-50 miles out =C2 -the last thing you want=C2- is a Panic attack at 3k...... =C2-Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ opt ions than the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) =C2-But landing in someone back yard to ask WHERE AM I =C2-just isnt cool hahahaha Mark -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff st.net>=C2- =C2- Lucien=C2- =C2- Hey join in.=C2- =C2- When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was VORs and ADFs.=C2- Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs with DME and a ADF.=C2- Believe me I used them and I was good at it.=C2- At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.=C2- At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? =C2-The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out.=C2- =C2- When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to use E-Mail.=C2- =C2- Rick Neilsen=C2- Redrive VW powered MKIIIC=C2- =C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" =C2- Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM=C2- Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle=C2- =C2- - >=C2- >=C2- > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:=C2- >> Jim=C2- >>=C2- >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >> responding.=C2- >>=C2- >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to =C2- >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and =C2- >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to >> repair=C2- >> one=C2- >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get >> so=C2- >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of=C2- >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should =C2- >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that >> should=C2- >> be phased out.=C2- >>=C2- >=C2- >=C2- > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability.=C2- >=C2- > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several).=C2- >=C2- > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.=C2- >=C2- > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).=C2- >=C2- > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barely works).=C2- >=C2- > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit.....=C2- >=C2- > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a > LOC/GS.=C2- >=C2- > LS=C2- >=C2- > --------=C2- > LS=C2- > FS II=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- > Read this topic online here:=C2- >=C2- > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- > =C2- ============C2- ============C2- ============C2- ============C2- =C2- =C2- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:51 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle About ADF's -- I think they're mainly used to listen to the ball games!-- they pick up commercial stations. And their range is WAY better than VOR's. You can home in on a commercial station near your destination airport from a hundred miles or more away. And in Canada I'd never be without one -- everything else is just too far apart. ADF is a good and proven system - don't sell it short. When/if unexpected fog sets in, or at night, it can save your butt. But I agree it's perhaps foolish to spend much time & money on them for 'normal' navigation, and requiring this is perhaps outdated. (Tho it's really pretty easy) On the other hand, ALL such knowledge will make you a better pilot. But the Gov't does things like this. I believe the ship-captain license still requires you to know the light code for minesweepers! (3 geen lites in a triangle) I for one have never even seen one underway, but have to know what to look for anyway. Get with it, Uncle Sam! do not archive On Jun 21, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > > > Jim > > It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for > responding. > > The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn > that to > teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and > inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money > to repair one > if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money > and get so > much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of > information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training > should > teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that > should be phased out. > >> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or >> localizer >> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final >> approach >> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it> > > You got me there. I never did a ILS or localizer approach. Never > got my IFR > rating either. My enjoyment of flying is visual, if I can't see the > ground I don't want to be flying. > > I assume that pilot weather reports are still coded and pilots > still need to > learn the coding system for the written exam. Again a waist of > time. Years > ago when there were teletype machines and fast data communication > was at 103 > baud there was a need for coded weather reports. Today with weather > briefers, decoded reports on DUAT and even more current real data > on cell phones there is no need to read coded data. The FAA should > take the money they spend on coding weather reports and spend it on > staying up to date. > > Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are > some things that have to be > taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we > can't try > to change it. > > Do not archive > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kmet" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > >> >> Rick, when on a checkride, its up to the examiner on some options to >> "check out" the applicant on, and other options, like navigation, >> some >> things are not an option. "Tracking a radio navigation aid" is >> one of >> those Have to do`s", according to the examiner I use. Any Piece of >> equipment that is in the plane that`s being used on the checkride >> is fair >> game, therefore, if it has a VOR & ADF in it, not being up to >> speed on >> it, at least minimally, is grounds for grounding, ( pun intended) >> It also depends on Cristal`s instructor`s relationship with the >> intended >> examiner, if the CFI knows it`s a "hotbutton" with that particular >> examiner, guess what, " Today we`re going to learn about VOR & ADF. >> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or >> localizer >> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final >> approach >> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it> >> Keep that Red VW Humming........ >> Jim Kmet >> Cookeville, TN >> CFII >> MK-3C (Flying) >> Kolbra (Under construction) >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" >> >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:57 PM >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >> >> >>> >>> >>> Cristal >>> >>> It's great to hear about getting your pilots license. It's a lot >>> of work. >>> Today we hear of to many that are continuing to fly illegally >>> without a >>> license. And a few that try to fly with almost no training and >>> hurt them >>> selves. Keep us informed of your progress. >>> >>> I wonder about your instructor wanting you to practice ADF and >>> VORs. It >>> surprises me that these instruments are still in airplanes. Are you >>> getting GPS training or glass cockpits? I suppose you still had >>> to learn >>> to decode weather briefings for your written. Check out Pilot- >>> Mycast for >>> your cell phone. There is everything you can get from a weather >>> briefer >>> direct, graphic and decoded. >>> >>> Also are you able to get flight training in something closer to a >>> Kolb. >>> Are you going to fly off some of your hours in your Kolb? Be real >>> careful >>> letting a GA instructor fly your plane or instruct in it. Pilots >>> used to >>> the big heavies don't do well in a Kolb. The CFI instructor for >>> Old Kolb >>> told me his most difficult students were long time GA pilots and >>> instructors. >>> >>> Rick Neilsen >>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "cristalclear13" >>> >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:07 PM >>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you all! I'm glad I have this group (and the handful of >>>> Waycross >>>> "airport bums" friends who encouraged me to start this path and >>>> have >>>> helped so much along the way) to share my steps of progress. >>>> Most of my >>>> friends and family are NOT pilots so they don't understand the >>>> challenges of each hurdle. With each accomplishment they ask, >>>> "So do >>>> you have your license yet?" >>>> >>>> I have some time off this week and am trying to fit in as much >>>> as I can. >>>> I completed my first solo cross country today. I flew to >>>> Vidalia from >>>> Waycross (57NM one way) in the Cessna 150. My instructor wanted >>>> me to >>>> practice using VOR and ADF along the way. I don't have those in >>>> my Kolb >>>> and besides I am still trying to make sure my Kolb is running >>>> right. >>>> I'll start a separate thread to talk about that. >>>> >>>> You guys are great encouragement! Thanks! (and Pat, I think >>>> that is >>>> the first time I've ever been told I look better than an old >>>> codger...I'm going to take that as a compliment [Laughing]) >>>> >>>> do not archive >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Cristal Waters >>>> Mark II Twinstar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188420#188420 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:11 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too) Anyone gonna fess up? do not archive On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: > Rick > I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... > Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my > compass check points > and Clock is telling me.. > > The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) > Distance and speed is > right in your face..... > > BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the > ground... > > If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the > last thing you want > is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ > options than > the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back > yard to ask > WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha > > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard & Martha Neilsen > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff > > > > Lucien > > Hey join in. > > When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic > navigation was VORs and ADFs. > Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual > VORs with DME and a ADF. > Believe me I used them and I was good at it. > > At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. > > At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a > distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? > > > The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you > a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach > GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the > power goes out. > > When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules > and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are > never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the > battles to get some people to use E-Mail. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > > > > > > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > >> Jim > >> > >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for > >> responding. > >> > >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn > that to > >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is > expensive and > >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the > money to >> repair > >> one > >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money > and get >> so > >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of > >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot > training should > >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment > that >> should > >> be phased out. > >> > > > > > > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really > understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped > up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take > some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really > appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. > > > > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for > quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it > as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means > among several). > > > > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate > things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need > to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. > > > > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and > dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into > here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). > > > > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I > could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat > (the one in my A22 > barely works). > > > > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to > me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... > > > > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an > ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just > a VOR and a > LOC/GS. > > > > LS > > > > -------- > > LS > > FS II > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > p://forums.matronics.com > ========== > blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:43 PM PST US From: "Jim Kmet" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are some things > that have to be > taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we can't try > to change it. Hey, no need for the apology, I rant all the time., heck, I agree with the comment,but like you say, the rule is the rule. Smiles, Jim do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > > Jim > > It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for > responding. > > The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to > teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and > inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to > repair one > if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get > so > much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of > information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should > teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that should > be phased out. > >> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or >> localizer >> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach >> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it> > > You got me there. I never did a ILS or localizer approach. Never got my > IFR > rating either. My enjoyment of flying is visual, if I can't see the ground > I don't want to be flying. > > I assume that pilot weather reports are still coded and pilots still need > to > learn the coding system for the written exam. Again a waist of time. Years > ago when there were teletype machines and fast data communication was at > 103 > baud there was a need for coded weather reports. Today with weather > briefers, decoded reports on DUAT and even more current real data on cell > phones there is no need to read coded data. The FAA should take the money > they spend on coding weather reports and spend it on staying up to date. > > Sorry for my rant, I know you don't make the rules and there are some > things that have to be > taught because it says so. That doesn't make it right or that we can't try > to change it. > > Do not archive > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Kmet" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > >> >> Rick, when on a checkride, its up to the examiner on some options to >> "check out" the applicant on, and other options, like navigation, some >> things are not an option. "Tracking a radio navigation aid" is one of >> those Have to do`s", according to the examiner I use. Any Piece of >> equipment that is in the plane that`s being used on the checkride is fair >> game, therefore, if it has a VOR & ADF in it, not being up to speed on >> it, at least minimally, is grounds for grounding, ( pun intended) >> It also depends on Cristal`s instructor`s relationship with the intended >> examiner, if the CFI knows it`s a "hotbutton" with that particular >> examiner, guess what, " Today we`re going to learn about VOR & ADF. >> Also, if Her airport is like mine, If you want to fly an ILS, or >> localizer >> approach, without an IFR GPS in the Plane, the NDB is the final approach >> fix, & gotta have one (ADF) to do it> >> Keep that Red VW Humming........ >> Jim Kmet >> Cookeville, TN >> CFII >> MK-3C (Flying) >> Kolbra (Under construction) >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:57 PM >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >> >> >>> >>> >>> Cristal >>> >>> It's great to hear about getting your pilots license. It's a lot of >>> work. >>> Today we hear of to many that are continuing to fly illegally without a >>> license. And a few that try to fly with almost no training and hurt them >>> selves. Keep us informed of your progress. >>> >>> I wonder about your instructor wanting you to practice ADF and VORs. It >>> surprises me that these instruments are still in airplanes. Are you >>> getting GPS training or glass cockpits? I suppose you still had to learn >>> to decode weather briefings for your written. Check out Pilot-Mycast for >>> your cell phone. There is everything you can get from a weather briefer >>> direct, graphic and decoded. >>> >>> Also are you able to get flight training in something closer to a Kolb. >>> Are you going to fly off some of your hours in your Kolb? Be real >>> careful >>> letting a GA instructor fly your plane or instruct in it. Pilots used to >>> the big heavies don't do well in a Kolb. The CFI instructor for Old Kolb >>> told me his most difficult students were long time GA pilots and >>> instructors. >>> >>> Rick Neilsen >>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "cristalclear13" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:07 PM >>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you all! I'm glad I have this group (and the handful of Waycross >>>> "airport bums" friends who encouraged me to start this path and have >>>> helped so much along the way) to share my steps of progress. Most of >>>> my >>>> friends and family are NOT pilots so they don't understand the >>>> challenges of each hurdle. With each accomplishment they ask, "So do >>>> you have your license yet?" >>>> >>>> I have some time off this week and am trying to fit in as much as I >>>> can. >>>> I completed my first solo cross country today. I flew to Vidalia from >>>> Waycross (57NM one way) in the Cessna 150. My instructor wanted me to >>>> practice using VOR and ADF along the way. I don't have those in my >>>> Kolb >>>> and besides I am still trying to make sure my Kolb is running right. >>>> I'll start a separate thread to talk about that. >>>> >>>> You guys are great encouragement! Thanks! (and Pat, I think that is >>>> the first time I've ever been told I look better than an old >>>> codger...I'm going to take that as a compliment [Laughing]) >>>> >>>> do not archive >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Cristal Waters >>>> Mark II Twinstar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188420#188420 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:33 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff From: "planecrazzzy" For some reason during my flight back from a Fly-in today... My GPS was shutting off....??? I checked the connections but it did it again... I do fly with current charts...and I have them in a plastic Sleeve so they don't blow around.... But it got me thinking...What if I'm on one of my longer cross country flights... .. Glad I had the training while getting my Private ticket... .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN .. .. .. -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188949#188949 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/my_x_country_flight_to_baraboo_wi_001_202.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:53 PM PST US From: "Jim Kmet" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I have ne ver been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my location", & usin g all my "tools, have confirmed my position, but never been "lost". Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Kinne To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having c ompass, clock & some other stuff too) Anyone gonna fess up? do not archive On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: Rick I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points and Clock is telling me.. The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Dist ance and speed is right in your face..... BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the gro und... If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the last thing you want is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ opt ions than the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back yard to ask WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha Mark -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff comcast.net> Lucien Hey join in. When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation wa s VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs w ith DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it. At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance i f it has DME but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a gr aphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out. When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfo rtable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some peop le to use E-Mail. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" To: Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> Jim >> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >> responding. >> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn tha t to >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive a nd >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to >> repair >> one >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get >> so >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training sh ould >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that >> should >> be phased out. >> > > > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand t he > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reli ability. > > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several). > > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate thin gs > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. > > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dange rous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). > > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > pr actical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barely works). > > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... > > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Ma ny > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a > LOC/GS. > > LS > > -------- > LS > FS II > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 > > > > > > > > > > =========== et="_blank">http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List =========== p://forums.matronics.com =========== blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con tribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:49 PM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff Jim and all Reminds me of story attributed to Daniel Boone..Someone asked him after his long exploration of the wilds of Kenturcky ..if he had ever been lost...He responded : "no, but I was bewildered once" . :-) Herb At 05:11 PM 6/21/2008, you wrote: >Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I >have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my >location", & using all my "tools, have confirmed my position, but >never been "lost". Jim >----- Original Message ----- >From: Russ Kinne >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:23 PM >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff > >This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will >admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? >(Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too) >Anyone gonna fess up? >do not archive > > >On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: > >>Rick >>I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... >>Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my >>compass check points >>and Clock is telling me.. >> >>The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) >>Distance and speed is >>right in your face..... >> >>BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the ground... >> >>If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the >>last thing you want >>is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ >>options than >>the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back yard to ask >>WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha >> >> >>Mark >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Richard & Martha Neilsen >><NeilsenRM@comcast.net> >>To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm >>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff >> >><NeilsenRM@comcast.net> >> >>Lucien >> >>Hey join in. >> >>When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic >>navigation was VORs and ADFs. >>Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual >>VORs with DME and a ADF. >>Believe me I used them and I was good at it. >> >>At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. >> >>At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a >>distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? >> >> >> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you >> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach >> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the >> power goes out. >> >>When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules >>and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are >>never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the >>battles to get some people to use E-Mail. >> >>Rick Neilsen >>Redrive VW powered MKIIIC >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" >><lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> >>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com> >>Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM >>Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >> >> <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> >> > >> > >> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks >> for >> responding. >> >> >> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to >> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and >> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the >> money to >> repair >> >> one >> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less >> money and get >> so >> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of >> >> information at your fingertips It would seem that pilot training should >> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment >> that >> should >> >> be phased out. >> >> >> > >> > >> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really >> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have >> cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it >> does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that >> you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. >> > >> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for >> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it >> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means >> among several). >> > >> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate >> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need >> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. >> > >> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and >> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into >> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). >> > >> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot >> more > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, >> if I could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a >> heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barely works). >> > >> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it >> to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... >> > >> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an >> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with >> just a VOR and a > LOC/GS. >> > >> > LS >> > >> > -------- >> > LS >> > FS II >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>========== >>et="_blank">http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> >>========== >>p://forums.matronics.com >>========== >>blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >>========== >> >> >> >>---------- >>Get >>the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! >> >> >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> >>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > >p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > >ics.com > >matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:55 PM PST US From: "beauford T" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff It doesn't just happen to Kolbers, Brother Kinne....one fine summer Sunday morning in 1955 an Eastern Air Lines Martin 404 did that very thing at Bowman Field in Louisville... hazy, milky calm morning... he was talking to Standiford tower 5 miles away, but landed at Bowman... I heard the commotion and looked up when he reversed the props to stop it... I stood there with my skinny lineboy mouth hanging open as he taxiied up... the "company" refused to let him take off again and hop over to Standiford... he had to shut 'er down in front of the old airline terminal and I chocked him... in about 2 hours they sent busses to get 'em all... I am pretty sure he had plenty of compasses, clocks and no tellin' what all in there... it sat there all that day and a crew came to fetch it the next morning. Paperwork...? Do Not archive Beauford FF076 ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Kinne To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too) Anyone gonna fess up? do not archive On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: Rick I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points and Clock is telling me.. The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Distance and speed is right in your face..... BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the ground... If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the last thing you want is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ options than the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back yard to ask WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha Mark -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff Lucien Hey join in. When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it. At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out. When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to use E-Mail. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" To: Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> Jim >> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >> responding. >> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to >> repair >> one >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get >> so >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that >> should >> be phased out. >> > > > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. > > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means among several). > > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. > > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). > > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barely works). > > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... > > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a > LOC/GS. > > LS > > -------- > LS > FS II > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 > > > > > > > > > > =========== et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List =========== p://forums.matronics.com =========== blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:22 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff Flying back from an aeronca convention at Middletown, Ohio in the mid 80s with a friend/passenger. Lovely day, flying high enuff to see landmarks, yakking it up.... Funny thing about those little towns in Ohio, they all look the same. Have to admit I got somewhat behind on my navigation and wasn't sure where I was on the marks-a-lot line. Well that won't do, I like to be on top of things even if it's perfect flying conditions. About then I saw a runway below and headed down. Taxied up, and sectional in hand asked the folks standing there where I was. Great trip, tailwinds at 7000 both ways, but my bud had some evil gas in the tent one night. Shouldn't a gone across the street to that redneck bar. BB do not archive On 21, Jun 2008, at 4:23 PM, Russ Kinne wrote: > This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will > admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? > (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too) > Anyone gonna fess up? > do not archive > > > On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: > >> Rick >> I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... >> Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my >> compass check points >> and Clock is telling me.. >> >> The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) >> Distance and speed is >> right in your face..... >> >> BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving >> the ground... >> >> If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the >> last thing you want >> is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more >> LZ options than >> the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back >> yard to ask >> WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard & Martha Neilsen >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff >> >> >> >> Lucien >> >> Hey join in. >> >> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic >> navigation was VORs and ADFs. >> Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual >> VORs with DME and a ADF. >> Believe me I used them and I was good at it. >> >> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. >> >> At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a >> distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? >> >> >> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you >> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach >> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the >> power goes out. >> >> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules >> and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people >> are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the >> battles to get some people to use E-Mail. >> >> Rick Neilsen >> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" >> >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >> >> >> > >> > >> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks >> for >> responding. >> >> >> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to >> learn that to >> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is >> expensive and >> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the >> money to >> repair >> >> one >> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less >> money and get >> so >> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of >> >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot >> training should >> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment >> that >> should >> >> be phased out. >> >> >> > >> > >> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really >> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have >> cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it >> does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that >> you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. >> > >> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for >> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it >> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means >> among several). >> > >> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate >> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need >> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. >> > >> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and >> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into >> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). >> > >> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more >> > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I >> could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat >> (the one in my A22 > barely works). >> > >> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it >> to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... >> > >> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an >> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with >> just a VOR and a > LOC/GS. >> > >> > LS >> > >> > -------- >> > LS >> > FS II >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ========== >> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> p://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http:// >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff From: "lucien" NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > Lucien > > Hey join in. > > When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was > VORs and ADFs. Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had > dual VORs with DME and a ADF. Believe me I used them and I was good at it. > At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. At best > a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME > but Exactly where are you? The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. > A GPS gives you a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just > teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power > goes out. > > When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type > writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortable > with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to > use E-Mail. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > --- Well I'm ambivalent about GPS personally. I'm all for anything that reduces pilot workload, but at the same time I get really nervous hanging multi-thousand buck airplanes on little crappy electronic devices (especially digital ones). Note tongue is a little in cheek here but.... It's sort of like the debate about putting new technology on engines - electronic fuel injection, electronic spark advance and all this stuff. Fact is, you don't need 95% of that stuff in an aircraft applications for a variety of reasons. A good friend of mine back in TX once told me that the Lycosaurs and continentals were so exactingly refined for aviation that they havn't changed since the late 1940's. Or was it that they quit adding new features in the 1940's and then it's merely been refining them for aviation that's gone on since... Can't remember, but I think his point was quite well made ;). I'd say CDI is the best innovation that's come to aircraft engines in the last 50 years and really the only one that truly improves an a/c engine's situation. This may or may not be true of GPS in avionics. GPS has lot of downsides - it's little crappy digital semiconductors, 100 bucks worth of parts being sold for 100 times that with the single-point failure problem in most cases, the GPS is owned by the military and they frequently intentionally degrade the signal (like they do here) with very little notice and on and on. For reasons like this, I don't like the idea of GPS as _sole_ means of aviation. I think it's fine as one of several and it's absolutely grand in that regard. It adds so much simplicity to navigation and helps so much with situational awareness and so on. But I'm not convinced that it's reliable enough to justify pitching the "old technology" out altogether. An analogue VOR or even two in good working condition can by itself get you out of all kinds of jams even absent anything else (This is how I found myself again on my private long xcountry for example when I got lost). I don't think FnAA agrees tho and they seem to be pushing it as sole means. So who knows. Like I said, if I could fit a good VOR in the titan I'd definitely install one... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188966#188966 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:42 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff From: "planecrazzzy" I have Nav/Com.... it has VOR....Which is a good backup for my GPS .. .. Gotta Fly... .. .. .. [quote="lucien"] NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > Lucien > > > Like I said, if I could fit a good VOR in the titan I'd definitely install one... > > LS -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188969#188969 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:09 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff just a humorous comment -- many Bahamian natives fish in small smacks, rocks for ballast, no compass, no lights, no nothing. Good sailors, but the navigation is near-nonexistent. After a storm, when they fetch up on an unknown coast or harbor, their first call is "HELLO DIS PLACE' -- then someone ashore will yell "WELCOME TO ABACO", and then they'll say "HELLOOOO ABACO!" and go on from there. It works. do not archive On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: > Rick > I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... > Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my > compass check points > and Clock is telling me.. > > The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) > Distance and speed is > right in your face..... > > BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving the > ground... > > If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the > last thing you want > is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ > options than > the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back > yard to ask > WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha > > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard & Martha Neilsen > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff > > > > Lucien > > Hey join in. > > When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic > navigation was VORs and ADFs. > Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual > VORs with DME and a ADF. > Believe me I used them and I was good at it. > > At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. > > At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a > distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? > > > The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you > a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach > GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the > power goes out. > > When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules > and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are > never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the > battles to get some people to use E-Mail. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle > > > > > > > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: > >> Jim > >> > >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for > >> responding. > >> > >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn > that to > >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is > expensive and > >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the > money to >> repair > >> one > >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money > and get >> so > >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of > >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot > training should > >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment > that >> should > >> be phased out. > >> > > > > > > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really > understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped > up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it does take > some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really > appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. > > > > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for > quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it > as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means > among several). > > > > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate > things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need > to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. > > > > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and > dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into > here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). > > > > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I > could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat > (the one in my A22 > barely works). > > > > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to > me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... > > > > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an > ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just > a VOR and a > LOC/GS. > > > > LS > > > > -------- > > LS > > FS II > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > p://forums.matronics.com > ========== > blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:35 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff Thanx Jim. I can't make that claim! On Jun 21, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Jim Kmet wrote: > Russ, I had about 450 hours when I got my CFI. I can honestly say I > have never been Lost. I can also say, that I have "questioned my > location", & using all my "tools, have confirmed my position, but > never been "lost". Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Russ Kinne > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:23 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff > > This thread is getting interesting -- OK now, how many of you will > admit to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? > (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too) > Anyone gonna fess up? > do not archive > > > On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: > >> Rick >> I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... >> Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my >> compass check points >> and Clock is telling me.. >> >> The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) >> Distance and speed is >> right in your face..... >> >> BUT here again you should already have numbers before leaving >> the ground... >> >> If the GPS fails for what ever reason and your 50 miles out the >> last thing you want >> is a Panic attack at 3k...... Course in a Kolb you do have more >> LZ options than >> the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) But landing in someone back >> yard to ask >> WHERE AM I just isnt cool hahahaha >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard & Martha Neilsen >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff >> >> >> >> Lucien >> >> Hey join in. >> >> When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic >> navigation was VORs and ADFs. >> Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual >> VORs with DME and a ADF. >> Believe me I used them and I was good at it. >> >> At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less. >> >> At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a >> distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? >> >> >> The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you >> a graphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach >> GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the >> power goes out. >> >> When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules >> and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people >> are never comfortable with anything new. You wouldn't believe the >> battles to get some people to use E-Mail. >> >> Rick Neilsen >> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" >> >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle >> >> >> > >> > >> > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks >> for >> responding. >> >> >> >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to >> learn that to >> >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is >> expensive and >> >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the >> money to >> repair >> >> one >> >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less >> money and get >> so >> >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of >> >> information at your fingertips It would seem that pilot >> training should >> >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment >> that >> should >> >> be phased out. >> >> >> > >> > >> > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really >> understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have >> cropped up recently. It's > actually not "inaccurate", true it >> does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that >> you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliability. >> > >> > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for >> quite a > while now. The key point being whether to start using it >> as the _sole_ > means of navigation (rather than as just one means >> among several). >> > >> > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate >> things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need >> to learn all this > other "outdated" technology. >> > >> > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and >> dangerous) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into >> here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread). >> > >> > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more >> > practical, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I >> could fit > a decent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat >> (the one in my A22 > barely works). >> > >> > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it >> to me. I'll > _make_ the sucker fit..... >> > >> > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an >> ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with >> just a VOR and a > LOC/GS. >> > >> > LS >> > >> > -------- >> > LS >> > FS II >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ========== >> et="_blank">http://www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> p://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http:// >> www.matronics..com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ics.com > matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff From: knowvne@aol.com On my second Solo XC I land at a little dirt strip so to find out where I wa s...=C2- BUT I wouldn't have=C2-landed had they painted the name in the Dirt ... Oh and I wasn't lost hahahaha Never have landed at the Wrong Airport..=C2- Mark -----Original Message----- From: Russ Kinne Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff This thread is getting interesting -- OK =C2-now, how many of you will adm it to landing at one airport, thinking you were at another? (Despite having compass, clock & some other stuff too) Anyone gonna fess up? do not archive On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 PM, knowvne@aol.com wrote: Rick =C2- I'm so glad you mention the Compass and Clock... Personally I view the GPS as secondary confirmation to what my compass check points and Clock is telling me.. The GPS is also Great for helping you figure fuel requirements 8-) Distance and speed is right in your face.....=C2- BUT here again you=C2-should already have =C2-numbers before leaving the =C2-ground... If the GPS fails for what ever reason =C2-and your=C2-50 miles out =C2 -the last thing you want=C2- is a Panic attack at 3k...... =C2-Course in a Kolb you do have more LZ opt ions than the GA experience gives ya.... 8-) =C2-But landing in someone back yard to ask WHERE AM I =C2-just isnt cool hahahaha Mark -----Original Message----- From: Richard & Martha Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Why Teach Out Dated Stuff ast.net>=C2- =C2- Lucien=C2- =C2- Hey join in.=C2- =C2- When I got my private ticket all there was for electronic navigation was VO Rs and ADFs.=C2- Later I joined a flying club with three planes that all had dual VORs with D ME and a ADF.=C2- Believe me I used them and I was good at it.=C2- At the time it was super. But the GPS offers so much more for less.=C2- At best a VOR will give you a radial off a point and maybe a distance if it has DME but Exactly where are you? =C2-The further you are from a VOR the worse it gets. A GPS gives you a gr aphic and says you are right here. I'm not saying just teach GPS also teach compass and clock (real navigation) for when the power goes out.=C2- =C2- When I was working in the computer field I had to drag slide rules and type writers out of peoples hands all the time. Some people are never comfortabl e with anything new. You wouldn't believe the battles to get some people to use E-Mail.=C2- =C2- Rick Neilsen=C2- Redrive VW powered MKIIIC=C2- =C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" =C2 - To: =C2- Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:40 AM=C2- Subject: Kolb-List: Re: One less hurdle=C2- =C2- - >=C2- >=C2- > NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:=C2- >> Jim=C2- >>=C2- >> It is so great that we have such talent in our group. Thanks for >> resp onding.=C2- >>=C2- >> The point I was trying to make is that there is so much to learn that to =C2- >> teach VORs and ADFs is really a waste. This equipment is expensive and =C2- >> inaccurate. No one in there right mind would even spend the money to >> repair=C2- >> one=C2- >> if it quit working when they could purchase a GPS for less money and get >> so=C2- >> much more. Its not just navigation accuracy its also the wealth of=C2 - >> information at your fingertips. It would seem that pilot training should =C2- >> teach for the current and future not some antiquated equipment that >> s hould=C2- >> be phased out.=C2- >>=C2- >=C2- >=C2- > Don't mean to barge in on this thread but I don't really understand the > animosity towards VOR's that seems to have cropped up recently. It's > act ually not "inaccurate", true it does take some skill to learn to use it > at first, but after that you really appreciate its simplicity and > reliabilit y.=C2- >=C2- > The debate about GPS is contentious and has been going on for quite a > w hile now. The key point being whether to start using it as the _sole_ > mean s of navigation (rather than as just one means among several).=C2- >=C2- > That appears to be part of what's behind the effort to eliminate things > like VOR's. Just teach how to use a GPS and then no need to learn all this > other "outdated" technology.=C2- >=C2- > I may be kinda old-school, but I think that's a ridiculous (and dangerous ) > idea for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here (unless we want a > GPS vs other navigation methods thread).=C2- >=C2- > In small planes like ours, of course, GPS tends to be a lot more > practi cal, for size and cost reasons usually. But truth is, if I could fit > a dec ent King VOR in my titan I'd do it in a heartbeat (the one in my A22 > barel y works).=C2- >=C2- > Or heck, any of you guys throwing away your old VOR's, give it to me. I'l l > _make_ the sucker fit.....=C2- >=C2- > As for the ILS, I don't recall too many ILS's that require an ADF. Many > require DME, but I've seen some you can shoot with just a VOR and a > LOC/G S.=C2- >=C2- > LS=C2- >=C2- > --------=C2- > LS=C2- > FS II=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- > Read this topic online here:=C2- >=C2- > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188900#188900=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- >=C2- > =C2- ============C2- et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List=C2- ============C2- p://forums.matronics.com=C2- ============C2- blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2- ============C2- =C2- =C2- Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cont ribution ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:08 PM PST US From: "William and/or Justina Fyfe" Subject: Kolb-List: Who is going to be at Arlington? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:27 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: reviews As I remember, there are 4 levels of learning. Rote, Insight, Perception and finally Reflex. I am an old, old flight instructor who learned in a tail dragger. One can learn with an instructor or one can learn without an instructor. A rusty old pilot in a new plane maybe just as prone to accident as a novice. I taxied my Kolb Mark III Classic for about 3 or more hours before I even lifted the tail at high speed. After all, over 1000 hours of labor and $18,000 dollars of investment, gets ones attention. How would one know how much taxi time is required before trying to crow hop? It is somewhere between Perception and Reflex. The more that one does not want to wreck his airplane, the more he will want to achieve accurate and quick reflexs. One other thing: If one gets confident enough to leave the airport, DO NOT just go up and fly around. Make a plan to fly somewhere and do it. Such as: 5 - 10 pattern flights in a row without touching wheels to the ground. In othe r! words, get comfortable with the approach before trying a landing. Have an eventless flight. Vic ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:19 PM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Who is going to be at Arlington? I will be there. Arty Trost Sandy, Oregon www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com "Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." --- On Sat, 6/21/08, William and/or Justina Fyfe wrote: > From: William and/or Justina Fyfe > Subject: Kolb-List: Who is going to be at Arlington? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 5:29 PM > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.