Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - Re: kolb sighting/Jabiru Powered MKIII (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:34 AM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (grantr)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb sighting/Jabiru Powered MKIII (gary aman)
4. 06:32 AM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (grantr)
5. 07:22 AM - Oshkosh 2008 (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
6. 07:49 AM - Re: Oshkosh 2008 (John Hauck)
7. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (Jack B. Hart)
8. 08:05 AM - Re: static thrust question (gliderx5@comcast.net)
9. 08:12 AM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (George Alexander)
10. 09:14 AM - 2008 Father's Day Gathering at the Kolb Farm (George T. Alexander, Jr.)
11. 09:50 AM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (JetPilot)
12. 09:55 AM - Re: Flying into Dust Devils (JetPilot)
13. 09:55 AM - Re: 2008 Father's Day Gathering at the Kolb Farm (John Hauck)
14. 10:04 AM - Re: Oshkosh 2008 (Jim Dunn)
15. 10:07 AM - Re: Nauga 2008 (JetPilot)
16. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (Jack B. Hart)
17. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Flying into Dust Devils (John Hauck)
18. 12:00 PM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (grantr)
19. 12:01 PM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (grantr)
20. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (robert bean)
21. 12:24 PM - Fantastic as usual !! (TK)
22. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (Larry Cottrell)
23. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Nauga 2008 (possums)
24. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: Nauga 2008 (gary aman)
25. 06:37 PM - New Battery Holder in FireFly (Jack B. Hart)
26. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: Nauga 2008 (possums)
27. 07:50 PM - Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II (lucien)
28. 09:37 PM - Re: Oshkosh 2008 (DAquaNut@aol.com)
29. 10:56 PM - Electrical question - shielding (Michael Adams)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: kolb sighting/Jabiru Powered MKIII |
Gaman and Ricochet,
It appears that in addition to slow flight contest, short landing and take-off
contests, we are now competing for most deaf Kolb aviator.
For the record, you guys who are hearing challenged or impaired, you're gonna have
a long ways to go to beat me in this regard. I am 100% deaf in both ears,
but my bi-lateral cochlear implants enable me to converse with ATC pretty well
and when I want to fly quietly, all I have to do is turn off the gadgets!
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist.
George Carlin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193558#193558
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
> The very poor climb rate with the Genrac engine leaves you very vulnerable on
takeoff, if you lose the engine on takeoff you will find yourself much lower,
and with less landing options than you would with the 503 or with the HKS.
>
Not true. Either engine could stop at the same altitude. Climb rate just changes
the time it takes to get to a certain altitude. An engine out at 300 feet is
an engine out at 300 feet. [Wink]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193567#193567
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: kolb sighting/Jabiru Powered MKIII |
Thom,=0A You win.=0ADo not archive.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AF
rom: Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent:
Friday, July 18, 2008 7:13:48 AM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Re: kolb sighting/J
ddletr@gmail.com>=0A=0AGaman and Ricochet,=0A=0AIt appears that in addition
to slow flight contest, short landing and take-off contests, we are now co
mpeting for most deaf Kolb aviator. =0A=0AFor the record, you guys who are
hearing challenged or impaired, you're gonna have a long ways to go to beat
me in this regard. I am 100% deaf in both ears, but my bi-lateral cochlear
implants enable me to converse with ATC pretty well and when I want to fly
quietly, all I have to do is turn off the gadgets! =0A=0Ado not archive=0A
=0A--------=0AThom Riddle=0AN221FA Allegro 2000 912UL=0AN197BG FS1/447=0A--
------------------=0A=93Scratch any cynic,=94 he said, =93and you=92ll find
a disappointed idealist.=94 =0AGeorge Carlin=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic
online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193558#193
-========================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
Here is my argument that having more engine power will not necessarily save you.
Say we have 2 Kolb firestars one with a 503 and one with the Generac.
Plane 1 with rotax climbs at 600 feet per min
Plane 2 with Generac climbs at 300 feet per min.
Flight conditions:
Runway is 3600 feet long with 80 foot trees 150 off the end.
Ground/ climb speed is 60mph
Glide ratio is 4:1
Engine quits 15, 20, 30 and 40 seconds after takeoff.
At 30 seconds the 503 would put you in the trees and the less powerful engine would
allow you to land on the runway.
See the attached chart.
I really over analyze things sometimes [Rolling Eyes]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193584#193584
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/landing_table_127.jpg
Message 5
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I will be at AirVenture "Oshkosh" camping with my plane all week. Is
anyone else going to be there?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh 2008 |
Hi Rick:
Have fun and have a good flight to OSH.
Miss P'fer and I will not make OSH this year.
Tell all the gang I said howdy.
john h
mkIII
I will be at AirVenture "Oshkosh" camping with my plane all week. Is anyo
ne else going to be there?
Rick Neilsen
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
Grant,
At 30 seconds the 503, by your data, would be at 300 feet agl. At this height,
it may be possible to do a 180 and get back to the runway. ???
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN.
do not archive
At 06:30 AM 7/18/08 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Here is my argument that having more engine power will not necessarily save you.
>Say we have 2 Kolb firestars one with a 503 and one with the Generac.
>Plane 1 with rotax climbs at 600 feet per min
>Plane 2 with Generac climbs at 300 feet per min.
>Flight conditions:
>Runway is 3600 feet long with 80 foot trees 150 off the end.
>Ground/ climb speed is 60mph
>Glide ratio is 4:1
>Engine quits 15, 20, 30 and 40 seconds after takeoff.
>At 30 seconds the 503 would put you in the trees and the less powerful engine
would allow you to land on the runway.
>See the attached chart.
>
>I really over analyze things sometimes [Rolling Eyes]
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: static thrust question |
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
Grant:
Your statement from your earlier post said it all.....
grantr wrote:
> An engine out at 300 feet is an engine out at 300 feet..
Then you wrote.......
grantr wrote:
> Here is my argument that having more engine power will not necessarily save you.
>
>
>
> I really over analyze things sometimes [Rolling Eyes]
Next you need to plug in a reliability factor to determine at what point each engine
"might" fail after going to WOT. Don't forget to consider OAT, DA, age
of fuel, age of pilot (reflex time), etc.... etc.... etc....
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193611#193611
Message 10
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| Subject: | 2008 Father's Day Gathering at the Kolb Farm |
Kolb Listers:
The material gathered at the 2008 Father's Day Gathering has been posted to
the web site:
<http://gtalexander.home.att.net/> http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Click on the "Homer's Fan Club" link to view all the material from the 4
times that this event has occurred. (I have reorganized the navigation from
previous years. Hope it makes it easier to view.)
Once again, on behalf of those who were fortunate enough to attend, I would
like to thank the entire Kolb family for their hospitality. As in the past,
just being there is an experience that would be hard to match. The welcoming
atmosphere provided by the Kolb family makes it really special.
Also would like to thank, Terry Frantz for his efforts in coordinating the
event. Contributors of images in this year's edition include Marcus Kolb,
Russ Kinne and Dave Starbuck.
If any of you have any comments concerning the web site, please let me know.
If there are errors of commission or omission in the material, let me know
that too and I will try to correct them.
_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
<http://gtalexander.home.att.net/> http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
grantr wrote:
>
> > The very poor climb rate with the Genrac engine leaves you very vulnerable
on takeoff, if you lose the engine on takeoff you will find yourself much lower,
and with less landing options than you would with the 503 or with the HKS.
> >
>
>
> Not true. Either engine could stop at the same altitude. Climb rate just changes
the time it takes to get to a certain altitude. An engine out at 300 feet
is an engine out at 300 feet. [Wink]
You are wrong about this Grant R,
With a good climb rate, if your engine quits over the end of the runway you are
much higher than you would be with less climb. Lets say your engine quits
at the end of the runway, would you rather be 200 feet high, or 600 feet high
? That extra altitude would make all the difference in the world in landing
options and safety.
To make matters even worse with a low climb rate, you are totally Dependant on
your engine running for a much longer time to achieve a safe altitude if your
engine quits. Lets say you want at least 500 feet AGL to have a chance at being
able to make it to a good place for an engine out landing. With good climb
performance, you may only need your engine to run perfectly for 30 seconds to
be at 500 feet and have good landing options. With poor performance, you are
totally Dependant on the engine running for over a minute to get to the same
altitude. Getting to altitude quickly is much safer.
Lastly on power, having lots power to get out of trouble quickly is a proven safety
advantage. There are a million unexpected things that can happen in aviation
where having lots of power can save you. No one ever plans needing lots
power to save their butts, but schit happens.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193634#193634
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Flying into Dust Devils |
When I saw him get out of the helicopter with the engine and rotor RPM high, I
thought it was going to be one of those incredible accident videos like you see
on TV.
I don't fly helicopters, but it just seems like really bad judgment to just get
out and have no one at the controls with the Rotor RPM that high...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193636#193636
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 2008 Father's Day Gathering at the Kolb Farm |
George A:
Thank you very much for the major effort you make to share with the rest of
us folks.
It is especially nice to be able to participate in activities that we can n
ot make in person.
john h
mkIII
The material gathered at the 2008 Father's Day Gathering has been posted
to the web site:
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
_________________
George Alexander
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh 2008 |
I'll be there in my 1948 Bonanza, arriving with B2OSH Sat, leaving Thu.
Jim Dunn
Firefly
N. Idaho
---------------------
I will be at AirVenture "Oshkosh" camping with my plane all week. Is
anyone else going to be there?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 15
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John Hauck wrote:
> Hi Gang:
>
> Gary Haley's MKIII.
> http://home.elmore.rr.com/jhauck/Nauga%202008/__06.JPG
>
>
Anyone know how to get a hold of Gary Haley ? I really like his dual tail wire
setup, I already have the hardware to do this and would like some information
on it.
Thanks,
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193641#193641
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
At 09:48 AM 7/18/08 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Lastly on power, having lots power to get out of trouble quickly is a proven safety
advantage. There are a million unexpected things that can happen in aviation
where having lots of power can save you. No one ever plans needing lots
power to save their butts, but schit happens.
>
Mike,
If you watch the FAA Accident and Incident Reports, one can not help but
notice that the majority of fatal EXPERIMENTAL aircraft accidents are
associated with the newer big engine, high speed kit planes. Usually a big
engine is associated with higher cruise, wing loading and stall speed. All
of these require greater pilot skill level and contribute to higher kinetic
energies that must be carefully dissipated before contacting the
ground.
So, if the power quits, it is much nicer to approach the ground or a tree at
30 mph than say 55 mph with a mass of 500 lbs as apposed to 1,000 pounds.
The kinetic energy that must be dissipated in the first case is 0.15 times
less than in the second case.
In either case all of this indicates that one should not mess around close
to the ground.
Fly safe.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flying into Dust Devils |
> I don't fly helicopters, but it just seems like really bad judgment to
just get out and have no one at the controls with the Rotor RPM that high...
>
> Mike
Mike B:
I'm a little rusty with rotary wing procedures. I got out of my last one 32
years ago.
However, normal procedure is friction down the cyclic and collective, after
the throttle is rolled off to flight idle and the tip path plane (main
rotor) is leveled, I think, with the terrain. Learned that 40 years ago,
and can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning.
john h
mkIII
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
> At 30 seconds the 503, by your data, would be at 300 feet agl. At this height,
it may be possible to do a 180 and get back to the runway. ???
>
>
That seems too low to do a 180 by the time you get setup for an approach.
> With a good climb rate, if your engine quits over the end of the runway you are
much higher than you would be with less climb. Lets say your engine quits at
the end of the runway, would you rather be 200 feet high, or 600 feet high ?
That extra altitude would make all the difference in the world in landing options
and safety.
I do not disagree with this. However as I pointed out in my post at a certain point
more power could put you in the trees where less power could have allowed
a landing on the remaining runway.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193663#193663
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
> With good climb performance, you may only need your engine to run perfectly for
30 seconds to be at 500 feet and have good landing options. With poor performance,
you are totally Dependant on the engine running for over a minute to get
to the same altitude. Getting to altitude quickly is much safer.
True unless you are doing a steep rocketship climb out and the engine quits at
low altitude and a high nose up attitude. That could lead to a deep stall and
possibly a lawn dart. As you know a very steep climb out at low altitude can result
in a deep stall and a unrecoverable dive into the ground if the engine fails
at the right time.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193664#193664
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
On 18, Jul 2008, at 2:40 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
> In either case all of this indicates that one should not mess
> around close
> to the ground.
I regretfully have to agree although the delights of low and slow are
most entertaining.
BB
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Fantastic as usual !! |
George,,
Thank you again for documenting our get together at Homer and Clara's
farm this year. Your doing this gives special meaning and allows us to
remember the good time had by all there. If you had not taken upon
yourself to do this from the first one, we would be the poorer for it.
I hope you had an enjoyable time there also!!!
One very Super Web Site!!!!!
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II
>
>
>> At 30 seconds the 503, by your data, would be at 300 feet agl. At this
>> height, it may be possible to do a 180 and get back to the runway. ???
>>
>>
>
> That seems too low to do a 180 by the time you get setup for an approach.
>
>
Gang,
I have already typed a reply to this thread once, and deleted it thinking
that it would die and wasn't worth the effort to prolong it. I guess I was
wrong, so here goes. My Firestar II weighing 401 empty, and 600 plus with me
and gas can make a 180 with no more than 40 feet altitude loss. That is with
a stopped engine and VG's of course. At anything higher than 200 feet, I
would not hesitate to turn back.
Everyone has their opinion of course, and welcome to them, but for me -
give me more power! Lots of it in fact, I will find some way to deal with
it.
Larry C
do not archive
Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'... but it's only a 'penny for
your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?
Message 23
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At 01:05 PM 7/18/2008, you wrote:
>Anyone know how to get a hold of Gary Haley ? I really like his
>dual tail wire setup, I already have the hardware to do this and
>would like some information on it.
>
>Thanks,
It's pretty simple to do.
You can do it like this - with or without the curves in the stabilizers.
You will, of course, need to put sleeves where the bolts go thru before
you build the tail. - you will have to slide them in place inside the
tubes before you rivet things together.
Message 24
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The curved tubes really look good on the horizontal.Nice touch.
----- Original Message ----
From: possums <possums@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 8:25:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Nauga 2008
At 01:05 PM 7/18/2008, you wrote:
>Anyone know how to get a hold of Gary Haley ? I really like his
>dual tail wire setup, I already have the hardware to do this and
>would like some information on it.
>
>Thanks,
It's pretty simple to do.
You can do it like this - with or without the curves in the stabilizers.
You will, of course, need to put sleeves where the bolts go thru before
you build the tail. - you will have to slide them in place inside the
tubes before you rivet things together.
Message 25
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| Subject: | New Battery Holder in FireFly |
Kolbers,
When I went to change out an old battery on the FireFly, I ran into some
problems. I decided to try and come up with something simpler and lighter.
On my second attempt I came up with the following:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly142.html
Ended up saving a little over a half a pound, and so I recovered my added
weight for strengthening the landing gear.
Flew the first time in a month today. It was just great. If I am lucky, I
will fly tomorrow morning to my EAA Chapter 373 meeting in Hagarstown.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 26
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At 09:11 PM 7/18/2008, you wrote:
>The curved tubes really look good on the horizontal.Nice touch.
Thanks, but idea wasn't mine, I stole it from some else.
do not archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Generac engine test data on my FS II |
lcottrell wrote:
>
> Everyone has their opinion of course, and welcome to them, but for me -
> give me more power! Lots of it in fact, I will find some way to deal with
> it.
>
> Larry C
> do not archive
>
> Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'... but it's only a 'penny for
> your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?
My one cent....
I like lots of power, but I don't think low climb rates automatically mean reduced
safety. Here at my 7000' altitude, we deal with this issue all the time, where
the performance of planes is reduced generally 30 to 40% most of the time.
If low climb rates were too dangerous, we'd hardly fly at all, especially the
local 150's which can't even hit pattern altitude in the pattern most of the
time.
This was especially the case with my FS II, which gave typical climb rates of 400fpm
or less even on cold clear days and with its monster warp drive prop. A
couple techniques I found helpful to keep things safe:
- maintain a lot of energy during liftoff and early climbout. flat climbouts with
a fair bit of airspeed, only pitch up to Vy once there's enough altitude to
be able to land if the power went away.
- fly off to downwind side of the runway (if there's a downwind side) on upwind
as early as possible. This makes the main runway accessible at lower altitudes
via a 'carrier' 180 instead of a somewhat more altitude-eating teardrop. If
you have long runways this isn't quite as important, but there's no reason you
can't drift to a downwind side on upwind for this purpose. It does reduce the
minimum altitude at which you can turn back to the runway.
- if you're still too low on upwind you can turn as needed to keep landing areas
under you or a runway under you or available like on a downwind. If you're at
a towered airport, advise the tower that you'll need to do this.
In my FS II I'd turn crosswind and fly a close-in downwind to the takoff runway
if necessary to gain enough altitude before leaving the area. The tower never
had a problem with it and I always had a runway or some landing spot available.
As we all know, if you don't have the performance to safely land or takeoff from
a place, don't go in there ;)........ At least, don't go in there all the time
;)....
Again, just my 1 cent,
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193733#193733
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh 2008 |
In a message dated 7/18/2008 9:22:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
NeilsenRM@comcast.net writes:
I will be at AirVenture "Oshkosh" camping with my plane all week. Is anyone
else going to be there?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Rick,
I will be driving up to air venture hoping to arrive Monday or
Tuesday. Will be camping at Schollar.
Ed Diebel FF#62
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
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| Subject: | Electrical question - shielding |
Here's the problem. I am using a fuel gauge that is connected to
capacitance type probes. When the engine is running, (503 DCDI) the
fuel gauge jumps around like crazy. After much testing and trouble
shooting, I believe the problem is related to the fuel sender wires
running near the ignition kill wires and/or the tach wire. When I move
part of the fuel sender wires a few inches away, the problem improves.
I'm really not wanting to move the sender wires to the other side of the
airplane to give more space between the different wire types. Before I
do this (since it would be a lot of work for a fix that's not 100%
guaranteed), is there a quick and easy way to shield the fuel sender
wires? Would this even work? Any help from the electricians in the
group would be appreciated.
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