---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/21/08: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:37 AM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Thom Riddle) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Eugene Zimmerman) 3. 06:12 AM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Thom Riddle) 4. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (John Hauck) 5. 06:40 AM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (lucien) 6. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (herb) 7. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (John Hauck) 8. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Jerry Jones) 9. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh 2008 (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 10. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (John Hauck) 11. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (robert bean) 12. 02:02 PM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (lucien) 13. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Jerry Jones) 14. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (John Hauck) 15. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (gary aman) 16. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Jerry Jones) 17. 06:02 PM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Jack B. Hart) 18. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (thumb) 19. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Jack B. Hart) 20. 06:27 PM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (Steven Green) 21. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (gary aman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons From: "Thom Riddle" Drooping the flaperons (or flaps) a bit increases the angle of attack a bit. The increased angle of attack results in a little more lift. The increased lift would result in a slight climb and loss of airspeed unless the pilot retrims, or in Jack's case, relaxes the back pressure. Relaxing the back pressure restores the angle of attack to its pre-droop state with a resulting slight nose down pitch. Thus the stabilized state is restored with less up elevator pressure. With larger amounts of flap application drag increases sufficiently to reduce airspeed. With a very small deflection, depending upon control surface rigging, the drooping flaps could result in slightly less drag and thus resulting in slightly higher airspeed. Since this happened on Jack's Firefly, I would venture a guess that the flaps full up configuration could benefit from a small adjustment toward a slightly more drooped condition to reduce drag. It is counterintuitive but many things are, and yet true, nonetheless. This effect can be quite different on different airplanes depending upon design and actual rigging, so this may or may not apply to your airplane but could apply to others. Our Allegro in flaps up configuration, the flaps are reflexed 4 1/2 degrees. This results in nearly 10 mph higher airspeed at Vh compared to 0 degrees of flap. Some airplanes get best Vh with zero degree flaps some with reflexed flaps, and it is conceivable that some get a higher Vh with slightly drooping flaps. -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist. George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194082#194082 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:09 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons Tom, Sounds good on paper, but I've never found a Kolb that has shown that behavior with flaps or flaprons. Reflex always lifts the nose and flaps down always lowers the nose on all the kolbs I have ever flown. Gene On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:35 AM, Thom Riddle wrote: > > Drooping the flaperons (or flaps) a bit increases the angle of > attack a bit. The increased angle of attack results in a little more > lift. The increased lift would result in a slight climb and loss of > airspeed unless the pilot retrims, or in Jack's case, relaxes the > back pressure. Relaxing the back pressure restores the angle of > attack to its pre-droop state with a resulting slight nose down > pitch. Thus the stabilized state is restored with less up elevator > pressure. > > With larger amounts of flap application drag increases sufficiently > to reduce airspeed. With a very small deflection, depending upon > control surface rigging, the drooping flaps could result in slightly > less drag and thus resulting in slightly higher airspeed. Since this > happened on Jack's Firefly, I would venture a guess that the flaps > full up configuration could benefit from a small adjustment toward a > slightly more drooped condition to reduce drag. It is > counterintuitive but many things are, and yet true, nonetheless. > > This effect can be quite different on different airplanes depending > upon design and actual rigging, so this may or may not apply to your > airplane but could apply to others. > > Our Allegro in flaps up configuration, the flaps are reflexed 4 1/2 > degrees. This results in nearly 10 mph higher airspeed at Vh > compared to 0 degrees of flap. Some airplanes get best Vh with zero > degree flaps some with reflexed flaps, and it is conceivable that > some get a higher Vh with slightly drooping flaps. > > -------- > Thom Riddle > N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL > N197BG FS1/447 > -------------------- > Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed > idealist. > George Carlin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194082#194082 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:25 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons From: "Thom Riddle" Gene, That is what I said. "... a resulting slight nose down pitch..." -------- Thom Riddle N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist. George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194099#194099 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:50 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons > Sounds good on paper, but I've never found a Kolb that has shown that > behavior with flaps or flaprons. > Reflex always lifts the nose and flaps down always lowers the nose on all > the kolbs I have ever flown. > > Gene Gene/Thom/Gang: That has been my experience with Kolbs. Sometimes their behavior is extremely unique, defying explanation and proof on paper. Weight and balance of a Kolb is one of those unique areas. There are folks out there still flying Kolbs with lead in the nose to make the paperwork work. I put a 11+ lb tailwheel on mine for a couple reasons. Primarily, the Maule Tundra Tailwheel, 8" pneumatic with tapered roller bearings in the pivot, is the only tailwheel I could afford that will stand up to the weight of the tail on my MKIII. The other reason was to demonstrate Kolbs don't particularly have an aft cg problem, if built, more or less, according to the plans. In addition to the heavy tailwheel and prop on a 4" extension, I fly with 150 lbs of fuel and 100+ lbs of cargo aft of the cg. I do get some offset from my modified main gear being moved 8" forward, but not much, since they are very close to the cg. I believe Jack H mentioned he drooped his flaperons about a degree. I doubt that amount is even measureable in flight. I work with 20 and 40 degrees of flaps. When drooped, it is quite evident that something has changed. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons From: "lucien" ez(at)embarqmail.com wrote: > Tom, > Sounds good on paper, but I've never found a Kolb that has shown that > behavior with flaps or flaprons. > Reflex always lifts the nose and flaps down always lowers the nose on > all the kolbs I have ever flown. > > Gene > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:35 AM, Thom Riddle wrote: > > I've never flown a plane period with flaps that didn't do this. The increased AOA of additional flaps always had/has the effect of trimming the nose down, not up... My titan works the same way. In fact, when doing pattern work I leave the trim set to require some forward pressure on the stick when straight/level with no flaps. Adding the first ten degs. nulls it out nicely and full generally requires only a little back pressure (this is when I"m lazy and don't adjust the trim throughout like I probably should ;)). As for the W&B, The original builder of my FS II added 10lbs of ballast to the nose a few hours after the first flight. It was kind of tail heavy without it mostly due to the use of the C box and clutch on the engine, which adds 10lbs over the B box at an arm pretty well behind the CG. Even so he said it flew fine, but it was just better with a little ballast..... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194104#194104 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:22 AM PST US From: herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons all of this said...might be interesting to see a picture of your plane in cruise flight...Jack... Without the skosh of flaperons... I find that , as I recall you mentioning, the Firefly is tiring on a trip of any length.... I attribute this to the inability of the pilot,me at my age and attention span , to keep the little bird on step. :-) Herb At 08:15 AM 7/21/2008, you wrote: > > > > Sounds good on paper, but I've never found a Kolb that has shown that >>behavior with flaps or flaprons. >>Reflex always lifts the nose and flaps down always lowers the nose >>on all the kolbs I have ever flown. >> >>Gene > > >Gene/Thom/Gang: > >That has been my experience with Kolbs. Sometimes their behavior is >extremely unique, defying explanation and proof on paper. > >Weight and balance of a Kolb is one of those unique areas. There >are folks out there still flying Kolbs with lead in the nose to make >the paperwork work. I put a 11+ lb tailwheel on mine for a couple >reasons. Primarily, the Maule Tundra Tailwheel, 8" pneumatic with >tapered roller bearings in the pivot, is the only tailwheel I could >afford that will stand up to the weight of the tail on my >MKIII. The other reason was to demonstrate Kolbs don't particularly >have an aft cg problem, if built, more or less, according to the >plans. In addition to the heavy tailwheel and prop on a 4" >extension, I fly with 150 lbs of fuel and 100+ lbs of cargo aft of >the cg. I do get some offset from my modified main gear being moved >8" forward, but not much, since they are very close to the cg. > >I believe Jack H mentioned he drooped his flaperons about a >degree. I doubt that amount is even measureable in flight. I work >with 20 and 40 degrees of flaps. When drooped, it is quite evident >that something has changed. ;-) > >john h >mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:53 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons > As for the W&B, The original builder of my FS II added 10lbs of ballast to the nose a few hours after the first flight. It was kind of tail heavy without it mostly due to the use of the C box and clutch on the engine, which adds 10lbs over the B box at an arm pretty well behind the CG. > > LS Lucien: There are other ways to trim a Kolb rather than add additional weight. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:45 AM PST US From: Jerry Jones Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons John, Wish I had known what they were when I rebuilt my Firestar. On my first flight I had to push the stick as far forward with my fingertips to get it to land. A weight and balance indicated I needed 50 lbs or so in the nose. Called the factory and was told their pilot normally carried similar weight in theirs. A friend later built a FS II and found after a w&b he needed a bunch of weight in the nose. So what is the secret, change of incidence in the horizontal stab? Ricochet > > > Lucien: > > There are other ways to trim a Kolb rather than add additional weight. > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:28 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Oshkosh 2008 I have had a change of plans. I will be driving to Oshkosh 08 and camping in the EAA campground. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "cspoke" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 10:07 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Oshkosh 2008 > > Hey Rick, > I will be there Thursday and Friday also. I'm looking forward to seeing > those Kolbers that can make it. > > -------- > Craig Spoke > Mk 111 Xtra VW (in the works) > Lillian, AL > cspoke@gulftel.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193904#193904 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:09 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons > On my > first flight I had to push the stick as far forward with my fingertips to > get it to land. A weight and balance indicated I needed 50 lbs or so in > the nose. Called the factory and was told their pilot normally carried > similar weight in theirs. A friend later built a FS II and found after a > w&b he needed a bunch of weight in the nose. So what is the secret, > change of incidence in the horizontal stab? > > Ricochet Jerry J/Gang: If it were my Kolb, I'd probably droop the ailerons a tad at a time until I got it in pitch trim. I can also adjust pitch trim with leading edge of the elevator, but should not have to do this if the aircraft was built was built to specs. An elevator trim tab can also be used to tame pitch trim. Quite possibly, your FS may have changed its characteristics during the rebuild. The last thing I would want to do is carry additional weight. I, personally, would never carry 50 lbs of lead in the nose of my Kolb to trim it in pitch or make the numbers on the weight and balance work out. Who at the "factory" gave you info reference additional weight in the nose? Adjusting ailerons up or down is the simplest and easiest way to adjust pitch trim. Well.............you could lean forward to land. ;-) To qualify my post, this is what I would do to trim one of my Kolbs. I am not recommending anyone else do this to trim their Kolb. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:34 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons A fatter pilot. Change tailplane incidence move seat forward all of the above In my MkIII, when I did the initial W&B it looked a little tail heavy too so I concealed two 15 lb bricks of lead in the nose cone. I created a little compartment with a door to make it reversible. Flew ok, so I took one out. Still ok, so out came the second brick. No difference except I'm not toting around 30 lbs of dead weight. The MkIII (at least mine) has a remarkably neutral stick pressure. Even one notch of flaps requires only a small stick back pressure. It is a very docile and comfortable airplane, perfectly suited for their elderly owners. :) Lighter aircraft are of course more sensitive to weights and trim. BB, stuck inside with heavy rain all about. do not archive On 21, Jul 2008, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Jones wrote: > > John, > > Wish I had known what they were when I rebuilt my Firestar. On my > first flight I had to push the stick as far forward with my > fingertips to get it to land. A weight and balance indicated I > needed 50 lbs or so in the nose. Called the factory and was told > their pilot normally carried similar weight in theirs. A friend > later built a FS II and found after a w&b he needed a bunch of > weight in the nose. So what is the secret, change of incidence in > the horizontal stab? > > Ricochet >> >> >> Lucien: >> >> There are other ways to trim a Kolb rather than add additional >> weight. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons From: "lucien" John Hauck wrote: > > > Lucien: > > There are other ways to trim a Kolb rather than add additional weight. > > john h > mkIII I remember going through the logbooks on this as he documented various of the things he did during the phase I in trimming the plane out. We also talked about it when I went to look at the plane. He did make some changes to the "droop" of the ailerons, but didn't add any trim tabs to the elevator or make any incidence changes to the stab. The only reason I could see that he added ballast (10lbs) was because the original W&B came in right at the aft limit in his most-aft scenario (can't remember exactly what that was). The ballast moved that forward about an inch. IMO, it flew slightly nose-heavy even with me in it (I'm about 195, he was about 220), without any stick pressure it wanted to cruise at 70mph or even a little more and was difficult to 3-point even when trying. So I think it was probably ok without it, tho I didn't try to take it out to see. Still loved the way it flew, it didn't do anything goofy and the engine loafed most of the time.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194203#194203 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:31 PM PST US From: Jerry Jones Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons Thanks guys for ideas on how to avoid carrying around extra freight in the nose. And, John, don't recall now who at the factory I spoke with about their carrying extra weight in the nose. It was six to nine years ago, but I'd probably still forget if it was yesterday. Seemed strange to me they said they carried extra weight, given how the Fly-in Kolb lands and takes off in a shorter distance than anything I've seen. Next time I run into the problem of having to push the stick forward with my finger tips to fly level and land, I'll consider these other ideas. Yea, extra weight normally isn't a good thing. Jerry > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons > Seemed strange to me they said they carried extra weight, given how > the Fly-in Kolb lands and takes off in a shorter distance than > anything I've seen. Next time I run into the problem of having to > push the stick forward with my finger tips to fly level and land, > I'll consider these other ideas. Yea, extra weight normally isn't a > good thing. > > Jerry Jerry/Gang: None of the factory aircraft carry ballast weights. How did you correct the improper trim on your Kolb? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:57 PM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons John, Am I missing something or do you not use conventional W&B calculations on your MK-3? G.Aman MK-3C ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hauck Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:15:10 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons > Sounds good on paper, but I've never found a Kolb that has shown that > behavior with flaps or flaprons. > Reflex always lifts the nose and flaps down always lowers the nose on all > the kolbs I have ever flown. > > Gene Gene/Thom/Gang: That has been my experience with Kolbs. Sometimes their behavior is extremely unique, defying explanation and proof on paper. Weight and balance of a Kolb is one of those unique areas. There are folks out there still flying Kolbs with lead in the nose to make the paperwork work. I put a 11+ lb tailwheel on mine for a couple reasons. Primarily, the Maule Tundra Tailwheel, 8" pneumatic with tapered roller bearings in the pivot, is the only tailwheel I could afford that will stand up to the weight of the tail on my MKIII. The other reason was to demonstrate Kolbs don't particularly have an aft cg problem, if built, more or less, according to the plans. In addition to the heavy tailwheel and prop on a 4" extension, I fly with 150 lbs of fuel and 100+ lbs of cargo aft of the cg. I do get some offset from my modified main gear being moved 8" forward, but not much, since they are very close to the cg. I believe Jack H mentioned he drooped his flaperons about a degree. I doubt that amount is even measureable in flight. I work with 20 and 40 degrees of flaps. When drooped, it is quite evident that something has changed. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:56 PM PST US From: Jerry Jones Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons John, I strapped 35 lb of lead in the nose of my 503 DCDI Firestar, which always seemed like a waste. Now I see it might have been. Two of my Firestar flying friends have nothing, which made me wonder about the weight I carried. After this discussion I can now sleep peacefully without worrying about them or wondering what I would do if I built/ bought another Kolb---miss flying at a 45 degrees in sidewinds and lots of other special characteristics of my Kolb. Jerry > > Jerry/Gang: > > None of the factory aircraft carry ballast weights. > > How did you correct the improper trim on your Kolb? > > john h > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:50 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Drooping FireFly Flaperons At 07:39 PM 7/20/08 -0500, you wrote: > > > > Drooped >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 > > >Hi Jack H: > >That is what I thought. > >Drooping flaperons or flaps pushes the nose down, requiring more aft >pressure to remain level. > >Reflexing them will pull the nose up, requiring less aft pressure, or if >reflexed enough, you will then have to apply forward pressure on the stick >to remain level. > >This is the opposite effect you got????? > >Wonder why your aircraft responded in an opposite manner? > John H., I don't believe it is responding in the opposite manner. What I am trying to do is to maintain constant altitude flight, but at a lower speed. As I said my FireFly is trimmed for level flight at 5,500 rpm with 50 mphi with the stick in the neutral position. If I slow the engine to 5,000 rpm I get 40 mphi and I must increase stick back pressure to raise the elevator five degrees to maintain altitude. This puts the FireFly in a nose high position. Then I lower the flaperons one degree and the nose drops a little. If I maintain the stick/elevator position at five degrees, the FireFly starts to climb. To keep from climbing I have to let the stick go forward which drops the nose a little more. And so I can maintain constant altitude at 40 mphi with less stick back pressure with one degree of flaperon. I believe you may be confusing level attitude with constant altitude. Jack B Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:15 PM PST US From: "thumb" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons Hey Guys I think the person you are talking about is Izek,I think at one time he did fly with some kind of weight or sand bag when he flew alone . It belive I remember at the S&F that thing got loose and did some damage to the nose on the way down there in the trailer.That was a long time ago when Brian Blackwell or Blackwood was a part owner. I hope I have this correct.. Bill Futrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Jones" Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons > > Thanks guys for ideas on how to avoid carrying around extra freight in > the nose. And, John, don't recall now who at the factory I spoke with > about their carrying extra weight in the nose. It was six to nine years > ago, but I'd probably still forget if it was yesterday. Seemed strange > to me they said they carried extra weight, given how the Fly-in Kolb > lands and takes off in a shorter distance than anything I've seen. Next > time I run into the problem of having to push the stick forward with my > finger tips to fly level and land, I'll consider these other ideas. Yea, > extra weight normally isn't a good thing. > > Jerry >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:49 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons At 08:15 AM 7/21/08 -0500, you wrote: > > >I believe Jack H mentioned he drooped his flaperons about a degree. I doubt >that amount is even measureable in flight. > John H. See how I measure it at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly116.html I can measure elevator position by: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly102.html and I have an ASI and a VSI So I don't have to judge by feel alone. Jack B. Hart FF004 Wionchester, IN ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:52 PM PST US From: "Steven Green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Drooping FireFly Flaperons Here is a pretty nice article I ran across when I did a search on "flaps, center of pressure" http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg3.htm Steven Green MK3 912S 550 hrs 10EC ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:03 PM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons Sorry Thom,=0AI missed something here If in trimmed level flight, flap is a dded,the angle of attack in my Kolb decreases.Does the center of lift move back with the addition of flap?=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Thom Riddle =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon day, July 21, 2008 7:35:05 AM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Re: Drooping FireFly Fl .com>=0A=0ADrooping the flaperons (or flaps) a bit increases the angle of a ttack a bit. The increased angle of attack results in a little more lift. T he increased lift would result in a slight climb and loss of airspeed unles s the pilot retrims, or in Jack's case, relaxes the back pressure. Relaxing the back pressure restores the angle of attack to its pre-droop state with a resulting slight nose down pitch. Thus the stabilized state is restored with less up elevator pressure. =0A=0AWith larger amounts of flap applicati on drag increases sufficiently to reduce airspeed. With a very small deflec tion, depending upon control surface rigging, the drooping flaps could resu lt in slightly less drag and thus resulting in slightly higher airspeed. Si nce this happened on Jack's Firefly, I would venture a guess that the flaps full up configuration could benefit from a small adjustment toward a sligh tly more drooped condition to reduce drag. It is counterintuitive but many things are, and yet true, nonetheless. =0A=0AThis effect can be quite diffe rent on different airplanes depending upon design and actual rigging, so th is may or may not apply to your airplane but could apply to others. =0A=0AO ur Allegro in flaps up configuration, the flaps are reflexed 4 1/2 degrees. This results in nearly 10 mph higher airspeed at Vh compared to 0 degrees of flap. Some airplanes get best Vh with zero degree flaps some with reflex ed flaps, and it is conceivable that some get a higher Vh with slightly dro oping flaps.=0A=0A--------=0AThom Riddle=0AN221FA Allegro 2000 912UL=0AN197 BG FS1/447=0A--------------------=0A=93Scratch any cynic,=94 he said, =93an d you=92ll find a disappointed idealist.=94 =0AGeorge Carlin=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A Read this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php =============== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.