Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:42 AM - Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (The Kuffels)
2. 02:26 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (pj.ladd)
3. 02:33 AM - Re: Re:side slip in a KOLB (pj.ladd)
4. 02:59 AM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (pj.ladd)
5. 03:41 AM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (pj.ladd)
6. 04:35 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (JVanLaak@aol.com)
7. 04:35 AM - Re: side slip in a KOLB (planecrazzzy)
8. 06:06 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (chris davis)
9. 08:57 AM - Re: VG's ()
10. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? ()
11. 10:05 AM - Re: VG's (JetPilot)
12. 10:23 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (JetPilot)
13. 12:39 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (lucien)
14. 01:29 PM - Re: VG's (Bart Morgan)
15. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: VG's (Steven Green)
16. 08:30 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (Dave Bigelow)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
Pat,
<< Thud could not be got out of a flat spin. Standard drill was
to take your hands and feet off, and wait >>
The IAC (International Aerobatics Club) division of EAA has
developed a "universal" recovery technique for all types of spins
(conventional, inverted, oscillatory, etc). In brief:
Power Off
Hands Off
Opposite Rudder
(Smoothly recover as rotation ends)
Haven't done any spin testing in a while so don't know how this
compares to "optimum" methods (which can be different for
different types of spins).
Enjoy your l'arning.
Tom Kuffel
Building Original FireStar
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
The IAC (International Aerobatics Club) division of EAA has
developed a "universal" recovery technique for all types of spins >>
Hi Tom,
perhaps the EAA can teach the military something. I am only retailing what
a pilot said happened to him in Vietnam in a series on TV called `Dogfight`.
It reconstructs real actions, with pretty good computer graphics,
interspersed with commentary by the pilots involved. I don`t think it
mentioned how much height was needed for the unaided recovery to take place.
I was taught `stick forward and opposite rudder` and I am too old to learn a
new technique. As the chances of me flying a Thud are not good so I dont
think I will worry about it.
Cheers
Pat
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re:side slip in a KOLB |
KOLBS and they all slip great>>
Thanks for that, Ellery, I will give it a go.
Pat
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
BTW in your 'Summer School' -- are you instructor or student ?>>
Hi Russ,
very funny. Definitely a student studying `Noel Coward` and `Musical
Composition` (unrelated courses). In previous years I have `done` Water
Colour Painting` `The History of the Third Reich`(the whole class decided
that if we were German in 1935 we would have voted for Hitler) `Musical
Improvisation`
Wendy is `doing` Photograph Manipulation by Computer` amnd learning to play
Croquet.
Grandchildren are canoeing, abseiling, horse riding, shooting, raft
building. Its a great holiday as we just feed the kids breakfast and they
disappear with their instructors until the next mealtime. Then we feed `em
and throw `em back.
I bet you are glad you asked. Leaving this afternoon.
Cheers
Pat
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
Side slipping is nice for cross wind landings.>>
Hi Jack,
aven`t really got into very strong cross wing landings in the Kolb yet so I
have that to come. In the Challenger I almost always side slipped into a
landing. I just liked the precision of landing on a pre chosen spot.
<<I am curious. What course are taking in summer school?>>
Oh dear, I hadn`t realised my throwaway remark would generate such interest.
See the detail in my reply to Russ.
Its a bit of a b****r in fact as the weather has come good for almost the
first time this summer and I should be flying, not `larnin`. Still, I flew
twice yesterday and took Wendy up for the first time the day before. I think
that is the first time I have flown two days in succesion this summer.
Return from school next Saturday and there is a very big fly- in about 60
miles away on Sunday so I hope to make that. The fly-in is a re-run of a
previous date which had to be cancelled, for the first time in 29 years,
because the field was flooded. Fingers crossed.
Cheers
Pat
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
Kolbers,
I have been lurking here for a while since I built an original Firestar back
in the mid 80's and have been thinking about getting another one. I don't
think I have had as much fun in any airplane since.
I am moved to contribute on the subject of spins, having flown many
airplanes from Hummers to Kolbs to the F-106, A-10 and F/A-18. I can tell you
that
high performance jets, particularly those with strongly swept wings and big
engines in the tail, have entirely different spin characteristics than light
airplanes. For example, the mass distribution along the length of the fuselage
can result in strong inertial coupling that the flight controls simply
cannot overcome, or the axis of rotation may not be inside the length of the
airplane resulting in very high G forces that can incapacitate the pilot. In
other cases like the F-106 the plane would eventually recover but the altitude
required could be way more than what was available - like 30,000 feet.
The Air Force required all of the pilots who flew the T-37 to practice spins
and had a very effective spin recovery technique. It simply does not work
in the higher performance airplanes.
Also note that the IAC "universal spin recovery" probably works fine for
straight wing light airplanes, but even it is a compromise. There was a great
article about 15 years ago detailing the development of that technique
indicating that one of its specific goals was to deal with disorientation and
resulting incorrect control inputs. By teaching a compromise that would always
work it was better than trying to teach how to recognize the confusing
differences between variations of upright and inverted oscillating spins. In
other
words, some recovery power that would be available if the controls were in the
optimum position was sacrificed to reduce the potential of the wrong inputs
being made.
Fortunately Kolbs are sweet flying airplanes that will take care of you if
you take care of them.
Fly Safely
Jim
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: side slip in a KOLB |
Mine slips one way better than the other....
I think it's Right Rudder.....
That would make sense...I counter with Left Rudder on take off....
With no doors , I can feel the difference in the wind rushing thru the
cabin....
Yeah, Watching the VSI , She drops like a rock.....
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195167#195167
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
Jim , Thanks for your input ! Its good to hear from a man that has flown so
me of the birds I have only dreamed of ,but understands the joy and pleasur
e of a Kolb. Hope you do get another one and have "as much fun " once again
. Thank you for your service toour country. Chris=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Origina
l Message ----=0AFrom: "JVanLaak@aol.com" <JVanLaak@aol.com>=0ATo: kolb-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 7:32:59 AM=0ASubject: Re: Kol
b-List: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?)=0A=0AKolbers,=0A-=0AI have be
en lurking here for a while since I built an original Firestar back in the
mid 80's and have been thinking about getting another one.- I don't think
I have had as much fun in any airplane since.=0A-=0AI am moved to contri
bute on the subject of spins, having flown many airplanes from Hummers to
-Kolbs to the F-106, A-10 and F/A-18. -I can tell you that high perform
ance jets, particularly-those with strongly swept wings and big engines i
n the tail,-have entirely different spin characteristics than light airpl
anes.- For example, the mass distribution along the length of the fuselag
e can result in strong inertial coupling that the flight controls simply ca
nnot overcome, or the axis of rotation may not be inside the length of the
airplane resulting in very high G forces that can incapacitate the pilot.
- In other cases like the F-106 the plane would eventually recover but th
e altitude required-could be way more than what was available - like 30,0
00 feet.- =0A-=0AThe Air Force required all of the pilots who flew the
T-37 to practice spins and had a very effective spin recovery technique.-
It simply does not work in the higher performance airplanes.- =0A-=0AA
lso note that the IAC "universal spin recovery" probably works fine for str
aight wing light airplanes, but even it is a compromise.- There was a gre
at article about 15 years ago detailing the development of that technique
-indicating that-one of its specific goals was to deal with disorientat
ion and resulting incorrect control inputs.- By teaching-a compromise
-that would always work it was better than trying to teach how to recogni
ze the confusing differences between variations of upright and inverted osc
illating spins.- In-other words,-some recovery power that would be av
ailable if the controls were in the optimum position was sacrificed to redu
ce the potential of the wrong inputs being made.=0A-=0AFortunately Kolbs
are sweet flying airplanes that will take care of you if you take care of t
hem.=0A-=0AFly Safely=0A-=0AJim=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0AGet fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse
==============0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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> after the results I saw today with VG's Im not sold on em and I have a new
> set I will sell you if you really believe they work that good
> I guess I am with John H on this one
>
> Ellery in Maine
Hi Folks:
Don't think I ever said how well they do or do not work. However, I did say I
have no requirement for them on my mkIII.
john h
mkIII
Huntsville, TN Cruising the beautiful mountains on my ATV. Using the WIFI in front
of the Court House, Sheriff's Office, and the local jail. Double towing
the 5th wheel and ATV trailer illegally in TN. Hope a concerned Sheriff's Deputy
doesn't arrest me and put me in that old jail house. ;-)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
I just liked the precision of landing on a pre chosen spot.
>
>
> Pat
Patrick:
Aren't there also other methods of landing at a prechosen spot?
john h
mkIII
Message 11
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Ellery,
If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you either screwed
up the installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to recognize the
improvements in flight charismatics. The benefits of VG's on Kolbs are very
well documented.
I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to bash you here on the list.
I do think you need to hear the facts in a very direct and unbiased manner,
then do what you like.
Good Luck,
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195226#195226
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
Has anyone here ever spun their Kolb ??? If so what was it like ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195229#195229
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
JetPilot wrote:
> Has anyone here ever spun their Kolb ??? If so what was it like ?
>
> Mike
I did some incipient spin entry/recovery exercises in my FS II, tho didn't try
to do any actual spins.
Seemed very conventional to me, wing dropped and it'd try to flip over onto its
back into a spin. Recovery was just letting go of the back pressure on the stick
an applying opposite rudder and it was flying again and going back to a level
attitude.
Ailerons still kind of work even in a full stall....
Very no-surprise and docile. No idea about a developed spin tho...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
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Message 14
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Ellery,
What brand and price for VGs?
Bart M
jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote:
> after the results I saw today with VG's Im not sold on em and I have a new
> set I will sell you if you really believe they work that good
> I guess I am with John H on this one
>
> Ellery in Maine
Hi Folks:
Don't think I ever said how well they do or do not work. However, I did say I have
no requirement for them on my mkIII.
john h
mkIII
Huntsville, TN Cruising the beautiful mountains on my ATV. Using the WIFI in front
of the Court House, Sheriff's Office, and the local jail. Double towing the
5th wheel and ATV trailer illegally in TN. Hope a concerned Sheriff's Deputy
doesn't arrest me and put me in that old jail house. ;-)
Message 15
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>
> Ellery,
>
> If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you
> either screwed up the installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to
> recognize the improvements in flight charismatics. The benefits of VG's
> on Kolbs are very well documented.
>
> I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to bash you here on
> the list. I do think you need to hear the facts in a very direct and
> unbiased manner, then do what you like.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Mike
>
Mike,
If you have such a need for VGs on YOUR Kolb then you either screwed up the
plane or you are not a good enough pilot to recognize that it is a great
flying plane without them.
Sorry Guys, just couldn't hold back
do not archive
Steven
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
Jim's notes on spin recovery of high performance fighters brings back many memories.
One of the famous Air Force aircraft of its time was the F-101. In a very
high angle of attack situation, the T tail could become "blanked" by the wing's
airflow, and it would pitch up into what was called a "departure". Not
sure exactly why this term was used, but it was usually the pre-cursor to the
pilot "departing" the aircraft via ejection seat.
One of the hazards of flying sail planes in mountain wave conditions is the clouds
filling in below and trapping you above an overcast. Some Schweitzer 1-26
pilots advocate putting the glider into a spin and spinning through the overcast.
They recover after popping through cloud base. Sounds pretty "iffy" but
seems better than losing control in the clouds and suffering a structural failure.
The idea is that a spin is self limiting in airspeed and G loads.
I've spun the 1-26 a number of times, and it's a pretty straight forward entry
and recovery. A number of years back (in my younger and more foolish days), I
was over a scattered to broken cloud deck with bases at 4,000 feet. A 1-26 is
easily recovered in about 500 feet, so I decided to give the spin through the
clouds plan a try.
I entered the spin at about 7,000 feet, stabilized with pro-spin controls (full
rudder in the direction of rotation, and full back stick), and entered the clouds.
It was horribly disorienting, and I nearly got sick. It seemed to take
forever to get through that 2,000 foot thick cloud, and the whole time felt like
death was imminent. It was a great relief to pop out of the cloud and recover.
Haven't repeated that foolishness since!
Do Not Archive
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
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