Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:07 AM - Re: Re: VG's (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
2. 04:09 AM - Re: Re: VG's (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
3. 04:11 AM - Re: Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) (jvanlaak@aol.com)
4. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: VG's (TK)
5. 07:49 AM - The value of VG's (Mike Welch)
6. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: VG's (VICTOR PETERS)
7. 08:58 AM - Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons (jimhefner)
8. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: VG's (possums)
9. 02:00 PM - Balanced 912 Carbs (Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL)
10. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: VG's (ross richardson)
11. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (Dana Hague)
12. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (Dana Hague)
13. 06:09 PM - Re: Re:side slip in a KOLB (Dana Hague)
14. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (Russ RKI Photo)
15. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (Dana Hague)
16. 07:39 PM - Re: Re:side slip in a KOLB (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
17. 07:41 PM - Thank you, Homer (N111KX (Kip))
18. 08:09 PM - Re: Re:side slip in a KOLB (Dana Hague)
19. 08:13 PM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance? (Ed Chmielewski)
20. 10:43 PM - Re: VG's (JetPilot)
Message 1
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Jetpilot
it was not my plane and I didn't install the VG's on it I was just test
flying it for a friend why don't you ever have anything decent to say to
anyone on this list every time there's and argument why is it Your always involved
in it? You have an axe to grind with me now I hope for your sake we don't
ever run in to each other sparks are going to fly
and I am sure I am very capable of recognizing a change of flight in the
same plane with VG's installed and You know nothing of my abilities so why
don't you go "excuse my language but" F#%k Your self and mind your own business
Oh yah as always You think you have all the answers, what a Joke
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
In a message dated 7/27/2008 1:05:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
orcabonita@hotmail.com writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Ellery,
If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you
either screwed up the installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to
recognize the improvements in flight charismatics. The benefits of VG's on Kolbs
are
very well documented.
I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to bash you here on the
list. I do think you need to hear the facts in a very direct and unbiased
manner, then do what you like.
Good Luck,
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195226#195226
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Message 2
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thanks for you view on this Steven GOOD POINT !!
Ellery
do not archive
In a message dated 7/27/2008 7:41:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
> Ellery,
>
> If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you
> either screwed up the installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to
> recognize the improvements in flight charismatics. The benefits of VG's
> on Kolbs are very well documented.
>
> I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to bash you here on
> the list. I do think you need to hear the facts in a very direct and
> unbiased manner, then do what you like.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Mike
>
Mike,
If you have such a need for VGs on YOUR Kolb then you either screwed up the
plane or you are not a good enough pilot to recognize that it is a great
flying plane without them.
Sorry Guys, just couldn't hold back
do not archive
Steven
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| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?) |
Dave,
The term departure is short for "depart controlled flight" as many times you were
not going to get it back.? The Voodoo was one of many airplanes to exhibit
that.
Never tried spinning through the clouds though I too was told it was a potential
life saver.? I was offered the opportunity to ride through a spin while under
the hood in a T-37.? What a mistake!? I have never been so dizzy in my life.?
Worst of all, it was on my instrument check ride.? Fortunately I got over it
in time to successfully complete the ride.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Bigelow <up_country@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:27 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Spin Recovery (Weight and Balance?)
Jim's notes on spin recovery of high performance fighters brings back many
memories. One of the famous Air Force aircraft of its time was the F-101. In
a
very high angle of attack situation, the T tail could become "blanked" by the
wing's airflow, and it would pitch up into what was called a "departure". Not
sure exactly why this term was used, but it was usually the pre-cursor to the
pilot "departing" the aircraft via ejection seat.
One of the hazards of flying sail planes in mountain wave conditions is the
clouds filling in below and trapping you above an overcast. Some Schweitzer
1-26 pilots advocate putting the glider into a spin and spinning through the
overcast. They recover after popping through cloud base. Sounds pretty "iffy"
but seems better than losing control in the clouds and suffering a structural
failure. The idea is that a spin is self limiting in airspeed and G loads.
I've spun the 1-26 a number of times, and it's a pretty straight forward entry
and recovery. A number of years back (in my younger and more foolish days), I
was over a scattered to broken cloud deck with bases at 4,000 feet. A 1-26 is
easily recovered in about 500 feet, so I decided to give the spin through the
clouds plan a try.
I entered the spin at about 7,000 feet, stabilized with pro-spin controls (full
rudder in the direction of rotation, and full back stick), and entered the
clouds. It was horribly disorienting, and I nearly got sick. It seemed to take
forever to get through that 2,000 foot thick cloud, and the whole time felt like
death was imminent. It was a great relief to pop out of the cloud and recover.
Haven't repeated that foolishness since!
Do Not Archive
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195307#195307
-
Message 4
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ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote:
> *thanks for you view on this Steven GOOD POINT !!*
> **
> *Ellery *
> *do not archive*
>
> In a message dated 7/27/2008 7:41:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net writes:
>
>
Ellery & Steven,
While I understand your frustration with the idiot that has invaded our
List group, trying to reason with him it totally fruitless. I am guilty
of trying to do so also and now realize that it is in vain. He is one
of those personality types that thrives on getting normal people upset
by making outrageous statements and being offensive in every way
possible. I'm sure he gotten away with this lifestyle way too long to
be able to change and it's real easy to hide behind the internet where
your not going to get a bloody nose or black eye for your childish,
stupid behavior.
This type of individual thrives on the kind of response we are
providing and the best method of dealing with him would be for everyone
to ignore his existence. *No Response to his messages* would be the
best way of dealing with him. He needs the emotional responses to
validate his rightest, superior attitude. Eventually, without getting
his anticipated responses, he will wither away.
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 5
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| Subject: | The value of VG's |
Kolb Gentlemen and Ladies=2C
The positive aspects of VG's has been assailed many times by those that b
elieve in their performance improvements. With that being said=2C there ar
e those among us that simply
"prefer" to NOT use them!
John H. has repeatedly stated he doesn't personally need them. Great! H
e didn't argue their value=2C he just said he didn't want them. Now=2C Ell
ery feels the same way. Fine. Are
these fine gentlemen NOT allowed their opinion??!!
Of course=2C there are others that do not want them=2C for their own par
ticular reasons!! But=2C with all the opinions for and against them=2C the
re should be plenty enough information
out there to allow everyone to make up their own mind=2C without condemnati
on.
Where I personally DO want to try them=2C I respect those that do not. (
Especially those that have a hellava lot more flying experience than me!!)
After I have begun flying my MkIII=2C it is entirely possible I may not "
see the need". If I have as much control of my airspeed as I should...why
put them on?? Don't know!! Only time will tell.
Mike Welch=2C Kolb MkIII
Near Minneapolis=2C visiting my son=2C home from Afghanistan=2C we're all g
oing to Oshkosh Wednesday/Thursday...Yay!
If anyone is at the Oshkosh Airshow this Wednesday or Thursday=2C and wan
ts to say "Howdy"=2C I'd like to meet you. Call me on my cell phone. 435-
817-1816
_________________________________________________________________
Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_
family_safety_072008
Message 6
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Hey yoos guys My ears are burnin.
I put the VG's in question on my own plane. I made vinyl templates on my
PC, exact dimentions, exact angles and cut them out using a vinyl
cutter. They are equally spaced between ribs.
Ellery is a friend of mine so let me do the bashing on list cause if you
where not I'd hate to see if you were.
He was a little quick to judgement since the whole flight lasted only 18
mins.
He wasn't wearing his glasses, so I was watching gauges.
It was a hot day with 2 on board in crappy air.
It stalled at about 42 to 43 mph which is what it's suposed to do with 1
pilot in good conditions.
Hardly reliable anyway when the nose is pointed that far up. There must
be odd pressure forces on the pito from the flat bottomed nose.
Takeoff was 250-275 ft. tail up and pretty much perpendicular to the
runway, Ellery still thinks its his Firestar were flying. He likes to
cram on all power, bend the right ruder pedal and go for it.
Twice we landed at about 50mph. The last time we did that pre VG's at 50
we hit the ground from lack of lift.
My opinion, there was improvement, not much but hardly a proper flight
test.
What are the published #'s for the Xtra with flapperons? I can't find
the the info before the recent mods?
Vic
Maine
912 ul
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Drooping FireFly Flaperons |
Hi gang,
I happened to visit the Kolb list this morning to see what's happening and saw
this discussion, which brought back memories of how much I liked the continuously
adjustable elevator trim tab on my old Firefly. It was mounted on the rear
edge of the left horizontal stab and worked beautifully. No matter what rpm
setting I chose, I could trim it out for level flight in a split second and not
have any stick pressure to tire me. No other tweeks of flaperons or angle
of incidence to mess with.... I highly recommend it!
Each time I flew to Copperstate, the elevator trim tab and VG's were the main discussion
points of folks stopping by.... several folks lifted the tail to take
photos of the trim tab setup. It was on the Firefly when I bought it so I don't
know the details of the parts used or where they came from, but I was sure
glad the previous owner had installed it. The actuator was a friction lever
that held the setting wherever you wanted it. It pulled against a spring that
held the trim tab in position against the pull of the cable. If anyone is
interested in more info, contact Henry Voris. I'm sure Henry wouldn't mind taking
a few photos to share here.
Take care!
--------
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195359#195359
Message 8
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At 06:33 AM 7/28/2008, you wrote:
>Jetpilot
>it was not my plane why don't you go "excuse my language but" F#%k
>Your self and mind your own business
>Oh yah as always You think you have all the answers, what a Joke
>
>Ellery in Maine
You're not going to take that - are you Jetpilot ??
Message 9
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| Subject: | Balanced 912 Carbs |
Kolb Friends -
I just finished an annual condition inspection, and I flew my Mark-3
this past weekend. It was the first flight in several months following
several mods and upgrades, and the first time since doing a Pneumatic
Synchronization (balance) on the Bing-64 carburetors. All went well
with the FCF - the 912 still runs perfectly. A friend of mine let me
use his synch tool (2 vacuum gauges and connect hoses, $80 at Lockwood)
and stepped me thru the process. While I always try to ensure the
mechanical synch of my carbs is exact, I had never done the vacuum synch
since I've owned this engine.
The only noticeable difference is that the idle is now smoother (1800
rpm) than before. And although my 912ul never seemed like is was
running "off" or "badly," the difference in vacuum that the carbs were
making at the various RPMs was a real eye-opener (before adjustment).
At both idle and mid range power settings, the vacuum readings for the 2
carburetors were pretty widely divergent. The synch process adjusts the
individual throttle settings to bring those vacuum readings back to
"balanced" values, or very close to it.
Anyway - I'm glad I did it. Although I can't really detect that the
engine runs better, my mind is at peace knowing that the two banks of my
engine aren't "fighting" each other for pneumatic balance, but rather
are working together at the same manifold pressure. I think I'll buy
the synch kit for myself, and do this at every annual. It was pretty
easy.
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, "Magic Bike"
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 10
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I guess I have missed some of the input on VG's when I see all these commen
ts. I have a Mark111 / 912UL and have VG's that I am going to TRY to see if
I notice any improvment and if not=2C off them come. I hate to see people
that haven't tried something put others down like I have seen on here. I so
ld and worked on boats for year. Being a dealer rigged many..many of the sa
me boats and engines just alike. One thing I found was not every one ran th
e same and had to be tweeked=2C nothing worst than two of the same boats an
d one would out do the other=2C customers not happy. I think this MAY be tr
ue of our planes also that we build=2C where one thing works for one it isn
't going to on another. All I can say is keep an open mind and make your ow
n call=2C your flying it !!!
sums@bellsouth.netSubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG'sAt 06:33 AM 7/28/2008=2C
you wrote:
Jetpilot it was not my plane why don't you go "excuse my language but" F#%k
Your self and mind your own business Oh yah as always You think you have a
ll the answers=2C what a Joke Ellery in Maine You're not going to take tha
t - are you Jetpilot ??
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
At 05:24 PM 7/26/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
>Is there any point in sideslipping a Kolb?. There is so little side area
>and the flaps can produce a pretty good descent angle antway.
Unless, of course, you fly an Ultrastar which has no flaps... :)
-Dana
--
The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
At 10:23 PM 7/26/2008, Russ RKIPhoto wrote:
>IMHO sideslipping is a valuable maneuvre (note correct spelling) in
>any kind of aircraft, but I admit to no experience in a Kolb.
>Little side area should make her slip and descend even better than most.
Russ, a slip makes an aircraft descend faster due to the increase in drag
due to the relative wind impinging on the fuselage side. Little side area
means little added drag means little effect on descent.
-Dana
--
The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re:side slip in a KOLB |
At 12:50 AM 7/27/2008, ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote:
>I have side slipped three different models of KOLBS and they all slip
>great if anyone tells you different they don't know how to side slip
>properly I just showed Vic from Maine how they slip today ask him and
>he has flaperons not Flaps they all come down like an elevator with a slip
I think I've learned to do slips "properly" over the years and I can assure
that even a full rudder slip has almost no effect on the descent angle in
my Ultraster.
-Dana
--
The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
Dana
IMHO the reduced vertical area of the wing when it's tilted also has
a considerable effect. Less lateral area (covered fuselage) would
make her travel sideways faster, and down faster. As they say, just
my 2c worth
Do not archive
On Jul 28, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
>
> At 10:23 PM 7/26/2008, Russ RKIPhoto wrote:
>
>> IMHO sideslipping is a valuable maneuvre (note correct spelling) in
>> any kind of aircraft, but I admit to no experience in a Kolb.
>> Little side area should make her slip and descend even better than
>> most.
>
> Russ, a slip makes an aircraft descend faster due to the increase
> in drag due to the relative wind impinging on the fuselage side.
> Little side area means little added drag means little effect on
> descent.
>
> -Dana
> --
> The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
At 09:55 PM 7/28/2008, Russ RKI Photo wrote:
>Dana
>IMHO the reduced vertical area of the wing when it's tilted also has
>a considerable effect. Less lateral area (covered fuselage) would make
>her travel sideways faster, and down faster. As they say, just my 2c worth
>Do not archive
The purpose of a slip is to get you down at a steeper _angle_, not
_faster_. Increasing the wing loading increases airspeed and sink rate,
but not glide angle.
-Dana
--
If you don't grow up by age 35, you don't have to.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re:side slip in a KOLB |
I have not flown a Ultrastar but try more aileron input with opposite
rudder more down elevator and you should get more effect with your slip
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
In a message dated 7/28/2008 9:09:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
d-m-hague@comcast.net writes:
At 12:50 AM 7/27/2008, ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote:
I have side slipped three different models of KOLBS and they all slip
great if anyone tells you different they don't know how to side slip properly
I
just showed Vic from Maine how they slip today ask him and he has flaperons
not Flaps they all come down like an elevator with a slip
I think I've learned to do slips "properly" over the years and I can assure
that even a full rudder slip has almost no effect on the descent angle in my
Ultraster.
-Dana
--
The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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| Subject: | Thank you, Homer |
A friend asked me to fly his newly acquired light-plane yesterday. I flew the Firestar
30 miles to his grass strip to check out his pride and joy. It is a Quad
City Challenger single place. During the preflight, I was amazed to see an
aluminum skeleton structure with very primitive gusset arrangements and a very
complicated control system, landing gear double-braced by cables, control attachments
of steel on aluminum, inverted engine, small tube aluminum bracing of
tail and wing structure and dozens of other details that were either too complex
or weak in appearance. The tail was as flexible as a garden hose. And, it
was ugly as sin.
As for flying the only axis that was pleasant was pitch. But how hard is that to
screw up? With feet flat on the floor, the airplane wanted to severely yaw
left on the first flight. It had ZERO directional stability! It would enter it's
own flat turn with me nearly thrown out the side and wind blasting in. So,
on the second flight we bent the large rudder trim tab to try to compensate. I
believe that I got it to near neutral but with any bump from turbulence it would
yaw either direction and maintain an extreme yaw angle until kicked out. Ailerons
alone would not turn the plane to the left. To the right was marginal.
I could go on but to each his own. I know that he Challenger is a popular plane
and many here have flown and loved them. But, after getting in my Kolb and flying
off in a steel cage, aircraft grade control system, and no trim tabs, I just
don't see any real comparison to such a "successful" design.
At 500 feet and 55 mph I thought "thank you, Homer!"
--------
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re:side slip in a KOLB |
At 10:36 PM 7/28/2008, ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote:
>I have not flown a Ultrastar but try more aileron input with opposite
>rudder more down elevator and you should get more effect with your slip
When you're at full rudder in a stable slip any more aileron simply rolls
the plane, and elevator makes it dive. Without side area you simply pick
up speed instead of drag making you sink at a greater angle. Remember, the
US has no fuselage, no pod at all.
-Dana
--
Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance? |
Dana,
Don't forget the reduced effective wing area in a slip, along with
partial wing 'blanking' during the maneuver. Both work to hasten the
descent. Lump in the inaccurate airspeed indication, and it becomes
challenging in a hurry.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Hague" <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Weight and Balance?
>
> At 10:23 PM 7/26/2008, Russ RKIPhoto wrote:
>
>>IMHO sideslipping is a valuable maneuvre (note correct spelling) in
>>any kind of aircraft, but I admit to no experience in a Kolb.
>>Little side area should make her slip and descend even better than most.
>
> Russ, a slip makes an aircraft descend faster due to the increase in drag
> due to the relative wind impinging on the fuselage side. Little side area
> means little added drag means little effect on descent.
>
> -Dana
> --
> The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
>
>
>
Message 20
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Given the report on Ellerys test results on VG's, your my statement about Ellery
was right on the money. When I said Ellery was not a good enough pilot to
recognize the improvements, I was correct. Anyone that makes a statement like
Ellery did after the 18 minute test flight described definitely has a lot to
learn about flying. I have never claimed to have all the answers, but I when
I do write something here on the list, you can bet that I have checked my facts
and what I post is good information. When Ellery posted bad information about
VG's, that is contrary to my own experience, and what many others have reported
here on the list, it was very obvious that something was wrong.
Most of these little pissing matches here are due to some small people that can
not handle being told they are wrong in public. Ellery on VG's , PlaneCrazzy
on electric trim, and others as well that have become vindictive because I
pointed out in public they were wrong. Ellery complained about me, and then in
the next sentence posts something far worse than I have ever posted here on
the list, I am sure most people will recognize hypocrisy when they see it.
I don't care about the little cliques here on the list, or who likes who.. This
list is about posting good and accurate information to those that need it.
If I see someone is so irresponsible as to post bad information that is a disservice
to other pilots, I will point it out every time.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195500#195500
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