Kolb-List Digest Archive

Thu 08/07/08


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:09 AM - Re: Absolutely the easiest way to refuel (henry.voris)
     2. 02:12 AM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (Dave Bigelow)
     3. 04:01 AM - Re: Bomb loads (pj.ladd)
     4. 07:16 AM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (VICTOR PETERS)
     5. 09:48 AM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (Michael Sharp)
     6. 01:29 PM - Aircraft Drag Componts (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
     7. 02:48 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (robert bean)
     8. 03:08 PM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (VICTOR PETERS)
     9. 03:29 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (Dana Hague)
    10. 04:09 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (possums)
    11. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (ross richardson)
    12. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (possums)
    13. 07:24 PM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (JetPilot)
    14. 07:27 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (JetPilot)
    15. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (possums)
    16. 09:51 PM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (boyd)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:09:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Absolutely the easiest way to refuel
    From: "henry.voris" <henry_voris@yahoo.com>
    06aug08 Possums, Thanks for the great Video... Yours are the best. I know it would have been a lot of work, but a puff of feathers and a smoke trail from the falling duck would be a nice touch... I posted a message of support at the video site. Aloha, Henry FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197073#197073


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:12:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing
    From: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
    I see identical performance in my Firestar at 645 lb gross with Landshorter VG's installed as recommended. Wish I had done before and after videos, but didn't. Besides the drop of 6-8 mph in stall speed, the thing I like best is that the plane flies rock solid with really good control right down to the break. Also, it floats much better in ground effect during landing flare. Before VG's, stall was kind of indeterminate somewhere just below 40 mph. The plane was very sloppy and had pretty mushy control response below 40 mph. It flys OK without the VG's but much better with them. The only down side I can see is that it cruises 2-3 mph slower with the same power setting as before VG installation. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197076#197076


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:01:31 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Bomb loads
    Not John, but Brother Jim.>> Whoops! Sorry about that. Pat


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:16:33 AM PST US
    From: "VICTOR PETERS" <vicsv@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: best Kolb (Air Bags)
    EX Wives would work just fine Vic Maine N740VP Ted, I am interested in the air bags you are using to trailer your Kolb wings. Could you please tell us in detail what kind of bags you use and where you got them from . Also how you go about using them.Do You completely remove the wings or not? Ed Diebel FF# 62 Do not archive


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:48:02 AM PST US
    From: Michael Sharp <kolbdriver@mlsharp.com>
    Subject: Re: best Kolb (Air Bags)
    I have 3 of those! Mike Mark III C Oak Grove Mo Do not archive VICTOR PETERS <vicsv@verizon.net> wrote: EX Wives would work just fine Vic Maine N740VP Ted, I am interested in the air bags you are using to trailer your Kolb wings. Could you please tell us in detail what kind of bags you use and where you got them from . Also how you go about using them.Do You completely remove the wings or not? Ed Diebel FF# 62 Do not archive


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:29:23 PM PST US
    From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
    Subject: Aircraft Drag Componts
    I attended a presentation of "Light Airplane Drag Reduction by Barnaby Wainfan at Oshkosh. Barnaby did the Kolb Xtra fuselage design. The following chart was shown: Drag Horsepower of common Aircraft Components 150Knots 200Knots 500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 2.5HP 5.8HP Rotary Beacon Light............. 2.1HP 5.0HP 2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 1.5HP 3.5HP 7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 1.3HP 3.1HP Tip Strobe (each).................. .8HP 1.8HP 1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 1.7HP 3.9HP 1 in tube (1 foot).................... 2.8HP 6.6HP Rivets (round head: 100)....... .4HP .9HP Bolts (AN3:10)....................... .2HP .5HP Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... .05HP .12HP The real eye opener is the 1/4 inch wire. Also our gear legs are shorter than most other planes but he said that frequently people will put wheel pants on the wheel and not the gear legs. The gear legs will often have more drag than the wheels. A very interesting presentation. I asked him why VG aren't very very dragey. He said that VGs reattach airflow over a wing which off sets some of the drag of the VGs. He also said that the airplanes that use them are normally so aerodynamically dirty that the extra drag isn't noticeable. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:48:19 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Aircraft Drag Componts
    Rick, thanks for the numbers. That reinforces my belief that streamlining the gear legs is more efficient than wheel pants (spats). -also lighter and simpler although not as sexy. All those pipes hanging out above and behind our gas tanks sure slow us down too. I have considered a small external foil at the aft door opening to get the air around that point . BB On 7, Aug 2008, at 4:28 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > I attended a presentation of "Light Airplane Drag Reduction by > Barnaby Wainfan at Oshkosh. Barnaby did the Kolb Xtra fuselage > design. The following chart was shown: > > Drag Horsepower of common Aircraft Components > > > 150Knots 200Knots > > 500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 2.5HP 5.8HP > Rotary Beacon Light............. 2.1HP 5.0HP > 2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 1.5HP 3.5HP > 7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 1.3HP 3.1HP > Tip Strobe (each).................. .8HP 1.8HP > 1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 1.7HP 3.9HP > 1 in tube (1 foot).................... 2.8HP 6.6HP > Rivets (round head: 100)....... .4HP .9HP > Bolts (AN3:10)....................... .2HP .5HP > Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... .05HP .12HP > > The real eye opener is the 1/4 inch wire. Also our gear legs are > shorter than most other planes but he said that frequently people > will put wheel pants on the wheel and not the gear legs. The gear > legs will often have more drag than the wheels. A very interesting > presentation. > > I asked him why VG aren't very very dragey. He said that VGs > reattach airflow over a wing which off sets some of the drag of the > VGs. He also said that the airplanes that use them are normally so > aerodynamically dirty that the extra drag isn't noticeable. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:08:15 PM PST US
    From: "VICTOR PETERS" <vicsv@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: best Kolb (Air Bags)
    I also Have 3, No wings! That makes 6 he could use on a Kolb Mike I have 3 of those! Mark III C Oak Grove Mo Do not archive VICTOR PETERS <vicsv@verizon.net> wrote: EX Wives would work just fine Vic Maine N740VP Ted, I am interested in the air bags you are using to trailer your Kolb wings. Could you please tell us in detail what kind of bags you use and where you got them from . Also how you go about using them.Do You completely remove the wings or not?


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:29:02 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Aircraft Drag Componts
    To put it in perspective, remember that the drag HP varies as the cube of the airspeed. Thus, at 100 kts, multiply the 150 kt numbers by 0.3. At 75 kts, multiply by 0.125 At 50 kts, multiply by 0.04. 50 kts75 kts100 kts150 kts200 kts 500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 0.0930.3130.7412.55.8 Rotary Beacon Light............. 0.0780.2630.6222.15.0 2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 0.0560.1880.4441.53.5 7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 0.0480.1630.3851.33.1 Tip Strobe (each).................. 0.0300.1000.2370.81.8 1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 0.0630.2130.5041.73.9 1 in tube (1 foot).................... 0.1040.3500.8302.86.6 Rivets (round head: 100)....... 0.0150.0500.1190.40.9 Bolts (AN3:10)....................... 0.0070.0250.0590.20.5 Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... 0.0020.0060.0150.10.1 -Dana At 04:28 PM 8/7/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >I attended a presentation of "Light Airplane Drag Reduction by Barnaby >Wainfan at Oshkosh. Barnaby did the Kolb Xtra fuselage design. The >following chart was shown: > >Drag Horsepower of common Aircraft Components > > 150Knots > 200Knots > >500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 2.5HP 5.8HP >Rotary Beacon Light............. 2.1HP 5.0HP >2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 1.5HP 3.5HP >7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 1.3HP 3.1HP >Tip Strobe (each).................. .8HP 1.8HP >1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 1.7HP 3.9HP >1 in tube (1 foot).................... 2.8HP 6.6HP >Rivets (round head: 100)....... .4HP .9HP >Bolts (AN3:10)....................... .2HP .5HP >Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... .05HP .12HP > -- The dinosours died because they didn't have a space program!


    Message 10


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    Time: 04:09:13 PM PST US
    From: possums <possums@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Aircraft Drag Componts
    At 06:24 PM 8/7/2008, you wrote: >To put it in perspective, remember that the drag HP varies as the >cube of the airspeed. I think the most bang for your buck is going to be the lift struts. I could tell at least 4 to 6 mph top end with my old 447 Firestar. I did the landing gear later and didn't really notice any difference, but it looked neat. Those original little landing gear looked kind of goofy.


    Message 11


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    Time: 05:02:01 PM PST US
    From: ross richardson <smlplanet@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns,
    Landing I have been reading the comments on the VG's pro & con but I haven't heard any thing as to fuel usage. Have you noticed any differance as to gallons p er hour at curise speeds. Right now on my M III/ul912 in calm air I run 65- 70 mph at 3700 rpm 80 mph at 4000-4200 rpm with out any VG's. I am hoping t o fly up to the Kolb fly-in ( approx 800 mi ) in Sept. and looking to cut f uel intake and more air time between pit stops. Where is that video I hear them talking about with the VG's? > Subject: K olb-List: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls=2C Slow Flight=2C Turns=2C Landi ng> From: jimoday@hotmail.com> Date: Wed=2C 6 Aug 2008 20:40:01 -0700> To: oday@hotmail.com>> > Nice video you made. > > > I sold my Kolb recently and just found a set of LandShorter VG's that I had purchased last winter duri ng the "Winter" VG debate. I never got around to installing them. > > My $. 02 on the VG's=2C I assume they enhance the performance on the Kolb=2C that is why I ordered them. The plane flew fine w/o but why not make it fly bet ter. I have them on my Cessna 340 and would not fly it w/o them. I had a se t of Micro VG put on Citabria I bought this summer and .... WOW > > I still have been hanging out here watching you guys banter back and forth=2C seem s everyone is dug in hard=2C but what else is new.> > If anyone would like a deal on a set of LandShorter VG's=2C contact me off-list.> > Fly Safe Kol bsters=2C> > Jim> > Jim O'Day - Fargo=2C ND> former FS II owner> > > > > Re ad this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p ==============> > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:12:00 PM PST US
    From: possums <possums@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns,
    Landing At 08:01 PM 8/7/2008, you wrote: >I have been reading the comments on the VG's pro & con but I haven't >heard any thing as to fuel usage. Have you noticed any differance as >to gallons per hour at curise speeds. Right now on my M III/ul912 in >calm air I run 65-70 mph at 3700 rpm 80 mph at 4000-4200 rpm with >out any VG's. I am hoping to fly up to the Kolb fly-in ( approx 800 >mi ) in Sept. and looking to cut fuel intake and more air time >between pit stops. >Where is that video I hear them talking about with the VG's? Here's you some from "LandShorter" http://www.landshorter.com/page10.html I don't think it would affect fuel usage at all, only performance at low speeds. They will not (in theory) affect your cruise speed - if placed properly. I would send you some of me flying at 25 mph in my 400+ pound one-seat 27 ft. wing semi-kolb knock-off (see ....I've had kolbs before, so I can still make comments on the list). Jerk it around, yank it up & down all at stall speed. But I erased them from YouTube and I'm sure you don't want to download a 16 MB file.


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:24:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    Possums, What airplane are you flying now ? Which engine does it have ? How does it compare to the Kolb ? Smlplanet@msn.com Those are very good numbers for cruise in the MK III Classic ! Like Possums says, the VG's wont help you any at cruise, they are for imporving slow speed handling and reducing stall speed. The VG video I shot in my MK III Xtra is at: http://www.vimeo.com/1480667 Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197254#197254


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:27:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Aircraft Drag Componts
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    Those are very interesting numbers Rick. I would have never guessed that the landing gear tube would have more drag than my wheels. I will have to measure the length of my gear legs, but given your numbers I think fairings on the gear legs like I have on my struts might be worthwhile. Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197255#197255


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:05:20 PM PST US
    From: possums <possums@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns,
    Landing At 10:23 PM 8/7/2008, you wrote: > >Possums, > >What airplane are you flying now ? Which engine does it have >? How does it compare to the Kolb ? I wrecked my 447 Firestar back in '97 after 600 hrs. So I had the chance to rebuild it like I wanted. Same wing ribs you've got - just more of them (8) per wing, 4 inch wider cockpit, shorter wings, different wing tips etc. 503 CDI, saved the nosecone & the stick & some hardware. It's heavier, but the VGs more than make up for that. It's basically a kolb except for the back end. I like it better without the windshield when it hot. But it will glide like a poor performance sailplane.


    Message 16


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    Time: 09:51:40 PM PST US
    From: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing
    I have a short video... 8 megs or so I am on dial up so I wont upload it unless I can find a high speed connection.... anyway the video was taken by a passenger, Bob Dalton, at Monument Valley 5192 ft asl at close to max weight and 20 deg flaps. Without Vg's the touchdown speed was 35 indicated. The video was shown the evening it was taken by those in attendance that year.. there was a question of exactly when the wheels touched down, very smooth wheel landing. VG's To each their own. I suppose that if you enjoy flying at stall + 5 mph all day,,, maybe vg's are good.... but for the type of flying I do, I don't require them. Certainly not just for landing. Boyd Young Kolb MKIIIC Rotax 912 537+ hours and counting. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a video of my Kolb MK III Xtra and its performance gain with VG's in Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, and a 43 MPH flare to landing. http://www.vimeo.com/1480667




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