Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:09 AM - Re: Absolutely the easiest way to refuel (henry.voris)
2. 02:12 AM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (Dave Bigelow)
3. 04:01 AM - Re: Bomb loads (pj.ladd)
4. 07:16 AM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (VICTOR PETERS)
5. 09:48 AM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (Michael Sharp)
6. 01:29 PM - Aircraft Drag Componts (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
7. 02:48 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (robert bean)
8. 03:08 PM - Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) (VICTOR PETERS)
9. 03:29 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (Dana Hague)
10. 04:09 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (possums)
11. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (ross richardson)
12. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (possums)
13. 07:24 PM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (JetPilot)
14. 07:27 PM - Re: Aircraft Drag Componts (JetPilot)
15. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (possums)
16. 09:51 PM - Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing (boyd)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Absolutely the easiest way to refuel |
06aug08
Possums,
Thanks for the great Video... Yours are the best. I know it would have been
a lot of work, but a puff of feathers and a smoke trail from the falling duck
would be a nice touch...
I posted a message of support at the video site.
Aloha,
Henry
FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197073#197073
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing |
I see identical performance in my Firestar at 645 lb gross with Landshorter VG's
installed as recommended. Wish I had done before and after videos, but didn't.
Besides the drop of 6-8 mph in stall speed, the thing I like best is that the plane
flies rock solid with really good control right down to the break. Also,
it floats much better in ground effect during landing flare.
Before VG's, stall was kind of indeterminate somewhere just below 40 mph. The
plane was very sloppy and had pretty mushy control response below 40 mph. It
flys OK without the VG's but much better with them. The only down side I can
see is that it cruises 2-3 mph slower with the same power setting as before VG
installation.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197076#197076
Message 3
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Not John, but Brother Jim.>>
Whoops! Sorry about that.
Pat
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) |
EX Wives would work just fine
Vic
Maine
N740VP
Ted,
I am interested in the air bags you are using to trailer your Kolb
wings. Could you please tell us in detail what kind of bags you use and
where you got them from . Also how you go about using them.Do You
completely remove the wings or not?
Ed Diebel FF# 62 Do not archive
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) |
I have 3 of those!
Mike
Mark III C
Oak Grove Mo
Do not archive
VICTOR PETERS <vicsv@verizon.net> wrote:
EX Wives would work just fine
Vic
Maine
N740VP
Ted,
I am interested in the air bags you are using to trailer your Kolb wings.
Could you please tell us in detail what kind of bags you use and where you got
them from . Also how you go about using them.Do You completely remove the wings
or not?
Ed Diebel FF# 62 Do not archive
Message 6
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Subject: | Aircraft Drag Componts |
I attended a presentation of "Light Airplane Drag Reduction by Barnaby
Wainfan at Oshkosh. Barnaby did the Kolb Xtra fuselage design. The
following chart was shown:
Drag Horsepower of common Aircraft Components
150Knots
200Knots
500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 2.5HP 5.8HP
Rotary Beacon Light............. 2.1HP 5.0HP
2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 1.5HP 3.5HP
7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 1.3HP 3.1HP
Tip Strobe (each).................. .8HP 1.8HP
1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 1.7HP 3.9HP
1 in tube (1 foot).................... 2.8HP 6.6HP
Rivets (round head: 100)....... .4HP .9HP
Bolts (AN3:10)....................... .2HP .5HP
Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... .05HP .12HP
The real eye opener is the 1/4 inch wire. Also our gear legs are shorter
than most other planes but he said that frequently people will put wheel
pants on the wheel and not the gear legs. The gear legs will often have
more drag than the wheels. A very interesting presentation.
I asked him why VG aren't very very dragey. He said that VGs reattach
airflow over a wing which off sets some of the drag of the VGs. He also
said that the airplanes that use them are normally so aerodynamically
dirty that the extra drag isn't noticeable.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Aircraft Drag Componts |
Rick, thanks for the numbers. That reinforces my belief that
streamlining the gear legs is more
efficient than wheel pants (spats). -also lighter and simpler
although not as sexy.
All those pipes hanging out above and behind our gas tanks sure slow
us down too.
I have considered a small external foil at the aft door opening to
get the air around that point .
BB
On 7, Aug 2008, at 4:28 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
> I attended a presentation of "Light Airplane Drag Reduction by
> Barnaby Wainfan at Oshkosh. Barnaby did the Kolb Xtra fuselage
> design. The following chart was shown:
>
> Drag Horsepower of common Aircraft Components
>
>
> 150Knots 200Knots
>
> 500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 2.5HP 5.8HP
> Rotary Beacon Light............. 2.1HP 5.0HP
> 2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 1.5HP 3.5HP
> 7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 1.3HP 3.1HP
> Tip Strobe (each).................. .8HP 1.8HP
> 1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 1.7HP 3.9HP
> 1 in tube (1 foot).................... 2.8HP 6.6HP
> Rivets (round head: 100)....... .4HP .9HP
> Bolts (AN3:10)....................... .2HP .5HP
> Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... .05HP .12HP
>
> The real eye opener is the 1/4 inch wire. Also our gear legs are
> shorter than most other planes but he said that frequently people
> will put wheel pants on the wheel and not the gear legs. The gear
> legs will often have more drag than the wheels. A very interesting
> presentation.
>
> I asked him why VG aren't very very dragey. He said that VGs
> reattach airflow over a wing which off sets some of the drag of the
> VGs. He also said that the airplanes that use them are normally so
> aerodynamically dirty that the extra drag isn't noticeable.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: best Kolb (Air Bags) |
I also Have 3, No wings!
That makes 6 he could use on a Kolb
Mike I have 3 of those!
Mark III C
Oak Grove Mo
Do not archive
VICTOR PETERS <vicsv@verizon.net> wrote:
EX Wives would work just fine
Vic
Maine
N740VP
Ted,
I am interested in the air bags you are using to trailer your Kolb
wings. Could you please tell us in detail what kind of bags you use and
where you got them from . Also how you go about using them.Do You
completely remove the wings or not?
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Aircraft Drag Componts |
To put it in perspective, remember that the drag HP varies as the cube of
the airspeed. Thus, at 100 kts, multiply the 150 kt numbers by 0.3. At 75
kts, multiply by 0.125 At 50 kts, multiply by 0.04.
50 kts75 kts100 kts150 kts200 kts
500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 0.0930.3130.7412.55.8
Rotary Beacon Light............. 0.0780.2630.6222.15.0
2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 0.0560.1880.4441.53.5
7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 0.0480.1630.3851.33.1
Tip Strobe (each).................. 0.0300.1000.2370.81.8
1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 0.0630.2130.5041.73.9
1 in tube (1 foot).................... 0.1040.3500.8302.86.6
Rivets (round head: 100)....... 0.0150.0500.1190.40.9
Bolts (AN3:10)....................... 0.0070.0250.0590.20.5
Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... 0.0020.0060.0150.10.1
-Dana
At 04:28 PM 8/7/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
>I attended a presentation of "Light Airplane Drag Reduction by Barnaby
>Wainfan at Oshkosh. Barnaby did the Kolb Xtra fuselage design. The
>following chart was shown:
>
>Drag Horsepower of common Aircraft Components
>
> 150Knots
> 200Knots
>
>500 x 5 wheel/tire.................. 2.5HP 5.8HP
>Rotary Beacon Light............. 2.1HP 5.0HP
>2in. exhaust (6 inch long)..... 1.5HP 3.5HP
>7/8" spring gear leg (1 foot) 1.3HP 3.1HP
>Tip Strobe (each).................. .8HP 1.8HP
>1/4in wire (1 foot).................. 1.7HP 3.9HP
>1 in tube (1 foot).................... 2.8HP 6.6HP
>Rivets (round head: 100)....... .4HP .9HP
>Bolts (AN3:10)....................... .2HP .5HP
>Rivets (flat protruding: 100)... .05HP .12HP
>
--
The dinosours died because they didn't have a space program!
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Aircraft Drag Componts |
At 06:24 PM 8/7/2008, you wrote:
>To put it in perspective, remember that the drag HP varies as the
>cube of the airspeed.
I think the most bang for your buck is going to be the lift struts.
I could tell at least 4 to 6 mph top end with my old 447 Firestar.
I did the landing gear later and didn't really notice any difference, but
it looked neat. Those original little landing gear looked kind of goofy.
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, |
Landing
I have been reading the comments on the VG's pro & con but I haven't heard
any thing as to fuel usage. Have you noticed any differance as to gallons p
er hour at curise speeds. Right now on my M III/ul912 in calm air I run 65-
70 mph at 3700 rpm 80 mph at 4000-4200 rpm with out any VG's. I am hoping t
o fly up to the Kolb fly-in ( approx 800 mi ) in Sept. and looking to cut f
uel intake and more air time between pit stops.
Where is that video I hear them talking about with the VG's? > Subject: K
olb-List: Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls=2C Slow Flight=2C Turns=2C Landi
ng> From: jimoday@hotmail.com> Date: Wed=2C 6 Aug 2008 20:40:01 -0700> To:
oday@hotmail.com>> > Nice video you made. > > > I sold my Kolb recently and
just found a set of LandShorter VG's that I had purchased last winter duri
ng the "Winter" VG debate. I never got around to installing them. > > My $.
02 on the VG's=2C I assume they enhance the performance on the Kolb=2C that
is why I ordered them. The plane flew fine w/o but why not make it fly bet
ter. I have them on my Cessna 340 and would not fly it w/o them. I had a se
t of Micro VG put on Citabria I bought this summer and .... WOW > > I still
have been hanging out here watching you guys banter back and forth=2C seem
s everyone is dug in hard=2C but what else is new.> > If anyone would like
a deal on a set of LandShorter VG's=2C contact me off-list.> > Fly Safe Kol
bsters=2C> > Jim> > Jim O'Day - Fargo=2C ND> former FS II owner> > > > > Re
ad this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
==============> > >
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, |
Landing
At 08:01 PM 8/7/2008, you wrote:
>I have been reading the comments on the VG's pro & con but I haven't
>heard any thing as to fuel usage. Have you noticed any differance as
>to gallons per hour at curise speeds. Right now on my M III/ul912 in
>calm air I run 65-70 mph at 3700 rpm 80 mph at 4000-4200 rpm with
>out any VG's. I am hoping to fly up to the Kolb fly-in ( approx 800
>mi ) in Sept. and looking to cut fuel intake and more air time
>between pit stops.
>Where is that video I hear them talking about with the VG's?
Here's you some from "LandShorter"
http://www.landshorter.com/page10.html
I don't think it would affect fuel usage at all, only performance at
low speeds.
They will not (in theory) affect your cruise speed - if placed properly.
I would send you some of me flying at 25 mph in my 400+ pound
one-seat 27 ft. wing semi-kolb knock-off (see ....I've had kolbs
before, so I can
still make comments on the list). Jerk it around, yank it up & down
all at stall speed.
But I erased them from YouTube and I'm sure you don't want to download
a 16 MB file.
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing |
Possums,
What airplane are you flying now ? Which engine does it have ? How does it compare
to the Kolb ?
Smlplanet@msn.com
Those are very good numbers for cruise in the MK III Classic ! Like Possums says,
the VG's wont help you any at cruise, they are for imporving slow speed
handling and reducing stall speed. The VG video I shot in my MK III Xtra is at:
http://www.vimeo.com/1480667
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197254#197254
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Aircraft Drag Componts |
Those are very interesting numbers Rick. I would have never guessed that the landing
gear tube would have more drag than my wheels. I will have to measure
the length of my gear legs, but given your numbers I think fairings on the gear
legs like I have on my struts might be worthwhile.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197255#197255
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, |
Landing
At 10:23 PM 8/7/2008, you wrote:
>
>Possums,
>
>What airplane are you flying now ? Which engine does it have
>? How does it compare to the Kolb ?
I wrecked my 447 Firestar back in '97 after 600 hrs. So I had the
chance to rebuild it like I wanted.
Same wing ribs you've got - just more of them (8) per wing, 4 inch
wider cockpit, shorter wings, different wing tips etc.
503 CDI, saved the nosecone & the stick & some hardware. It's heavier, but the
VGs more than make up for that. It's basically a kolb except for the back end.
I like it better without the windshield when it hot. But it will
glide like a poor performance sailplane.
Message 16
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Subject: | VG Performance Video: Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, Landing |
I have a short video... 8 megs or so I am on dial up so I wont upload it
unless I can find a high speed connection.... anyway the video was taken by
a passenger, Bob Dalton, at Monument Valley 5192 ft asl at close to max
weight and 20 deg flaps. Without Vg's the touchdown speed was 35 indicated.
The video was shown the evening it was taken by those in attendance that
year.. there was a question of exactly when the wheels touched down, very
smooth wheel landing. VG's To each their own.
I suppose that if you enjoy flying at stall + 5 mph all day,,, maybe vg's
are good.... but for the type of flying I do, I don't require them.
Certainly not just for landing.
Boyd Young
Kolb MKIIIC
Rotax 912 537+ hours and counting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is a video of my Kolb MK III Xtra and its performance gain with VG's in
Stalls, Slow Flight, Turns, and a 43 MPH flare to landing.
http://www.vimeo.com/1480667
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